Is live feeding really that bad?

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Originally Posted by frostysBP

Why would she need protective gear she feeds both live and f/t and gave a educated opinion. ..you my friend have not

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I'm a He :gj:. Thanks though! I understood what Zincubus meant :gj:. It's one of those topics that will never be resolved one way or the other. Some people really get bent out of shape when you don't do things the way they do them, even if either way works :confuzd:.

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Originally Posted by se7en

ice cream. cone or cup? discuss.

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how about this?

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/07..._2048x2048.jpg

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Originally Posted by frostysBP

Why would she need protective gear she feeds both live and f/t and gave a educated opinion. ..you my friend have not

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Originally Posted by h00blah

I'm a He :gj:. Thanks though! I understood what Zincubus meant :gj:. It's one of those topics that will never be resolved one way or the other. Some people really get bent out of shape when you don't do things the way they do them, even if either way works :confuzd:.

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h00blah does have long flowing hair tho, so it might be easy to confuse. lol ;)

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Originally Posted by ax01

how about this?

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/07..._2048x2048.jpg

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:o :o :o

LMAO @ the ratsicle!! The legs look like drumsticks... you just gave me a great idea on what to give the puppies for a Thanksgiving treat! X3

remember pizza rat making the news a week back?

well, before that there was ice cream rat.

http://gifs.gifbin.com/102011/revers...hole_cover.gif

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Originally Posted by Ax01

h00blah does have long flowing hair tho, so it might be easy to confuse. lol ;)

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Wrong again!! I chopped it off :please:...
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/...psfolstet8.jpg

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Originally Posted by h00blah

Wrong again!! I chopped it off :please:...

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But you gots some sexxxy snakes. :cool::gj::gj:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

With all due respect their prey are not always fighting for their lives in an extremely confined space ....

I could probably survive ok if Mike Tyson was chasing me around a soccer stadium but if we were stuck together in a small room he'd rip my head off .

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This is less about the "debate" than it is the quote. The quote seems to lead folks to believe a "confined" cage area is vastly different from the typical situation in the wild and is somehow unfair to the prey.

Outside of the obvious differences, the prey is doomed in the wild just as it is in the caged environment. If the snake is hungry and prey presents itself, it is a done deal.

Snakes don't set themselves up to fail. The term "Ambush predator" means just that. The prey has almost zero chance of escape once the snake has launched the attack. How often have you seen captive, live prey break away from the coils and make a run for it? It doesn't happen in a cage, and it doesn't happen in the wild.

The royal python actually thrives in "confined spaces". The rodent burrows they inhabit used to have occupants prior to their arrival. What do you think may have happened there?

With few exceptions, snakes ambush in rather confined areas and will sit and wait motionless for weeks sometimes months until they succeed.

Their periods of famine are not due to failure of the hunt, but rather lack of prey in their proximity.

The Mike Tyson analogy doesn't apply here.

To be fair, I feed live and F/T. I have had close calls with live, but nothing serious. I also empathize a bit with the prey, however, the act of constriction is a fairly quick way to dispatch a food item. There are some awful and slow examples, but in my experience the prey is dead in under 2 minutes and a lot of the twitches are nerves and the process of the body shutting down AFTER the animal has passed out.

I don't have a problem with either method and think folks should do what works best for their situation.

My point here is that prey is prey whether it is in the wild or in a cage. The minute captive feeders are born, they are destined to serve as food.

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Originally Posted by Gio

This is less about the "debate" than it is the quote. The quote seems to lead folks to believe a "confined" cage area is vastly different from the typical situation in the wild and is somehow unfair to the prey.

Outside of the obvious differences, the prey is doomed in the wild just as it is in the caged environment. If the snake is hungry and prey presents itself, it is a done deal.

Snakes don't set themselves up to fail. The term "Ambush predator" means just that. The prey has almost zero chance of escape once the snake has launched the attack. How often have you seen captive, live prey break away from the coils and make a run for it? It doesn't happen in a cage, and it doesn't happen in the wild.

