Scale-less BP photo!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I have a hunch they will not be getting scale rot, just a hunch.

Also I think the average joe argument is a bad one, average joe can do anything to the animal regardless of scales or not.

---

Lol maybe I should of been more specific, guess I thought it would of been obvious. But anyways.. here goes, a bacterial infection on its bare skin without scales protecting it will make for a horrible case of BELLY rot.

To some extent, I agree with the "stay out of it, it doesn't affect you" bit. But if someone is doing something that is causing an animal to suffer needlessly, I think that's where people should draw the line and start to get involved or protest. At that point, it becomes abuse, and that is definitely NOT okay.

I'm not saying we know enough about this morph yet to say that's the case. But if it is, I definitely will not go along with just "minding my own business because it's not my animal".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Surrealle

So, here's a stupid question.. Do these guys shed?

---

"Note: the scaleless Corn Snakes shed just like any other snake, you just get a scaleless exuvia which is thinner. Their scaleless skin is composed of an external and internal layer" (from here). So yes, scaleless snakes shed.

On another note:
The protection argument can only work so far. A bite from a rat or mouse is going to cause damage whether the snake has scales or not. Scales only offer so much protection, and pointy objects go through scales just fine. Since BPs don't need light the same way bearded dragons do, there's no reason to assume that the animal will have any trouble regulating body temp or getting burned. Just like ALL animals: Don't offer a heat source hot enough for them to burn themselves on, and they won't! I do have to wonder if the hot spot in the tank will need to be a bit lower though; to what degree do scales effect thermoregulation, if at all?

guess ill have to break this down..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

I never said Brian founded the spider, I said "Any individual that bred the spider". Couldn't care less who bred it, they are all the same.

---

lets recap...

Quote:

---

Just like with the spider's. The big breeders were well aware of the issues surrounding them, but was kept that quiet.

---

Quote:

---

The irony of saying "big breeder", just say their name or are you going to keep quite also?

---

Quote:

---

I don't have a problem with saying Brian's name, the reason I didn't is because all big breeders at the same.

---

How the heck am I supposed to read it any other way? Thus I confirmed you knew Kevin founded it. Since you still never said his name

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

I never said these 100% have problems. Your comprehension of English isn't very good is it? I said IF they have problems, they wouldn't tell you. It would lessen the amount of money they will make.

---

Thus if brian showed the problems publicly, it would make you wrong. What was that about comprehension?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by filly77

Lol maybe I should of been more specific, guess I thought it would of been obvious. But anyways.. here goes, a bacterial infection on its bare skin without scales protecting it will make for a horrible case of BELLY rot.

---

The bacteria forms when lodged under the scales, causing the infection that rots the scales and skin, not having scales would actually help that since it wouldn't harbor it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Surrealle

To some extent, I agree with the "stay out of it, it doesn't affect you" bit. But if someone is doing something that is causing an animal to suffer, I think that's where people should draw the line and start to get involved or protest. At that point, it becomes abuse, and that is definitely NOT okay.

I'm not saying we know enough about this morph yet to say that's the case. But if it is, I definitely will not go along with just "minding my own business because it's not my animal". Same as any other situation where I see an animal in unnecessary distress at the hands of a human.

---

I suppose I should have said within reason of not being abusive where the animal couldn't live a quality life.

The breeders involved are passionate about their animals. I'd like to think they don't purposely abuse their animals or make them suffer.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I assumed if people lacked on cleaning, them laying in their own waste would cause harm to their skin. But if what you say is true, than I stand corrected. Ty

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

The bacteria forms when lodged under the scales, causing the infection that rots the scales and skin, not having scales would actually help that since it wouldn't harbor it.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by satomi325

I suppose I should have said within reason of not being abusive where the animal couldn't live a quality life.

The breeders involved are passionate about their animals. I'd like to think they don't purposely abuse their animals or make them suffer.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

---

Fair enough.. And I wasn't directing my response at you specifically, I've seen a few others in this thread telling the nay-sayers to mind their own business because it doesn't affect them.

I think if an animal is suffering, in this case by potentially not being able to thrive because it's scaleless, people should get up in arms about it whether it affects them directly or not. I'd be disgusted with anyone that would just shrug and let it slide.

(Unfortunately, when you're talking about the kind of money this type of snake could fetch, I don't trust anyone to have the animal's best interest at heart. Not saying they wouldn't, but I personally wouldn't rely on it.)

And once again, I'm not saying that is the case here. We clearly don't know enough yet to judge.

It all comes down to quality of life.


For dogs I list the following:

Golden Retrievers are prone to hip dysplasia.

German Shepherd Dogs are prone to hip dysplasia.

Basset Hounds are prone to luxation of vertebral discs.

Rotweilers are prone to anemia and ACL tears.

Shar Peis are prone to skin fold pyodermas.



For Cats I list the following:

Scottish folds are prone to arthritis later in life, and also carry a lethal recessive gene.

Persians are prone to breathing difficulties, skin fold pyodermas, and have a constant self care deficit.

Sphynxes are prone to getting cold at night, and also are more likely to have dry skin.




However, in each of these cases, the animals are able to be properly cared for and have a good quality of life with only MINOR changes to "normal" husbandry practices.


Spider Balls are no different. The wobble is passed with the gene; anyone who is against it is free to stop making them, but the fact is that the wobbliness (in most cases) does not affect the animal's quality of life. If anything, it can increase it–everyone seems to take extra good care of their spiders BECAUSE they have the propensity for an issue.


This Scaleless morph will be seen by the general public in a few weeks (days??) and as more information goes out about it we will get the REAL story....not some speculation based on 2 pictures, or phone calls to those who have glimpsed the animal. Then it is up to you (and the breeders) to decide what will happen with it. If there is solid evidence that the morph is challenged to the point of inability to properly survive, I have no doubt that all RESPONSIBLE breeders will cease mass production, or at least will work with the gene privately in an attempt to rectify the problems.

However, if there is no issue with the morph–it is able to breath, shed (if that's a thing with them), eat, poop, and interact safely–and there would only have to be slight modifications to husbandry to keep them healthy and happy (no spiney substrate, only F/T meals, etc.), then what would the difference be between a Scaleless BP and a German Shepherd Dog with hip dysplasia?? They both live happy, healthy, meaningful lives, and only require SLIGHT modifications to their diet/exercise/housing to deal with a non-lethal issue that is "natural" to their breed.


If anyone is of a different mindset, and would like to express their view, go for it!! :gj: Maybe you will get some converts...diversity is a good thing.
But if you want to get others to agree with you, you need to have SOLID REASONS for how you feel (not just feelings), and you CAN"T attack the other person for their beliefs. Quarreling never persuades anyone; if just polarizes the issue even further. The only way to convince someone else that their view needs adjusting is to acknowledge their viewpoint, put your hand around their shoulder, and lead them gently to your side of things; dragging them over while calling them names will only result in anger and dissent.



[/END POST]

My only quarry regarding scaleless snakes is whether or not they have eyecaps and belly scales. Without eyecaps, I can imagine that being without any means to clean their eyes, it could get infected, or at least be irritating. However, I do know that French-line scaleless corns actually do have eyecaps, so I won't disregard other scale-less snakes if they also have eyecaps.
Otherwise, as long as the animal remains healthy and well in captivity, then I don't see a problem. After all, it's not like other morphs such as albinism don't increase the risk of cancer or blindness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

This isn't a moral high horse issue. It's you getting butthurt over a snake that isn't yours, hearing facts that you can't argue, and fishing in the abyss hoping you catch something worth saying. So far you haven't come up with anything other than comments against the opponents, not the opposing view.

Personal jabs and name calling make you look childish. You need to at least have some ground to stand on before you go preaching.


Sent From an Enclosure

---

IT IS a moral high ground and you're opinion is moot in the end. You don't have to own it, you have an opinion on something completely unaffected you. Essentially, it's none of your business unless you make it. Which you're doing.

Basically, you're whining and it's nothing that concerns you.

Oh, and my argument against yours is. Who cares? It's a mutation, and you don't have to have anything to do with it. It's as simple as that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Fun fact: Spider, Woma, Hidden Gene Woma, Champagne, Spotnose, Sable, Champagne, Desert, Caramel Albino, Cinnamon, Black Pastel, Lesser Platinum, Butter, and Piedbald all can have issues beyond the color mutation, whether it be alone or when combined with other morphs.

---

sorry to derail the thread. lol i know the issues with all of these genes except for spotnose and piebald. what issues do they have?

on topic: i love it. the lack of scales really ramps up the clarity. crisp contrast. it's gonna make combos look ridiculous.

if you don't like it, don't work with them. i think people in the hobby forget that "morph" is a slang word we use for a genetic MUTATION. all the "pretty" colors we work with are already by definition MUTANTS, and most of them would stick out like a sore thumb in the wild. so the whole "it wouldn't survive in the wild" argument is kind of irrelevant. these animals AREN'T in the wild, so why would it be?

Kodeih and Expensive hobby
You each have an opinion but your constant bickering here needs to STOP.
I thought I made myself clear in my last post and was trying not to call anyone out but evidently I need to be crystal clear now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kodieh

IT IS a moral high ground and you're opinion is moot in the end. You don't have to own it, you have an opinion on something completely unaffected you. Essentially, it's none of your business unless you make it. Which you're doing.

Basically, you're whining and it's nothing that concerns you.

Oh, and my argument against yours is. Who cares? It's a mutation, and you don't have to have anything to do with it. It's as simple as that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

---

I think there are two types of people who are "disagreeing" with this snake. Those that don't like how it looks (in which case, yes, fine, they don't have to own it). And those that are worried about its health and safety, long-term. That's what animal lovers do, and they have every right to be concerned. As of right now, we don't know enough yet to judge whether this snake will live and thrive in captivity, but it's a concern that can and should affect someone that loves animals. Breeding an animal that will suffer or die prematurely (IF that ends up being the case) simply for money or because it looks good is completely immoral, IMO.

I'm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Kodeih and Expensive hobby
You each have an opinion but your constant bickering here needs to STOP.
I thought I made myself clear in my last post and was trying not to call anyone out but evidently I need to be crystal clear now.

---

If we're not allowed to discuss this, why leave the thread open?

Would it upset more of you to know that a pair of this gene has already sold for as little as $100,000? I'm going to find out the exact number hopefully next weekend, I'll keep you guys posted.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by filly77

I assumed if people lacked on cleaning, them laying in their own waste would cause harm to their skin. But if what you say is true, than I stand corrected. Ty

---

I'm pretty sure that would cause issues, but its not quite the same as scale rot. I'm pretty sure harm could come scales or not though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheSnakeGeek

sorry to derail the thread. lol i know the issues with all of these genes except for spotnose and piebald. what issues do they have?

---

Super Spotnose (Powerball) have a wobble and Piebald Lesser can have undersized eyes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kodieh

Would it upset more of you to know that a pair of this gene has already sold for as little as $100,000?

---

rumor is 210,000

and how does the price have anything to do with the discussion at all? no it does not upset me or even having anything to do with my opinion or mood at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Super Spotnose (Powerball) have a wobble and Piebald Lesser can have undersized eyes.

---

now that you mention it, i do remember hearing about the piebald lesser. had no clue about the powerball though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

and how does the price have anything to do with the discussion at all? no it does not upset me or even having anything to do with my opinion or mood at all.

---

Well, "as an animal lover" the propagation of thus abomination...

Nah, I'm done.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

Maybe I missed a page or a picture but ..... where is everyone getting the idea that it doesn't have belly scales?

I think the scaless is amazing and I cant wait to see what it looks like with other genes added on. I'm sure Brian will inform everyone IF there are any health issues with it. He is a great guy and loves the animals he works with.

On a side note though. How did the picture actually leak? It seems to me that Brian was not happy about this at all. I know I would be pretty pissed off as well...whoever did it may of done it with the right intentions but to me it is still stealing and is wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DavidMundy

I think the scaless is amazing and I cant wait to see what it looks like with other genes added on. I'm sure Brian will inform everyone IF there are any health issues with it. He is a great guy and loves the animals he works with.

On a side note though. How did the picture actually leak? It seems to me that Brian was not happy about this at all. I know I would be pretty pissed off as well...whoever did it may of done it with the right intentions but to me it is still stealing and is wrong.

---

This is just my opinion on this "leak".
I believe BHB released the photo themselves. This way they can see the public reaction before they do release
photos. They then can address the public accordingly. these guys are not on top of the industry 'cause they're stupid.
Of coarse this is just my thoughts.......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakeman13

This is just my opinion on this "leak".
I believe BHB released the photo themselves. This way they can see the public reaction before they do release
photos. They then can address the public accordingly. these guys are not on top of the industry 'cause they're stupid.
Of coarse this is just my thoughts.......

---

I think there's a mole in BHB... :O

BHB is dropping the information out piece by piece.

for example, i heared from different sources that Mike Wilbanks purchased some scaleless heads. then i heared ELSEWHERE that he purchased 3 of them, for like 60000-70000 a piece.

then there was a skype interview a few days ago where Brian did show a scaleless hatchling live in the show. low resolution, laggy skype, but still, he showed it on camera. He also said he got offered 100000 dollars, but will keep them and raise them himself. in the same interview, when they were talking about something completely different, Brian "let it slip" that he recently sold a small group of BPs (he didnt say what exactly) for 210000 dollars.

piece the bits together and you come to a quite substantiated rumour based on like 3 or 4 different sources in different places that Mike Wilbanks purchased 3 scaleless heads for 70000 each and a total of 210000 dollars. and the fully scaleless are not for sale for now.

the leaked pics, who knows. Maybe they were taken as part of the skype interview were he showed them off? Maybe Brian allowed them to leak because he will show the scaleless live to the public at a reptile show?

its kinda smart, we get news about these critters every 2 days or so. a picture there, an interview here, soon a reptile show which will bring tons of pictures. safe to say, belly shots will leak when he maybe lets people hold it and others take out their cellphones.

i am reasonably certain there wont be any belly scales because it leaked just days before he will show them publicly, at which point it will certainly come out. also scaleless snakes with belly scales always have scales around the mouth and on the underside of the head.


anyway, i see no secrecy. i see that stuff gets leaked in a way that the true enthusiasts (like this forum, like us) get to know stuff a few days before the wider public finds out. thats the pattern. we first heared about the scaleless with one initial picture just days before he put the egg cutting into a special snakebytesTV episode. now we have the post-1st-shed pics and some more details days before he drops the bomb and shows them live at a reptile show. and we know scaleless is not for sale, and scaleless heads go for 70000 a piece.

just like with blockbuster movies, its the typical pattern of early announcement, then sneek peek, then trailer, some behind-the-scenes stuff, interviews, a making of, pre-viewings for insiders, and then grand premiere. These leaks imply anything other than secrecy; they are designed to get us hot for the grand premiere. and judging by this thread, its totally working :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Surrealle

So, here's a stupid question.. Do these guys shed?

---

We wouldn't know until Brian tells us.

But all scaleless snakes that have been observed do shed. They do not lack a beta-keratin layer. Rather, they have a thin beta-keratin layer that the snake sheds as it grows. The shed does not stretch like regular shed scales.

Interestingly, the scaleless snakes that have been observed has a thicker than normal alpha-keratin layer (skin). Researchers are attributing this to the reason why adult scaleless gopher snakes in the wild are not showing more damage/injury than their scaled counterparts.

More than anything, i just wanna...i just feel it :D

sent from my incubator

just found this on facebook, a post from BHB Reptiles linking the image that started this thread:

Quote:

---

I'm happy to conform that the "leaked" scaleless Ball Python pic was in fact our male Scaleless. Although I didn't want the pic to be out there until the Herp Nation article came out in a week or so, I am at least happy that everyone had a chance to enjoy it as much as we have.
A few things... Yes it is a real snake and not clay. No, they do not have Heat Pits, but you can see the heat receptors and I'm sure they can still sense heat. They act completely normal and move just like any other snake. They do still have a layer of skin, so it DOES still have eyecaps. And yes they feel so SOFT!
I'm so excited about this project and you can hear and read the entire story with a LOAD of awesome pictures of the two of them in the Herp Nation article coming out soon! Let me know what you think about them?

---

nothing new, really, but its some official confirmation. eye caps are fine, heat pits gone. and he says they move and act normal :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Now If we were still in youtube mode I would point out the underline parts :) but we can leave that alone.

I just wonder why do you feel the animals we keep need to be ready to go prowling the wild? I wouldn't be surprised if the bright white lucy got picked off first in the wild before the scaleless snake. I think we can both agree most would likely not survive. I doubt my husky would make it very far in the wild and she's a lot closer to the wild wolf than most dogs people own.

However they do survive in captivity, which is where that line of ball pythons will be living for now on, they might as well forget about the wild. We don't know of any problems that will effect the scaleless ability to survive in captivity, it's all speculation right now. I'm sure it won't take long for anything to come to light, brian made this a very public thing and people want answers.

Maybe my optimism stems from the fact I have scaleless breaded dragon (silkbacks) and a hairless cat (sphinx). The dragon does require lotion every so often to keep his skin from drying out, but besides that he lives life normal as any other dragon, besides the silence of the lambs jokes made. The cat I could argue being hairless actually enhance the survival of the animal in captivity, less allergies and a cat that is more likely to socialize instead of the stereotypical screw you attitude of a normal house cat.

There just seems to be so much emphasis on the animals ability to survive in the wild, which shouldn't that be our last concern?

---

I am not sure what your reference to you tube mode is, (forgive me I'm an old man) but I see that you have underlined the two lines where I have referenced "characteristic". By definition a characteristic is something that is typical of a person, place, or things. Scales are a characteristic of snakes as snakes typically have scales. They would also be a characteristic of fish for the same reason. This is not to say every snake and fish has scales, but most do. Scaleless is not a characteristic because most snakes have scales and therefore is not typical. It is however, a mutation. Further down this thread someone points out that all morphs are mutations to which I whole heartedly agree. A mutation is a simple variation from the norm. A mutation may be any of the three following scenarios. It may be an enhancement. It may be of nuetral order or insignificant. It may impact negatively the species. Those mutations that enhance, tend to remain and progress or evolve. Over time, if they have a positive enough impact they may even become a characteristic. Those that are neutral have no significant impact either way and may or may not continue. But those that impact negatively usually are selected for elimination one way or another and only reoccur as randomly as the first example.

I will agree that many of these mutations (paint jobs) that we all love would probably have trouble surviving in the wild as they would be preyed upon easily because they are highly visible. You support your position by saying it is about how they survive in captivity. Since we are talking about captive snakes I will agree. Rather then referencing the wild, I probaly should have said instead, "without special assistance or provision". I consider the same point for captivity. Aside from being much more visible, most morphs can still move, locate prey, and thrive just like their wild counterparts. They require no special assistance or provision other then to be givien access to food and a suitable place (habitat) to exist. That is the distinction I am trying to make.

