Pastel Butter x Spider (Maternal Incubation)

Day 39. Egg temperature today is at 89 degrees.

I tried offering her a prekilled soft fur based on a suggestion from a friend.

Unfortunately she wouldn't take it. I tried leaving it in with her, but she ignored it. Today I offered a live weaned soft fur instead and she immediately snatched it. This is her fifth meal on eggs.

The eggs are still a bit dehydrated, so I'll be doing what I can to correct that. The brown staining seems to be from the sphagnum moss.

https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/...46956170_o.jpg

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Only two or three weeks to go right? Don't forget, we want pipping pictures.

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Originally Posted by TurkeyPython

Only two or three weeks to go right? Don't forget, we want pipping pictures.

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Oh, definitely. I'm taking daily pictures of butt-ugly eggs, just wait and see how many I take when there are adorable baby snake heads. :P

Temping at 88 degrees tonight. Still incubating the marshmallows. Despite having four or five meals, she hasn't defecated. I also haven't seen her drink water at all since her pre-lay shed.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...01530725_n.jpg

She's probably drinking you just havent caught her yet. I know depending on the nest location they stretch and reach all the way to the other end of the tub to drink with out leaving the eggs.

Hey was looking back over your thread and never did notice her body weight or what the father looks like or his body weight what day did you catch them conceiving what day the eggs were laid can u give some of that info please love the thread though man keep it up

Thanks for posting! I think this is the first thread in a long time I didn't skip one post while going through. I really want to try maternal incubation when my girls get up to size.

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Originally Posted by aceruxer

Hey was looking back over your thread and never did notice her body weight or what the father looks like or his body weight what day did you catch them conceiving what day the eggs were laid can u give some of that info please love the thread though man keep it up

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The last time they were paired was in August of 2013.

The eggs were laid on February 19th, 2014.

This is the male:

https://scontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/...92065889_o.jpg

did u ever hook up the acurite and get a humidity reading ?

No, I plan on hooking it up for my next female, who is due in a couple of weeks.

Updates? How are momma and eggs???

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Actually my next female is due in a couple of days, not weeks, LOL.

Charlotte seems to be doing fine, I will get a picture today and post it up. Today is Day 45.

My only concern at this point is that a few of the eggs seem small and shrunken. None of them are bad or rotting, but a few seem smaller than the others. I can't fathom how a baby ball python could come out of eggs that small, but the others seem normal sized. Hoping there won't be issues with yolk absorption due to water loss.

https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/...04175978_o.jpg

Are the shells hard or still leathery/pliable?

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

Are the shells hard or still leathery/pliable?

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The shells of the shrunken ones feel a bit hard and stiff. When I press harder they give, but I wouldn't call them pliable.

Considering whether I should remove the eggs to an incubator so that I can add water to the shrunken ones.

So I went ahead and put some damp moss on the eggs while Charlotte was distracted with a soft fur. Problem is, when I checked back on her she had uncoiled the eggs completely. I'm wondering if adding the moss made her uncomfortable or if she's simply less interested in incubating so close to the hatch date. If she doesn't wrap them back up in a few hours, I am going to remove them and put them in an incubator to finish things up. :confusd:

Another thought (I know we talked on FB) when they get closer to hatching, I know they give off a bit more heat than usual. Are they temping any higher than they have been?

I wonder if it's just getting close to hatch time...don't they usually coil them a lot looser?

Or do you mean she left the nest completely?

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

Another thought (I know we talked on FB) when they get closer to hatching, I know they give off a bit more heat than usual. Are they temping any higher than they have been?

I wonder if it's just getting close to hatch time...don't they usually coil them a lot looser?

Or do you mean she left the nest completely?

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Last night she left it completely, today she is loosely circling the nest, not in contact with any of the eggs at all. I will have to temp them once I wake up a bit more, and figure out where to go from here. Hatching at 50 days would seem a bit early to me. :confusd:

Okay, so.

I've got the incubator heating up, and will be removing the eggs in an hour or two, after temperatures are stable.

