Put it down already

All the people making accusations about breeders freezing their healthy normal males, who are the breeders? Can you substantiate your claims? From what I understand most big breeders sell them to pet stores.

The first thing I looked for PRIOR to breeding was buyers for the babies- Especially the normals. I'd no sooner put down a Healthy animal than shoot my foot! IMHO that's not the way to do things- I've always seen the higher cost we pay for "fancy snakes" aka morphs as a way to cover the overhead of producing normals. It's also why I think many of the base morph snakes produced today are sold way too cheaply.

Most on my normals are sold at wholesale to my local shop here after their 3rd meal. I'm lucky to break even on normals... if you don't count the time involved. But they are great snakes, well started on rats & my buyer will take anything he can get from me because the animals do well. I have him give out a NorthernRegius Key Chain with each snake & a care-sheet, so if the buyer has questions or is looking for morphs they'll see the care I put into all my babies. We may put a price-tag on the paint-jobs but life is life. Killing a perfectly healthy animal?!! Not in my little corner of the world!

I do understand why some people would want to believe that freezing is humane--it's inconvenient to believe otherwise.
I'll go out on a limb and point out that instantaneous destruction of the brain actually is humane, though never approved by any veterinary standard, because it is perceived as being brutal (I've never understood that one--cattle are bolted through the brain to kill them for slaughter, after all).

There are euthanasia drugs approved for use in reptiles, now, though. If someone has to put down an animal, and they truly want to be humane, they should probably not freeze it to death. Even the chance that this method is painful should be enough to make a person seek one of the several alternative methods that are known to not be painful. The way it's always been done is not always the right way...or even usually the right way. Look how far we've come with reptile care in the past few decades.

As for normal males, that is part of the operating expenses of being a breeder. There are always people who want a nice pet python. Some of mine go to a local pet store, and some are sold directly. Down the road, I will probably find either more pet stores or a wholesaler to sell them to. I do have high standards, though, and I will be sniffing them out thoroughly before I let my babies go there. If that means keeping and feeding normal males for a while before I find buyers, well, that's a few more rats, and morph prices can easily absorb the costs of that. Someone whose ONLY interest is the bottom line should not be allowed to own animals at all, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by monk90222

I've heard of one breeder (has a bad name in the industry) who puts all normal males in the freezer.

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You've heard of that person also?? Weird!

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

All the people making accusations about breeders freezing their healthy normal males, who are the breeders? Can you substantiate your claims? From what I understand most big breeders sell them to pet stores.

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Eddie: It's not necessary for anyone to disclose who the person is. All I will say is that the person isn't a "big breeder" and already has a suspect rep. To disclose the name would do nothing but open people up to legal trouble.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I do understand why some people would want to believe that freezing is humane--it's inconvenient to believe otherwise.
I'll go out on a limb and point out that instantaneous destruction of the brain actually is humane, though never approved by any veterinary standard, because it is perceived as being brutal (I've never understood that one--cattle are bolted through the brain to kill them for slaughter, after all).

There are euthanasia drugs approved for use in reptiles, now, though. If someone has to put down an animal, and they truly want to be humane, they should probably not freeze it to death. Even the chance that this method is painful should be enough to make a person seek one of the several alternative methods that are known to not be painful. The way it's always been done is not always the right way...or even usually the right way. Look how far we've come with reptile care in the past few decades.

As for normal males, that is part of the operating expenses of being a breeder. There are always people who want a nice pet python. Some of mine go to a local pet store, and some are sold directly. Down the road, I will probably find either more pet stores or a wholesaler to sell them to. I do have high standards, though, and I will be sniffing them out thoroughly before I let my babies go there. If that means keeping and feeding normal males for a while before I find buyers, well, that's a few more rats, and morph prices can easily absorb the costs of that. Someone whose ONLY interest is the bottom line should not be allowed to own animals at all, in my opinion.

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Just to play devil's advocate here, it seems that you may not be existing in the same real world that others inhabit. While it may be affordable for you to take the one baby you produce every year (if that) that needs to be culled to a vet for "humane" euthanasia, it wouldn't be affordable for the intermediate breeders who do 70 clutches and produce 7 babies that need to be culled or the big breeder who does 500 clutches and produces 50 babies that need to be culled. Now I am clearly just pulling numbers out of my butt, but I think the logic is there.

I am not saying I disagree with all of your post, just playing devil's advocate as I tend to do.

Wes made some good points (yes, the snowball fight in hell is on for this weekend!). First, there are two sides to every argument. Whether in science, politics or at the office water cooler. Who do we believe? Second, he stated that he has put animals with full range of movement in a freezer and they were in the same position when he looked at them after they were dead. One would think that an animal in pain would writhe around and change positions, not lay there quietly. How do we explain that?

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Interesting thread, I haven't read the whole thread yet so please excuse me if this has been covered already. My question is where do you draw the line?

Should I freeze this one? She seems healthy and active but she's missing an eye. Eyes on snakes are overrated so it probably shouldn't cause her any problems though I'll never be able to sell her.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...s/Trouser1.jpg

Should I have tried to save this one? It was born alive, had no eyes, a deformed jaw, and quite a bit of kinking and had the belly attached back to itself in a few places. I snapped some pics and put it in the freezer.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...s/deformed.jpg

How about this one? It's a normal male from one of my dinking around projects. This guy has some head rub from trying to test the limits of his shoe box. It'll likely disappear after several sheds, but it's going to make it very difficult to sell even though he eats well and has a great calm yet inquisitive personality. There are plenty of breeders that will stick healthy normal males in the freezer as a matter of course just because they're harder to sell and you can't make any money off of them so why waste the resources?

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...ns/Headrub.jpg

So what do you euthanize? What are the criteria and who makes the decisions? I'm also very active in the local reptile adoption program through our herp society. We have ball pythons coming in every month, and fortunately we've been able to find homes for all of them, but there are other species like green iguanas and Burmese pythons where we HAVE had to put down some individuals because we were not able to place them after many months. I can foresee a time where that may become necessary for ball pythons too.