The royal python actually thrives in "confined spaces". The rodent burrows they inhabit used to have occupants prior to their arrival. What do you think may have happened there?

With few exceptions, snakes ambush in rather confined areas and will sit and wait motionless for weeks sometimes months until they succeed.

Their periods of famine are not due to failure of the hunt, but rather lack of prey in their proximity.

The Mike Tyson analogy doesn't apply here.

To be fair, I feed live and F/T. I have had close calls with live, but nothing serious. I also empathize a bit with the prey, however, the act of constriction is a fairly quick way to dispatch a food item. There are some awful and slow examples, but in my experience the prey is dead in under 2 minutes and a lot of the twitches are nerves and the process of the body shutting down AFTER the animal has passed out.

I don't have a problem with either method and think folks should do what works best for their situation.

My point here is that prey is prey whether it is in the wild or in a cage. The minute captive feeders are born, they are destined to serve as food.

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Nice , balanced viewpoint .

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Nice , balanced viewpoint .

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You seem like a nice person.

Stay on the course with what works best for you and your pets.

Have a safe weekend!

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Originally Posted by Ax01

remember pizza rat making the news a week back?

well, before that there was ice cream rat.

http://gifs.gifbin.com/102011/revers...hole_cover.gif

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waffle cones are tasty, but i prefer cup, as it's less messy. i'm often on the move, so i'm always driving somewhere.

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Originally Posted by se7en

waffle cones are tasty, but i prefer cup, as it's less messy. i'm often on the move, so i'm always driving somewhere.

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The thread title refers to LIVE feeding not DRIVE feeding ;)

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Originally Posted by zincubus

the thread title refers to live feeding not drive feeding ;)

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:d:d:d

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Originally Posted by se7en

waffle cones are tasty, but i prefer cup, as it's less messy. i'm often on the move, so i'm always driving somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

The thread title refers to LIVE feeding not DRIVE feeding ;)

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oh ok, I thought for awhile there that this thread was about h00blah and his hair. :P ;)

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Originally Posted by Reinz

:d:d:d

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What does :d mean incidentally ??

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Originally Posted by Ax01

how about this?

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/07..._2048x2048.jpg






h00blah does have long flowing hair tho, so it might be easy to confuse. lol ;)

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I have to point out that a ratsicle with a stick is just silly. What do you think the tail is for? Built in all organic natural handle, of course.

Personally I would prefer to feed live, but that's not possible for me as it's hard to get live rodents in Ireland unless you breed your own.

When you feed live, you know the food is fresh and hasn't been sitting in a freezer for weeks.

I think every snake owner should be prepared to feed live if the snakes life depends on it,
Live feeding should always be supervised.


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Originally Posted by Jamiesniper

Personally I would prefer to feed live, but that's not possible for me as it's hard to get live rodents in Ireland unless you breed your own.

When you feed live, you know the food is fresh and hasn't been sitting in a freezer for weeks.

I think every snake owner should be prepared to feed live if the snakes life depends on it,
Live feeding should always be supervised.


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That said I wouldn't keep snakes if they were LIVE feeders as I just couldn't do it .

The funny thing is over all the years I've been keeping snakes of all types including Cape File snakes , Boas , Burms , Kings , Milks , Garters , Rhino Ratsnakes , Bamboo Ratsnakes , Corns and over thirty Royals ....... I've never had one single snake that wouldn't take defrosted frozen mice / rats so I'm puzzled as to why there are apparently so many snakes out there who simply HAVE to eat LIVE food .

Just to be clear here .. .. I'm not judging anyone just expressing a view .

Maybe I'm the only one, but I find it way nastier to thaw out dead bodies and heat them up rather than just let nature take place. One is like watching the discovery channel while the other is like working in the morgue.

I keep mostly Corn Snakes. Just starting out with Balls. Or.. a ball I should say.

I have much more experience feeding f/t than live. I have done both. My corns eat f/t easily and honestly.. it's convenient and cheap.