I want to thank everyone for their support and interest in this project. It means a lot to me. In a way, I feel like I've failed you all, and this decision was one that I struggled with for days. In the end, I feel that the eggs will be better off in an incubator until they hatch. This was a preventable decision, and I feel badly that I didn't put enough foresight into this process to succeed.

I'll be happy to answer any questions that I didn't anticipate in this post.

1) Why am I removing the eggs?

Because Charlotte has stopped wrapping them, and the temperature of the eggs is unstable (one is at 85 degrees, another is at 88 degrees).

2) Is this a reason not to do maternal incubation or something that can typically be expected to happen with MI?

Absolutely not. I feel that the reason Charlotte has abandoned the nest is due to my own mistakes. Adding the damp moss disturbed her, and I feel that in general I have been too attentive toward her and the nest. I've made her uncomfortable, and that is something that could have easily been avoided.

3) How will I prevent this from happening in the future?

Next year I will have a much better setup for MI. I underestimated how hard it would be to keep humidity up in an arid state like Utah. Charlotte is in a poorly-made rack that lets a lot of humidity escape. Next year my brooding females will be in a professional rack, and I may even put the maternally incubating females in tubs with lids.

4) Is this an issue that other people should prepare for?

I don't believe this will be an issue for most people who want to try maternal incubation. Keep in mind the humidity of where you live, and be prepared to adjust the brooding female's enclosure as necessary. These adjustments should be done BEFORE she lays eggs, as doing so afterward can result in her leaving the nest (as happened here).

5) What would I have done differently to succeed at maternal incubation?

Next time (and yes, there will be a next time), I will be more careful and aggressive with keeping humidity at acceptable levels. If I had set up the nest to maintain the proper levels of humidity, I would not have had to disturb it at all, and I believe I would have succeeded with Charlotte. I underestimated how dry Utah is, and the coconut husk and sphagnum moss bedding were not enough. In the future I will use a better rack, or tubs with lids on to maintain humidity. I may also experiment with containers of water crystals near the heat source, or containers of plain water if I can figure out a way to keep them secure.

https://scontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/...82835576_n.jpg

I moved the eggs to the incubator. They felt fairly soft and pliable, so high hopes. Perhaps they would have been fine after all without me adding the moss last night, but what's done is done.

Here's the post from the last page, for higher visibility.

Okay, so.

I've got the incubator heating up, and will be removing the eggs in an hour or two, after temperatures are stable.

I want to thank everyone for their support and interest in this project. It means a lot to me. In a way, I feel like I've failed you all, and this decision was one that I struggled with for days. In the end, I feel that the eggs will be better off in an incubator until they hatch. This was a preventable decision, and I feel badly that I didn't put enough foresight into this process to succeed.

I'll be happy to answer any questions that I didn't anticipate in this post.

1) Why am I removing the eggs?

Because Charlotte has stopped wrapping them, and the temperature of the eggs is unstable (one is at 85 degrees, another is at 88 degrees).

2) Is this a reason not to do maternal incubation or something that can typically be expected to happen with MI?

Absolutely not. I feel that the reason Charlotte has abandoned the nest is due to my own mistakes. Adding the damp moss disturbed her, and I feel that in general I have been too attentive toward her and the nest. I've made her uncomfortable, and that is something that could have easily been avoided.

3) How will I prevent this from happening in the future?

Next year I will have a much better setup for MI. I underestimated how hard it would be to keep humidity up in an arid state like Utah. Charlotte is in a poorly-made rack that lets a lot of humidity escape. Next year my brooding females will be in a professional rack, and I may even put the maternally incubating females in tubs with lids.

4) Is this an issue that other people should prepare for?

I don't believe this will be an issue for most people who want to try maternal incubation. Keep in mind the humidity of where you live, and be prepared to adjust the brooding female's enclosure as necessary. These adjustments should be done BEFORE she lays eggs, as doing so afterward can result in her leaving the nest (as happened here).

5) What would I have done differently to succeed at maternal incubation?