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I'll keep it simple:

Would not euthanize the one with the missing eye.
Actually have euthanized one with very similar deformities to the one you had to put down.
I sell my males to the local reptile store (they are friends of mine that care very much about their animals). However, I adopted a male from a member here because I wanted to buy his rack system but he needed to move very soon so I agreed to take the BP. He will most probably always be with me because I have grown attached to him and it's hard to find good home for adult males.
I am thoroughly disgusted about the rumor that some breeder(s) place males in the freezer (makes no sense to me really).
If it is obviously going to suffer (not be able to eat, move, etc.) it needs to be put down. But sometimes it's not so obvious and deserves a chance. I say one has to use logic, common sense, and heart to make these decisions.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Mark my answer to your questions in my opinion.

The second one that is all jacked up... i would defiantely have put that one down because it obviously would never live a normal happy life.

The third one with the head sore. I would definately NOT put that one down. There is nothing wrong with that snake other then a little skin blemish. It will no doubt live and function like a normal BP its entire life. If you don't want it, it shouldn't be hard to find someone that will come take him from you for free.

The first one with the missing eye. That is a tricky one, and in a situation like that it should be up to the breeder and the breeders lifetime plan for the snake.

That said if it were mine, It would have been frozen... Not so much because of it being an ugly snake, but because I would always suspect possible other damage and / or discomfort. This is what i would think - what if that missing eye is because of an overall skull deformation? It wouldnt be too far stretched to consider the fact that something like that can cause pressure in the snakes head that is out of the ordinary. That pressure can certainly cause discomfort. What if every day of that snakes life it has HORRIBLE headaches as result? As long as it keeps eating, you would never know if it were suffering or not. That uncertainty for me would be enough reason to freeze.


And for those that think freezing is so inhumane... PLEASE share what in your opinion would be a MORE humane way of putting a hatchling down?

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That 1st one I do plan on keeping around for a while. She certainly doesn't appear to be in any pain. She's a new hatchling and is just going through her first shed now so I'll see how she eats afterward and make a determination at that time. She's already got a name though so I'll probably keep her and use her in educational shows.

The third one I don't plan on killing either, though over the years I've been getting more and more leery of the 'free' option. It's sad but often true that many people seem to equate 'cost' with 'value' so therefore a free snake has less value to them then one that they may have spent a lot of money on and so may receive lesser quality care. I've given away quite a few free snakes through the years and it does seem to me that when I inquire about them later that the free ones seem to have a higher mortality rate then the ones people have paid for.

The second one was never a question in my mind. I couldn't get him in the freezer fast enough, it was almost painful watching him trying to move. And yes, I do believe that freezing is a viable and humane option for euthanasia. Maybe not for warm blooded creatures, but for cold blooded creatures I have no problem with it.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Also, do you see that key word MAY?

That means they don't know for sure.

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Indeed it does.

Particulate substrate may cause impactions and eye infections. Pine bedding may be unhealthy for your snake. Hot rocks or under-tank heaters may overheat and burn your snake. And yet, if anyone here were to house their reptile on particulate substrate with a hot rock, they'd be verbally smacked up one side and down the other. Why is this particular "may" different?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

My guess is that an animal in pain would not sit still, even if it were cold. We've all seen snakes that were far too cold to be healthy moving quite well.

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You don't like "may" suffer, but you'd rather go with "my guess" than experts in reptile medicine?

Ever tried to type when your hands are cold? Kinda hard to move them, isn't it? And we're mammals--we create our own body heat! What about an animal whose body temperature is basically a slave to environmental temperature? Do you seriously think that not moving = no brain function? Try putting one of your snakes in a 40- or 50-degree room and see how much the snake moves. Do you think that the snake isn't feeling discomfort?

What about the time it takes for the snake to reach freezing? Ever put a bottle of water in the freezer? It takes a long time for it to freeze solid. What about the time it takes for the cold to actually kill the snake? This isn't some instantaneous thing like liquid nitrogen!

I'd like to see a cold snake moving well. Dig up a rattlesnake during the winter here. Let me tell you, they can barely move. (Note that the winter temperatures here rarely go below zero.)

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I don't know who the vets you quoted are nor do I know their affiliations. For all I know they're petaphiles or work for hsus.

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Actually, their names are right there. That's the awesome thing about citations: you can go look them up for yourself and find their credentials.

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You can ALWAYS find some expert who agrees with your stand, no matter which side of an issue you're on.

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How many experts agreeing does it take, then?

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I've put animals in the freezer, positioned as comfortably as I can make their final minutes, come back hours later to find them frozen solid in the EXACT same position that I left them in. This says to me that there was no pain involved in the deep cold sleep I put them into.

I HAVE seen snakes writhing in pain. I have NOT seen this in my freezer.

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Again, see my notes above. Not moving does not equal not in pain. Not moving does not equal not suffering. Your argument makes no logical sense.

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I've read others' arguments here--similar ones, I might add--arguing for freezing and arguing that having to take an animal to a vet to have it put down gets expensive. Quite frankly, that is a terrible excuse. You'd rather make your pets suffer (or possibly make your pets suffer) just because it's easier and cheaper for you? Why is this okay, but putting multiple snakes in the same enclosure because it's cheaper for you bad? Or why is this okay, but trying to treat a severe medical problem yourself without vet help because it's cheaper a terrible thing to do? Don't we all say many, many times that people should not be in the hobby if they don't first and foremost care for the animals?

I'm sorry, but no matter how many animals I have to put down, I'm taking them to my vet for proper euthanization. That's part of the cost of breeding reptiles, just like bedding, housing, heat, food, etc., and I will absolutely not cut corners on care just because it's cheaper or easier for me.

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Originally Posted by Simpson Balls

15??? All I am saying is there are people who will take Male Norms. There is not need to freeze them unless you are a huge breeder.

Daniel

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AH HA!!!
I am sooo bad with names. I knew you irritated me from somewhere.

