So what's the consensus on Spider x Spider?

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Originally Posted by Daigga

Even if it isn't harmful, it isn't usually a particularly productive combination. Say I wanted queenbees when I currently have a male lesser bee and a female bumblebee. I could get my queenbees from breeding the two, but in the end I think it would be a more productive use of my female to put her to a different male and think about the queenbees in a later season. Since it's reasonable to assume at this point that super spiders don't exist, why would I double up spider genes when I have other options available? My males breeding potential as a two-gene animal are essentially being thrown away. I suppose I have increased odds of spider combos, but it still isn't enough to justify the pairing in my head when I have more appealing choices to pursue (my cinnapin or my calico pastel are certainly much more attractive mates for this girl!).

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I get what you are saying. However if I want queenbees I wouldn't buy a lesser male to breed to the bumblebee. If I have a lesserbee I would breed and increase my chances of getting the spider gene. Some people might only have 1 or 2 males and don't necessarily have different options.

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Originally Posted by bondo

I get what you are saying. However if I want queenbees I wouldn't buy a lesser male to breed to the bumblebee. If I have a lesserbee I would breed and increase my chances of getting the spider gene. Some people might only have 1 or 2 males and don't necessarily have different options.

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True, and if you don't have those more appealing options available then I suppose there really isn't any reason not to go for it. Though I wouldn't say I have a large collection, only 8 breeding individuals. For me it would just make more sense to pair offspring from the next generation I produce if I wanted those queenbees. A pewter blast or a super pastel calico just seem like they would pair better with a lesser bee in my situation. I'm always preaching patience, may as well practice my own advice, yeah?

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Originally Posted by nightrainfalls

so it is possible that there are homo spiders out there that we just don't know about. Still, we would expect that f1 spider x spider crosses would produce 25% f2 homo spider, 50% het spider, 25% homo normal. Under these circumstances, breeding f2 spider together should give us at least some f3 clutches that are 100% spider. We have been breeding spiders for a long time and no pair of spiders has consistently produced 100% spider litters. This suggests that homo spiders are non existent. It should be noted that the spider gene is either responsible for, or closely linked to a gene that is responsible for a serious neurological defect. It is highly likely that a double dose of this gene make it impossible for a viable snake to form and thrive. It is very likely that homo spider is lethal. Since some f2 litters have more slugs than expected, it is likely that homo spider is lethal at a very early stage.

Making this more likely is the fact that other genes that have the same neurological disorder have been shown to be homozygous lethal. For example, both spider and champagne wobble, and spider champagne in lethal. Champagne wobbles and super champagne is lethal.

In Short, double wobble= dead baby ball python.

David

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Put the drugs down and step away! You are clueless! Give Kevin at NERD a call,since he imported the original,and can educate you.;) Spider x spider is not lethal.

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Originally Posted by bondo

How many breedings will it take to prove it? Slugs don't mean anything a large amount of infertile eggs would probably though. A spider x spider statistically would be what 25% supers? I think there would be a lot of discussion if there was only 75% of spider x spider clutches surviving. I have only done a few myself never saw anything different about them but that is only a small amount for myself. Why would I or anyone else report their findings? I thought most thought of this as a myth.

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Make enough spider to spider matings to produce 25 or more spider babies. Raise all of them to maturity and mate them to normal ball pythons. If one of those spider to normal matings produces 10 or more spider babies and no normal babies, then the spider is classed as having a pair of spider genes. If any normal babies occur, then the spider parent has a spider gene paired with a normal gene.

If each of the spider parents in the above matings has a spider gene paired with a normal gene, then the odds are over 99% that two spider genes is lethal.

I'd also like to see the numbers of normal babies and spider babies from about 50 clutches of eggs. The expectation is 50/50 spider and normal. But even one spider gene might be disadvantageous. That would produce a skewed ratio.

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Originally Posted by grcforce327

.... Spider x spider is not lethal.

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Does spider x spider mean a mating of spider to spider, or does it mean a ball python with two spider genes?

Spider x Spider sounds like a risky idea ....surely the risk of 'wobble' will raise dramatically !!??

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Spider x Spider sounds like a risky idea ....surely the risk of 'wobble' will raise dramatically !!??

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Not a risky idea. Also the wobble is part of the gene so not sure how the risk can raise when it is there regardless.

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Originally Posted by paulh

Make enough spider to spider matings to produce 25 or more spider babies. Raise all of them to maturity and mate them to normal ball pythons. If one of those spider to normal matings produces 10 or more spider babies and no normal babies, then the spider is classed as having a pair of spider genes. If any normal babies occur, then the spider parent has a spider gene paired with a normal gene.

If each of the spider parents in the above matings has a spider gene paired with a normal gene, then the odds are over 99% that two spider genes is lethal.

I'd also like to see the numbers of normal babies and spider babies from about 50 clutches of eggs. The expectation is 50/50 spider and normal. But even one spider gene might be disadvantageous. That would produce a skewed ratio.


Does spider x spider mean a mating of spider to spider, or does it mean a ball python with two spider genes?

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The logic here isn't quite right. Bear in mind that people have tried to prove out a homozygous pinstripe for about as long as spider, and such a snake simply doesn't exist. Obviously no one here is debating over genes like pinstripe or calico being fatal in double doses, so it's fair to assume lack of super does not equate to lethal genetics.

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Originally Posted by bondo

Not a risky idea. Also the wobble is part of the gene so not sure how the risk can raise when it is there regardless.

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Well the wobble is an unwanted defect and most breed them with non Spider gene morphs so at least it's watered down to 50:50 chances but presumably if it's a Spider x Spider the gene is 100% going to be passed onto the offspring !??

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Well the wobble is an unwanted defect and most breed them with non Spider gene morphs so at least it's watered down to 50:50 chances but presumably if it's a Spider x Spider the gene is 100% going to be passed onto the offspring !??

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You can't water down the wobble, it's attached 100% to the spider gene (and the other wobble genes as well). If you have a spider, it has a wobble. End of story. It may not be severe, but it's certainly there.

I've heard wobble is just chance, and not passed on genetically? What I mean is, if a spider parent has bad wobble, that doesn't mean it'll pass it's bad wobble to its hatchlings. The hatchlings could be spider and with no wobble at all.