Unexplained Passing.....Any Thoughts??

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Originally Posted by SDA

Pine is only toxic untreated. Treated aka kiln dried pine is no more toxic than aspen shavings. They don't sell untreated pine shavings anymore for animals.

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Hm, I doubt that. There would still be toxic pine oils in kiln dried. I don’t know, I would never risk it.


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For Ball Pythons or any reptile that has higher humidity needs and lives in a tank I prefer any of the coco substrates !! They can be misted and tend to hold on to the humidity longer without molding.

Ball Pythons can be most rewarding snakes, but also most frustrating. While their most pressing needs are actually quite simple once figured out and dialed in, those needs are very important to them and they seem less forgiving then other species. Part of that is their shy and easily stressed nature. Heat/humidity all need to be correct but they also need to feel safe.

Some Ball Pythons will choose "safe" over the needed temperature, or over food.

Meaning, if they only feel safe in the cool end of their tank, they may hang out there, even though they need to be warmer. Which can cause havoc on digestion. If they even eat at all, not having the privacy they seek.

Tanks can be made to work for Ball Pythons. Its just a little more work to get everything working well. I prefer substrate, esp. coco substrate (whether fine like dirt, chunky or the golden middle, like Reptile Prime) You can mist part of it daily if needed (leave some dry areas for the snake)

Under tank heater. Controlled by a thermostat, which is a MUST. The temperature inside of the tank, right above the heat source (not measured on top of substrate) should be between 90 to 93 degrees. The layer of substrate shouldn't be to thick, so that the snake can wiggle down to get warmer or stay on top to be cooler. If you measure on top of the substrate, the heat below may be to high, and if your snake burrows down it can get burned.

Ambient (air) temperature in the tank and on the cooler side shouldn't fall below high seventies at the lowest.

Privacy is a BIG thing for BP's. You should have hides in the warm and cooler end. So they do not choose their favorite hide over being warm enough or cool enough. "Blacken" out the sides and back of the tank by gluing and taping dark paper on the outside. Cover the top as much as possible (around lamp, etc) You want some air flow, but you also want to create a "cave" of some sort, so they feel safer.

Feed inside of the tank. The small bits of substrate they may ingest are less of a problem then moving a Ball Python around during the time they crave safety at the most.

You can re-use the tank you had for your next Ball Python. I think you would do perfectly fine with another one. Just sanitize that tank thoroughly first and don't reuse any deco.
Your chances of success are higher if you go with a hatchling from a reputable breeder. Pick a nice, well established one with a bit of size to it. :)

Oh no don't get me wrong, I will never use soft wood shavings and never anything but coco fiber for my ball python. I wouldn't risk it. Kiln dried pine shavings would not cause a negative necropsy if they were the culprit. The liver would be enlarged and there most likely would be tumors which I think if I read right, showed negative in the necropsy.

So what I am really saying here is pine can be ruled out because lungs, liver, and internal organs showed normal which wouldn't if pine oils were to blame ;)

To put his into a new post as a thought... shock.

Reptiles, especially snakes do not respond to rapid temperature changes well. Ball pythons can withstand pretty severe temperature gradients so long as they are raised or lowered gradually. A sudden rapid change in temperature such as a body temp of 70 something degrees from a cooler tank quickly dumped into what feels like luke warm water but might be 90+ degrees is a rapid shock to the system. Now I am not being any expert here but just speculating due to the statement of a snake thrashing in water.

This snake could already have had a weakened immune system and if put into a rapid temperature change could have gone into shock. The fatality of it might not happen right away but it could lead to the snake's demise. This might not show in a basic necropsy because it would require enzyme and blood chemistry that is already difficult to get in a live snake, let alone a deceased one.

It is crucially important to know the actual temperature of not only your snake's enclosure but your snake. Unexpected and sudden temperature spikes can be fatal to a snake, especially one that might be weak from illness or stress to begin with.

Well, it says aspen bedding. Like the kind at the pet store for hamsters. I researched it before using it and I never read anything about it being toxic. That's why I used it. I know cedar is, so I won't even buy that at all even for house things or candles. I've used it after the ri. If it were toxic, wouldn't it have killed him way faster than 5 years?? We did have under the tank heat mats, but they kept unsticking, so we just used lights and kept the room warm all of the time.

Gosh, I didn't notice him being cold before the bath and the water wasn't that hot, but if that's a possibility, could that have actually caused his death nearly 2 weeks later?? And also, I do not plan to have any more animals period. I already went through our mouse passing away from heart failure a few years back and that made me decide no more. I couldn't handle any more passing away. They're my children and it hurts to see them pass. I never dreamed he would be the next to go. I have a ferret a family member gave me that they weren't taking care of and I found out she was sick and would have died without us. She has adrenal disease and it's incurable, only manageable. I know she will pass sooner than she probably should, so I always expected her to be next and prepared myself for that. I never dreamed a snake who is supposed to live 20-30 years would be next. I feel like any of them could pass away any day now. It's terrible. So, no more animals. I hope they are able to run even some tests on his tissue samples so I might have some answers. Coco fibers you say? Well, I do use that for my tarantula and I think I have 2 bricks leftover. I'll use that on my other snakes then. I'm sure they'll love it and it probably keeps pretty warm compared to the shavings or paper towels. I mever thought to use that for the snakes though. I'll definitely find those bricks tomorrow if I still have them or order some more. Thanks! And that's why I used the electric heater in the room, because it was getting well below 70 in there this time of year even with our heat on at night. And I have to keep the door shut or our cat will go in there and jump on the tanks. But as far as the rest go, those recommended temp gauges are on their way and coco fibers will replace what I have been using and I'll also invest in new under the tank mats. If they unstuck again, I'll just buy more! It'll be worth it to ensure temps are spot on and that if any of that played a factor in Naginis passing, it won't happen to anyone else! I still can't help but feel it was partly my fault somehow, even though I did everything I thought right and researched non stop, and partly something he was either born with or acquired before I got him. He just never seemed like any other ball python I have seen. Much smaller than the rest....I feel like that had to be a reason even if I'll never know for sure.

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Originally Posted by pentacle_400

Well, it says aspen bedding. Like the kind at the pet store for hamsters. I researched it before using it and I never read anything about it being toxic. That's why I used it. I know cedar is, so I won't even buy that at all even for house things or candles. I've used it after the ri. If it were toxic, wouldn't it have killed him way faster than 5 years?? We did have under the tank heat mats, but they kept unsticking, so we just used lights and kept the room warm all of the time.

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Before you said pine, now you say aspen. They are two entirely different trees, so you are confusing me now.
If it is aspen then it is not toxic, not the problem.


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I'm sorry I meant aspen. I thought they were the same thing. I thought it was like an interchangeable thing. I assumed aspen bedding was pine. That's what I've always called it anyhow. I don't know trees apparently. Sorry.