I'll just leave you be.

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Originally Posted by Eventide

I'm sorry

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Apology accepted but there is still no excuse for your condemnation of those who DARE to think and do other than as you approve.

What, exactly, makes you better?

I still haven't seen exactly what is considered "proper" euthanasia for snakes. I believe I saw mention of a new medication based euthanasia, but if that's the case and it's new, I'd assume that means it's not the same thing they use on dogs or cats, which would lead me to believe that you're most likely only going to find that option at a herp specific vet.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Apology accepted but there is still no excuse for your condemnation of those who DARE to think and do other than as you approve.

What, exactly, makes you better?

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Condemnation? You think I'm condemning people? You think I'm arguing because I think I'm somehow above y'all? Seriously?

I'm arguing for the health and well-being of these wonderful creatures called reptiles. I'm trying to get people to think logically and critically. I'm trying to get people to stop thinking about only what's best for themselves.

I guess if that makes me look like I think I'm better than others, then so be it.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

All the people making accusations about breeders freezing their healthy normal males, who are the breeders? Can you substantiate your claims? From what I understand most big breeders sell them to pet stores.

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There are probably more people who do this then is realized. I've been told in confidence by people who do this, and no I'm not going to 'prove it' because I don't go around betraying confidences. It's not something I would personally do, but I also don't believe that I have a right to make demands on how other people handle their animals. As long as it's a 'humane' euthanasia, whatever their reasons for doing so, are THEIR reasons.

Having worked next to a couple vets, and talked to several vets and several vet techs.. the whole "drug euthanisia" for reptiles SUCKS. The animal takes forever to actually die. I've been told of firsthand accounts of tortoises and boas and pythons all taking long long hours to die, and since the heart just refused to stop beating, they eventually PUT IT IN THE FREEZER.

If a vet who is supposed to know how to do it best, tells me he/she puts the animal in the freezer becuase it's quicker and more humane, and like Wes said, the animals do not move around trying to escape, then I'll go with that idea.

Just because you spend more money to kill the animal doesn't mean that it's less painful. If you REALLY wanted to make a instantaneous death, you would brain the animal with a small(or large) sledgehammer, to cause instant brain disfunction. Brutal? Yes. But it's definitely the fastest death, and thus by timing, the least painful.

We can't tell really when a reptile is still feeling pain, or uncomfortable, or has a headache. (I also don't think saying the snake has a headache is anthromorpizing it, it's saying the snake had pain in it's head, not that it's sad). Reptiles don't show us much.

And as far as the "I heard.." unless the person told you "I do XXX" please discount it as typical rumor-mongering.

Every person who breeds snakes has to make their own decisions. Unless you personally have had a deformed baby hatch, then you'll have a very hard time saying what you yourself will or will not do. I used to say "I'd give it every chance", but when you look at a deformed baby who obviously will never be 'right', you have to make the decision right then about what you see in front of you, not as a theory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Having worked next to a couple vets, and talked to several vets and several vet techs.. the whole "drug euthanisia" for reptiles SUCKS. The animal takes forever to actually die. I've been told of firsthand accounts of tortoises and boas and pythons all taking long long hours to die, and since the heart just refused to stop beating, they eventually PUT IT IN THE FREEZER.

If a vet who is supposed to know how to do it best, tells me he/she puts the animal in the freezer becuase it's quicker and more humane, and like Wes said, the animals do not move around trying to escape, then I'll go with that idea.

Just because you spend more money to kill the animal doesn't mean that it's less painful. If you REALLY wanted to make a instantaneous death, you would brain the animal with a small(or large) sledgehammer, to cause instant brain disfunction. Brutal? Yes. But it's definitely the fastest death, and thus by timing, the least painful.

We can't tell really when a reptile is still feeling pain, or uncomfortable, or has a headache. (I also don't think saying the snake has a headache is anthromorpizing it, it's saying the snake had pain in it's head, not that it's sad). Reptiles don't show us much.

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Now this I can understand. Considering it takes reptiles much longer to metabolize things than humans or other mammals then it would make sense that just injecting them with some drug to euthanize them could result in a very slow death, or not even complete death at all due to it taking so long for it to metabolize in their bloodstream.

I think too many people are thinking about how freezing affects humans or other warm blooded animals rather than how it would actually affect a cold blooded creature. Yes it takes humans quite a while to freeze to death and is very painful, but we also have a body that tries to fight the cold and keep us warm, reptiles don't. The extreme cold will kill them far faster than it would us, so I would tend to believe their systems would shut down long before they start suffering in pain.

I also agree that thinking a snake can't have a headache because it's not as smart as a human is kind of... well... stupid. Pain is pain no matter what type of living creature is feeling it, and a headache is a physical reaction, not an emotional one, so intelligence of the creature really would have no bearing on the matter. (thus not anthropomorphizing it)

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Originally Posted by Eventide

It is against the law for vets to use freezing (other than liquid nitrogen as mentioned above) as a method for euthanasia.

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Upon what, specifically, is this statement based?

I wanted to quickly address the medical euthanasia aspect. Yes it exists. I had a Brazilian Rainbow Boa that I rescued and over a few years it never did get better. Turns out it had been starved for a long time and kept without water. It was tested for everything possible, all negative. In the end, the conclusion was that it suffered from irreversible kidney damage from the neglect. Whether this is true or not, it just wasn't getting better. I took it to the vet and had it medically euthanized. I was there when it was given the injection and held it until it died in less than 2 minutes. The vet checked for a heartbeat to insure it wasn't still alive. So yes, it is possible.

Originally Posted by Eventide


It is against the law for vets to use freezing (other than liquid nitrogen as mentioned above) as a method for euthanasia.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Upon what, specifically, is this statement based?

