If it's too good to be true....

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I think there are so many new people coming into this hobby everyday that it really doesn't matter whether you're new or not.

Newbs don't know what to look for and newb sellers are there every spring.

Do what you feel is right and ignore everyone else. If you're happy with what you're doing nothing else is important.

Look at KS or Fauna, even here to a smaller extent, and you'll first time breeders with prices that are pretty much market. So long as the seller knows what they're talking about, can take a decent picture and doesn't have a bad guy thread on the BOI, they ALL seem to sell.

Worrying now over what may or may not happen someday may not be the best use of your snake time.

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think that pretty much somes it up.
on another note hope to see you guys in hamburg(who ever is going)

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Well better have good locks on your collection. Being well known is one thing, but being well known locally and where collection resides is asking for trouble with thieves.

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I worry about nothing, great surveillance system recorded both locally and off site, dog, I am in and out of my house randomly, and if the pd doesnt find you first you will wish they did.;):gj:

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Originally Posted by JulieInNJ

So being that I want to hobby breed, anything I don't hold back I'd sell, but probably at nothing near breeder's prices (for example, a male albino for $100 as opposed to the normal $300ish you see).

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When you start selling those $100 albino males, make sure you let me know!!:D

Interesting thread. I had no idea breeders felt this way.

I love the declaration of how terrible pet stores are and how they don't care about the animals they sell, while simultaniously saying how you "blows out" the animals selling them cheap just to get them out and move them fast, wholesaling lots out as well.

So what was that about "breeders" being so much better? Maybe YOUR stores all suck, seeing as there aren't any local stores selling BPs according to you, not sure how they're all bad if they don't exist. Also, there's no market for BPs in your area locally, but you "blow out" all your snakes every year, so who is buying them? Are you shipping all of them out of the area?

Since there are quite a few breeders of BPs in NJ, you might wonder why none of them have hooked up with you yet. If you have some poor attitude that you'll undercut everyone's prices to move all your snakes fast, I wouldn't care to deal with you locally either. Just saying. Maybe in real life, you're a great person and all, but from the big attitude here towards just throwing your snakes away for trashy prices to move them fast and undercut other people's prices, it's not an attitude I care for.

It really is exactly the same as saying you should be doing that full back art for $25 or you're "ripping off" the clients. After all, that full back art only cost you TIME and a little ink, so why charge so much? Of COURSE you're free to charge whatever you like, but like I've mentioned before, at some point you need other breeders to exchange stock or get new morphs, etc. Networking is how this hobby is perpetrated. But then, I guess if you're happily moving all your stock cheaply and fast, you don't care to associate with any other hobbiests or breeders. Shrug.

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Originally Posted by Jessica Loesch

To address the end of your post .... not to be blunt, but why WOULDN'T you price them a little closer to value to make more profit?

I mean, I'm one of those crazy ladies that sits there with her snake, adoring it and calling it cute even though it could give a rat's ... tail .. and then eat it. LOL, but seriously. I still see the value in my potential hatchlings and would rather make the proper amount of money for them. I bought quality breeders and therefore will produce quality animals, so why not? I'm not doing it for the money, but the money keeps me in the hobby and helps me grow my business. There are special cases yes, where if you feel the need to donate or reduce price for someone that deserves it, it is fine, but why for everyone? Why not turn more profit yourself? I just don't see the logic behind this.

You are advocating for making less money with the same amount of time invested, just because some people can't afford the higher dollar morphs (WHICH you can ship, so don't use that local argument, it's fairly easy to do so with SYR). I just don't get what your point is. They can get a pastel or a normal. Give it to them free for all I care. But why would you want to give them something you can get a little or a lot of money back into your hobby from?

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I'm newer to snake business but I'll give an example in the hot rod industry. Some people think a Munci 4-speed is worth its weight in gold...and will sell a 1970 worn out one that needs to be worked over for $700. I personally think thats stupid and a complete ripoff. I believe they are worth about $400 so thats what I sell them for, because its going to another person who loves the same hobby I do and if I'm cheaper than other people, I gained another customer....while the guy down the lot is taking his stuff back home. After you gain a customer, you have a new contact to buy/sell/trade with...its helped me out tremendously over the years. Keep in mind, I still make money on that 4-speed but I'm still below "market" value. I will sell stuff at a price I believe to be reasonable, not because its not as high quality as the guy down the road, but because I just dont think its worth that much, like people trying to sell a $10 bill for $20. I guess I'm crazy and should make all the money I can out of stuff, but I have to remember that when I try to get a deal.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I love the declaration of how terrible pet stores are and how they don't care about the animals they sell, while simultaniously saying how you "blows out" the animals selling them cheap just to get them out and move them fast, wholesaling lots out as well.

So what was that about "breeders" being so much better? Maybe YOUR stores all suck, seeing as there aren't any local stores selling BPs according to you, not sure how they're all bad if they don't exist. Also, there's no market for BPs in your area locally, but you "blow out" all your snakes every year, so who is buying them? Are you shipping all of them out of the area?

Since there are quite a few breeders of BPs in NJ, you might wonder why none of them have hooked up with you yet. If you have some poor attitude that you'll undercut everyone's prices to move all your snakes fast, I wouldn't care to deal with you locally either. Just saying. PMaybe in real life, you're a great person and all, but from the big attitude here towards just throwing your snakes away for trashy prices to move them fast and undercut other people's prices, it's not an attitude I care for.

It really is exactly the same as saying you should be doing that full back art for $25 or you're "ripping off" the clients. After all, that full back art only cost you TIME and a little ink, so why charge so much? Of COURSE you're free to charge whatever you like, but like I've mentioned before, at some point you need other breeders to exchange stock or get new morphs, etc. Networking is how this hobby is perpetrated. But then, I guess if you're happily moving all your stock cheaply and fast, you don't care to associate with any other hobbiests or breeders. Shrug.

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Pay attention ill go slow for ya cause you havent stated one thing i said. First off i said the big box pet stores like petco and petsmart around here suck. I also said we have a very competitive breeder market locally with the likes of outback, kahl, sharp, morph makers and more. Just because i blow out some single co dom norphs and normals doesnt mean the quality suffers. I just dont have room to hold onto alot of surplus aninals so some have to be wholesaled out. When your breeding and producing over 50 clutches a year let me know if you can hold everything back. It has nothing to do with poor attitude. Im not doing anything different then any other breeder is doing when it comes to surplus. What my point was from the beginning was nothing any single person does is going to crash any market on any morph period. Why would i hold on to normals longer and feed them longer to just make an extra 10 bucks per animal. Oh but i guess im single handedly crashing the normal market huh? I have shipped plenty of animals over the years to new jersey. As a matter a fact i have repeat customers in the cherry hill region.

Oh and to ad one more thing. Its a money thing. No matter what i charge i will always be able to deal with other breeders. I have dealt with them for years and still will in the future. The bottom line is its a money thing. If ya got the cash they will sell you the animals. Noone is going to get black listed for dropping prices. Maybe if you were in the breeding/ buisness side of it you would understand. Look bottom line is i have been very careful over the years to produce great quality animals. I use good stock and am very particular with my care of my collection. Im not just throwing animals away as you stated. I have alot of animals therefore when i have surplus animals the lower end stuff needs to be wholesaled. And by the way 25 bucks on normals is above the market. The market on normals sit between 12 to 18 bucks just incase ya didnt know.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

I dont think anyone on this forum should tell someone what to price their animals for. Who cares if competition gets upset. Thats what happens in competitive markets.

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I'm thinking you are not real interested in the end buyer, but more in the argument to be had about where that end buyer makes their purchase.

It's great that you get fantastic money from your wonderful buyers and close bosom buddies. Neato skadeedo.

However, like my pal, pal, the guy who thinks HE knows everything, you ain't the be all and end all.

Why is it that guys like you need to go insulting people who either don't agree with you outright or don't agree with you enough to you to think they're on your side? So for YOU the value is X. Fanfriggintastic.

That means almost nothing to me. Partly because it's you, directly and personally, and partly because with the little bit of brain I've got I can sort of figure out the ball park, price wise, that I am comfortable with whether buying or selling animals that are or will soon be, mine.

I'm not sure if you'd have a problem with this. I'm sure how much I'd care if you did. I guess what I just don't get is why you need to be here just being unpleasant trying to prove a pointless point to people who really are perfectly capable of figuring out everything they need to know in spite of you.

Maybe you figure they aren't capable and you're saving them some fierce thinking and unpleasant figuring, comparing and contrasting, using mental energies as never before, the way you do on a regular basis, and so you are in fact making an effort to be helpful, to offer advice and experience to those who may be in need and want of it.

But I doubt that. I just don't figure you that way.

Oh well. You keep on trying to cram your views down the collectives throats of those who still read what you write, and good luck to you too, and I'll just mosey on over and see what's happening with the non mywayornoway folks.

TTFN

Okay. Here's another whine. "I'm not crashing the market..." comments when no one has ever said you(or any small breeder) was going to make the market crash. That's all in YOU misreading over and over.

Since it's seriously obvious that you don't care what anyone writes, you'll just read what you want to see, I'll give up on it.

You do what you want. Breed your fifty clutches. Obviously there's no one in your area. You're the bomb for everything. All the other breeders are lined up panting to buy your snakes because not one of them cares that you undercut them and say they're "ripping off" people by selling higher.

Have fun with that. I'll enjoy my animals and enjoy chatting with all the breeders and herp-keepers without slitting their throats and belittling them. It works for me. But different strokes for different folks.

*bows out of the thread*

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Originally Posted by Reakt20

When you start selling those $100 albino males, make sure you let me know!!:D

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I'll buy them all and leave you REALLY good feedback!;);)

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Okay. Here's another whine. "I'm not crashing the market..." comments when no one has ever said you(or any small breeder) was going to make the market crash. That's all in YOU misreading over and over.

Since it's seriously obvious that you don't care what anyone writes, you'll just read what you want to see, I'll give up on it.

You do what you want. Breed your fifty clutches. Obviously there's no one in your area. You're the bomb for everything. All the other breeders are lined up panting to buy your snakes because not one of them cares that you undercut them and say they're "ripping off" people by selling higher.

Have fun with that. I'll enjoy my animals and enjoy chatting with all the breeders and herp-keepers without slitting their throats and belittling them. It works for me. But different strokes for different folks.

*bows out of the thread*

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Again you didnt get it. I dont sell all my animals at discounted prices. I never said i did. I said i price some of my over stock animals lower to blow em out and sell them quick so i dont have to sit on them. The animals im talking about for example would be spiders or pastels produced out of bee breedings or cinnamons produced out of say pewter breedings or the normals that come out from said breedings. Surplus not mainstay animals. And we are talking a small amount of animals. This is a buisness for me so i have to protect the bottom line. From a buisness standpoint it makes no scense for me to hold on to an animal and feed them and house them to the point of taking a loss just to hold out for an extra couple bucks that may not come. Those animals i price aggresively. What am i doing wrong. If anything im helping my bottom line as well as hooking a few customers up with good deals. Its a win win. What part of that do you have a problem with. Im not breeding animals to have a huge collection of pets. I do this because i love the hobby and i love the buisness and at the end of the day it is a buisness. I cut my prices to the point of hurting my buisness. I produce good quality animals off of good stock. I price the majority of my animals at fair market value. Again i ask what part of that do you have a problem with? It was you who attacked me on my buisness ethics before even understanding what i was saying. I understand that the majority of people on here are looking at it from a pet owners, or hobbyist point of view and thats great but you have to look at it from a buisness point of view as well if your going to argue with me over it. I gaurantee if you were looking for a particular animal and i had that animal you would be more then happy with my quality and you would be more then happy with my prices as well.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

I gaurantee if you were looking for a particular animal and i had that animal you would be more then happy with my quality and you would be more then happy with my prices as well.

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And I can guarantee that even at half that price some would still pass.

Do you know why?

I don't want to get dragged into an ugly debate, but I need to say one thing.

I am a very new breeder. Only one clutch of my own to my name, three normals and two vanillas.

I took my babies to a local show. I had $25 on my normals, even though many other people had them for $15. I sold all three in 2 hours. Most of the people with $15 babies, were packing them up at the end of the show.

I had $250 on my vanilla males. Someone I know from 3 tables away had two of his own at $300. Even though he is a much bigger and better known breeder compared to unknown me, I sold both of those males. It was to friends of mine. One is my rat supplier, and the other a breeder I've purchased from. Both of these people were very impressed by the quality of my babies, and both agreed they would have paid more if I had asked it.

Want to know the kicker ? The other guy came over, looked at my vanillas, and said "Dang those are nice, I wish I'd produced them." He said nothing about the lower price, nor did he lower his price. I saw him at Tinley this past weekend, and he had sold his snakes for what he was asking for them.

Bottom line for the OP, don't underestimate what people will be willing to pay for your animals. I would rather people think I had quality animals by pricing them at or above market value, than to wonder what is wrong with my animals that I have to sell them so cheaply. That is not the image I want as a new breeder.

Gale

It would be nice if there was an official "market price". Maybe someone could publish a "Ball Python Blue Book". I'd buy a subscription! :)

After having already veered rather off topic...this thread is about to explode majorly off the tracks...so it is temporarily closed for maintenance while I split out a couple posts and allow a new thread to be started. The new thread will be in the Inquiry/Feedback forum and I will link to it when I'm finished.

Alright...all tidied up. If you wish to continue discussing business models and how new breeders should consider pricing their animals...please do so here.

If you want to talk about snake lab or Chris Guida or any of that, please do so here:
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ue...-quot-%29

(That is NOT in QT...no special permissions needed. :P )

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Since there are quite a few breeders of BPs in NJ, you might wonder why none of them have hooked up with you yet. If you have some poor attitude that you'll undercut everyone's prices to move all your snakes fast, I wouldn't care to deal with you locally either. Just saying. Maybe in real life, you're a great person and all, but from the big attitude here towards just throwing your snakes away for trashy prices to move them fast and undercut other people's prices, it's not an attitude I care for.

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Wow, I don't think that's what I was asking at all. It had nothing to do with undercutting people to make a sale and to blow out my animals and move them quickly, but everything to do with getting my name out there and trying to build a reputation for good animals. My original albino example may have been a bit extreme, but it was truly only an example. I honestly didn't know how people felt about a new breeder selling at lower than average prices...hence my original question.

And in throwing out my question about NJ breeders, I found there WERE a number of NJ breeders however the bigger guys aren't online - which is where I checked - or aren't computer savy. So being blown off wasn't a personal affront and a refusal to do business with me, it was just a lack of technical understanding.

I would hope people would want to deal with me locally. I've already connected with so many fantastic people that I'm truly excited to see what happens with the future; I hope my enthusiasm, and the care I give to my animals, will speak for themselves. And anyone is welcome to my home to see my animals - but try to steal one and you'll have 2 dogs and an armed boyfriend on you in seconds. ;)

...sorry Judy... Please don't be mad! :please:

:D

wow how did this go from asking a question to being accussed of undercutting nj breeders(what did i miss)

first off most of us in this part of nj didnt even know there were any nj breeders ,since they cant be found.
the only one i found on line and got back to me was beth evans.
just in the last few pages of this thread did i even here any names of nj breeders.

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Originally Posted by piedplus

It would be nice if there was an official "market price". Maybe someone could publish a "Ball Python Blue Book". I'd buy a subscription! :)

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I second that, lol!!!

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Originally Posted by buddha1200

first off most of us in this part of nj didnt even know there were any nj breeders ,since they cant be found.
the only one i found on line and got back to me was beth evans.

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That's kind of where I was going with my point. When I try and find someone/something/someplace, the first place I go is the internet. Not finding anything lead me to incorrectly believe that there wasn't anything going on in NJ. I'm happy to find out otherwise and to network at Hamburg this weekend!