Has anybody ever used baytril in a nebulizer?

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

That is directly quoted from John Berry.

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Meh.

John Berry didn't come on here and personally help me, now did he?

So...thank you.

:D

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

patientz3ro all true but Baytril can be bought off the shelf now and has been used as the first 'hammer' for what 20 years? It has been used to treat RI and just about every other infection around. It is so often used and in so many cases when there isn't even an infection at all or for durations that are simply too short to be effective that many bacteria have become resistant to it, my vet in workshops with the big vet names (Jacobsen, madder) has learned some believe more than 50% of ri cases cannot be treated with Baytril. The same way with people, antibiotics are rotated the same broad spectrum being used by 90% of doctors to treat everything for 20 years is not going to be effective. I am assuming you are a practitioner? You know that resistance is a huge issue.

I would suggest that a culture is the best way to discover if antibiotics are needed (not actually a respiratory issue especially as many vets have little to know experience with reptiles so mis diagnoses are very common) and which antibiotics many be the most effective or at least what ones are not.

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I wish this hadn't started out as a thread about Baytril specifically, since Baytril is really kind of a bad example. You referenced it and penicillin earlier, and that's SUCH an apt comparison. Both started out as kind of a "magic bullet" that was prescribed for everything under the sun. It's a shame too, because for the organisms they still work on, they're absolutely devastating. Unfortunately, that's also why so many organisms are resistant to them. The upside is that while resistant organisms ARE a huge issue, they're not going to cause the apocalypse in the next few weeks. The majority of them are just resistant to the old standby meds. Vancomycin will still kill damn near anything.

Honestly, the ONLY thing I would somewhat disagree with in your statement is that one bold line. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't think it's the most correct course of action. MY personal feeling is that a culture is a way to determine if you're on the right track with a treatment you've already started. As I said before, we can determine the etiology of an illness within minutes with simple blood tests. That is, we can tell with a great deal of certainty whether it's bacterial, fungal, or viral. Based on that test, we start treating. THEN we wait for the culture to come back and adjust if we need to. The culture serves more to back up our initial diagnosis and tell us if we need to hit harder. While that's the customary method of fighting an infection in humans, I think it's even more important when treating reptiles. It's pretty widely accepted that reptiles have to get quite a bit sicker than most other animals before they start showing symptoms. In that case, I feel like the best plan of care is to start treating aggressively as early as possible. After all, if the organism I'm trying to kill is resistant to the drug I'm throwing at it, it's not like I'm going to make it MORE resistant. Think of it this way, if you were out fishing and you were charged by a bear, would you try to shoot the bear with the pistol on your hip, or would you wait for someone to bring you the shotgun from camp?

For the record, I would also point out that a very large factor in veterinary treatment is going to be cost, and for many people, that will determine the treatment more than any other factor. While I personally don't have a problem spending a couple hundred dollars to have the top reptile vet in San Diego treat a snake that I paid less than $40 for, I'm probably in the minority.

I see your point and also agree.

I guess my perspective is born of two things. The times I have had a rescue at the vet for RI the vet proposed a culture took the sample (lung wash) and then guessed on antibiotics as a temp stop gap. Until information on a better was determined. I have a good vet.

The second is the watching others, there are so many poor vets out there. I have seen posts of a vets suggesting short durations are appropriate (days not weeks) :colbert: . If the client (perhaps after reading this or other posts similar) expects a culture be done, that a inexperienced vet then has a need and excuse to relate to a lab and hopefully the vet will be passed recommendations for dose and duration that can accurately be passed along. The tendency of treating a snake like a mammal among inexperienced vets rather than admit they are unsure and consult is more common than I ever expected.

Baytril and Penicillin as we both know have been used randomly, there is a post not too long ago of someone posting that Baytril was used because there maybe an RI and then it was oral and only three doses. This is the reason for resistance. Baytril is a great drug it is a true miracle tool but sadly a tool diminished in effectiveness from over use and abuse. I liken it to a new kitchen knife it becomes the first choice and used for everything and used to cut on everything then one day you notice it is dull and notched from misuse.

patientz3ro I think we are on the same side really I don't like to see the use of a culture downplayed not so much for the experienced but the in experienced reading these posts. I think we both agree that a culture should be considered in most RI cases especially the reoccurring ones. The other thing of note is the culture after antibiotics have been delivered may not be a useful tool until they have cleared. The time for the culture is before antibiotics have been tried not after. After the culture yes an educational guess is great, it could be accurate or at the very least help and then be adjusted to be more effective.


Salamander, I usually post where information I give is from. I would not suggest anyone take my knowledge for granted, I am not a vet. I post the source so that someone gets a leg up on their own research. I forgot, distracted by the current discussion I guess. In any event you are very welcome!

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Mix 4ml F10 SC in a litre of water (dilution ratio 1:250) and nebulize the reptile for approx 30 - 40 mins every day until the RI is cleared. If its a snake, after nebulizing hold it head down and clean any mucus from the mouth with an ear-bud. If you see no improvement after a week or so, go to a vet. Nebulizing works if you catch RI early however if its severe you may also need antibiotics. You should also check your environment is set up correctly - temps, humidity, etc.


MAKE SURE you are NOT using the F10 SCXD!!!!!

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Ty, now, where can I buy f10? Lol


0.3 Normals (Coilette, Athena and Mary Jane)
1.0 Pastel (De Sol)
1.0 Spider (Zeus)
1.0 Mojave (Prometheus)

0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Stella)
0.1 BCI (Kiyoko)

Reptile basics sells it

Sent from my Droid RAZR M using Tapatalk 2

Sorry double post in accident :(

So would this be it, I see its call scvd, is that right?

http://www.reptilebasics.com/cleanin...fectant-200ml/


0.3 Normals (Coilette, Athena and Mary Jane)
1.0 Pastel (De Sol)
1.0 Spider (Zeus)
1.0 Mojave (Prometheus)

0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Stella)
0.1 BCI (Kiyoko)

No, that is just the F10 SC the only complaint with their products is the naming system. Lets not make it more complicated. They add dumb letters after things, why would f10 SC, F10 detergent be so hard? No, they use F10SCXD.

If you are purchasing it as a disinfectant as well. I would recommend also buying the detergent that goes with the system. (that is the f10scxd) I also really like the hand soap and the wipes as well (the wipes container doesn't seal well I stuck a bit of plastic wrap between the lid and wipes). The general issue with disinfectants is knowing it is working correctly. Short of swab tests and cultures following the instructions exactly is the only way. The f10 tech info is quite clear about the use of the f10scxd and then rinse and f10sc. I suspect any detergent or soap will work, but that is just a guess.

I buy from John and Mel Berry direct as they are the european and Americas distributer. They also carry the full line not just a single product of the line.

http://www.bigreptileworld.co.uk/f10...oducts-9-c.asp


http://www.f10biocare.co.uk/vetguidelines2.pdf