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It may not be against the law for a veterinarian to perform a reptile euthanasia via freezing, however, since the American Veterinary Medical Association has determined that it is inhumane to do so, there could be consequences for a veterinarian doing so. If they were reported, they may be called before a board and reprimanded. Repeat violations could jeopardize their license.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Having worked next to a couple vets, and talked to several vets and several vet techs.. the whole "drug euthanisia" for reptiles SUCKS. The animal takes forever to actually die. I've been told of firsthand accounts of tortoises and boas and pythons all taking long long hours to die, and since the heart just refused to stop beating, they eventually PUT IT IN THE FREEZER.

If a vet who is supposed to know how to do it best, tells me he/she puts the animal in the freezer becuase it's quicker and more humane, and like Wes said, the animals do not move around trying to escape, then I'll go with that idea.

Just because you spend more money to kill the animal doesn't mean that it's less painful. If you REALLY wanted to make a instantaneous death, you would brain the animal with a small(or large) sledgehammer, to cause instant brain disfunction. Brutal? Yes. But it's definitely the fastest death, and thus by timing, the least painful.

We can't tell really when a reptile is still feeling pain, or uncomfortable, or has a headache. (I also don't think saying the snake has a headache is anthromorpizing it, it's saying the snake had pain in it's head, not that it's sad). Reptiles don't show us much.

And as far as the "I heard.." unless the person told you "I do XXX" please discount it as typical rumor-mongering.

Every person who breeds snakes has to make their own decisions. Unless you personally have had a deformed baby hatch, then you'll have a very hard time saying what you yourself will or will not do. I used to say "I'd give it every chance", but when you look at a deformed baby who obviously will never be 'right', you have to make the decision right then about what you see in front of you, not as a theory.

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I think we should keep in mind that it is not just the TIME it takes for a reptile to die, but the sensory experience as well. While a euthanasia performed by a veterinarian may take longer, the drugs used do not create pain in the animal; indeed, the do the opposite, they are powerful analgesics. So, if a veterinarian gives a lethal injection of a drug with the intent of euthanasia, analgesia will take place before death. This means that the animal will not experience pain, but will slowly lose consciousness, followed by the cessation of heart function and brain function. The route of the injection will determine how long this process takes. If it is directly in the blood stream it is quicker than if it is in the body cavity or liver, for example.

Freezing may be quicker in some cases, but there is no analgesia involved. The types of tissues most affected by cooler temperature are the cells involved in muscle function, not nervous function. So while the reptile may not be able to move, there is still neurological function, and having your tissues freeze is certainly painful. Even at very low temperatures reptile species retain consciousness. Indeed, there have been many scientific studies conducted on pain and function at low temperatures.

Again, I emphasize that there have been scientific studies conducted on reptile pain. And yes, “we” do know things about what reptiles feel and whether it is painful. Many people do research on this kind of stuff for a living.

Stephen L. Barten DVM, News from the North Bay, Feb 1994: http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html

AVMA Guidelines for Euthanasia (freezing is discussed on page 21): http://www.avma.org/resources/euthanasia.pdf

Duke University: http://vetmed.duhs.duke.edu/guidelin...sia_agents.htm

UC Berkeley: http://www.acuc.berkeley.edu/assets/...euthanasia.pdf

http://www.mtsu.edu/iacuc/documents/...Guidelines.doc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eventide

Stephen L. Barten DVM, News from the North Bay, Feb 1994: http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html

AVMA Guidelines for Euthanasia (freezing is discussed on page 21): http://www.avma.org/resources/euthanasia.pdf

Duke University: http://vetmed.duhs.duke.edu/guidelin...sia_agents.htm

UC Berkeley: http://www.acuc.berkeley.edu/assets/...euthanasia.pdf

http://www.mtsu.edu/iacuc/documents/...Guidelines.doc

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So, there is no law.

Which makes you a liar.

Since you will lie so freely, I choose view ALL that you post with a high degree of suspicion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chocolate1

I think we should keep in mind that it is not just the TIME it takes for a reptile to die, but the sensory experience as well. While a euthanasia performed by a veterinarian may take longer, the drugs used do not create pain in the animal; indeed, the do the opposite, they are powerful analgesics. So, if a veterinarian gives a lethal injection of a drug with the intent of euthanasia, analgesia will take place before death. This means that the animal will not experience pain, but will slowly lose consciousness, followed by the cessation of heart function and brain function. The route of the injection will determine how long this process takes. If it is directly in the blood stream it is quicker than if it is in the body cavity or liver, for example.

Freezing may be quicker in some cases, but there is no analgesia involved. The types of tissues most affected by cooler temperature are the cells involved in muscle function, not nervous function. So while the reptile may not be able to move, there is still neurological function, and having your tissues freeze is certainly painful. Even at very low temperatures reptile species retain consciousness. Indeed, there have been many scientific studies conducted on pain and function at low temperatures.

Again, I emphasize that there have been scientific studies conducted on reptile pain. And yes, “we” do know things about what reptiles feel and whether it is painful. Many people do research on this kind of stuff for a living.

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You know, for a fact, that anesthesia is used prior to lethal injection? I'm curious about these studies you quote as well.

Or perhaps you are saying that the injection intended to kill the snake is somehow going to numb the reptile prior to it's dying but post injection?

You're using awfully big words and I'm not familiar with all of them. Please clarify.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

So, there is no law.

Which makes you a liar.

Since you will lie so freely, I choose view ALL that you post with a high degree of suspicion.

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I do not intentionally lie, thank you very much. I also find it fascinating that instead of arguing logically with my comments and the sources I cited, you prefer, instead, to personally attack me and take the easy route and just dismiss me without any shred of evidence that what I have been saying about freezing is wrong. Way to go.

My friend stated the "against the law" comment. I will ask her for additional citations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eventide

i do not intentionally lie, thank you very much. I also find it fascinating that instead of arguing logically with my comments and the sources i cited, you prefer, instead, to personally attack me and take the easy route and just dismiss me without any shred of evidence that what i have been saying about freezing is wrong. Way to go.

My friend stated the "against the law" comment. I will ask her for additional citations.