Next time (and yes, there will be a next time), I will be more careful and aggressive with keeping humidity at acceptable levels. If I had set up the nest to maintain the proper levels of humidity, I would not have had to disturb it at all, and I believe I would have succeeded with Charlotte. I underestimated how dry Utah is, and the coconut husk and sphagnum moss bedding were not enough. In the future I will use a better rack, or tubs with lids on to maintain humidity. I may also experiment with containers of water crystals near the heat source, or containers of plain water if I can figure out a way to keep them secure.

Here's the eggs. They're in a sealed off hovabator with a herpstat 1 basic thermostat and water in the plastic insert (not touching the eggs, obviously).

https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/...26319460_o.jpg

Whether you made it to the end or not this thread was amazing! Watching someone document maternal incubation was awesome and I'm sure it'll open a lot of people's eyes as to whether they want to try it or not. Good luck with the eggs I speak for everyone that has been following this thread when I say we wish the you the best and hope to see some little hatchlings coming soon

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Originally Posted by BumbleB

Whether you made it to the end or not this thread was amazing! Watching someone document maternal incubation was awesome and I'm sure it'll open a lot of people's eyes as to whether they want to try it or not. Good luck with the eggs I speak for everyone that has been following this thread when I say we wish the you the best and hope to see some little hatchlings coming soon

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Thank you, that means a lot. I have had some criticism along the way (i.e. why don't you just spend the money and get a good incubator), but I have also had far more support than I expected, which was wonderful.

If my other herpstat arrives in time, I will be trying maternal incubation with my leopard clutch in a new rack system. If not, I plan on resuming my exploration of maternal incubation next year. I feel confident that I (and anyone else) can succeed at maternal incubation when we have the right tools and information. Now that I better understand the humidity I'm dealing with here in Utah, I can prepare for it and avoid having to disturb the nest and the mother during incubation.

I truly hope that this won't discourage people from trying maternal incubation on their own. It's not difficult if you're prepared, it's a wonderful experience, and it's an amazing insight into these animals we own.

Would you mind sending me a PM with your research materials? I'd like to do some reading because I'd love to try this out with a clutch next year.

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Originally Posted by BHReptiles

Would you mind sending me a PM with your research materials? I'd like to do some reading because I'd love to try this out with a clutch next year.

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Sure, I will write one up tomorrow. :)

:(

I'm sad, and especially sad for you, that this didn't go all the way to hatching, but I totally understand your choice.

Please keep updating us on your trials at maternal incubation. There isn't nearly enough good info out there about it! And of course, we want pics when these eggs hatch!

Don't let the few tell you how to do what you want to do. I've been reading this thread from the beginning and I think it's amazing what you have accomplished. This makes me want to do maternal incubation when I decide to start breeding. Personally I'm very proud of what you have done. It's not about "what could have been". Its about what you have accomplished. I live in an arid climate also. I can't wait to see what else you do. This is making me want to try breeding this season but know my friends aren't ready. Keep up the awesome work. Also if you do maternal on your next clutch start a thread so I can live vicariously through it until my babies are ready. I'm excited by what you are learning. There needs to be more info on maternal incubation. Best wishes going out to you.

I'm actually wondering if she is doing this on purpose because they are close to hatch. A few reasons that may be true:

They give off more heat when they're closer to hatch

They may need room in the egg to position for cutting their egg open

They may actually need lower humidity for the egg to become brittle and therefore able to be cut open by the baby

It could be that she unwrapped for any of these reasons - the moss may have initiated it because she actually wants the eggs to dry out a bit. These are totally unproven speculations of course. I hope they all pop out happy and healthy soon for you and thanks for your documentation of the whole process!

Here's the information I sent via PM, as other people may find it useful.

I started off a few years ago, stalking Quiet Tempest's threads:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/searc...earchid=965046

Bob Clark has a good article on it:

http://www.bobclark.com/articles/200603.html

This article is an excellent insight into how maternal incubation benefits the hatchlings (the study concludes that maternally incubated hatchlings are larger and heavier, with longer jaws):

http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...und_their_eggs

This article provides information on how maternal incubation affects the mother:

http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...80b0e0d1e7.pdf

I am sorry that you are in this position :(. Your reasons for moving the eggs to the incubator are very valid and I hope next year MI will work out for you. Today is Day 25 for my MI eggs and since she is incubating the eggs in her glass tank, I do not have the need to check on her all the time. Usually I just check the temps from the outside and once a day I'd lift her hide box to see if she's okay.

With your conclusion that Charlotte may have abandoned her nest due to constant interfering will help me to lessen my urge to check her constantly. Actually, I have not checked her eggs for over a week now!

Good luck on your clutch and hope they all start pippin soon :)

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Originally Posted by scterial

I am sorry that you are in this position :(. Your reasons for moving the eggs to the incubator are very valid and I hope next year MI will work out for you. Today is Day 25 for my MI eggs and since she is incubating the eggs in her glass tank, I do not have the need to check on her all the time. Usually I just check the temps from the outside and once a day I'd lift her hide box to see if she's okay.

With your conclusion that Charlotte may have abandoned her nest due to constant interfering will help me to lessen my urge to check her constantly. Actually, I have not checked her eggs for over a week now!

Good luck on your clutch and hope they all start pippin soon :)

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Thank you! Good luck with your own clutch as well, make sure you take pictures! :)

Quoting once again, because for some reason my longer/more useful posts seem to be ending up at the bottom of the page.

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

Here's the information I sent via PM, as other people may find it useful.

I started off a few years ago, stalking Quiet Tempest's threads:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/searc...earchid=965046

Bob Clark has a good article on it:

http://www.bobclark.com/articles/200603.html

This article is an excellent insight into how maternal incubation benefits the hatchlings (the study concludes that maternally incubated hatchlings are larger and heavier, with longer jaws):

http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...und_their_eggs

This article provides information on how maternal incubation affects the mother:

http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...80b0e0d1e7.pdf

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The shells feel very thin and pliable, like they would be easy to poke through. I started them off at 87.5 degrees and raised the temperature to 88 degrees last night. Charlotte is absolutely ravenous, slamming soft furs like there's no tomorrow.

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Sucks that u had to pull them .. I wanted to see u make it all the way thru

Today is Day 50 for the eggs.

On another topic, Charlotte had five meals while she was incubating them, but never defecated. My theory is that she was absorbing almost all of the food she ate, resulting in very little waste. She's still pretty light, but still inhaling food.

CHARLOTTE'S EGGS ARE HATCHING. I CAN'T EVEN I'M SO EXCITED OMFG.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...82897662_o.jpg

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

CHARLOTTE'S EGGS ARE HATCHING. I CAN'T EVEN I'M SO EXCITED OMFG.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...82897662_o.jpg

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Oh my! Congrats!!!!!

That was fast!

Very nice!!!!!!!!!!

They were only in the incubator for four days, so probably they would have been fine if I left them in with Charlotte. I'm just way too excited to care, LOL. :D

Squeeeee!!!! Yayyy!! Congrats!! :D love cute little pippers :)


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I don't think i've ever posted on this thread, but i've been following along..and I must admit...I am SUPER STOKED right now about this!!!!
Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee post pics every hour or so with updates lol

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Originally Posted by SteveySingle

I don't think i've ever posted on this thread, but i've been following along..and I must admit...I am SUPER STOKED right now about this!!!!
Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee post pics every hour or so with updates lol

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I will for sure, I'm so excited about this I'm almost crying tears of happiness. :oops:

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

I will for sure, I'm so excited about this I'm almost crying tears of happiness. :oops:

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Is it a little normal that pipped? Baby snake faces are the cutest!

It looks like a baby butter. I'm in the process of trying to set up a web cam for anyone who wants to watch them hatch.

It's just hard to tell from the angle, and the blushed head tricked me.

This was a cool thread. Congratulations on the hatchlings.

https://new.livestream.com/accounts/...events/2910978

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

https://new.livestream.com/accounts/...events/2910978

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ahhh he's lookin all around checkin it out, so cool! i am def going to do this when mines pip.

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Originally Posted by SteveySingle

ahhh he's lookin all around checkin it out, so cool! i am def going to do this when mines pip.

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It's nice, this way I can keep track of the eggs without disturbing the babies. :)