Yes, I am making an assumption and perhaps prematurely, that there may be some impairment with the scaleless snake's ability to sense heat and move normally. Time will prove me right or wrong. But if it proves true that the scaleless snake has difficulty moving normally or cannot sense heat for the purpose of locating prey, then it does diminish the animal and by that I mean it takes away from that which makes it a ball python. Thats why I stated it is not a characteristic. It is not typical. It is a defect. A while a defect is a mutation too, it is a mutation of the third kind. Meaning a mutation that negatively impacts the survivability in the wild or in captivity, without special assitance or provision. If this morph proves out to cause complications with the animals ability to perform its very basic functions, then I will have trouble with it. And because I am who I am, I will struggle with understanding how others wouldn't feel the same. But I know there are those that won't and that's life. I am not passing judgement, and I do not feel like I am standing on moral high ground. It is just how I feel about it and so I shared.

By the time I finished typing this, I didn't see the post above me that states most issues are normal. If that is the case then carry on and enjoy.

Wow cant believe that some people are freaking out over an animal morph. It will never be in the wild so surviving in the wild is not an issue. Also if it has any health issues im 100 percent sure brian will not breed it. He has said many times that the money is just a bonus to his bussiness his main motivation is his passion for the animals

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

It's so clean and pretty. I can't wait for a year to go by so I can see this little one bigger XD


Sent from iPhone 5 using tapatalk :)

I am not a fan of these being sold already. IMHO the scaleless should be raised, and bred, for at least 2 generations before any are sold. How does anyone know that these snakes don't develop problems as they age? How does anyone know if they can reproduce safely? what if every 5th egg is born without a patch of skin and every 10th is kinked?!?

It seems irresponsible to assume that just because 2 were born healthy that they are now good to be sold.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

I am not a fan of these being sold already. IMHO the scaleless should be raised, and bred, for at least 2 generations before any are sold. How does anyone know that these snakes don't develop problems as they age? How does anyone know if they can reproduce safely? what if every 5th egg is born without a patch of skin and every 10th is kinked?!?

It seems irresponsible to assume that just because 2 were born healthy that they are now good to be sold.

---

I'm sure Mike is not completely ignorant about this and a risk he is willing to take. You could apply that same mind set to any morph though. Cutting edge projects have their risks.

I don't think either of the fully scaleless have been sold. It's a 1.1 pair from what I've heard. And I don't think the scaleless heads are being sold to just any Tom, :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:, or Harry...the current pricetag is just too prohibitive for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaila

..being sold to just any Tom, :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:, or Harry...

---

*snicker*

:bow::eyepoppin:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Surrealle

*snicker*

---

Haha...yes, seems the censor did not like me using the nickname of Richard there. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

I am not a fan of these being sold already. IMHO the scaleless should be raised, and bred, for at least 2 generations before any are sold. How does anyone know that these snakes don't develop problems as they age? How does anyone know if they can reproduce safely? what if every 5th egg is born without a patch of skin and every 10th is kinked?!?

It seems irresponsible to assume that just because 2 were born healthy that they are now good to be sold.

---

It's irresponsible to assume they've already been sold.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I'm sure Mike is not completely ignorant about this and a risk he is willing to take. You could apply that same mind set to any morph though. Cutting edge projects have their risks.

---

You're also talking about a man who bought into Banana's early on and made a couple million off of them. So, if he spent a hundred grand and loses, it's not that bad for him.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

thats what i dont like about bad word filters or lists of words you may not say. they never give you the actual list!

that aside, if the fully scaleless does not work out, i guess the money can be recouped with just scaleless heads?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

thats what i dont like about bad word filters or lists of words you may not say. they never give you the actual list!

that aside, if the fully scaleless does not work out, i guess the money can be recouped with just scaleless heads?

---

i don't think people will really see the scaleless heads appealing. people will just use them to make the full scaleless.

Since I haven't see this posted yet - the scalless is about 28:30 in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8z31f2o060

Does it have eye caps? How does it shed?

Yes and it sheds just like any other scaleless snake does. Just one smooth piece of skin, without the scales. Brian describes it in the video on the previous page - says it's like peeled off sunburn. Which makes sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Inarikins

Yes and it sheds just like any other scaleless snake does. Just one smooth piece of skin, without the scales. Brian describes it in the video on the previous page - says it's like peeled off sunburn. Which makes sense.

---

Creepy
0.o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakeman13

The big guys that invest this kind of $$, will always hide the problems until they recover the $$.
Money is always first with these guys.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

The big breeders were well aware of the issues surrounding them, but was kept that quiet. All they care about is money, forget the snakes well being.

---

The scaleless Ball python is not for everyone. And that is ok. Debate and discussion is also ok.

But I want to make a point on these quotes above. I understand these types of issues are emotional, and elicit strong feelings, but these kinds of statements are ignorant.

Have you guys BEEN one of the "big guys"? It is so amazingly difficult to run a big company, even just by reptile world standards. It is a daily challenge. Folks don't get into the industry, and have success, to make money. Folks like BHB and Constrictors Unlimited have built a long track record. Their work and effort is based on passion for the animals. It helps if they are strong businessmen, but a lot of these types of guys have spent years spinning their wheels, digging dumb holes (that they then have to get back out of), and/or making slow steady progress through lots of hard work in order to be where they are today, to be classified, often derisively, as a "big breeder".

Mike Wilbanks in particular joined our TRR talk at NARBC Anaheim, discussing the evolution of the industry, and part of his story was the years of struggle to gain a foothold in the industry, selling dollars worth while the guy next to him sold tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands. He persevered, over years, and built a fine reputation and a significant company.

There are "bad guys" in the industry, but carelessly tossing folks like BHB and Mike Wilbanks into such a group, much less "all of them" is ignorant, wrong, and disrespectful.

I have heard the trials and tribulations, the frustrations of these particular "big guys" first hand. I have heard it from others as well. I am grateful that they have the drive and passion to keep their nose down and keep doing the best job they possibly can.

(I also have first hand experience with these issues, so it is easy to empathize, and it makes such negative blanket statements so hurtful to hear)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robyn@SYR

The scaleless Ball python is not for everyone. And that is ok. Debate and discussion is also ok.

But I want to make a point on these quotes above. I understand these types of issues are emotional, and elicit strong feelings, but these kinds of statements are ignorant.

Have you guys BEEN one of the "big guys"? It is so amazingly difficult to run a big company, even just by reptile world standards. It is a daily challenge. Folks don't get into the industry, and have success, to make money. Folks like BHB and Constrictors Unlimited have built a long track record. Their work and effort is based on passion for the animals. It helps if they are strong businessmen, but a lot of these types of guys have spent years spinning their wheels, digging dumb holes (that they then have to get back out of), and/or making slow steady progress through lots of hard work in order to be where they are today, to be classified, often derisively, as a "big breeder".

Mike Wilbanks in particular joined our TRR talk at NARBC Anaheim, discussing the evolution of the industry, and part of his story was the years of struggle to gain a foothold in the industry, selling dollars worth while the guy next to him sold tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands. He persevered, over years, and built a fine reputation and a significant company.

There are "bad guys" in the industry, but carelessly tossing folks like BHB and Mike Wilbanks into such a group, much less "all of them" is ignorant, wrong, and disrespectful.

I have heard the trials and tribulations, the frustrations of these particular "big guys" first hand. I have heard it from others as well. I am grateful that they have the drive and passion to keep their nose down and keep doing the best job they possibly can.

(I also have first hand experience with these issues, so it is easy to empathize, and it makes such negative blanket statements so hurtful to hear)

---

I would totally agree with you if you could provide evidence of just one thing.
Has one of these issues ever been let known to the public, before they were mass sold to the public???
Or have all the problems been admitted after the recovery of the investment?
Remember.....I only need one.
I am also not talking minor, even the Carmel kinking was kept quiet.

Would love to see videos of these guys crawling around and eating. And maybe purchase one in 5-10+ yrs when they are less than $1000
Most of all....I want to touch it. Looks like it would feel similar to my crested gecko.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robyn@SYR

The scaleless Ball python is not for everyone. And that is ok. Debate and discussion is also ok.

But I want to make a point on these quotes above. I understand these types of issues are emotional, and elicit strong feelings, but these kinds of statements are ignorant.

Have you guys BEEN one of the "big guys"? It is so amazingly difficult to run a big company, even just by reptile world standards. It is a daily challenge. Folks don't get into the industry, and have success, to make money. Folks like BHB and Constrictors Unlimited have built a long track record. Their work and effort is based on passion for the animals. It helps if they are strong businessmen, but a lot of these types of guys have spent years spinning their wheels, digging dumb holes (that they then have to get back out of), and/or making slow steady progress through lots of hard work in order to be where they are today, to be classified, often derisively, as a "big breeder".

Mike Wilbanks in particular joined our TRR talk at NARBC Anaheim, discussing the evolution of the industry, and part of his story was the years of struggle to gain a foothold in the industry, selling dollars worth while the guy next to him sold tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands. He persevered, over years, and built a fine reputation and a significant company.

There are "bad guys" in the industry, but carelessly tossing folks like BHB and Mike Wilbanks into such a group, much less "all of them" is ignorant, wrong, and disrespectful.

I have heard the trials and tribulations, the frustrations of these particular "big guys" first hand. I have heard it from others as well. I am grateful that they have the drive and passion to keep their nose down and keep doing the best job they possibly can.

(I also have first hand experience with these issues, so it is easy to empathize, and it makes such negative blanket statements so hurtful to hear)

---

Great post. I would have to say, Brian at BHB has got to be one of the most passionate folks out there in the reptile business. It's a pretty harsh opinion to say he's just a "big breeder in it for the money"......

If the snakes thrive, so be it! Would they survive in the wild? Not sure, but there have been scaleless specimens of snakes found in the wild before. Can't pull the "it isn't natural" card....sorry but....it isn't any less natural than us keepers that keep our snakes in captivity in plastic tubs, lol. All these beautiful bright morphs likely wouldn't make it long 'in the wild' either. Some spiders have terrible wobbles...yet folks continue to breed spiders anyway. If his scaleless babies eat well and thrive, then good for them!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakeman13

I would totally agree with you if you could provide evidence of just one thing.
Has one of these issues ever been let known to the public, before they were mass sold to the public???
Or have all the problems been admitted after the recovery of the investment?
Remember.....I only need one.
I am also not talking minor, even the Carmel kinking was kept quiet.

---

"Money is always first with these guys."

That was YOUR statement. And you want me to disprove it? Better for you to actually show proof of such a negative claim, as it is your claim.

If you said "Joe Smith Reptiles is a jerk, money is always first with him" then I would have to consider who Joe Smith is. You are lumping a large group of "big breeders" into this greedy group, and in this case, specifically implying BHB is in the group.

I'm saying that is incorrect, and unfair.

Lots of projects have turned out to be busts and not promoted. Breeders have failures all the time. You didn't hear about them because they were failures.

Very controversial subject. Would it be any different if it were a science lab doing the breeding? All I see are a lot of "ifs" and "maybes". If scaleless isn't your thing then why is there any issue at all?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakeman13

I would totally agree with you if you could provide evidence of just one thing.
Has one of these issues ever been let known to the public, before they were mass sold to the public???
Or have all the problems been admitted after the recovery of the investment?
Remember.....I only need one.
I am also not talking minor, even the Carmel kinking was kept quiet.

---

Champaign wobble was never a secret and the lethal super was posted the day it was discovered.