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lol

I just had the unpleasant experience of having a pet euthanized about two years ago. Actually for the same reason this thread originally started. A breeder sold Buster (springer spaniel) after beating him severely or knowing that he was born with a neurological problem.
Buster was dumped by his previous owners, my family and I made an attempt to take him in as a family pet. Buster was a fearful animal, fearful of men, his water/food bowl, leafs, everything. Towards the end, he had bitten my brother twice, unprovoked. We decided, that after a year of hard work that it would be best to have him put down.
He was taken to our vet where he was first given a sedative. The sedative made him start to have convulsions (proof of brain trauma, or genetic malfunction). Then, the "lethal" injection was given.
In the end we made the right decision. Clearly, this animal (through abuse or otherwise) was finally put out of his misery. I actually feel a lot of guilt because I tried for so long to help him. He lived a very unpleasant life, even after provided with a good home.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by accidental777

I just had the unpleasant experience of having a pet euthanized about two years ago. Actually for the same reason this thread originally started. A breeder sold Buster (springer spaniel) after beating him severely or knowing that he was born with a neurological problem.
Buster was dumped by his previous owners, my family and I made an attempt to take him in as a family pet. Buster was a fearful animal, fearful of men, his water/food bowl, leafs, everything. Towards the end, he had bitten my brother twice, unprovoked. We decided, that after a year of hard work that it would be best to have him put down.
He was taken to our vet where he was first given a sedative. The sedative made him start to have convulsions (proof of brain trauma, or genetic malfunction). Then, the "lethal" injection was given.
In the end we made the right decision. Clearly, this animal (through abuse or otherwise) was finally put out of his misery. I actually feel a lot of guilt because I tried for so long to help him. He lived a very unpleasant life, even after provided with a good home.

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This goes far towards being a Good Person. You did it for the dog and suffered throughout, but did it anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eventide

Stephen L. Barten DVM, News from the North Bay, Feb 1994: http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html

AVMA Guidelines for Euthanasia (freezing is discussed on page 21): http://www.avma.org/resources/euthanasia.pdf

Duke University: http://vetmed.duhs.duke.edu/guidelin...sia_agents.htm

UC Berkeley: http://www.acuc.berkeley.edu/assets/...euthanasia.pdf

http://www.mtsu.edu/iacuc/documents/...Guidelines.doc

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I'm going to guess that your friend gave you these as well.

Do you favor parrots, by chance?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

You know, for a fact, that anesthesia is used prior to lethal injection? I'm curious about these studies you quote as well.

Or perhaps you are saying that the injection intended to kill the snake is somehow going to numb the reptile prior to it's dying but post injection?

You're using awfully big words and I'm not familiar with all of them. Please clarify.

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I have no idea whether anesthesia is used for lethal injection in human beings.

I can tell you than in animal euthanasia, the animal is put under general anesthesia prior to intracardiac injection. If someone was sticking a giant needle directly into your heart, you wouldn't want to be conscious for it, either.

Mader et. al. states that RAPID freezing (being dipped in liquid nitrogen) is considered an acceptable method of euthanasia for small reptiles (<40 grams). Larger animals may feel pain with this method, so it is not suggested for larger reptiles.

The one author states that freezing in a conventional freezer is an unacceptable method due to the potential for painful formation of ice crystals in the muscle tissue.

I agree that freezing a larger animal would be inhumane due to the fact that the body would take so long to freeze, the animal would most likely experience a long and uncomfortable death. For a smaller animal, I really wonder if the nerves are still capable of firing by the time ice crystals are forming.

I do agree strongly that it is better to cull deformed babies rather than attempting to nurse them through life. Even if they are capable of living a perfectly normal life (such as one-eyed or no-eyed snakes), selling it as a "pet" may be a great way to perpetuate the trait if the animal later falls into the hands of unscrupulous breeders. The only way to ensure that the trait isn't passed on is to keep it or cull it. Even the best-intentioned pet owner may have a change of life plans, especially with an animal that lives 20+ years, and you never know who might end up with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

I have no idea whether anesthesia is used for lethal injection in human beings.

I can tell you than in animal euthanasia, the animal is put under general anesthesia prior to intracardiac injection. If someone was sticking a giant needle directly into your heart, you wouldn't want to be conscious for it, either.

Mader et. al. states that RAPID freezing (being dipped in liquid nitrogen) is considered an acceptable method of euthanasia for small reptiles (<40 grams). Larger animals may feel pain with this method, so it is not suggested for larger reptiles.

The one author states that freezing in a conventional freezer is an unacceptable method due to the potential for painful formation of ice crystals in the muscle tissue.

I agree that freezing a larger animal would be inhumane due to the fact that the body would take so long to freeze, the animal would most likely experience a long and uncomfortable death. For a smaller animal, I really wonder if the nerves are still capable of firing by the time ice crystals are forming.

I do agree strongly that it is better to cull deformed babies rather than attempting to nurse them through life. Even if they are capable of living a perfectly normal life (such as one-eyed or no-eyed snakes), selling it as a "pet" may be a great way to perpetuate the trait if the animal later falls into the hands of unscrupulous breeders. The only way to ensure that the trait isn't passed on is to keep it or cull it. Even the best-intentioned pet owner may have a change of life plans, especially with an animal that lives 20+ years, and you never know who might end up with it.

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So far, I believe, this is the first mention of intracardial injection.

As such, either a further clarification by previous experts, er rumor mongers, is necessary, or this thread is just going to spiral on and on, with no one actually knowing what anyone else is talking about.

I have assumed that we have been discussing injection of lethal drugs into a vein or artery, not directly into the heart. For that I am unaware of any anesthesia prior to injecting in reptiles. I am not considering anything but reptiles in this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

You know, for a fact, that anesthesia is used prior to lethal injection? I'm curious about these studies you quote as well.

Or perhaps you are saying that the injection intended to kill the snake is somehow going to numb the reptile prior to it's dying but post injection?

You're using awfully big words and I'm not familiar with all of them. Please clarify.

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I would be happy to clarify. In lay terms, analgesic drugs prevent pain responses from reaching the brain. That is why you don't feel pain during surgery, or if you take a mild analgesic, it decreases your pain. When a vet euthanizes an animal, they can give them an OVERDOSE of an analgesic. Or, they give them an analgesic prior to another drug that causes death. The same types of drugs used to euthanize animals via overdose are used in lesser doses to treat pain, or do surgery. Freezing, decapitating, and pithing are all acceptable methods of euthanasia ONLY IF an analgesic (or anesthetic) is given before hand because these all cause pain. The animal should be at a surgical plane of anesthesia for any of these methods. Many reptile veterinarians use a pentobarbital drug that the inject directly in the heart for euthanasia. However, before they do it, they usually use an gas anesthetic, like isoflurane, or another sedative to render the animal unconcious. The usually use an intracardiac injection because reptile veins are relatively difficult to hit as contrasted with mammals. There are many variations on this theme though, and each veterinarian will have their preference. However, there are always first be analgesia or anesthesia, and then if first isn’t an overdose that results in death, and if the animal is at a surgical plane of anesthesia, then they must perform a second step. This can be freezing, pithing, decapitating, pentobarbital intracardiacally, etc, again, as long as the animal is unconcious. And, just to be clear, cooling an animal in a refridgerator does not quailfy as sufficient anesthetic to then freeze them. A cooled down animal can still feel pain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I'm going to guess that your friend gave you these as well.

Do you favor parrots, by chance?

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Um, actually, no. I did a little thing that I like to call research. Have you actually read any of the many citations I've posted in this thread, or do you prefer to remain in ignorance so you can insult those who disagree with you?

Also, as to the against the law thing, I will put it in Philosophy 101 terms for you.

Premise 1: The AMVA says that freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is inhumane.

Premise 2: "Inhumane" is another way of saying "cruel."

Premise 3: Animal cruelty is against the law and punishable by the law.

Conclusion: Freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is against the law.

Ta da.

Again--if there is a question about whether or not a method of euthanasia is painless, don't use it. The entire point is to put the animal out of its misery, not to create more of it.

I won't even dignify the idea that a larger breeder can't afford to have a vet euthanize deformed hatchlings. If they can't afford that, can they also not afford vet care for their normal females? I've heard of this, too. They shouldn't be in business at all if their priorities lie in that direction. If they can't afford to care for all of their animals properly, their animals should be legally seized. That is the way it works when people keep animals but refuse proper care for them.

But the bottom line is that the animals shouldn't be suffering. If you have to euthanize them yourself, then have the decency to hit them over the head with a rubber mallet. Don't freeze them.
At least the rubber mallet definitely isn't cruel, provided you use a proper amount of force. Either method is legally questionable, so you might as well use the painless method. If you don't have the cajones to do that, then take them to the vet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eventide

Um, actually, no. I did a little thing that I like to call research. Have you actually read any of the many citations I've posted in this thread, or do you prefer to remain in ignorance so you can insult those who disagree with you?

Also, as to the against the law thing, I will put it in Philosophy 101 terms for you.

Premise 1: The AMVA says that freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is inhumane.

Premise 2: "Inhumane" is another way of saying "cruel."

Premise 3: Animal cruelty is against the law and punishable by the law.

Conclusion: Freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is against the law.

Ta da.

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You do realize that there are no laws against cruelty to reptiles right? Not supporting euthanasia by freezing but I just wanted to make sure you are aware of that

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eventide

Um, actually, no. I did a little thing that I like to call research. Have you actually read any of the many citations I've posted in this thread, or do you prefer to remain in ignorance so you can insult those who disagree with you?

Also, as to the against the law thing, I will put it in Philosophy 101 terms for you.

Premise 1: The AMVA says that freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is inhumane.

Premise 2: "Inhumane" is another way of saying "cruel."

Premise 3: Animal cruelty is against the law and punishable by the law.

Conclusion: Freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is against the law.

Ta da.

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So, you lie AND use faulty logic.

Where Is that ignore button.....

I'm afraid you're wrong. Existing animal cruelty laws DO cover reptiles (at least in some places), and people have been arrested on animal cruelty charges for cruelty to reptiles on a number of occasions in the US.

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-09-...animal-cruelty

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm afraid you're wrong. Existing animal cruelty laws DO cover reptiles (at least in some places), and people have been arrested on animal cruelty charges for cruelty to reptiles on a number of occasions in the US.

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-09-...animal-cruelty

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Alright I see that but Im looking for the actual written law for it and I'm not finding anything. I saw stuff for mammals and other warm-blooded animals but I saw no mention of reptiles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

So far, I believe, this is the first mention of intracardial injection.

As such, either a further clarification by previous experts, er rumor mongers, is necessary, or this thread is just going to spiral on and on, with no one actually knowing what anyone else is talking about.

I have assumed that we have been discussing injection of lethal drugs into a vein or artery, not directly into the heart. For that I am unaware of any anesthesia prior to injecting in reptiles. I am not considering anything but reptiles in this thread.

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I will admit that I haven't seen many euthanasias in reptiles, so I'm going by what's written in Mader et. al, which is considered by many herp vets to be the definitive reference on reptile medicine.

I honestly don't think it is terribly common. Usually the patients are either going to get better, or we can't keep them alive and euthanasia will be unnecessary. I know that a gecko had to be euthanized last week at the clinic because its stitches kept coming out after surgery. I'll have to ask the tech what method was used the next time I see him.

According to Mader et. al., intracardiac injection can be used for euthanasia in reptiles. So can intracranial. So can pithing. So can decapitation. In all of these methods, anaesthesia should be induced prior to euthanasia.

It may be possible to do intracardiac injection on a very very weak, basically unconscious, patient. However, intracardiac is going to be difficult on a patient in this state as the heart may be difficult to find. If the animal is active and alert, the vet is probably going to administer anaesthesia beforehand to render it unconscious.