Not opposed to feeding live though. Would never feed wild caught rodents, that's my exception. Perfectly fine with healthy bred feeders though. I just got a BP and he is in his settling in period. When I do attempt to feed him I will feed live because I know that's what he's experienced before. If he switches to f/t great. If not.. live it will be.

The most important part for me is that the feeders are healthy and consistent. I'm lucky that there's a local shop I can go to who breed their own mice (I don't prefer to do it myself, rodents are.. well.. gross). I know that they are fed well and nutritiously. I know roughly how many grams the mice will be. I know they will be consistent. THAT to me is more important than live vs. f/t.

Also, from what you guys are describing, sounds like snakes may well injure themselves/ their partners with "love bites" more during mating than live feeding! :O ;)

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

That said I wouldn't keep snakes if they were LIVE feeders as I just couldn't do it .

The funny thing is over all the years I've been keeping snakes of all types including Cape File snakes , Boas , Burms , Kings , Milks , Garters , Rhino Ratsnakes , Bamboo Ratsnakes , Corns and over thirty Royals ....... I've never had one single snake that wouldn't take defrosted frozen mice / rats so I'm puzzled as to why there are apparently so many snakes out there who simply HAVE to eat LIVE food .

Just to be clear here .. .. I'm not judging anyone just expressing a view .

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Your "over all the years" experience isn't even a drop in a bucket in the grand scheme. Most of the snakes you listed would eat a scented stone if you threw it at them so that doesn't much help either.

Let's go hypothetical and say that I decided to agree with you that every snake can eventually be coaxed to willingly feed on f/t prey. How long can we ethically wait before resorting to assist feeding? Why don't you feel obligated to exhaust all methods of food presentation, including live, as a responsible owner who has decided to keep these animals? You're keeping snakes as pets - for the most part, animals that don't slither around scavenging meals. Sure, some species will jump on f/t right out of the gate, but not all. Is this really a more ethical solution than feeding a live rodent? What about for the snake? Shouldn't they be offered the courtesy of a full stomach without us starving them out first or heaping stress on them by shoving something, unwanted, into their gullet?

i feel you on the whole WILD talk, because snakes aren't fed frozen/thawed food in the wild, so LIVE prey all day for my babies.. Gives them that whole im still in AFRICA type feel and not in a container know what i'm saying?...that's just me though..

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Originally Posted by ECechoHO

i feel you on the whole WILD talk, because snakes aren't fed frozen/thawed food in the wild, so LIVE prey all day for my babies.. Gives them that whole im still in AFRICA type feel and not in a container know what i'm saying?...that's just me though..

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Kind of missed my point, ECechoHO - surely my fault posting so late on a week night without my wits about me. Plenty of snakes in the wild go for inanimate prey so long as it smells like food. I just feel like if we're going to be responsible for these critters in captivity we should, at a minimum, offer the serpent equivalent of 3 hots and a cot. That means setting aside your distaste and feeding live when you have to - even if it's just until you can convert an animal to f/t without putting them through the wringer first. I think this thread is a pretty good testament that feeding live, responsibly, is safe for the snake and not the horror show it's sometimes made to be for the prey.

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Originally Posted by John1982

Your "over all the years" experience isn't even a drop in a bucket in the grand scheme. Most of the snakes you listed would eat a scented stone if you threw it at them so that doesn't much help either.

Let's go hypothetical and say that I decided to agree with you that every snake can eventually be coaxed to willingly feed on f/t prey. How long can we ethically wait before resorting to assist feeding? Why don't you feel obligated to exhaust all methods of food presentation, including live, as a responsible owner who has decided to keep these animals? You're keeping snakes as pets - for the most part, animals that don't slither around scavenging meals. Sure, some species will jump on f/t right out of the gate, but not all. Is this really a more ethical solution than feeding a live rodent? What about for the snake? Shouldn't they be offered the courtesy of a full stomach without us starving them out first or heaping stress on them by shoving something, unwanted, into their gullet?

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You've conveniently disregarded the part where I mentioned I've kept over 30 Royals / Balls who are notoriously fussy / poor feeders and they've all taken defrosted frozen with no issues whatsoever ..... Yet so many in here seemingly haven't been quite so lucky .... I've never even got close to considering assist or force feeding .

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Originally Posted by ECechoHO

i feel you on the whole WILD talk, because snakes aren't fed frozen/thawed food in the wild, so LIVE prey all day for my babies.. Gives them that whole im still in AFRICA type feel and not in a container know what i'm saying?...that's just me though..

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That said .... live feeding was previously described a few days ( in this very thread ) as though the rodent usually finds a quiet corner and falls asleep and then the snake attacks ..... so why not simply warm up a defrosted rodent and leave it in a corner ( like I do very successfully ) .

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

You've conveniently disregarded the part where I mentioned I've kept over 30 Royals / Balls who are notoriously fussy / poor feeders and they've all taken defrosted frozen with no issues whatsoever ..... Yet so many in here seemingly haven't been quite so lucky .... I've never even got close to considering assist or force feeding .

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I did not disregard anything, your experience is still minuscule when compared to the whole. You said yourself that you would not keep snakes if they were live feeders so your "data" is already skewed. How many of your 30 plus royals were feeding on live when you acquired them? Just trying to get a feel for your experience in converting. Your source(s) on serpent slaying rodents and rodent torturing serpents has me doubting you at times - sorry.

I'm personally in the process of switching my older regius over to f/t - just on their own terms, not mine. I usually get anywhere from 25-50% of hatchlings to take f/t on their first meal without a hassle. The rest get live and most of those are pretty easy switches after just a few feedings. The ones who really want nothing to do with f/t can often be switched shortly after breaking their puberty fast or after their first breeding season fast for some stingier animals. I'm not switching them because I'm scared for the safety of my snakes or the well being of my rodents. It's simply a personal choice at this point in my life - mainly due to me phasing down on royals as my projects come closer to fruition.

Personally, I do f/t because I don't have to worry if the snake won't eat the food(about taking care of another live animal). Plus, many times they pee/poo during the constriction and it grosses me out. I know compared to other things it's petty, but it's true. I'd still do it if I had to, it just weirds me out

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Originally Posted by John1982

I did not disregard anything, your experience is still minuscule when compared to the whole. You said yourself that you would not keep snakes if they were live feeders so your "data" is already skewed. How many of your 30 plus royals were feeding on live when you acquired them? Just trying to get a feel for your experience in converting. Your source(s) on serpent slaying rodents and rodent torturing serpents has me doubting you at times - sorry.

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I have never claimed to have ever converted a snake from LIVE to d/f frozen to be fair .

In the UK the norm is feeding d/f frozen though , of course .

As far as the rodents being relaxed, I watch all my snakes for feeding(unless it's a pinkie/crawler) and none of the rodents I fed to my 20 snakes(not counting the pinkie eaters) acted at all distressed until they were constricted. They wandered about, sniffing even at the snakes and bedding and acted curious. A few even stopped and washed their face.

This is unusual in my experience only because my snakes usually hit the rodents immediately but several of them are in heavy shed, so I'm assuming they were a bit slower to strike this time.

I had one snake who missed that I dropped the rodent in and when the rat climbed over one of her coils, she pushed him against the water bin, squishing his neck and pinning him there. Even THEN, he sort of waited and then wriggled his way out, then climbed back over to wander the bin. He did wander back to in front of her face and was struck and constricted.

By tapping near the eye, I can test to see when a rat is conscious. If a rodent is constricted properly(75% of the time), the rat does not respond at all within 3-4 seconds of constriction. A small percentage of time, the rat takes up to 15-20 seconds to stop responding. After this point, a rat may still show twitching, either of tails or legs paddling, which does not mean the brain is conscious(this effect occurs even if you behead the rat). That doesn't mean the rat is conscious and in pain.

This is just my own personal observations. I did think when I watched the rat getting squished and remaining calm that I really wished I had a camera because he just looked vaguely annoyed and patient, instead of paniced or angry.

I had a carpet python that defined the term "Mean as a Snake". She was a vicious little girl and an aggressive feeder. Feeding love was never a problem because the mouse usually died of blunt force trauma before the constructing ever started.
However, the first rat I gave her decided to fight back and scratched up her side. Nothing too bad, but she was so gorgeous I couldn't risk it. (Mike Curtin's famous Scattershot is her brother).
So, after that, I would grab a rat by a leg and a tail and hit it against a doorframe before giving it to the snake. She didn't even notice the difference and the rat stayed warm.

These days, with my ball python, I'm tempted to do the same thing. There's only 1 place here that sells frozen rats and lately they have been freezer burned and don't thaw right. Looks like it's back to the doorframe method for me.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

In the UK the norm is feeding d/f frozen though , of course .

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I understand this and respect everyone's right to choose based on their situation. I think both f/t and live have their merits. Please don't think I'm trying to pick on you either because we might disagree. There are just plenty of pros you can use for encouraging others to choose f/t over live. Why rely on secondhand stories from irresponsible keepers and out of context pictures? Draw on your own experiences to convince folks with your personal positives and drop the fear mongering bit. I feel you'll have a much better chance at picking up some f/t converts this way.

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Originally Posted by John1982

I understand this and respect everyone's right to choose based on their situation. I think both f/t and live have their merits. Please don't think I'm trying to pick on you either because we might disagree. There are just plenty of pros you can use for encouraging others to choose f/t over live. Why rely on secondhand stories from irresponsible keepers and out of context pictures? Draw on your own experiences to convince folks with your personal positives and drop the fear mongering bit. I feel you'll have a much better chance at picking up some f/t converts this way.

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Fair comments bud .. .. I have said many times in this and similar threads that I simply LOVE all living things and that's the main thing stopping me from dropping 'cute as hell' little mice in with my snakes ...... I've mentioned many times how I pick worms / slugs up off pavements / sidewalks when I'm out walking the dog and how my heart sinks when I accidentally stand on a snail in the dark . The crunching noise turns my stomach.

I simply mention the very real threat of damage to the snakes ( as it does undeniably occur ) as a way of hopefully discouraging others.

You're not alone in that. I do the same thing. I even take spiders out of the house and give mice a fighting chance at escape when my cats bring them in.
However, to quote Finding Nemo, "Fish gotta swim...Bird's gotta eat". Or in this case, snake's gotta eat. All it took was one bite from a excrement-covered feeder mouse for me to get over feeling bad for them. They were bred and born to be food, so they are no different than lunch meat.

Then again, my family owns a sausage company. So maybe I've just learned how to be callused when I need to be.

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Originally Posted by sleepymeryl

You're not alone in that. I do the same thing. I even take spiders out of the house and give mice a fighting chance at escape when my cats bring them in.
However, to quote Finding Nemo, "Fish gotta swim...Bird's gotta eat". Or in this case, snake's gotta eat. All it took was one bite from a excrement-covered feeder mouse for me to get over feeling bad for them. They were bred and born to be food, so they are no different than lunch meat.

Then again, my family owns a sausage company. So maybe I've just learned how to be callused when I need to be.

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LOL this reminds me of when I told my fiancee I wanted to breed rats for our collection. She asked how I could do it. My 2 females were accidental pets that were bred as food. I won't form a bond with the babies because my snakes need to eat them and I know that lol

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Originally Posted by SCWood

LOL this reminds me of when I told my fiancee I wanted to breed rats for our collection. She asked how I could do it. My 2 females were accidental pets that were bred as food. I won't form a bond with the babies because my snakes need to eat them and I know that lol

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I sometimes feel bad for the pinkies because they're so helpless and sad looking. Luckily, I haven't needed them very often. When I do though, I just put them in and walk away. They just crawl around hopelessly searching for mom...
I can't watch it.

However, that doesn't change the fact that my snake will starve without its sacrifice and starving to death is a WAY worse way to go imo. So, like all my live feeders, I thank them first. At least their life was comfortable up until that point.

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Originally Posted by sleepymeryl

I sometimes feel bad for the pinkies because they're so helpless and sad looking. Luckily, I haven't needed them very often. When I do though, I just put them in and walk away. They just crawl around hopelessly searching for mom...
I can't watch it.

However, that doesn't change the fact that my snake will starve without its sacrifice and starving to death is a WAY worse way to go imo. So, like all my live feeders, I thank them first. At least their life was comfortable up until that point.

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That's how I think of it. I know they were treated well and will go quickly. I almost had to go buy a live Pinky for my KSB and I was dreading it and then all of a sudden he took f/t so lucky me

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Fair comments bud .. .. I have said many times in this and similar threads that I simply LOVE all living things and that's the main thing stopping me from dropping 'cute as hell' little mice in with my snakes ...... I've mentioned many times how I pick worms / slugs up off pavements / sidewalks when I'm out walking the dog and how my heart sinks when I accidentally stand on a snail in the dark . The crunching noise turns my stomach.

I simply mention the very real threat of damage to the snakes ( as it does undeniably occur ) as a way of hopefully discouraging others.

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You imply that people who feed live do not care about their feeders - or all living things for that matter. I have found the opposite to be true in most cases. We care enough to raise them, clean them, feed them and make sure they have happy lives until the very end. That takes a lot more commitment and care than detaching oneself and getting them already dead and frozen in the mail.

My snake just won't eat frozen, at least not any of the times i tried. I felt squeamish about feeding live until I saw how efficient Lucy is. She takes care of them really quick, and I make sure they are as comfortable as possible before that (bedding, a tube to hide in, some food). The snake isn't going to toy with it or try to draw anything out, and that made me feel pretty at peace with it all.

Yeah it kind of rubs me wrong to hear someone say they LOVE all animals too much to feed live mice to their snake, but it's okay as long as someone else kills it. I mean, I love all animals(except possibly scorpions) and I even like and recommend rats as pets to people. I've had a pet rat that died in my lap after a long life and I cried like a baby over her. I've had breeder males that I brought out to be a pet when they got elderly and Old Man rat lived to be over 7. But I also raise and feed live to my snakes.

The way you keep stating your opinions just sometimes comes off like you're way better than live feeders and you love animals more and it just sounds oh-so-superior and although maybe you don't intend it that way, that's how it sounds to me.

The same thing happens when you start posting dire exaggerated warnings of instant and absolute doom for any snake that gets fed live prey. Maybe you intend to just try to convince people to feed frozen-thawed but it comes off as a completely egotistical rant of a PETA enthusiast sometimes. There's just way better ways to get your points across.

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Originally Posted by John1982

You imply that people who feed live do not care about their feeders - or all living things for that matter. I have found the opposite to be true in most cases. We care enough to raise them, clean them, feed them and make sure they have happy lives until the very end. That takes a lot more commitment and care than detaching oneself and getting them already dead and frozen in the mail.

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Well I'm certainly not 'implying' anything and I do all those things you listed and more - I could say that you are implying that I don't do those things ...

To be honest , I don't know how else to explain why I could never feed LIVE .

It's a preference but if you feed live just keep an eye on it tell your snake latches onto it if they don't latch onto it it can hurt them

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I think it comes also from a place of how you see animals and 'nature' as i feel pet snakes are still more of a captive than a domestic pet. I don't mean that they dislike that captivity, they clearly thrive in it, but it isn't the same as an animal that has evolved beside us for thousands of years.

My feelings toward nature are that it 'just is'. there isn't love or cruelty there, there is life or death, and life that requires death. that isn't a cruelty, thats just the way of things. And at the end of the day the mouse is dead so your snake(s) can live whether you witnessed that death personally or not- don't pretend the butcher at the market just made those steaks out of thin air either ;)

Yup, that's why it's called the Food Chain.

It takes nature to feed nature.

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Originally Posted by Reinz

Yup, that's why it's called the Food Chain.

It takes nature to feed nature.

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it's also called the circle of life. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GibiNy4d4gc

:D

I feed all mine frozen, if I had access to the amount and size of live feeders I need on a weekly basis I would feed live,

Saying that I did acquire a 600g live feeder, it took a few months but I did switch her over to frozen, now she smashes frozen every time. When I did switch her she didn't loose any significant weight.

I think it's all down to personal preference but as a previously said, every keeper should be willing to feed live if the health of the animal depends on it


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I've fed my adult male both frozen and live. When I first got him he took a few f/t rats for me, but after a brief mite outbreak decided to no longer take the rats, so I tried a live mouse and he has been fantastic on live. My baby is also on live now because that is how she started. In my opinion, as long as one is being a responsible owner, both live and frozen are fine, and some snakes will prefer one method. Any good owner will do what is best for both them and their pet in the long run. On a side note, I've come to prefer live because the frozen rodents can carry mite eggs on them that will hatch after passing through the snake, though that is rare, I was just unlucky.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Well I'm certainly not 'implying' anything and I do all those things you listed and more - I could say that you are implying that I don't do those things ...

To be honest , I don't know how else to explain why I could never feed LIVE .

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I feel like this subject has already been hashed out on this thread a couple times, but here goes...

You could say you just don't have the stomach to watch an animal die and play an active role in its death. Which is totally fine; I know a lot of people who'd be vegetarian if they had to kill their own meat.

When you say you can't do it because you love all animals and leave it at that, with no sort of qualifiers, it does come across as implying that people who live feed must not love all animals. It's the basic structure of the English language; when you state that you cannot do A because of B, the implication is that anyone who DOES do A must not be constrained by B. So if that's not what you mean, you need to explain more.

Here's an example:
I feed live but I could NEVER do what SCWood was describing and breed my own because I get attached to animals.
That by itself makes it sound like I'm insulting SCWood and saying she doesn't/can't get attached to animals.
Now, to explain my statement more thoroughly:
To clarify, I am not saying that SCWood does not or cannot form attachments to animals; I am only saying that I cannot control my level of attachment when I'm around an animal, whereas she seems to be able to. In fact, breeding one's own feeders shows a commitment to their quality of life in excess of what I show by buying one from a pet store.

That's true though, I couldn't even return my pet mouse to the store after thirty seconds of interaction when I scooped him out of my BPs enclosure. :cool:

I've fed my collection both live and F/T. There's pros and cons to both. There is so nothing wrong with feeding live if you're responsible about it. I do agree that prey items die quicker by constriction than by CO2.

I agree with Deborah wholeheartedly about feeding/watering and not stressing rodents prior to feeding.

Also, based on my experience, people often anthropomorphize animals a bit too much. I know it's not intentional, but it happens. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people try to turn their cats into vegetarians due to their own beliefs (I'm a licensed veterinary technician). There are times when I've gotten tongue lashings from vegetarians for eating meat!

It goes without saying that what works for one person may not work for the other. It's also important that we be respect other people's ideas.




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Originally Posted by IsmQui718

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I can't tell you how many times I've seen people try to turn their cats into vegetarians due to their own beliefs (I'm a licensed veterinary technician). There are times when I've gotten tongue lashings from vegetarians for eating meat!

It goes without saying that what works for one person may not work for the other. It's also important that we be respect other people's ideas.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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One of my daughters and her husband are Vegans. They converted their dog because they felt it would be hypocritical of them if it ate meat.

Note:
Im not defending or judging vegans and vegetarians.

i love this thread! it has it all - drama, sarcasm, pictures, gender misidentification, hair, a discussion about ice cream, i added a Lion King song, vegetarian/vegan pets, etc. etc. in between the banter, there's still worthwhile discussion on the merits of feeding live or f/t.

this thread has been a wild ride. :D :rofl:

Edit: it also includes this really cool graphic made by Aercadia. lol

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Originally Posted by Aercadia

http://i.imgur.com/9BmxpQc.png

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