OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system

[Kodieh]

No, I'm not talking about husbandry. I'm not saying every snake should be kept at 25degC am I? I'm saying every snake should be kept in a naturalistic enclosure. Me saying my way is right, is just my opinion, I don't see what's the problem there.

That's the problem, you can't be right and it be your opinion. Either it's your opinion, and that's how you choose to do things, or it's fact and you're right. Not both,




Browsing on Tapatalk from my iPhone

[satomi325]

There are plenty of other things keepers should also do, like vary the diet of their animals. So many people just consistently feed their snakes the same old mice, mice, mice, mice. I mix it up, dependent on species obviously, but I use every food source available to me; chicks; mice; rats; quails, gerbils, lizards etc.

I do this for my ferrets. I offer them a variety of prey - mice, rats, rabbits, chicks, quail, ducklings, and so on.

But my balls refuse other types of prey and only take rats and possibly mice. I've tried rabbits and chicks. I even scented them with their normal food. But no go. Balls are a lot more picky than other species. And you have to be careful about them getting hooked to an unwanted prey source like gerbils or hamsters(at least here in the states). Certain individuals can get 'addicted' to gerbils(example) and never take another prey item without great efforts to get them switched back. Feeding a gerbil isn't really economical in the long run and can be difficult to find(illegal in certain states).
If I had a boa or a more vigorous feeding species, I would probably mix it up. I wouldn't have to worry about them being picky ... But for my balls, I think I will stick with rats.



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[MrLang]

This thread should be clipped off and locked with Skiploder's post as the 'final word.'

Thanks.
Goodbye.

[Kinra]

In other words, in the case of BP-Net vs. Mr. Crotalids, both parties are guilty of being judgmental and yet both parties make valid points. Unfortunately, neither party is 100% correct. One party espouses the efficient use of space to provide the bare necessities for success with the aim being economy and ultimately convenience to the keeper, and the other is passionately (and maybe a little aggressively) stating that the goal of the keeper should be to exceed, not just meet the goal.

I find it a bit Quixotic that when faced with the dilemma of housing two ball pythons in one enclosure, the collective dogma screeches in protest that the only reason for doing so is for the benefit of the keeper. However when someone touts the use of a naturalistic enclosure or a large (gasp!) glass tank, they also also wail about how it is not optimal for the keeper. In other words, the masses cannot coherently reason outside of the box - or in this case the tupperware tub.

I think if Crotalids had just made his statement and not insulted everyone who uses bare bones setup this "discussion" wouldn't have turned into BP.net vs Crotalids. What has upset me (and I imagine a majority of BP.net) was the insinuation that because we use racks it is automatically assumed that the tubs are too small, we lack passion for our animals, are too lazy to maintain the naturalistic setup or any of the various other insults that were said.

I do believe that sometimes we become set in our ways, this isn't the first time I've seen a majority of BP.net turn against someone who posts something different from what they do, but again I don't think this would have turned into the utter chaos it has if Crotalids had phrased his opinion in a less insulting way.

There are plenty of other things keepers should also do, like vary the diet of their animals. So many people just consistently feed their snakes the same old mice, mice, mice, mice. I mix it up, dependent on species obviously, but I use every food source available to me; chicks; mice; rats; quails, gerbils, lizards etc.

A lot of keepers don't also alter their feeding regimes, I never stick to a day to feed them. For example, my Gaboons were last fed 4 weeks ago. Next time round i might leave it 2.5 weeks, it's little things like this I believe can make your snakes more active and replicating the behaviour in the wild.

As has already been stated, ball pythons have this annoying tendency to imprint on a certain food source which is why many keepers try to stick to rats. I personally am not willing to risk one or more of my snakes getting stuck on $8 gerbils or hamsters. I won't even feed ASF because I don't want to have to breed rodents in my 2 bedroom apartment.

As for keeping snakes on a feeding regime, ball pythons are prone to hunger strikes which is why I believe a lot of keepers feed once a week. My snakes don't always get fed on the same day, but I try to do it every 7-10 days. I would rather my snakes have some weight to them when they randomly decide to stop feeding, but hey maybe that's just me.

[Crotalids]

That's the problem, you can't be right and it be your opinion. Either it's your opinion, and that's how you choose to do things, or it's fact and you're right. Not both,

Browsing on Tapatalk from my iPhone

Sure, i think my way of keeping is right - that's my opinion. I'm not saying it's a fact.

I do this for my ferrets. I offer them a variety of prey - mice, rats, rabbits, chicks, quail, ducklings, and so on.

But my balls refuse other types of prey and only take rats and possibly mice. I've tried rabbits and chicks. I even scented them with their normal food. But no go. Balls are a lot more picky than other species. And you have to be careful about them getting hooked to an unwanted prey source like gerbils or hamsters(at least here in the states). Certain individuals can get 'addicted' to gerbils(example) and never take another prey item without great efforts to get them switched back. Feeding a gerbil isn't really economical in the long run and can be difficult to find(illegal in certain states).
If I had a boa or a more vigorous feeding species, I would probably mix it up. I wouldn't have to worry about them being picky ... But for my balls, I think I will stick with rats.



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Of course, hence why i said dependent on species, as i imagine most of you keep more than just Royal's.

- - - Updated - - -

I think if Crotalids had just made his statement and not insulted everyone who uses bare bones setup this "discussion" wouldn't have turned into BP.net vs Crotalids. What has upset me (and I imagine a majority of BP.net) was the insinuation that because we use racks it is automatically assumed that the tubs are too small, we lack passion for our animals, are too lazy to maintain the naturalistic setup or any of the various other insults that were said.

I do believe that sometimes we become set in our ways, this isn't the first time I've seen a majority of BP.net turn against someone who posts something different from what they do, but again I don't think this would have turned into the utter chaos it has if Crotalids had phrased his opinion in a less insulting way.



As has already been stated, ball pythons have this annoying tendency to imprint on a certain food source which is why many keepers try to stick to rats. I personally am not willing to risk one or more of my snakes getting stuck on $8 gerbils or hamsters. I won't even feed ASF because I don't want to have to breed rodents in my 2 bedroom apartment.

As for keeping snakes on a feeding regime, ball pythons are prone to hunger strikes which is why I believe a lot of keepers feed once a week. My snakes don't always get fed on the same day, but I try to do it every 7-10 days. I would rather my snakes have some weight to them when they randomly decide to stop feeding, but hey maybe that's just me.

Maybe you can post pictures of your racking set ups, and i will be able to see whether it's too small or not...

Many of you have stated that you don't do a naturalistic set up because of the time to maintain them, and the cost involved. Neither which is true, as they don't take long to maintain, and the cost is next to nothing. Obviously when they're youngsters they need to be fed on a more frequent basis in case they do go on a hunger strike. But adults can go a very long time without food, people just panic far too much.

[TJ_Burton]

Naturalistic Set Up.

Would you consider these to fall within your standards of "naturalistic set up" ?

[Kaorte]

Maybe in your opinion a naturalistic enclosure is not expensive or hard to maintain, but in my opinion, it is. Cage furniture is not especially cheap (unless there is some reptile supply dollar store I don't know about?) and neither are nice display tanks, lights, and heating equipment.

As for maintenance, sure you can spot clean but you should also be doing a full clean every month or two. A full clean of 20+ enclosures would take me days by myself. I can clean out 20+ tubs and my rat colonies in a few hours.

If you want to provide your snakes with an "enriching" environment, that is totally cool. Me personally, I choose to give them a simple environment . Neither of us can confirm that the naturalistic environment actually gives the snake any sort of benefit. I'll keep doing what I do, and you keep doing what you do. I actually really like your naturalistic enclosures and I'd like to see more of them, or some info on what went into them and how you set it up.

Rather than sitting here and arguing about who is right and who is wrong, how about we share our knowledge? Your opinion isn't going to sway the majority, so why sit around and fight about it?

[liv]

My snakes are in shoe boxes. I keep them on a bakers rack and use oil lanterns underneath to heat it all. So far taping the lids down works, and as long as I don't mist too much the shoe boxes don't get overly soggy. I use dried up banana peels for bedding since it's free (I eat a lot of bananas). I have been trying to get my balls onto eating ground beef, but for whatever reason no matter how much I rub the rat on it, they just won't strike it... I put it in a tube sock so that it doesn't squish out everywhere when they try to constrict it... any ideas on that?

Anyways,
Naturalistic enclosures are not good for snakes, as they will be exposed to parasites and predators in the wild, so I would have to put those in to make it as 'natural' as possible, you know? I don't want to have to do that. I love my snakes too much.

Also, I keep dart frogs in snow globes and try to inbreed as much as possible to hone in on the best traits. I also love hybridizing localities!

TJ you are WAY off.

What you should be doing is covering the insides of the shoeboxes with a collage of fine arts. Ball pythons appreciate the fine beauty of Monet (it de-stresses them). Although, I have a black pastel that goes absolutely BANANAS over Picasso. Something about the shapes make him feel more alive. You should also include some Kant, Aquinas, Pluto, etc, as snakes appreciate all philosophical outlooks. I often find mine debating; they say that the mental stimulation really gets their appetite going!

[satomi325]

Of course, hence why i said dependent on species, as i imagine most of you keep more than just Royal's.


Many of you have stated that you don't do a naturalistic set up because of the time to maintain them, and the cost involved. Neither which is true, as they don't take long to maintain, and the cost is next to nothing. Obviously when they're youngsters they need to be fed on a more frequent basis in case they do go on a hunger strike. But adults can go a very long time without food, people just panic far too much.

I only keep royals so I'm only referring to them.

As for rack vs naturalistic cage. While I can't answer for everyone, I'll answer for myself. I mentioned in a previous post that I chose racks because the snakes seem to do equally well in a rack compared to other enclosures. Maybe even better in some instances?
Maintaining a newspaper tub requires more frequent cleaning than one using organic substrate. When a snake soils their newspaper, you have to change it out entirely. I have to change newspaper once or twice a week for each of my snakes. Sometimes even more. I've used aspen before and that was easier to maintain. At least it was for me. Spot cleaning is easy to pick up on the spot and dumping bedding once a month. That was less work for me than newspaper. But both aren't difficult. I was just pointing out that paper needs more frequent maintenance. I'm a full time university student so money isn't growing on trees for me. I get newspaper for free from school so that helps a lot with costs. I also have limited (temporary) space so full blown display enclosures aren't logical right now.

But when I get my own house and have a steady income, I would eventually like to try a naturalistic enclosure for 2 or 3 of my more established, more confident royals. I don't think the rest would tolerate the change very well.

But I would definitely do a nice natural set up for other less sensitive species for sure.
From what I've seen from most other members here, they do the same with their non ball python animals.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Skiploder]

I think if Crotalids had just made his statement and not insulted everyone who uses bare bones setup this "discussion" wouldn't have turned into BP.net vs Crotalids. What has upset me (and I imagine a majority of BP.net) was the insinuation that because we use racks it is automatically assumed that the tubs are too small, we lack passion for our animals, are too lazy to maintain the naturalistic setup or any of the various other insults that were said.

I do believe that sometimes we become set in our ways, this isn't the first time I've seen a majority of BP.net turn against someone who posts something different from what they do, but again I don't think this would have turned into the utter chaos it has if Crotalids had phrased his opinion in a less insulting way.

I don't buy it. When given the opportunity, the army of geniuses who think that there is only one way to skin a cat rail against people who keep two snakes in one enclosure, use overheat heat emitters, use glass tanks, use pine bedding, etc. etc. Where's the 14 page manifesto debating that junk science point buy point?

Yep, Crotalids is coming on strong and probably won't get many "Thank Yous" when he posts a picture of himself in the bathroom mirror in one of the two leg-humping threads. Hopefully, he can live with that shame.

Frankly, as someone who writes rebuttals to all the pots that think tupperware is the only right way to keep a snake, belly heat is the only way to heat, that two snakes can't ever be cohabitated and that pine bedding is deadly, think that those pots need to stop calling out the one black kettle who is guilty of doing the same thing they do in day in and day out.

I have seen naturalistic set ups for many species of snakes - yes, even one where the keeper used a cermaic pot wrapped in papier mache to simulate a termite mount. I have seen snakes thrive in them. Are they harder to clean? Yes and no. Are they easier on the keeper? No, but as has been pointed out in the cohabbing thread, doing things for the convenience of the keeper is EVIL and shame on the poor idiot who dare to take a short cut for his, not the snake's, benefit.

Are they beneficial to the snake? That's the $64 question.......maybe, maybe not.

I have seen one of the finest practitioners in the art of keeping snakes keep his large colubrids in completely natural set ups, replete with live plants and small trees. I have seen how those animals interact with their environments.

I have seen the same species kept in rubbermaid and iris tubs and I have first hand heard people who keep them so argue that what's the point of a larger space when all they do is use their hide?

Well, given the space, these snakes look for food, utilize several thermoregulation zones, bury themselves in leaf litter, poke around in hollow logs and climb branches. The use their hides less and use their environment more.

When they aren't robotically stuffed with a fat rodent every week like clockwork, and instead have to look in their environments for different items in different places at differing time spans, they will actively "hunt". I'd make the argument that a properly executed naturalistic enclosure (without predators and parasites - duh) is superior to the ubiquitous tub.

Drop the hive mentality, drones. If Crotalids is giving you a dose of holier-than-thou-judgment, make him come correct. But a pox on you filthy hypocrites that are cheesed at him for taking a page from your effed up intolerance playbooks. Deal with the fact that the tub is a serviceable tool, a perfectly acceptable method of keeping SOME species of snakes, but that a properly done naturalistic environment is probably the ideal.