It is possible to do IV injection of euthanasia solution, yes, and IM is possible, too, but these are going to be VERY slow deaths and probably not the method of choice.

What you do is going to vary from patient to patient. As was already mentioned by the patient with the poor, epileptic dog, euthanasia is not always quiet, painless and gentle even if you make every effort to make it that way. The goal is just to put the animal out of its misery as quickly and painlessly as possible.

I'd like to see the research that was done to conclude that freezing small reptiles is inevitably painful. Reptiles and amphibians DO feel pain, that's certain, but it seems that they may register some types of pain differently than birds and mammals. This is suggested by the fact that reptiles will sometimes incur massive burns sitting on heat mats or other heating elements without moving away from the source of the burn. I wonder if freezing SMALL babies that will be solid and dead fairly quickly is really all that inhumane. I'm not saying that it ISN'T, but I'm not totally convinced that it is. Especially when you figure that ANY method of euthanasia has the potential to be drawn-out and uncomfortable for the animal.

Also, FYI, the AVMA is not the end-all be-all of the veterinary world (even though they like to think they are). The AVMA is an industry auto-regulatory body that sets guidelines for veterinary practice. Most veterinarians are members of the AVMA, but enrollment is not mandatory.

The AVMA also does not support feline declawing or canine tail docking or ear cropping, either, but these are both done on a regular basis and are not illegal in most jurisdictions.

AFAIK animal cruelty laws vary on a state-by-state basis.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

I will admit that I haven't seen many euthanasias in reptiles, so I'm going by what's written in Mader et. al, which is considered by many herp vets to be the definitive reference on reptile medicine.

I honestly don't think it is terribly common. Usually the patients are either going to get better, or we can't keep them alive and euthanasia will be unnecessary. I know that a gecko had to be euthanized last week at the clinic because its stitches kept coming out after surgery. I'll have to ask the tech what method was used the next time I see him.

According to Mader et. al., intracardiac injection can be used for euthanasia in reptiles. So can intracranial. So can pithing. So can decapitation. In all of these methods, anaesthesia should be induced prior to euthanasia.

It may be possible to do intracardiac injection on a very very weak, basically unconscious, patient. However, intracardiac is going to be difficult on a patient in this state as the heart may be difficult to find. If the animal is active and alert, the vet is probably going to administer anaesthesia beforehand to render it unconscious.

It is possible to do IV injection of euthanasia solution, yes, and IM is possible, too, but these are going to be VERY slow deaths and probably not the method of choice.

What you do is going to vary from patient to patient. As was already mentioned by the patient with the poor, epileptic dog, euthanasia is not always quiet, painless and gentle even if you make every effort to make it that way. The goal is just to put the animal out of its misery as quickly and painlessly as possible.

I'd like to see the research that was done to conclude that freezing small reptiles is inevitably painful. Reptiles and amphibians DO feel pain, that's certain, but it seems that they may register some types of pain differently than birds and mammals. This is suggested by the fact that reptiles will sometimes incur massive burns sitting on heat mats or other heating elements without moving away from the source of the burn. I wonder if freezing SMALL babies that will be solid and dead fairly quickly is really all that inhumane. I'm not saying that it ISN'T, but I'm not totally convinced that it is. Especially when you figure that ANY method of euthanasia has the potential to be drawn-out and uncomfortable for the animal.

Also, FYI, the AVMA is not the end-all be-all of the veterinary world (even though they like to think they are). The AVMA is an industry auto-regulatory body that sets guidelines for veterinary practice. Most veterinarians are members of the AVMA, but enrollment is not mandatory.

The AVMA also does not support feline declawing or canine tail docking or ear cropping, either, but these are both done on a regular basis and are not illegal in most jurisdictions.

AFAIK animal cruelty laws vary on a state-by-state basis.

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Ahhh I seee. I had been looking at the Animal Welfare Act so no wonder I couldn't find it. Sorry to hijack the thread

The only other thing I'd like to add re: taking culls to a vet to be euthanized versus somehow trying to humanely do it yourself is that some vets may not be willing to euthanize an animal that is deformed, but otherwise healthy. It depends on the vet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

The only other thing I'd like to add re: taking culls to a vet to be euthanized versus somehow trying to humanely do it yourself is that some vets may not be willing to euthanize an animal that is deformed, but otherwise healthy. It depends on the vet.

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Very good point. My vet wouldn't do that, per se, but I know he won't put down a reptile just because the owners don't want it anymore (and it doesn't have a life-threatening condition). I wouldn't doubt that some would do what you say.

As for the AMVA, I never said they were the be-all and end-all of the whole freezing debate. That is why I posted multiple citations, including some scientific papers on the subject.

As for the animal cruelty laws, it does indeed vary state by state. I went looking for summaries of cruelty laws 'cause I wouldn't doubt that some don't count reptiles (grr). Arizona (my state) specifically says "any animal under the person's custody or control." Looks like some other states do too, but sadly, some don't. Makes me sad.

i feel that i am one of the reasons this thread was started and i am just going to stay out of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eventide

Very good point. My vet wouldn't do that, per se, but I know he won't put down a reptile just because the owners don't want it anymore (and it doesn't have a life-threatening condition). I wouldn't doubt that some would do what you say.

As for the AMVA, I never said they were the be-all and end-all of the whole freezing debate. That is why I posted multiple citations, including some scientific papers on the subject.

As for the animal cruelty laws, it does indeed vary state by state. I went looking for summaries of cruelty laws 'cause I wouldn't doubt that some don't count reptiles (grr). Arizona (my state) specifically says "any animal under the person's custody or control." Looks like some other states do too, but sadly, some don't. Makes me sad.

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Thanks for posting those -- somehow I missed the actual papers. I'll definitely have to go back and read them. :)

Not that I'm hoping to have to put any babies down any time soon -- oh gosh, that would be awful! Of course, the other option, assuming it isn't suffering, is just to keep it around as a pet -- as long as it stays in your custody, you know nobody's breeding it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dmaricle

i feel that i am one of the reasons this thread was started and i am just going to stay out of it.

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I'm sorry. Please don't feel pressured into not posting because of the drama that occurred here. I'm not angry at anyone, and I don't get mad when people disagree with me. I am also more than willing to listen to others' opinions and admit when I'm wrong. I just get a bit annoyed when people attack me instead of my arguments. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

Thanks for posting those -- somehow I missed the actual papers. I'll definitely have to go back and read them. :)

Not that I'm hoping to have to put any babies down any time soon -- oh gosh, that would be awful! Of course, the other option, assuming it isn't suffering, is just to keep it around as a pet -- as long as it stays in your custody, you know nobody's breeding it!

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No worries! :)

Exactly! But yeah, I don't really want to contemplate when I might have to make that decision either. I've already had to make it with a couple leopard geckos.... I'd rather not do it anymore. :( Alas, I know if I'm going to be breeding pythons, it's going to come up sooner or later.

I agree, put it down.

Although, if the kink is minor and the snake can eat and develop just fine I wouldn't put it down. Personally I wouldn't waist a bunch of time assist feeding a baby for months on end either. I don't want a snake that needs to be assist fed for the next 30 years. If a cat needed to have food forced down its' throat every day most people would let the poor thing go, same goes for a snake.

You know... you "people" that are so quick to declare that freezing a reptile is inhumane.... Why have you refused to answer my one question? If freezing is so bad, what is a humane way to put down a reptile? What studies have been done to show that the way you mention is in fact less painful / stressful to a reptile then freezing?

What do you mean a snake can't have a headache? Are you kidding me? Are they some kind of superior being that is not capable of feeling pain?

Finally, I think a lot of the people holding hands and chanting "don't freeze, it hurts" genuinely don't have a clue, and aren't living in the real world. I am no way shape or form suggesting that freezing a reptile is inhumane. See below for what I mean about you kiddies not having a clue.

It is 7:00pm on a Sunday. The hobbyist ball breeder checks on his eggs and they have piped!!!!! He is so excited and filled with absolute happiness, until he sees the one in the corner is completed and totally jacked up. its face is all twisted up and its back is as crooked as a corkscrew. It keeps banging its head into the side of the tub... It looks like it is trying to open its mouth but its jaw is so crooked it can't open it.

What would you do? Keep in mind it is 7:00pm on a Sunday night. Going to the vet on Monday is out of the quesiton because you have to work Monday morning, and it is of course the busiest day of the week. You also have to do all the normal stuff of taking the kids to school and going to practice the second you get home from work. Tuesday probably isn't going to work either. Oh yeah, and keep in mind the snake is still banging its head against the wall.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Oh yeah, and keep in mind the snake is still banging its head against the wall.

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I say we get a miniature drumset for it to beat its head on, attach a sound track, add some soulful lyrics and put it on Youtube.

We should be rich by the end of the week.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

You know... you "people" that are so quick to declare that freezing a reptile is inhumane.... Why have you refused to answer my one question? If freezing is so bad, what is a humane way to put down a reptile? What studies have been done to show that the way you mention is in fact less painful / stressful to a reptile then freezing?

What do you mean a snake can't have a headache? Are you kidding me? Are they some kind of superior being that is not capable of feeling pain?

Finally, I think a lot of the people holding hands and chanting "don't freeze, it hurts" genuinely don't have a clue, and aren't living in the real world. I am no way shape or form suggesting that freezing a reptile is inhumane. See below for what I mean about you kiddies not having a clue.

It is 7:00pm on a Sunday. The hobbyist ball breeder checks on his eggs and they have piped!!!!! He is so excited and filled with absolute happiness, until he sees the one in the corner is completed and totally jacked up. its face is all twisted up and its back is as crooked as a corkscrew. It keeps banging its head into the side of the tub... It looks like it is trying to open its mouth but its jaw is so crooked it can't open it.

What would you do? Keep in mind it is 7:00pm on a Sunday night. Going to the vet on Monday is out of the quesiton because you have to work Monday morning, and it is of course the busiest day of the week. You also have to do all the normal stuff of taking the kids to school and going to practice the second you get home from work. Tuesday probably isn't going to work either. Oh yeah, and keep in mind the snake is still banging its head against the wall.

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I'd freeze it

Oh and add the fact that most vets don't deal with reptiles and they might mess things up even more. We have a local vet, Dr. Killmore (Keemore is his given name) and he has sent DOGS home to be buried that came back alive and brain dead. I would rather freeze than take that baby to any vet around here, none of them deal with reptiles in a 40 mile radius of me, possibly even a bigger radius than that! Although I'd freeze if there was a vet that knew a thing or two about reptiles. That's just my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eventide

I just get a bit annoyed when people attack me instead of my arguments. :)

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Yes, because we all know that what type of person you are, whether you are the type to bother to check anything, to take the time to verify or negate claims made, or just believe wholesale what ever you are told, puking up misinformation or outright lies, should have NO bearing on whether or not anyone believes you when you make outrageous or flat out fallacious statements.

Should it?

I get a bit annoyed when people lie to me. I get a bit annoyed when they spread misinformation. I get a bit annoyed when they lie, spread misinformation and then get all butthurt when I get annoyed.

I'm sure your annoyance at being caught lying and spreading rumors, unfounded and false rumors, trumps my mere annoyance at your.... shall we be generous and call it an enthusiasm for attention....

This kind of pertains to this thread (kind of joking as well)....Does anyone know if they still use nitrous oxide in cool whip cans? If anyone has ever read the book "frog salad" they get it.

I was also thinking, on this freeze debate, would people rather to simply chop off their heads or break their necks? That's quick and painless......and it's exactly how you off a chicken. I don't see why snakes would have any higher status that would require a vet, it's just the humane factor.

Personally I'd prefer to freeze.....it's less bloody. Then again I'm a farm girl who butchered half a dozen chickens the old fashioned way a few weeks ago. :rolleyes: