Parents

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

how about speed limits, drinking and driving, texting and driving, shoplifting, legal gun ownership, drug use, passing a stopped school bus? just to name a few.. how many teens are killed every year because of texting and driving? or people killed by morons who think drinking and driving is a flexable rule, our state had a mother of two killed by two shoplifters fleeing the scene, how many parents have to bury their children because someone thought 25 in a neighborhood is flexable? ect ect ect..

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I'm not sure how speed limits actually make people slow down? Certainly isn't the case when I'm on the road. Not to mention most of the dangerous driving I've seen has been below 25mph, walmart parking lot anybody? Drinking and driving also isn't solved by laws against it. Texting laws just make people look at their phones in their laps instead of putting it up at steering wheel level and viewing the messages. Shoplifting is solved through ink dyes, locked cases, and private security guards more so then laws against shop lifting. How does legal gun ownership vs illegal gun ownership make a difference in who is going to commit violence? If guns were suddenly all made illegal tomarrow I certaintly wouldn't then suddenly find myself holding up a bank. How is drug use the cause of violence? Even if it is shouldn't we charge them with the violent act they committed not the nonviolent one of smoking some plant? The world really isn't all that dangerous for your average person who avoids putting themselves into bad situations, neighborhoods, etc.

Oh and how does any of this connect to the OP's personal preference of not going to church? I'm kinda confused, please explain.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

I'm not sure how speed limits actually make people slow down? Certainly isn't the case when I'm on the road. Not to mention most of the dangerous driving I've seen has been below 25mph, walmart parking lot anybody? Drinking and driving also isn't solved by laws against it. Texting laws just make people look at their phones in their laps instead of putting it up at steering wheel level and viewing the messages. Shoplifting is solved through ink dyes, locked cases, and private security guards more so then laws against shop lifting. How does legal gun ownership vs illegal gun ownership make a difference in who is going to commit violence? If guns were suddenly all made illegal tomarrow I certaintly wouldn't then suddenly find myself holding up a bank. How is drug use the cause of violence? Even if it is shouldn't we charge them with the violent act they committed not the nonviolent one of smoking some plant? The world really isn't all that dangerous for your average person who avoids putting themselves into bad situations, neighborhoods, etc.

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See you just made my point..even though there are rules non-flexiable rules inplace people don't follow them..As a parent it's my job to raise my children to not be like all the examples about you just gave.. Thank you.

Again like I'm not talking about the chruch thing I'm talking about a 17 year old person upset because of rules they don't like and don't think they should have to follow..Kind of like all the examples you gave above and I gave..It's not the rule that's worry some, its the mindset about the rule, I don't like it there for I shouldn't have to do it..

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

See you just made my point..even though there are rules non-flexiable rules inplace people don't follow them..As a parent it's my job to raise my children to not be like all the examples about you just gave.. Thank you.

Again like I'm not talking about the chruch thing I'm talking about a 17 year old person upset because of rules they don't like and don't think they should have to follow..Kind of like all the examples you gave above and I gave..It's not the rule that's worry some, its the mindset about the rule, I don't like it there for I shouldn't have to do it..

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I might have misunderstood your point of view so forgive me if I did.

From my understanding though you are saying that rules need to be non-flexible so people will follow them. All of the laws however aren't flexible, if you do X you get Y punishment. Pretty cut and dry to me and these rules are not followed.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

I might have misunderstood your point of view so forgive me if I did.

From my understanding though you are saying that rules need to be non-flexible so people will follow them. All of the laws however aren't flexible, if you do X you get Y punishment. Pretty cut and dry to me and these rules are not followed.

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I'm saying as a parent I have to set boundary's and teach my kids to follow them or except the consequences. So that later in life they understand the concept of breaking the law and what all that entails. Some rules are flexable as well they should be I just know which is which and treat them justly..

I'm confused, does everyone really beloved that if I don't/resist to go to a religious ceremony I'm gonna be a speeder,crook, etc? I have rules....plenty. Plus I have more financial and time responsibilities than most kids. Really, after school I work on animals all night and I don't really have a ton of friends.

When I have been probably their easiest kid plus I abide by all their rules. I'm not into religion; that's it. However no, I'm not living a prison

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I'm saying as a parent I have to set boundary's and teach my kids to follow them or except the consequences. So that later in life they understand the concept of breaking the law and what all that entails. Some rules are flexable as well they should be I just know which is which and treat them justly..

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What boundary's are you teaching them to follow or accept the consequences? And what are the consequences?

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

What boundary's are you teaching them to follow or accept the consequences? And what are the consequences?

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Well right now its things like don't throw blocks at the T.V. and biting is a "no no" soo yea.;)

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Well right now its things like don't throw blocks at the T.V. and biting is a "no no" soo yea.;)

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Awesome :gj:, I think those are both great values to teach kids. Don't do things which might damage other peoples property and don't do things which hurt others. Thats all great so long as you are using logic to explain to them why. Typically though folks will just say dont do X, why?, because I said so and if you do not do as I say I will give you Y punishment. Which doesn't teach kids critical thinking or how to universalize concepts which is very important for empathy.

Not sure what that has to do with giving them structure so they obey laws though :confusd:.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

Awesome :gj:, I think those are both great values to teach kids. Don't do things which might damage other peoples property and don't do things which hurt others. Thats all great so long as you are using logic to explain to them why. Typically though folks will just say dont do X, why?, because I said so and if you do not do as I say I will give you Y punishment. Which doesn't teach kids critical thinking or how to universalize concepts which is very important for empathy.

Not sure what that has to do with giving them structure so they obey laws though :confusd:.

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You are apparently not a parent... As a parent, it is your obligation to mentor your children into becoming the adults you want them to be. I want my children to become productive, law abiding members of society. I have to instill those values in my children from an early age, meaning teaching them right from wrong and teaching them that their actions will have consequences. That translates into breaking the law = consequences.

