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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Wow I didn't intend to cause a war just get some opinions and way's to make none reptile people understand somewhat of why things are done a certain way.
I don't think there is one way that fits all but I do believe getting input from people who have kept them successfully Ball Pythons that is for me anyway is important I like learning and finding better ways.
Which is why I joined in the first place to meet people and discuss the care of Ball Pythons.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Void
As long as the snake is healthy and doesn't have any problems who cares if its a tub, rack or tank? I keep all of mine in tanks and they're all doing fine. A friend if mine has all of his in racks and they're all doing fine. In the end its all personal opinion anyway so why argue with someone who doesn't do it your way?
I see it more as a discussion, that's what forums are for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by satomi325
But this is a Ball python forum on a ball python husbandry subforum topic.
We are all ball keepers talking about our particular species in a rack system. You're the only one who has really gone off topic with hots. What applies to one species may or may not be applied to one species.
And yes. Its a matter of opinion, but you still say your way is right and we are wrong. I even quoted that in my last post......
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
No, I'm not talking about husbandry. I'm not saying every snake should be kept at 25degC am I? I'm saying every snake should be kept in a naturalistic enclosure. Me saying my way is right, is just my opinion, I don't see what's the problem there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah
Because YOUR way is more acceptable and/or right simply because this is how it's done by you and the majority of people on european forums? :rolleyes:
Who am I? well I am definitely not someone judging others and being condescending to them because of the way they keep THEIR animals, but I am definitely not one to hold my tongue when someone acts like you either, you don't see me pass judgment on the way you keep your animals do you?
Again many successful ways to keep animals so long their needs are met........... or maybe only one way so long it's yours :rolleye2:
Anyway enough time wasted on you.
Please feel free to try and find something in my enclosures to pass judgement on, that you or anybody else does better than me. From the pictures I posted earlier I think you can see that my animals are kept in the best conditions possible.
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
Oh really? How about i take a picture of me handling one of my Gaboon's for you tomorrow? And you can take a few pics of you handling some Gab's also to prove you have experience with them.
They are not identical in care and behavior at all. Nasicornis are incredibly prone to stress, and in general are far more nervous than Gaboons. If you're so experienced in this matter please do tell me on the whole what is the different between the two Gaboons in temperament.
Please tell me how you would keep each of the three species, Bitis nasicornis, Bitis rhinoceros and Bitis gabonica - The two gaboons listed, are two very different species in themselves.
Again you proved you don't know much about the topic. Venom toxicity from the three Bitis species listed above is low. It is the yield that makes them dangerous and the size of the fangs, allowing for envenomation deep into muscle tissue and into main arteries.
True, they are lazy. But you obviously have not witnessed a pissed off Gaboon, their burst of speed are short but powerful, and with their muscles they make it almost impossible for you to hook them properly.
hmmm ok they have a low venom toxicity. Clinical aspects of envenoming by Bitis Nasicornis
It is not only the yield but the potency of the venom. There care is very similar. As far as stress goes in the B. Nasicornis...... My ball pythons stress easier than any of our Rhino's did.
Unfortunately Venomoids are not legal to own here in CT. When we did we lived in Texas. One day we will move back to TX and will get back into Rhino's as they are one of my favorite snakes.
I have had more problems keeping Ball Pythons than we ever did with Rhino's. Go figure.
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
You nor i can definitively say that a natural enclosure doesn't benefit the snake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
I think you're naive to think a snake doesn't receive mental stimulation from a more elaborate set up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
I will assume you have run tests on neurological activity in the brain of snakes when in a rub with no decor etc, compared to a full on naturalistic viv? Like i said i think it's silly to assume that snakes 'feel' no benefit from a more interactive environment.
I'd love to see your data on the neurological activity in snakes kept in naturalistic vivaria as opposed to plain and simple. In lieu of said studies I'll accept an explanation as to why you can make assumptions in regards to the "happiness" of your animals whereas we can not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
Keeping snakes on newspaper, doesn't mean you're less likely to harbor critters.
Disagree, I can't remember ever hearing of someone unintentionally introducing snake mites from their daily newspaper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
you can't really compare a snake to a superior race like ourselves
Race, really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
It's got nothing to do with what i keep my snakes in, you could keep yours in a cardboard box for all i care. But it's the way in which so many keepers are satisfied with providing just the bare minimum. This is my opinion, and nothing for you to be offended by, this is what i don't understand about so many reptile keepers you all get worked up so easily.
More chuckles how every time you mention "not an insult" or "don't take this the wrong way" it's invariably followed by an insult.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
We have a voice and an opinion for a reason, to voice it.
Your crusade that turned this thread into a debate would have been better served in a thread of your own. Can you honestly say that you didn't predict this outcome? Can't say I'm upset though, I've enjoyed the read thus far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
No snake in the world likes large open spaces.
Wrong, there are plenty of sight hunters that can often be found in large, open spaces - racers and coachwhips immediately come to mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
That isn't evolution. Evolution would be if they developed something entirely new, to adapt to the paper substrate - for example if there was a change in their belly scales.
I think ventral scales would be a poor way to determine if a snake had evolved to a life on newspaper as snakes from all types of environment are more or less the same in that regard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
Don't take this the wrong way, but you're acting as if Royals are a hard species to keep. Anyone with half a brain cell can keep them, hence why they're often touted as a 'starter' snake.
Another "don't take this the wrong way" followed by an insult - surprise, surprise. You should start telling people to take it the wrong way if you aren't intentionally insulting them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
Anyone with half a brain cell can keep hots, even Gabbies or Rhino's. Which, by the way, are not "burrowers". They are slow and sluggish and like to hide in leaves or brush. They are ambush hunters. Hence the pretty colors and patterns which help them blend into the leaves on the ground.
I don't think it takes much smarts at all to do something that's already been done. It's a matter of following directions - about as hard as tracing a picture, if a bit more involved.
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Question?
If every single snake ever captured in the wild here, or imported into the United States HAD to be kept in a naturalistic enclosure, do you really think we would have so many animals to enjoy now?
While I do agree that no snake deserves a poor enclosure that does not meet it's basic needs, I find your insistence that they all need a naturalistic enclosure ridiculous.
Until you can provide me with copies of brain activity from a snake of any kind kept in an expensive and impressive natural enclosure and copies of brain activity from the same type of snake kept in a tub on newspaper and you can PROVE the naturalistic enclosure is without a doubt a necessity, I continue to say you are making your snakes more human that what they are. Period. Just because it is pleasing to you, you cannot prove it is more pleasing to the snake. You can claim it is, but not prove it.
Having had experience with keeping ball pythons in large and expensive highly decorated and very attractive enclosures, AND experience with keeping them in tubs in a rack system. I can say that with my own animals, as long as the environmental needs were met, they didn't care two figs how large or fancy or small and plain their enclosures were. Now, I myself found it took much more effort on my part to maintain said environmental needs in large and fancy enclosures. This constant and excessive effort began to diminish my enjoyment of my snakes. Over time, I began slacking off in maintenance and my snakes suffered for it. When I realized I was becoming one of those people who neglect their snakes to the point of poor health, I decided snake keeping was not for me.
A few years later, I decided to try again. This time, with knowledge gleaned from extensive research, I decided to give a rack and tub system a try. I found maintenance so much easier, and meeting environmental needs so much less time consuming, I could devote more time to enjoying my animals. Now tell me, as long as my snakes basic needs of food, shelter, temperature and humidity, and cleanliness are being met, why is a rack system so wrong? If my ball pythons required a swingset in their tub to have their needs met, then I guess I'd have to go with a big enclosure, but to my knowledge they don't use swings, so why is how I do things so very wrong?
If you can prove beyond a doubt that any snake NEEDS a natural enclosure, I'd be very interested to see your results and how they were reached. Since you cannot do this, I am disinclined to acquiesce to your request I change how I keep my snakes. If you can prove that a ball python kept in a naturalistic enclosure is one bit happier or healthier than one kept in a correctly maintained tub, please post your findings for us all to study, and then perhaps you can convince us how we do things is not suitable. Until such time, I will continue to keep my animals as I see fit, and you keep your as you see fit. But kindly stop beating people over the head with your opinion.
Gale
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:grouphug::teamwork::community:relax: some needed smilies...if only this forum had the popcorn one
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridinandreptiles
:grouphug::teamwork::community:relax: some needed smilies...if only this forum had the popcorn one
You mean the :popcorn: one?
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capray
You mean the :popcorn: one?
i totally didnt see that
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by FIREBLADE
Wow I didn't intend to cause a war just get some opinions and way's to make none reptile people understand somewhat of why things are done a certain way.
I don't think there is one way that fits all but I do believe getting input from people who have kept them successfully Ball Pythons that is for me anyway is important I like learning and finding better ways.
Which is why I joined in the first place to meet people and discuss the care of Ball Pythons.
I hope you got your answer before the thread got hijacked :) My daughter bp stays in the hide all day long, and sometimes at night I see her exloring the 10g. I plan on getting a large enclosure so my daughter will hopefully stay engaged in her animal care, but tubs in racks seem fine as well. Best wishes!
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I find it interesting that - to use the term of a long departed member on BP-Net whom I enjoyed immensely - the current dogma decrees that we can bash glass tanks and setups that are deemed too large , but when someone has the gall to speak in the same tone about tupperware or rubbermaid we get our collective panties in a tight wedgie.
Yes, ball pythons are nocturnal, yes ball pythons like the security of an enclosed space and yes a piece of tupperware cuts the straightest path to providing an almost idiot proof solution.
But, ball pythons do emerge from their mounds and burrows during the night and among other things they actively hunt, climb trees (yes climb trees) and roam in search of prey, mates, water, etc.
So as long as someone correctly provides for the essential security requirements in a larger, naturalistic vivarium, then, in my humble opinion, they have improved upon the simple tupperware container.
Keep this in mind when touting the mighty plastic tub as a snake husbandry tool:
Oftentimes, we tend to recommend what works for ball pythons to people seeking info on keeping other species. I have sold cribos and other colubrids to people who have been brainwashed that they can be kept in a plastic box. Anyone who keeps large pits also is aware that they can reach sizes at adulthood that negate the possibility of cramming them into all but the largest piece of houseware (the VE175), yet a simple search on this forum will see that what works for the Linus Van Pelts (ball pythons) of the snake world is often inflicted on other species that need space to be healthy.
The routine and predictable bashers of the large enclosure or glass tank are collectively more guilty of ignorant and mind-numbing intolerance than our new friend, Crotalids. Outside of the cozy confines of BP-Net there exists a whole world of herpers who gently poke fun at the ponzi cult of the mutant royal python and the often simplistic and basic ways they are kept. Again, these husbandry practices are fine and serve the basic needs of the species, but a more comprehensive and naturally correct setup would include a larger enclosure that incorporates ALL of the husbandry parameters - including a humid and secure retreat.
Even in the 60s and 70s there were behavioral studies done on how husbandry affects the stress levels of reptiles. The psychological and physiological studies documented how in smaller enclosures, routine husbandry actions lead to greater measured stress levels. Greater, yes, detrimental - no.
In short, zookeepers and even the esteemed Mr. Conant observed that a larger vivaria with more space often lessened the stress associated with cleaning, as it allowed for slightly less strict cleaning regimes which prevented the elimination of familiar smells during cleaning. In other words, the health risks associated with leaving traces of fecal material in a large enclosure were lessened, and that when a snake could still smell his own funk after cleaning, the animal was less stressed.
In other words, in the case of BP-Net vs. Mr. Crotalids, both parties are guilty of being judgmental and yet both parties make valid points. Unfortunately, neither party is 100% correct. One party espouses the efficient use of space to provide the bare necessities for success with the aim being economy and ultimately convenience to the keeper, and the other is passionately (and maybe a little aggressively) stating that the goal of the keeper should be to exceed, not just meet the goal.
I find it a bit Quixotic that when faced with the dilemma of housing two ball pythons in one enclosure, the collective dogma screeches in protest that the only reason for doing so is for the benefit of the keeper. However when someone touts the use of a naturalistic enclosure or a large (gasp!) glass tank, they also also wail about how it is not optimal for the keeper. In other words, the masses cannot coherently reason outside of the box - or in this case the tupperware tub.
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by ewaldrep
I hope you got your answer before the thread got hijacked :) My daughter bp stays in the hide all day long, and sometimes at night I see her exloring the 10g. I plan on getting a large enclosure so my daughter will hopefully stay engaged in her animal care, but tubs in racks seem fine as well. Best wishes!
Yes thanks and even got some of my friends to understand now there just stuck on that people are actually owning poisonous snakes lol
Well it gave them something new to talk about:)
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
First of all, you can keep venomous in a tub. The venom extraction facilities do exactly this, due to the need to cram in as many animals as possible for the extractions. They have a valid reason. For using small enclosures.
You cannot tell me a ball python wouldn't appreciate a larger naturalistic enclosure. I have friends with Royals in 5ft Vivs that feed perfectly well and are active.
I will always disagree with you on this. As I will never keep any of my animals in a small enclosure, or an enclosure that doesn't represent their natural habitat. If I ever did, that would be the day I stop keeping reptiles.
There is no reason why a snake would grow faster in a smaller enclosure with the same food, apart from less exercise. A smaller space doesn't suddenly increase the nutritional value of the feeder.
People say Gaboon vipers are animals that are stressed very easily. Yet I have my two babies in 2ft tubs when they're less than a foot in size. But neither has ever shown a sign of stress. If the set up is correct, no animal will stress even if they viv is 200ft.
I'm not saying its wrong, but it shows a lack of passion in my eyes.
I agree with the natural viv. I built a five foot termite mound in my living room. I also release asf's periodically to simulate the natural environment of Africa. Sometimes they won't eat when the hyenas scare them back in. Now my RTB'S that's another story.:D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvmyballs
I agree with the natural viv. I built a five foot termite mound in my living room. I also release asf's periodically to simulate the natural environment of Africa. Sometimes they won't eat when the hyenas scare them back in. Now my RTB'S that's another story.:D
LMAO
Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiploder
I find it interesting that - to use the term of a long departed member on BP-Net whom I enjoyed immensely - the current dogma decrees that we can bash glass tanks and setups that are deemed too large , but when someone has the gall to speak in the same tone about tupperware or rubbermaid we get our collective panties in a tight wedgie.
Yes, ball pythons are nocturnal, yes ball pythons like the security of an enclosed space and yes a piece of tupperware cuts the straightest path to providing an almost idiot proof solution.
But, ball pythons do emerge from their mounds and burrows during the night and among other things they actively hunt, climb trees (yes climb trees) and roam in search of prey, mates, water, etc.
So as long as someone correctly provides for the essential security requirements in a larger, naturalistic vivarium, then, in my humble opinion, they have improved upon the simple tupperware container.
Keep this in mind when touting the mighty plastic tub as a snake husbandry tool:
Oftentimes, we tend to recommend what works for ball pythons to people seeking info on keeping other species. I have sold cribos and other colubrids to people who have been brainwashed that they can be kept in a plastic box. Anyone who keeps large pits also is aware that they can reach sizes at adulthood that negate the possibility of cramming them into all but the largest piece of houseware (the VE175), yet a simple search on this forum will see that what works for the Linus Van Pelts (ball pythons) of the snake world is often inflicted on other species that need space to be healthy.
The routine and predictable bashers of the large enclosure or glass tank are collectively more guilty of ignorant and mind-numbing intolerance than our new friend, Crotalids. Outside of the cozy confines of BP-Net there exists a whole world of herpers who gently poke fun at the ponzi cult of the mutant royal python and the often simplistic and basic ways they are kept. Again, these husbandry practices are fine and serve the basic needs of the species, but a more comprehensive and naturally correct setup would include a larger enclosure that incorporates ALL of the husbandry parameters - including a humid and secure retreat.
Even in the 60s and 70s there were behavioral studies done on how husbandry affects the stress levels of reptiles. The psychological and physiological studies documented how in smaller enclosures, routine husbandry actions lead to greater measured stress levels. Greater, yes, detrimental - no.
In short, zookeepers and even the esteemed Mr. Conant observed that a larger vivaria with more space often lessened the stress associated with cleaning, as it allowed for slightly less strict cleaning regimes which prevented the elimination of familiar smells during cleaning. In other words, the health risks associated with leaving traces of fecal material in a large enclosure were lessened, and that when a snake could still smell his own funk after cleaning, the animal was less stressed.
In other words, in the case of BP-Net vs. Mr. Crotalids, both parties are guilty of being judgmental and yet both parties make valid points. Unfortunately, neither party is 100% correct. One party espouses the efficient use of space to provide the bare necessities for success with the aim being economy and ultimately convenience to the keeper, and the other is passionately (and maybe a little aggressively) stating that the goal of the keeper should be to exceed, not just meet the goal.
I find it a bit Quixotic that when faced with the dilemma of housing two ball pythons in one enclosure, the collective dogma screeches in protest that the only reason for doing so is for the benefit of the keeper. However when someone touts the use of a naturalistic enclosure or a large (gasp!) glass tank, they also also wail about how it is not optimal for the keeper. In other words, the masses cannot coherently reason outside of the box - or in this case the tupperware tub.
And Skip again, probably has the best post in the thread :salute:
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
First, I want to thank Skiploder for summarizing pretty much a lot of what I would've been typing up now. I applaud your points both valid, factual, and otherwise. We shouldn't be shunned for using tanks anymore than those who shun rack users.
Every snake has different needs, that vary, and we should try to accommodate that as best as we can. I'm not pointing fingers in the following rant of my opinion, because it is that, mostly my opinion of how I choose to raise my snakes personally. Though a lot of it i am basing off facts, studies, and other various truthful sources. You are not required to do as I do after reading this, so don't fret.
Basically, it is not fair or just to say one a tub/rack system or a tank is THE right way, that's the rule, and that's the way it is. There are a lot of things you should take into consideration before what I think is often a "cop-out" for lazier or more selfish keepers who choose racks for convenience or space commodities, not for the well-being of the snakes themselves. After all, in my opinion THAT should be the most important aspect, I mean correct me if I'm way off here, but the most important aspect should not be the convenience, space saving features, etc of racks alone. Or the display features of tanks alone. I am well aware that some species can do better in racks. Sometimes yes. but when considering a rack or a tank, you must consider your snake first, and it's individual needs. Not every ball python does best in a rack, I'm sorry, I won't and can't agree that is the rule, bottomline. I've seen and know of plenty of Ball Pythons thriving, eating well, shedding well, displaying natural mating, brumation, or other healthy behaviors in larger tanks, just fine. And GASP, they can and do eat in tanks, also. If you want to get into other species, Garters (thamnophis) species for example, absolutely do not do better in racks, are known to stop feeding in them, and are not as healthy because they are a diurnal snake who enjoy basking out in the open of a UVA/UVB bulb that replaces their sun in captivity. I'm not firmly against racks, but for the most part, I am. I think it is healthy, natural, and normal for a snake to have visual, auditory, tactile, and other natural stimulus, which they will not acquire inside an opaque container surrounded on 3/4 sides by containing walls, with no light, or often anything that matter besides some newspaper, and a water-bowl. "Because they don't need it." Or "they will just make a mess of your hard work if you try to decorate their enclosure with a natural decor." - Some of the excuses I've heard. I've seen racks so small the snake probably had to go to either the warm side, or cool side and stay there until their defecation was found, just to avoid contact with it, and barely had enough room to do so. I can't nobley agree with such tiny enclosures. What do you think snakes do in the wild??? Captive bred or not, they still have many instincts intact. In the wild snakes have been recorded through tracking devices and studdies to travel 20+ miles even. Do you think they shat themselves when they reach the end of a block of grass or ground matter of any sort more than 18 x 18" and think "Oh no, this is too much space!" Panic, then die? I believe a lot has to do with how they are raised. All of my snakes were raised in tanks. They are all healthy, show signs of contentment, normal behavior, actively eat, shed immaculately, ovulate, prep for brumation, or mating season, etc etc. All in surprise: tanks! I'm not saying my method is right, yours is wrong, end of chapter. But racks are nor personally an enclosure style I would resort too, unless forced to, for a short and temporary time, basically. If you raise your captive bred snakes in racks, I can only assume yes, they will be accustomed to racks, and living in bins. I'm not pointing a finger here, I've seen racks that were spacious, had clear and open sides so the snakes could see out, etc. Not so horrible as most. But I will say I think it comes down to effort, convenience, affordable space, and sometimes yes even laziness. I hear people say "Tanks are crappy and horrible, they don't hold humidity or proper heat, and they blah blah blah." Well if your snake's humidity is low or it's temps are, you do realize there are cures for that, right? If you are not solely doing a rack system for your own convenience, and truly have your snakes' best interests', not your own, at heart, then I can not condemn such a situational rack by defintion and default. But if you are just lazy, selfish in that you don't care to sacrifice any of your personal space to own multiple snakes, etc, no I can't agree. And even so in these two variations, I would only agree with a somewhat spacious, clear, unconfined bin, rack system. But still consider things, like the species, are they diurnal, nocturnal, or crepuscular, or a variation of two? And other variables like that. But personally I will always go for a more natural enclosure with substrate to burrow in, hides for each side, climbing apparatus' for everyone but the fossorial (who simply shows no interest in climbing, and often falls easily. But even she has natural terrain of different varying heights such as a chunk of short wood here and there, a flatter rock over there or there, and different depths of substrate to explore.) In the end, my whole point of this rant, which I really don't want anyone to take striking offense to, honestly I don't, is that do in the end what is best for the snakes first always. I think if you are trying to do that, you are at least trying.
(By the way, yes, snakes hear, and not just through ground vibrations. Want proof: Google the article "Vibrating Jaws Help Snakes Hear" which is a study posted on what I'm pretty positive is Science Now about studies done, proving they hear ambient air sounds as well, based on brainwave activity resulting from ambient sound stimuli and in comparison to ground vibrations stimuli, to summarize. Great article, check it out!)
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Wow, I was wondering why this became so popular. Now I know.
To be quite frank, I believe that the lack of respect and the condescending behaviour shown by some people within this thread is quite disgusting.
I do everything better than you. Got it? You lack passion. My animals are healthier than yours. Etc etc. Absolute bollocks. Do you even realize what you sound like?
I have never been a part of a more passionate community than the one at BP.net.
Have fun trying to fit in with the community after posting in this thread, buddy. :colbert:
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatandDiallo
Wow, I was wondering why this became so popular. Now I know.
To be quite frank, I believe that the lack of respect and the condescending behaviour shown by some people within this thread is quite disgusting.
I do everything better than you. Got it? You lack passion. My animals are healthier than yours. Etc etc. Absolute bollocks. Do you even realize what you sound like?
I have never been a part of a more passionate community than the one at BP.net.
Have fun trying to fit in with the community after posting in this thread, buddy. :colbert:
Who are you speaking towards?
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
By the way, since my post was last, if I'm the "buddy": I don't come to forums to make friends or fit in, I come to find factual, evidentiary, truthful, realistic, and otherwise TRUE information. When older or more experienced herpers, etc, tell the novices that racks are the only way to do something, tanks are crappy enclosures, and what not, it pisses me off. Because that's an opinion, not a fact. I stated from the beginning that this was all basically my opinion with some factual evidence too. But don't tell novices they have to keep their snakes in racks or they won't eat, or they will stress out, etc etc etc, and expect people not to react slightly emotionally driven. If you want to make friends, kiss all the tushie you want by sugar coating your own misguided opinions,fine whatever, but I won't be doing so. I'm here to learn, not form a comradery with the cliques that have formed amongst you all. Do YOU know how YOU sound? What's bollocks is that some people are too lazy to get off their rear and mist their snakes, monitor their temps, and allow their snakes room to have some stimulation and freedom because they are selfish 9/10 times. THAT is bollocks. If you can't be bothered with giving your snakes decent enclosures, or misting, buying an auto-mister, or monitoring temps, etc, don't bother AT ALL. I think you fail to see the attitude you just displayed in your comments. And now after just wanting to offer how I do things, why, and my personal opinion on the subject, you've brought out the beastial side in me. Thanks.
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by TessadasExotics
hmmm ok they have a low venom toxicity. Clinical aspects of envenoming by Bitis Nasicornis
It is not only the yield but the potency of the venom. There care is very similar. As far as stress goes in the B. Nasicornis...... My ball pythons stress easier than any of our Rhino's did.
Unfortunately Venomoids are not legal to own here in CT. When we did we lived in Texas. One day we will move back to TX and will get back into Rhino's as they are one of my favorite snakes.
I have had more problems keeping Ball Pythons than we ever did with Rhino's. Go figure.
No it is not a potent venom. What the hell would you call venom from snakes such a Naja nivea if you think nasicornis venom is potent?!
It's LD50 is low.
http://images.www.mpbio.com/docs/msd...12-EN-ANSI.pdf
http://www.toxinology.net/zoobase/Ex...nasicornis.pdf
It's lower than Gaboon's which are known not to have a potent venom, but just copious amounts of it.
Please do go back and answer my other questions, because the care of the three species i mentioned is not the same. If you keep nasicornis the same way as you keep gabonica you will kill them. Maybe if you worked with them, you have some pictures? You must, who wouldn't take pictures of their collection they're working with..
Quote:
Originally Posted by John1982
I'd love to see your data on the neurological activity in snakes kept in naturalistic vivaria as opposed to plain and simple. In lieu of said studies I'll accept an explanation as to why you can make assumptions in regards to the "happiness" of your animals whereas we can not.
Disagree, I can't remember ever hearing of someone unintentionally introducing snake mites from their daily newspaper.
Race, really?
More chuckles how every time you mention "not an insult" or "don't take this the wrong way" it's invariably followed by an insult.
Your crusade that turned this thread into a debate would have been better served in a thread of your own. Can you honestly say that you didn't predict this outcome? Can't say I'm upset though, I've enjoyed the read thus far.
Wrong, there are plenty of sight hunters that can often be found in large, open spaces - racers and coachwhips immediately come to mind.
I think ventral scales would be a poor way to determine if a snake had evolved to a life on newspaper as snakes from all types of environment are more or less the same in that regard.
Another "don't take this the wrong way" followed by an insult - surprise, surprise. You should start telling people to take it the wrong way if you aren't intentionally insulting them.
I don't think it takes much smarts at all to do something that's already been done. It's a matter of following directions - about as hard as tracing a picture, if a bit more involved.
As a snake keeper you should know that mites don't have to come from the substrate. When i went on holiday i took my snakes to a friends house, who keeps his snakes on paper etc - my snakes came back with mites!
None of it has been an insult, it is an opinion, one that you lot should be trying to change. Like i said earlier being offended doesn't hold any water and doesn't solve anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by angllady2
Question?
If every single snake ever captured in the wild here, or imported into the United States HAD to be kept in a naturalistic enclosure, do you really think we would have so many animals to enjoy now?
While I do agree that no snake deserves a poor enclosure that does not meet it's basic needs, I find your insistence that they all need a naturalistic enclosure ridiculous.
Until you can provide me with copies of brain activity from a snake of any kind kept in an expensive and impressive natural enclosure and copies of brain activity from the same type of snake kept in a tub on newspaper and you can PROVE the naturalistic enclosure is without a doubt a necessity, I continue to say you are making your snakes more human that what they are. Period. Just because it is pleasing to you, you cannot prove it is more pleasing to the snake. You can claim it is, but not prove it.
Having had experience with keeping ball pythons in large and expensive highly decorated and very attractive enclosures, AND experience with keeping them in tubs in a rack system. I can say that with my own animals, as long as the environmental needs were met, they didn't care two figs how large or fancy or small and plain their enclosures were. Now, I myself found it took much more effort on my part to maintain said environmental needs in large and fancy enclosures. This constant and excessive effort began to diminish my enjoyment of my snakes. Over time, I began slacking off in maintenance and my snakes suffered for it. When I realized I was becoming one of those people who neglect their snakes to the point of poor health, I decided snake keeping was not for me.
A few years later, I decided to try again. This time, with knowledge gleaned from extensive research, I decided to give a rack and tub system a try. I found maintenance so much easier, and meeting environmental needs so much less time consuming, I could devote more time to enjoying my animals. Now tell me, as long as my snakes basic needs of food, shelter, temperature and humidity, and cleanliness are being met, why is a rack system so wrong? If my ball pythons required a swingset in their tub to have their needs met, then I guess I'd have to go with a big enclosure, but to my knowledge they don't use swings, so why is how I do things so very wrong?
If you can prove beyond a doubt that any snake NEEDS a natural enclosure, I'd be very interested to see your results and how they were reached. Since you cannot do this, I am disinclined to acquiesce to your request I change how I keep my snakes. If you can prove that a ball python kept in a naturalistic enclosure is one bit happier or healthier than one kept in a correctly maintained tub, please post your findings for us all to study, and then perhaps you can convince us how we do things is not suitable. Until such time, I will continue to keep my animals as I see fit, and you keep your as you see fit. But kindly stop beating people over the head with your opinion.
Gale
I can't provide you with that information, i have already stated that. But because i can't means people just assume they don't prefer a naturalistic enclosure and shove them in empty boxes? Surely that is just as ridiculous as my elaborate enclosures...
I don't see how cleaning can make your 'passion' for snakes go away. I would clean my snakes for 4 hours a day if that's what it took to keep their enclosures in a healthy order, after all i am passionate about my snakes...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiploder
I find it interesting that - to use the term of a long departed member on BP-Net whom I enjoyed immensely - the current dogma decrees that we can bash glass tanks and setups that are deemed too large , but when someone has the gall to speak in the same tone about tupperware or rubbermaid we get our collective panties in a tight wedgie.
Yes, ball pythons are nocturnal, yes ball pythons like the security of an enclosed space and yes a piece of tupperware cuts the straightest path to providing an almost idiot proof solution.
But, ball pythons do emerge from their mounds and burrows during the night and among other things they actively hunt, climb trees (yes climb trees) and roam in search of prey, mates, water, etc.
So as long as someone correctly provides for the essential security requirements in a larger, naturalistic vivarium, then, in my humble opinion, they have improved upon the simple tupperware container.
Keep this in mind when touting the mighty plastic tub as a snake husbandry tool:
Oftentimes, we tend to recommend what works for ball pythons to people seeking info on keeping other species. I have sold cribos and other colubrids to people who have been brainwashed that they can be kept in a plastic box. Anyone who keeps large pits also is aware that they can reach sizes at adulthood that negate the possibility of cramming them into all but the largest piece of houseware (the VE175), yet a simple search on this forum will see that what works for the Linus Van Pelts (ball pythons) of the snake world is often inflicted on other species that need space to be healthy.
The routine and predictable bashers of the large enclosure or glass tank are collectively more guilty of ignorant and mind-numbing intolerance than our new friend, Crotalids. Outside of the cozy confines of BP-Net there exists a whole world of herpers who gently poke fun at the ponzi cult of the mutant royal python and the often simplistic and basic ways they are kept. Again, these husbandry practices are fine and serve the basic needs of the species, but a more comprehensive and naturally correct setup would include a larger enclosure that incorporates ALL of the husbandry parameters - including a humid and secure retreat.
Even in the 60s and 70s there were behavioral studies done on how husbandry affects the stress levels of reptiles. The psychological and physiological studies documented how in smaller enclosures, routine husbandry actions lead to greater measured stress levels. Greater, yes, detrimental - no.
In short, zookeepers and even the esteemed Mr. Conant observed that a larger vivaria with more space often lessened the stress associated with cleaning, as it allowed for slightly less strict cleaning regimes which prevented the elimination of familiar smells during cleaning. In other words, the health risks associated with leaving traces of fecal material in a large enclosure were lessened, and that when a snake could still smell his own funk after cleaning, the animal was less stressed.
In other words, in the case of BP-Net vs. Mr. Crotalids, both parties are guilty of being judgmental and yet both parties make valid points. Unfortunately, neither party is 100% correct. One party espouses the efficient use of space to provide the bare necessities for success with the aim being economy and ultimately convenience to the keeper, and the other is passionately (and maybe a little aggressively) stating that the goal of the keeper should be to exceed, not just meet the goal.
I find it a bit Quixotic that when faced with the dilemma of housing two ball pythons in one enclosure, the collective dogma screeches in protest that the only reason for doing so is for the benefit of the keeper. However when someone touts the use of a naturalistic enclosure or a large (gasp!) glass tank, they also also wail about how it is not optimal for the keeper. In other words, the masses cannot coherently reason outside of the box - or in this case the tupperware tub.
Fantastic post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by luvmyballs
I agree with the natural viv. I built a five foot termite mound in my living room. I also release asf's periodically to simulate the natural environment of Africa. Sometimes they won't eat when the hyenas scare them back in. Now my RTB'S that's another story.:D
Why not? That horridus viv i posted earlier, was made specifically for a friends pair i was looking after. They weren't even my snakes!
Quote:
Originally Posted by visceralrepulsion
First, I want to thank Skiploder for summarizing pretty much a lot of what I would've been typing up now. I applaud your points both valid, factual, and otherwise. We shouldn't be shunned for using tanks anymore than those who shun rack users.
Every snake has different needs, that vary, and we should try to accommodate that as best as we can. I'm not pointing fingers in the following rant of my opinion, because it is that, mostly my opinion of how I choose to raise my snakes personally. Though a lot of it i am basing off facts, studies, and other various truthful sources. You are not required to do as I do after reading this, so don't fret.
Basically, it is not fair or just to say one a tub/rack system or a tank is THE right way, that's the rule, and that's the way it is. There are a lot of things you should take into consideration before what I think is often a "cop-out" for lazier or more selfish keepers who choose racks for convenience or space commodities, not for the well-being of the snakes themselves. After all, in my opinion THAT should be the most important aspect, I mean correct me if I'm way off here, but the most important aspect should not be the convenience, space saving features, etc of racks alone. Or the display features of tanks alone. I am well aware that some species can do better in racks. Sometimes yes. but when considering a rack or a tank, you must consider your snake first, and it's individual needs. Not every ball python does best in a rack, I'm sorry, I won't and can't agree that is the rule, bottomline. I've seen and know of plenty of Ball Pythons thriving, eating well, shedding well, displaying natural mating, brumation, or other healthy behaviors in larger tanks, just fine. And GASP, they can and do eat in tanks, also. If you want to get into other species, Garters (thamnophis) species for example, absolutely do not do better in racks, are known to stop feeding in them, and are not as healthy because they are a diurnal snake who enjoy basking out in the open of a UVA/UVB bulb that replaces their sun in captivity. I'm not firmly against racks, but for the most part, I am. I think it is healthy, natural, and normal for a snake to have visual, auditory, tactile, and other natural stimulus, which they will not acquire inside an opaque container surrounded on 3/4 sides by containing walls, with no light, or often anything that matter besides some newspaper, and a water-bowl. "Because they don't need it." Or "they will just make a mess of your hard work if you try to decorate their enclosure with a natural decor." - Some of the excuses I've heard. I've seen racks so small the snake probably had to go to either the warm side, or cool side and stay there until their defecation was found, just to avoid contact with it, and barely had enough room to do so. I can't nobley agree with such tiny enclosures. What do you think snakes do in the wild??? Captive bred or not, they still have many instincts intact. In the wild snakes have been recorded through tracking devices and studdies to travel 20+ miles even. Do you think they shat themselves when they reach the end of a block of grass or ground matter of any sort more than 18 x 18" and think "Oh no, this is too much space!" Panic, then die? I believe a lot has to do with how they are raised. All of my snakes were raised in tanks. They are all healthy, show signs of contentment, normal behavior, actively eat, shed immaculately, ovulate, prep for brumation, or mating season, etc etc. All in surprise: tanks! I'm not saying my method is right, yours is wrong, end of chapter. But racks are nor personally an enclosure style I would resort too, unless forced to, for a short and temporary time, basically. If you raise your captive bred snakes in racks, I can only assume yes, they will be accustomed to racks, and living in bins. I'm not pointing a finger here, I've seen racks that were spacious, had clear and open sides so the snakes could see out, etc. Not so horrible as most. But I will say I think it comes down to effort, convenience, affordable space, and sometimes yes even laziness. I hear people say "Tanks are crappy and horrible, they don't hold humidity or proper heat, and they blah blah blah." Well if your snake's humidity is low or it's temps are, you do realize there are cures for that, right? If you are not solely doing a rack system for your own convenience, and truly have your snakes' best interests', not your own, at heart, then I can not condemn such a situational rack by defintion and default. But if you are just lazy, selfish in that you don't care to sacrifice any of your personal space to own multiple snakes, etc, no I can't agree. And even so in these two variations, I would only agree with a somewhat spacious, clear, unconfined bin, rack system. But still consider things, like the species, are they diurnal, nocturnal, or crepuscular, or a variation of two? And other variables like that. But personally I will always go for a more natural enclosure with substrate to burrow in, hides for each side, climbing apparatus' for everyone but the fossorial (who simply shows no interest in climbing, and often falls easily. But even she has natural terrain of different varying heights such as a chunk of short wood here and there, a flatter rock over there or there, and different depths of substrate to explore.) In the end, my whole point of this rant, which I really don't want anyone to take striking offense to, honestly I don't, is that do in the end what is best for the snakes first always. I think if you are trying to do that, you are at least trying.
(By the way, yes, snakes hear, and not just through ground vibrations. Want proof: Google the article "Vibrating Jaws Help Snakes Hear" which is a study posted on what I'm pretty positive is Science Now about studies done, proving they hear ambient air sounds as well, based on brainwave activity resulting from ambient sound stimuli and in comparison to ground vibrations stimuli, to summarize. Great article, check it out!)
Can't agree with you more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by visceralrepulsion
By the way, since my post was last, if I'm the "buddy": I don't come to forums to make friends or fit in, I come to find factual, evidentiary, truthful, realistic, and otherwise TRUE information. When older or more experienced herpers, etc, tell the novices that racks are the only way to do something, tanks are crappy enclosures, and what not, it pisses me off. Because that's an opinion, not a fact. I stated from the beginning that this was all basically my opinion with some factual evidence too. But don't tell novices they have to keep their snakes in racks or they won't eat, or they will stress out, etc etc etc, and expect people not to react slightly emotionally driven. If you want to make friends, kiss all the tushie you want by sugar coating your own misguided opinions,fine whatever, but I won't be doing so. I'm here to learn, not form a comradery with the cliques that have formed amongst you all. Do YOU know how YOU sound? What's bollocks is that some people are too lazy to get off their rear and mist their snakes, monitor their temps, and allow their snakes room to have some stimulation and freedom because they are selfish 9/10 times. THAT is bollocks. If you can't be bothered with giving your snakes decent enclosures, or misting, buying an auto-mister, or monitoring temps, etc, don't bother AT ALL. I think you fail to see the attitude you just displayed in your comments. And now after just wanting to offer how I do things, why, and my personal opinion on the subject, you've brought out the beastial side in me. Thanks.
You're my type of person.:gj:
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
Almost identical? Far from it.
They are very different, in care requirements and in behavior. You have obviously not worked with Gaboons enough to witness a pissed off adult in full flow, they are NOT sluggish and slow. They may appear to be on the outside, but when they are in a bad mood they're one of the most formidable snakes on the planet. Ask any experienced venomous handler, if a Gaboon is 'Sluggish and slow'
Let me make sure I understand this.....you have never kept ball pythons, but know people who do - so that means by association, you know the best way to house ball pythons (after all - your way is right and everyone else is wrong - by your own admission).
But because someone didn't keep the exact animal you keep, then they couldn't possibly be able to debate with you about said animal....right?
And you also argue, how do we KNOW that our animals are happy the way that we keep them? Well - how do YOU know that yours are? How do you know that yours wouldn't be just as perfectly happy in a secure tub with newspaper that they can get under, water, and regular meals?
Just because yours is "prettier" and requires more work makes you more passionate as a keeper .... or wait - you said it doesn't take you more time, so it's not about tubs being "easier" that makes us less passionate since according to your calculations, it doesn't require more time to maintain them?
When I started out, I provided a naturalistic enclosure for some of my ball pythons, they went off feed, and roamed all the time - a sign of stress in ball pythons. When I moved those same animals to appropriately sized tubs with snug hides - they began to feed vigorously. It was my PASSION for these critters to not wish to see them stressed by the extra stimulation I was providing them and to choose to keep them in a way that I believe was better for MY animals.
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by visceralrepulsion
Who are you speaking towards?
BTW, you are not the "Buddy".
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
I would just like to say how I love that there are posters in this thread that made accounts JUST to post in this thread. Trying to tilt the scales much? One or two of your "friends" posting in your favor is not going to change the opinions (of your rudeness, condescending attitude, and your insults) of an entire ball python community. Please take your attacks elsewhere.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabernet
Let me make sure I understand this.....you have never kept ball pythons, but know people who do - so that means by association, you know the best way to house ball pythons (after all - your way is right and everyone else is wrong - by your own admission).
But because someone didn't keep the exact animal you keep, then they couldn't possibly be able to debate with you about said animal....right?
And you also argue, how do we KNOW that our animals are happy the way that we keep them? Well - how do YOU know that yours are? How do you know that yours wouldn't be just as perfectly happy in a secure tub with newspaper that they can get under, water, and regular meals?
Just because yours is "prettier" and requires more work makes you more passionate as a keeper .... or wait - you said it doesn't take you more time, so it's not about tubs being "easier" that makes us less passionate since according to your calculations, it doesn't require more time to maintain them?
When I started out, I provided a naturalistic enclosure for some of my ball pythons, they went off feed, and roamed all the time - a sign of stress in ball pythons. When I moved those same animals to appropriately sized tubs with snug hides - they began to feed vigorously. It was my PASSION for these critters to not wish to see them stressed by the extra stimulation I was providing them and to choose to keep them in a way that I believe was better for MY animals.
Let me get this right, you haven't bothered to read the thread properly. Otherwise you would have seen me state this is not solely directed at ball python keepers. I don't care what you keep, it's in general to inadequate housing (in my opinion), size and the way it is set up. Boa keepers do it, retic keepers do it, rattlesnake keepers do it, it doesn't matter what snake.
Yes by association, but this is one of my best friends. I've looked after his Royals when he was on holiday etc, but I haven't owned any myself, no.
And again, I've got nothing against tubs!
Well your naturalistic set up was obviously not set up correctly. Do you have any pictures of it? There are copious amounts of people who have my style set ups for royals and their snakes feed perfectly, because they're given more than adequate hiding space etc.
I don't know they're happy. I never will. However, I am of the view that if I'm going I replicate the temp's and humidity of the wild, I may as well replicate the environment they live in as closely as I possibly can. After all it cost's peanuts to set up a nice enclosure, if you're smart about it.
There are plenty of other things keepers should also do, like vary the diet of their animals. So many people just consistently feed their snakes the same old mice, mice, mice, mice. I mix it up, dependent on species obviously, but I use every food source available to me; chicks; mice; rats; quails, gerbils, lizards etc.
A lot of keepers don't also alter their feeding regimes, I never stick to a day to feed them. For example, my Gaboons were last fed 4 weeks ago. Next time round i might leave it 2.5 weeks, it's little things like this I believe can make your snakes more active and replicating the behaviour in the wild.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snakehobbyist
I would just like to say how I love that there are posters in this thread that made accounts JUST to post in this thread. Trying to tilt the scales much? One or two of your "friends" posting in your favor is not going to change the opinions (of your rudeness, condescending attitude, and your insults) of an entire ball python community. Please take your attacks elsewhere.
None of them are my friends, how about you get the mods to check their ip and see what country they're from? Seeing as I'm from Europe and don't have any friends in the states, thank you very much.
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I will keep this short and sweet. I have multiple bps and they are all kept in tub/rack system. I am not going to get involved with everyone else thinks or tell someone they are right or wrong, but what i can tell and show everyone is that - I have a bunch of bps and i have posted a picture of one of my pied females. She has lived in a tub on paper - and I dont know if you can tell but she is very happy and has no problem. :)
Let me also add the only photoshop involved is the white background. I did not edit anything within her.
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r...smileyface.jpg
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by hype1108
I will keep this short and sweet. I have multiple bps and they are all kept in tub/rack system. I am not going to get involved with everyone else thinks or tell someone they are right or wrong, but what i can tell and show everyone is that - I have a bunch of bps and i have posted a picture of one of my pied females. She has lived in a tub on paper - and I dont know if you can tell but she is very happy and has no problem. :)
Let me also add the only photoshop involved is the white background. I did not edit anything within her.
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r...smileyface.jpg
Haha! Is that honestly a 100% genuine picture? If so, that is amazing.
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It is I can take one of her in the tub with an iphone or something later. Its almost on her spine so as she moves it can be a smiley face, poker face or sad face. lol As she grows it does nothing but gets bigger and grows without getting distorted. Wish it was genetic - I could have my own line of smileys haha
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by visceralrepulsion
By the way, since my post was last, if I'm the "buddy": I don't come to forums to make friends or fit in, I come to find factual, evidentiary, truthful, realistic, and otherwise TRUE information. When older or more experienced herpers, etc, tell the novices that racks are the only way to do something, tanks are crappy enclosures, and what not, it pisses me off. Because that's an opinion, not a fact. I stated from the beginning that this was all basically my opinion with some factual evidence too. But don't tell novices they have to keep their snakes in racks or they won't eat, or they will stress out, etc etc etc, and expect people not to react slightly emotionally driven. If you want to make friends, kiss all the tushie you want by sugar coating your own misguided opinions,fine whatever, but I won't be doing so. I'm here to learn, not form a comradery with the cliques that have formed amongst you all. Do YOU know how YOU sound? What's bollocks is that some people are too lazy to get off their rear and mist their snakes, monitor their temps, and allow their snakes room to have some stimulation and freedom because they are selfish 9/10 times. THAT is bollocks. If you can't be bothered with giving your snakes decent enclosures, or misting, buying an auto-mister, or monitoring temps, etc, don't bother AT ALL. I think you fail to see the attitude you just displayed in your comments. And now after just wanting to offer how I do things, why, and my personal opinion on the subject, you've brought out the beastial side in me. Thanks.
Lol wow.
I think it's quite clear that I wasn't referring to you.
Way to go, champ.
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My snakes are in shoe boxes. I keep them on a bakers rack and use oil lanterns underneath to heat it all. So far taping the lids down works, and as long as I don't mist too much the shoe boxes don't get overly soggy. I use dried up banana peels for bedding since it's free (I eat a lot of bananas). I have been trying to get my balls onto eating ground beef, but for whatever reason no matter how much I rub the rat on it, they just won't strike it... I put it in a tube sock so that it doesn't squish out everywhere when they try to constrict it... any ideas on that?
Anyways,
Naturalistic enclosures are not good for snakes, as they will be exposed to parasites and predators in the wild, so I would have to put those in to make it as 'natural' as possible, you know? I don't want to have to do that. I love my snakes too much.
Also, I keep dart frogs in snow globes and try to inbreed as much as possible to hone in on the best traits. I also love hybridizing localities!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
No, I'm not talking about husbandry. I'm not saying every snake should be kept at 25degC am I? I'm saying every snake should be kept in a naturalistic enclosure. Me saying my way is right, is just my opinion, I don't see what's the problem there.
That's the problem, you can't be right and it be your opinion. Either it's your opinion, and that's how you choose to do things, or it's fact and you're right. Not both,
Browsing on Tapatalk from my iPhone :)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
There are plenty of other things keepers should also do, like vary the diet of their animals. So many people just consistently feed their snakes the same old mice, mice, mice, mice. I mix it up, dependent on species obviously, but I use every food source available to me; chicks; mice; rats; quails, gerbils, lizards etc.
I do this for my ferrets. I offer them a variety of prey - mice, rats, rabbits, chicks, quail, ducklings, and so on.
But my balls refuse other types of prey and only take rats and possibly mice. I've tried rabbits and chicks. I even scented them with their normal food. But no go. Balls are a lot more picky than other species. And you have to be careful about them getting hooked to an unwanted prey source like gerbils or hamsters(at least here in the states). Certain individuals can get 'addicted' to gerbils(example) and never take another prey item without great efforts to get them switched back. Feeding a gerbil isn't really economical in the long run and can be difficult to find(illegal in certain states).
If I had a boa or a more vigorous feeding species, I would probably mix it up. I wouldn't have to worry about them being picky ... But for my balls, I think I will stick with rats.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
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This thread should be clipped off and locked with Skiploder's post as the 'final word.'
Thanks.
Goodbye.
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiploder
In other words, in the case of BP-Net vs. Mr. Crotalids, both parties are guilty of being judgmental and yet both parties make valid points. Unfortunately, neither party is 100% correct. One party espouses the efficient use of space to provide the bare necessities for success with the aim being economy and ultimately convenience to the keeper, and the other is passionately (and maybe a little aggressively) stating that the goal of the keeper should be to exceed, not just meet the goal.
I find it a bit Quixotic that when faced with the dilemma of housing two ball pythons in one enclosure, the collective dogma screeches in protest that the only reason for doing so is for the benefit of the keeper. However when someone touts the use of a naturalistic enclosure or a large (gasp!) glass tank, they also also wail about how it is not optimal for the keeper. In other words, the masses cannot coherently reason outside of the box - or in this case the tupperware tub.
I think if Crotalids had just made his statement and not insulted everyone who uses bare bones setup this "discussion" wouldn't have turned into BP.net vs Crotalids. What has upset me (and I imagine a majority of BP.net) was the insinuation that because we use racks it is automatically assumed that the tubs are too small, we lack passion for our animals, are too lazy to maintain the naturalistic setup or any of the various other insults that were said.
I do believe that sometimes we become set in our ways, this isn't the first time I've seen a majority of BP.net turn against someone who posts something different from what they do, but again I don't think this would have turned into the utter chaos it has if Crotalids had phrased his opinion in a less insulting way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
There are plenty of other things keepers should also do, like vary the diet of their animals. So many people just consistently feed their snakes the same old mice, mice, mice, mice. I mix it up, dependent on species obviously, but I use every food source available to me; chicks; mice; rats; quails, gerbils, lizards etc.
A lot of keepers don't also alter their feeding regimes, I never stick to a day to feed them. For example, my Gaboons were last fed 4 weeks ago. Next time round i might leave it 2.5 weeks, it's little things like this I believe can make your snakes more active and replicating the behaviour in the wild.
As has already been stated, ball pythons have this annoying tendency to imprint on a certain food source which is why many keepers try to stick to rats. I personally am not willing to risk one or more of my snakes getting stuck on $8 gerbils or hamsters. I won't even feed ASF because I don't want to have to breed rodents in my 2 bedroom apartment.
As for keeping snakes on a feeding regime, ball pythons are prone to hunger strikes which is why I believe a lot of keepers feed once a week. My snakes don't always get fed on the same day, but I try to do it every 7-10 days. I would rather my snakes have some weight to them when they randomly decide to stop feeding, but hey maybe that's just me. :rolleyes:
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodieh
That's the problem, you can't be right and it be your opinion. Either it's your opinion, and that's how you choose to do things, or it's fact and you're right. Not both,
Browsing on Tapatalk from my iPhone :)
Sure, i think my way of keeping is right - that's my opinion. I'm not saying it's a fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by satomi325
I do this for my ferrets. I offer them a variety of prey - mice, rats, rabbits, chicks, quail, ducklings, and so on.
But my balls refuse other types of prey and only take rats and possibly mice. I've tried rabbits and chicks. I even scented them with their normal food. But no go. Balls are a lot more picky than other species. And you have to be careful about them getting hooked to an unwanted prey source like gerbils or hamsters(at least here in the states). Certain individuals can get 'addicted' to gerbils(example) and never take another prey item without great efforts to get them switched back. Feeding a gerbil isn't really economical in the long run and can be difficult to find(illegal in certain states).
If I had a boa or a more vigorous feeding species, I would probably mix it up. I wouldn't have to worry about them being picky ... But for my balls, I think I will stick with rats.
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Of course, hence why i said dependent on species, as i imagine most of you keep more than just Royal's.:gj:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinra
I think if Crotalids had just made his statement and not insulted everyone who uses bare bones setup this "discussion" wouldn't have turned into BP.net vs Crotalids. What has upset me (and I imagine a majority of BP.net) was the insinuation that because we use racks it is automatically assumed that the tubs are too small, we lack passion for our animals, are too lazy to maintain the naturalistic setup or any of the various other insults that were said.
I do believe that sometimes we become set in our ways, this isn't the first time I've seen a majority of BP.net turn against someone who posts something different from what they do, but again I don't think this would have turned into the utter chaos it has if Crotalids had phrased his opinion in a less insulting way.
As has already been stated, ball pythons have this annoying tendency to imprint on a certain food source which is why many keepers try to stick to rats. I personally am not willing to risk one or more of my snakes getting stuck on $8 gerbils or hamsters. I won't even feed ASF because I don't want to have to breed rodents in my 2 bedroom apartment.
As for keeping snakes on a feeding regime, ball pythons are prone to hunger strikes which is why I believe a lot of keepers feed once a week. My snakes don't always get fed on the same day, but I try to do it every 7-10 days. I would rather my snakes have some weight to them when they randomly decide to stop feeding, but hey maybe that's just me. :rolleyes:
Maybe you can post pictures of your racking set ups, and i will be able to see whether it's too small or not...
Many of you have stated that you don't do a naturalistic set up because of the time to maintain them, and the cost involved. Neither which is true, as they don't take long to maintain, and the cost is next to nothing. Obviously when they're youngsters they need to be fed on a more frequent basis in case they do go on a hunger strike. But adults can go a very long time without food, people just panic far too much.
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
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Maybe in your opinion a naturalistic enclosure is not expensive or hard to maintain, but in my opinion, it is. Cage furniture is not especially cheap (unless there is some reptile supply dollar store I don't know about?) and neither are nice display tanks, lights, and heating equipment.
As for maintenance, sure you can spot clean but you should also be doing a full clean every month or two. A full clean of 20+ enclosures would take me days by myself. I can clean out 20+ tubs and my rat colonies in a few hours.
If you want to provide your snakes with an "enriching" environment, that is totally cool. Me personally, I choose to give them a simple environment . Neither of us can confirm that the naturalistic environment actually gives the snake any sort of benefit. I'll keep doing what I do, and you keep doing what you do. I actually really like your naturalistic enclosures and I'd like to see more of them, or some info on what went into them and how you set it up.
Rather than sitting here and arguing about who is right and who is wrong, how about we share our knowledge? Your opinion isn't going to sway the majority, so why sit around and fight about it? :)
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ_Burton
My snakes are in shoe boxes. I keep them on a bakers rack and use oil lanterns underneath to heat it all. So far taping the lids down works, and as long as I don't mist too much the shoe boxes don't get overly soggy. I use dried up banana peels for bedding since it's free (I eat a lot of bananas). I have been trying to get my balls onto eating ground beef, but for whatever reason no matter how much I rub the rat on it, they just won't strike it... I put it in a tube sock so that it doesn't squish out everywhere when they try to constrict it... any ideas on that?
Anyways,
Naturalistic enclosures are not good for snakes, as they will be exposed to parasites and predators in the wild, so I would have to put those in to make it as 'natural' as possible, you know? I don't want to have to do that. I love my snakes too much.
Also, I keep dart frogs in snow globes and try to inbreed as much as possible to hone in on the best traits. I also love hybridizing localities!
TJ you are WAY off. :colbert:
What you should be doing is covering the insides of the shoeboxes with a collage of fine arts. Ball pythons appreciate the fine beauty of Monet (it de-stresses them). Although, I have a black pastel that goes absolutely BANANAS over Picasso. Something about the shapes make him feel more alive. You should also include some Kant, Aquinas, Pluto, etc, as snakes appreciate all philosophical outlooks. I often find mine debating; they say that the mental stimulation really gets their appetite going!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
Of course, hence why i said dependent on species, as i imagine most of you keep more than just Royal's.
Many of you have stated that you don't do a naturalistic set up because of the time to maintain them, and the cost involved. Neither which is true, as they don't take long to maintain, and the cost is next to nothing. Obviously when they're youngsters they need to be fed on a more frequent basis in case they do go on a hunger strike. But adults can go a very long time without food, people just panic far too much.
I only keep royals so I'm only referring to them.
As for rack vs naturalistic cage. While I can't answer for everyone, I'll answer for myself. I mentioned in a previous post that I chose racks because the snakes seem to do equally well in a rack compared to other enclosures. Maybe even better in some instances?
Maintaining a newspaper tub requires more frequent cleaning than one using organic substrate. When a snake soils their newspaper, you have to change it out entirely. I have to change newspaper once or twice a week for each of my snakes. Sometimes even more. I've used aspen before and that was easier to maintain. At least it was for me. Spot cleaning is easy to pick up on the spot and dumping bedding once a month. That was less work for me than newspaper. But both aren't difficult. I was just pointing out that paper needs more frequent maintenance. I'm a full time university student so money isn't growing on trees for me. I get newspaper for free from school so that helps a lot with costs. I also have limited (temporary) space so full blown display enclosures aren't logical right now.
But when I get my own house and have a steady income, I would eventually like to try a naturalistic enclosure for 2 or 3 of my more established, more confident royals. I don't think the rest would tolerate the change very well.
But I would definitely do a nice natural set up for other less sensitive species for sure.
From what I've seen from most other members here, they do the same with their non ball python animals.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinra
I think if Crotalids had just made his statement and not insulted everyone who uses bare bones setup this "discussion" wouldn't have turned into BP.net vs Crotalids. What has upset me (and I imagine a majority of BP.net) was the insinuation that because we use racks it is automatically assumed that the tubs are too small, we lack passion for our animals, are too lazy to maintain the naturalistic setup or any of the various other insults that were said.
I do believe that sometimes we become set in our ways, this isn't the first time I've seen a majority of BP.net turn against someone who posts something different from what they do, but again I don't think this would have turned into the utter chaos it has if Crotalids had phrased his opinion in a less insulting way.
I don't buy it. When given the opportunity, the army of geniuses who think that there is only one way to skin a cat rail against people who keep two snakes in one enclosure, use overheat heat emitters, use glass tanks, use pine bedding, etc. etc. Where's the 14 page manifesto debating that junk science point buy point?
Yep, Crotalids is coming on strong and probably won't get many "Thank Yous" when he posts a picture of himself in the bathroom mirror in one of the two leg-humping threads. Hopefully, he can live with that shame.
Frankly, as someone who writes rebuttals to all the pots that think tupperware is the only right way to keep a snake, belly heat is the only way to heat, that two snakes can't ever be cohabitated and that pine bedding is deadly, think that those pots need to stop calling out the one black kettle who is guilty of doing the same thing they do in day in and day out.
I have seen naturalistic set ups for many species of snakes - yes, even one where the keeper used a cermaic pot wrapped in papier mache to simulate a termite mount. I have seen snakes thrive in them. Are they harder to clean? Yes and no. Are they easier on the keeper? No, but as has been pointed out in the cohabbing thread, doing things for the convenience of the keeper is EVIL and shame on the poor idiot who dare to take a short cut for his, not the snake's, benefit.
Are they beneficial to the snake? That's the $64 question.......maybe, maybe not.
I have seen one of the finest practitioners in the art of keeping snakes keep his large colubrids in completely natural set ups, replete with live plants and small trees. I have seen how those animals interact with their environments.
I have seen the same species kept in rubbermaid and iris tubs and I have first hand heard people who keep them so argue that what's the point of a larger space when all they do is use their hide?
Well, given the space, these snakes look for food, utilize several thermoregulation zones, bury themselves in leaf litter, poke around in hollow logs and climb branches. The use their hides less and use their environment more.
When they aren't robotically stuffed with a fat rodent every week like clockwork, and instead have to look in their environments for different items in different places at differing time spans, they will actively "hunt". I'd make the argument that a properly executed naturalistic enclosure (without predators and parasites - duh) is superior to the ubiquitous tub.
Drop the hive mentality, drones. If Crotalids is giving you a dose of holier-than-thou-judgment, make him come correct. But a pox on you filthy hypocrites that are cheesed at him for taking a page from your effed up intolerance playbooks. Deal with the fact that the tub is a serviceable tool, a perfectly acceptable method of keeping SOME species of snakes, but that a properly done naturalistic environment is probably the ideal.
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiploder
I'd make the argument that a properly executed naturalistic enclosure (without predators and parasites - duh) is superior to the ubiquitous tub.
Please define in detail what a "properly executed naturalistic enclosure" is.
I am not trying to stir the pot, I am trying to help everyone define this extremely long and very poorly fought argument. (despite my two troll-ish posts)
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ_Burton
None of them are great to be honest, but better than an empty tub.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaorte
Maybe in your opinion a naturalistic enclosure is not expensive or hard to maintain, but in my opinion, it is. Cage furniture is not especially cheap (unless there is some reptile supply dollar store I don't know about?) and neither are nice display tanks, lights, and heating equipment.
As for maintenance, sure you can spot clean but you should also be doing a full clean every month or two. A full clean of 20+ enclosures would take me days by myself. I can clean out 20+ tubs and my rat colonies in a few hours.
If you want to provide your snakes with an "enriching" environment, that is totally cool. Me personally, I choose to give them a simple environment . Neither of us can confirm that the naturalistic environment actually gives the snake any sort of benefit. I'll keep doing what I do, and you keep doing what you do. I actually really like your naturalistic enclosures and I'd like to see more of them, or some info on what went into them and how you set it up.
Rather than sitting here and arguing about who is right and who is wrong, how about we share our knowledge? Your opinion isn't going to sway the majority, so why sit around and fight about it? :)
No ones fighting, well i'm not it's just a discussion :)
I do a full clean of my enclosures every month. Throw out all the substrate and replace it all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by satomi325
I only keep royals so I'm only referring to them.
As for rack vs naturalistic cage. While I can't answer for everyone, I'll answer for myself. I mentioned in a previous post that I chose racks because the snakes seem to do equally well in a rack compared to other enclosures. Maybe even better in some instances?
Maintaining a newspaper tub requires more frequent cleaning than one using organic substrate. When a snake soils their newspaper, you have to change it out entirely. I have to change newspaper once or twice a week for each of my snakes. Sometimes even more. I've used aspen before and that was easier to maintain. At least it was for me. Spot cleaning is easy to pick up on the spot and dumping bedding once a month. That was less work for me than newspaper. But both aren't difficult. I was just pointing out that paper needs more frequent maintenance. I'm a full time university student so money isn't growing on trees for me. I get newspaper for free from school so that helps a lot with costs. I also have limited (temporary) space so full blown display enclosures aren't logical right now.
But when I get my own house and have a steady income, I would eventually like to try a naturalistic enclosure for 2 or 3 of my more established, more confident royals. I don't think the rest would tolerate the change very well.
But I would definitely do a nice natural set up for other less sensitive species for sure.
From what I've seen from most other members here, they do the same with their non ball python animals.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Fair enough! I'm also a student.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiploder
I don't buy it. When given the opportunity, the army of geniuses who think that there is only one way to skin a cat rail against people who keep two snakes in one enclosure, use overheat heat emitters, use glass tanks, use pine bedding, etc. etc. Where's the 14 page manifesto debating that junk science point buy point?
Yep, Crotalids is coming on strong and probably won't get many "Thank Yous" when he posts a picture of himself in the bathroom mirror in one of the two leg-humping threads. Hopefully, he can live with that shame.
Frankly, as someone who writes rebuttals to all the pots that think tupperware is the only right way to keep a snake, belly heat is the only way to heat, that two snakes can't ever be cohabitated and that pine bedding is deadly, think that those pots need to stop calling out the one black kettle who is guilty of doing the same thing they do in day in and day out.
I have seen naturalistic set ups for many species of snakes - yes, even one where the keeper used a cermaic pot wrapped in papier mache to simulate a termite mount. I have seen snakes thrive in them. Are they harder to clean? Yes and no. Are they easier on the keeper? No, but as has been pointed out in the cohabbing thread, doing things for the convenience of the keeper is EVIL and shame on the poor idiot who dare to take a short cut for his, not the snake's, benefit.
Are they beneficial to the snake? That's the $64 question.......maybe, maybe not.
I have seen one of the finest practitioners in the art of keeping snakes keep his large colubrids in completely natural set ups, replete with live plants and small trees. I have seen how those animals interact with their environments.
I have seen the same species kept in rubbermaid and iris tubs and I have first hand heard people who keep them so argue that what's the point of a larger space when all they do is use their hide?
Well, given the space, these snakes look for food, utilize several thermoregulation zones, bury themselves in leaf litter, poke around in hollow logs and climb branches. The use their hides less and use their environment more.
When they aren't robotically stuffed with a fat rodent every week like clockwork, and instead have to look in their environments for different items in different places at differing time spans, they will actively "hunt". I'd make the argument that a properly executed naturalistic enclosure (without predators and parasites - duh) is superior to the ubiquitous tub.
Drop the hive mentality, drones. If Crotalids is giving you a dose of holier-than-thou-judgment, make him come correct. But a pox on you filthy hypocrites that are cheesed at him for taking a page from your effed up intolerance playbooks. Deal with the fact that the tub is a serviceable tool, a perfectly acceptable method of keeping SOME species of snakes, but that a properly done naturalistic environment is probably the ideal.
Didn't realise people actually care about thanks on a forum...They must live a boring life if they do.
A friend of mine keeps his rattlesnakes in tubs with nothing but a hide in there and bowl, and he's always said that his rattlesnakes are lazy. I'm not surprised..If you came and watched mine for a day or so, they are active, even after feeding. They regularly explore their surroundings, and i actually like to remove certain hides every now and then, and replace them with a different one. The effect is there to see, as pretty soon the snakes are out and about exploring their new surroundings.
Another thing that i can do with the snakes that don't hold onto their food, is after they've envenomated the prey, is to actually hide it. Forcing them to track it down, a lot of venomous keepers let the snake strike and leave it in front of them. I know non venomous keepers to do this, by making something they can hide food in and leave it in the viv at feeding time and let the snake pick up the scent and hunt down the prey item.
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Skip;
Honest question, as I am wondering about conflicting things I've read.
I thought it was generally not a good idea to put much vertical climbing area in for bps. As being thick bodied and generally clumsy with climbing they could injure themselves (falling). Is this not the case? I would add some climbing to my display tanks if that is true. Thanks for any information!
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by visceralrepulsion
By the way, since my post was last, if I'm the "buddy": I don't come to forums to make friends or fit in, I come to find factual, evidentiary, truthful, realistic, and otherwise TRUE information. When older or more experienced herpers, etc, tell the novices that racks are the only way to do something, tanks are crappy enclosures, and what not, it pisses me off. Because that's an opinion, not a fact. I stated from the beginning that this was all basically my opinion with some factual evidence too. But don't tell novices they have to keep their snakes in racks or they won't eat, or they will stress out, etc etc etc, and expect people not to react slightly emotionally driven. If you want to make friends, kiss all the tushie you want by sugar coating your own misguided opinions,fine whatever, but I won't be doing so. I'm here to learn, not form a comradery with the cliques that have formed amongst you all. Do YOU know how YOU sound? What's bollocks is that some people are too lazy to get off their rear and mist their snakes, monitor their temps, and allow their snakes room to have some stimulation and freedom because they are selfish 9/10 times. THAT is bollocks. If you can't be bothered with giving your snakes decent enclosures, or misting, buying an auto-mister, or monitoring temps, etc, don't bother AT ALL. I think you fail to see the attitude you just displayed in your comments. And now after just wanting to offer how I do things, why, and my personal opinion on the subject, you've brought out the beastial side in me. Thanks.
I'm at work skimming through this - may I please ask that you add paragraph breaks to your posts? :please:
I gave up on reading the first one and most of this one, because it was difficult to follow with one long block of streaming thought.
Your message may be lost in the method that you choose to deliver it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabernet
I'm at work skimming through this - may I please ask that you add paragraph breaks to your posts? :please:
I gave up on reading the first one and most of this one, because it was difficult to follow with one long block of streaming thought.
Your message may be lost in the method that you choose to deliver it.
Agreed. I gave up on it too.
Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2
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Re: OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
True. But like i stated earlier, Royals may not be active, but that's nothing compared to my Gaboons. Royals may also stress, also nothing compared to rhinoceros and nasicornis.
I'm on about their venom extraction facility. It's got nothing to do with being a 'baller', substrate isn't exactly expensive.
Haha! Well i'm definitely one of the people who doesn't take notice of someones opinion after all it's only words, what damage can words do? none. I've had people be racist to me before, i didn't get offended, i talked to them about it instead, to try and and make them see why it's wrong. Being offended doesn't solve anything.
:)
Last note: you talk about natural, realistically going to grab dirt and grass from where caught is natural not only that, the best substrate as well. So that natural talk should just be cut out. I for one ain't going to grab dirt n grass from Africa. Hey but I'll stoop to ur level and just say; at least I can sex my animals and hold them out for u to look at lol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
Sure, i think my way of keeping is right - that's my opinion. I'm not saying it's a fact.
Of course, hence why i said dependent on species, as i imagine most of you keep more than just Royal's.:gj:
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Maybe you can post pictures of your racking set ups, and i will be able to see whether it's too small or not...
Many of you have stated that you don't do a naturalistic set up because of the time to maintain them, and the cost involved. Neither which is true, as they don't take long to maintain, and the cost is next to nothing. Obviously when they're youngsters they need to be fed on a more frequent basis in case they do go on a hunger strike. But adults can go a very long time without food, people just panic far too much.
Proper discourse and debate constitutes that either you hold an opinion in a matter or factually you are correct. There is no middle ground. I'm honestly not sure that the words you're using mean what you think they mean.
Browsing on Tapatalk from my iPhone :)
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As much as I love reading a good argument, I think I'm just going to say this.
My mother doesn't really seem to understand why I keep Will in a tub. It's just really difficult for people who aren't in the hobby, or who aren't familiar with BPs to understand that this isn't a form of abuse or neglect. Will is strong, curious, healthy, and he's never refused a meal, so I figure that he's alright.
The main reason I keep him in a tub is ease of cleaning. I know it's selfish, but I just can't lift my large, 55 gallon tanks up off of the ground, tote them to the back door, clean them in the driveway (they won't fit in the bath), and haul them back inside. I'm small, and doing things like this has given me hernias in the past.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodieh
Proper discourse and debate constitutes that either you hold an opinion in a matter or factually you are correct. There is no middle ground. I'm honestly not sure that the words you're using mean what you think they mean.
Browsing on Tapatalk from my iPhone :)
You obviously cannot read properly then, as I said I think my way is right and that's my opinion. So in fact I do have an opinion, for a 'proper' debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingPythons
Last note: you talk about natural, realistically going to grab dirt and grass from where caught is natural not only that, the best substrate as well. So that natural talk should just be cut out. I for one ain't going to grab dirt n grass from Africa. Hey but I'll stoop to ur level and just say; at least I can sex my animals and hold them out for u to look at lol
You're just trying to take it to the extreme.
And what's your point about you can sex your animals and hold them out for me to look at? I know all the sexes of my snakes, and I can easily take them out. Some of those pictures taken on my other thread are outside the enclosure.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalids
Are you serious? Known to not have a potent venom?
The first link that you posted states this about B.Nasicornis "VERY TOXIC BY INTRAVENOUS AND INTRAMUSCULAR ROUTES". Fortunately not much is known about Bitis N. or B. G. because not very many people have been bitten by them, due to their calm and lazy nature. They usually only bite when stepped on or harassed. Most of their data is from mice and monkeys.
Worlds most venomous snakes
To say that a Bitis N's venom is not potent is ignorant. Sure its not as potent as say a Taipan, but it is far from being non fatal. They are more fatal than many venomous snakes, such as the Agkistrodon contortrix, or Crotalus atrox which both have a low toxicity level. The B.N. is actually in the middle, but the amount of venom is indeed also a factor, as they do inject far more than any other snake.
"Bites are relatively rare, due to their docile nature and because their range is mainly limited to rainforest areas. Due to their sluggishness and unwillingness to move even when approached, people are often bitten after they accidentally step on them, but even then in some cases they may not bite. However, when a bite does occur, it should always be considered a serious medical emergency. Even an average bite from an average-sized specimen is potentially fatal. Antivenin should be administered as soon as possible to save the victim's life if not the affected limb."
A study by Marsh and Whaler was done and found that the equivalent to 0.06 ml of venom, or 1/50 to 1/1000 of what can be obtained in a single milking. 35 mg (1/30 of the average venom yield) would be enough to kill a man of 150lbs.
As far as pictures, I wish that we did still have pictures of our Rhino's. They were very beautiful. Unfortunately that was years and a few computers ago and we no longer have any of them.
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