Having a parenting debate with non-parents is futile because until you ARE a parent, you won't know what it truly means and the responsibilities that go along with it (responsibility to not only your kids, but responsibility to society to ensure your kids aren't going to become hooligans or thugs without any respect for other people or property).

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Originally Posted by Inknsteel

You are apparently not a parent... As a parent, it is your obligation to mentor your children into becoming the adults you want them to be. I want my children to become productive, law abiding members of society. I have to instill those values in my children from an early age, meaning teaching them right from wrong and teaching them that their actions will have consequences. That translates into breaking the law = consequences.

Having a parenting debate with non-parents is futile because until you ARE a parent, you won't know what it truly means and the responsibilities that go along with it (responsibility to not only your kids, but responsibility to society to ensure your kids aren't going to become hooligans or thugs without any respect for other people or property).

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Yeah and I have to be a cop to know that a cop that shoots a handcuffed citizen is a bad cop. I have to be a doctor to know that a doctor who amputates the wrong leg is a bad doctor. I have to be a politician to know what a good law is. I have to be a dentist to know how to brush my teeth. I have to be a football player to know what a good player is. etc

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

Yeah and I have to be a cop to know that a cop that shoots a handcuffed citizen is a bad cop. I have to be a doctor to know that a doctor who amputates the wrong leg is a bad doctor. I have to be a politician to know what a good law is. I have to be a dentist to know how to brush my teeth. I have to be a football player to know what a good player is. etc

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No but you have to have good examples to know what a bad one is..;)

There is a huge difference between

1) teaching your child that there are negative consequences to criminal behavior

and

2) teaching your child that there are negative consequences for having different political/religious/moral/ethical values/other opinions than yourself

One is a great way to keep your kid out of trouble. The other is a stifling suppression of one's right to be an individual and the ability to form and express dissenting opinions. We have the first amendment in our US Constitution to prevent the government from doing just that, but it can be just as damaging (if not more) when parents try to do the same thing to young adults under the age of majority.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

Yeah and I have to be a cop to know that a cop that shoots a handcuffed citizen is a bad cop. I have to be a doctor to know that a doctor who amputates the wrong leg is a bad doctor. I have to be a politician to know what a good law is. I have to be a dentist to know how to brush my teeth. I have to be a football player to know what a good player is. etc

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As a parent, I've actually felt like a cop, doctor, dentist, lawmaker, and football player at some time or another! It's not easy to be any of those things, let alone all at the same time!

I don't get the impression that OP is a bad "kid". He has stated several times that he is close to and respects his parents. They've obviously done something right. If their one "screw-up" is making him be a part of a group he's not interested in, that's not so bad.

Like I said before (and others as well), rather than fight it, take what you can from it. Look at it as giving back to your parents in return for all they've given you. Trust me, they've done things for they didn't love doing. Trust me!

Wow...this took off while I was away. :)

Ok, first off it looks like what I said was misunderstood. When I said that rules can't be too concrete and parents should be willing to compromise, what I should have said was HOUSE rules.
Naturally, the Laws of society are not flexible and shouldn't be. And we as parents (Yes, for those not aware I AM a parent) must make sure we teach our children to respect and follow those laws. The rules I referred to are house rules - those that exist between family members in a home. And yes, those do need to be open to compromise, especially as a child gets older. One should never treat their 15 year old the same way they did when he was 2 (unless he still acts that way, of course). Rules should change as a child grows, and the older the child the more compromise room there should be since the child is now making their own identity as a person and future adult.

In this case, from what I've read, the OP's parents are not open to compromise even though the OP tried to talk with them about the fact that his beliefs differ from theirs. Add in the fact that they 'threaten' to take away his property, that he himself paid for, if he does not do as they say and you have a case of parental bullying. IMHO most cases of rebellion and kids becoming little hellions stem from a lack of compromise room.
Now don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying a parent should bend over backward and always be the ones to make the compromise! No no...that's what also leads to brats. But they should be willing to talk things over, have an open mind to what their child says, and think up likely solutions that can involve compromise on both parts.

So, sorry for any confusion there. Let us return to the discussion, and I hope the OP is able to either offer some good compromises...or come up with a roommate or two for the coming months. :)

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Originally Posted by Argentra

Wow...this took off while I was away. :)

Ok, first off it looks like what I said was misunderstood. When I said that rules can't be too concrete and parents should be willing to compromise, what I should have said was HOUSE rules.
Naturally, the Laws of society are not flexible and shouldn't be. And we as parents (Yes, for those not aware I AM a parent) must make sure we teach our children to respect and follow those laws. The rules I referred to are house rules - those that exist between family members in a home. And yes, those do need to be open to compromise, especially as a child gets older. One should never treat their 15 year old the same way they did when he was 2 (unless he still acts that way, of course). Rules should change as a child grows, and the older the child the more compromise room there should be since the child is now making their own identity as a person and future adult.

In this case, from what I've read, the OP's parents are not open to compromise even though the OP tried to talk with them about the fact that his beliefs differ from theirs. Add in the fact that they 'threaten' to take away his property, that he himself paid for, if he does not do as they say and you have a case of parental bullying. IMHO most cases of rebellion and kids becoming little hellions stem from a lack of compromise room.
Now don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying a parent should bend over backward and always be the ones to make the compromise! No no...that's what also leads to brats. But they should be willing to talk things over, have an open mind to what their child says, and think up likely solutions that can involve compromise on both parts.

So, sorry for any confusion there. Let us return to the discussion, and I hope the OP is able to either offer some good compromises...or come up with a roommate or two for the coming months. :)

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I couldn't agree more. :gj: