two ball pythons in one tank?

I completely agree with Skip on the pine comment. I've said it myself over and over again. Pine is safe. I've never even seen a bag of pine bedding in any store marketed for animal use that wasn't kiln dried. As it should be. That's how it's processed.

The only dangerous bedding I've ever found studies on is cedar. I've found studies which state that cedar bedding used with rabbits over time caused certain organs to fail. Of course this couldn't be good for reptiles either so I'd never use it. Pine however, is safe...

Many old school breeders used pine for many years. Still do. The breeders who started this wonderful hobby and passion for all of us. Why? Because it was all that was available aside from cedar. If it was dangerous don't you think we'd know by now??

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

I completely agree with Skip on the pine comment. I've said it myself over and over again. Pine is safe. I've never even seen a bag of pine bedding in any store marketed for animal use that wasn't kiln dried. As it should be. That's how it's processed.

The only dangerous bedding I've ever found studies on is cedar. I've found studies which state that cedar bedding used with rabbits over time caused certain organs to fail. Of course this couldn't be good for reptiles either so I'd never use it. Pine however, is safe...

Many old school breeders used pine for many years. Still do. The breeders who started this wonderful hobby and passion for all of us. Why? Because it was all that was available aside from cedar. If it was dangerous don't you think we'd know by now??

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I am curios then, why the switch to aspen? If kiln drying solves the pine issue, why doesnt it affect cedar (Im really asking). This is the article that I was pointed to when the pine question came up

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/Courses/...S%20ON%20LIVER

It talks about the effects of pine bedding on captive mice. It showed higher immune system activity, their livers were enlarged, reproduction rates decreased and they showed a preference of any bedding over pine when given the opportunity. I know these are mice, but many of the cedar studies were also conducted on mammals.

Now, I will admit that these are older studies, does anyone have newer studies showing there is a change?

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Originally Posted by aalomon

I am curios then, why the switch to aspen? If kiln drying solves the pine issue, why doesnt it affect cedar (Im really asking). This is the article that I was pointed to when the pine question came up

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/Courses/...S%20ON%20LIVER

It talks about the effects of pine bedding on captive mice. It showed higher immune system activity, their livers were enlarged, reproduction rates decreased and they showed a preference of any bedding over pine when given the opportunity. I know these are mice, but many of the cedar studies were also conducted on mammals.

Now, I will admit that these are older studies, does anyone have newer studies showing there is a change?

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That "study" has been discussed, dissected and essentially debunked. Much of the evidence was anecdotal, not directly related to bedding and rodents (but for example humans and sawmills) and several articles were soon written that dissected the claims point by point.

It's been covered numerous times on several forums. The article does nothing but highlight the folly of referencing shoddy and specious studies in order to make a point.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

That "study" has been discussed, dissected and essentially debunked. Much of the evidence was anecdotal, not directly related to bedding and rodents (but for example humans and sawmills) and several articles were soon written that dissected the claims point by point.

It's been covered numerous times on several forums. The article does nothing but highlight the folly of referencing shoddy and specious studies in order to make a point.

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Do you have any copies of the articles? Much of it is (especially under the pine section), about mice. For examples, the figures were taken from
Odynets, A., O. Simonova, A. Kozhuhov, T. Saitsev, A. Verreva, L. Gnilomedova, and R. Rudzish. 1991. Beddings for laboratory animals: Criteria of Biological evaluation. Laboratornye Zhyvotnye 1:70-6.


Again, as I said it is older but I would be interested in reading newer articles contradicting this one.

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Originally Posted by aalomon

I am curios then, why the switch to aspen?

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Well personally I don't use either.. To answer the OP's question: I use either paper towels or cypress mulch for my snakes. Depending on what's going on. I switch between the two depending on breeding season, or if one of them goes on feeding strike and I'm changing things around to get it to eat. I switch to paper towels for gravid females simply because it's cleaner and easier once the eggs are down. Paper towels for snakes in quarantine to make it easier to spot mites.

I don't use aspen simply because it molds incredibly fast if you need to mist it. Cypress is mold resistant and is a lot cheaper at home depot in big bags.

I use pine for my rats because it controls odor and moisture better than anything else I've found. It's also a lot less dusty than pine pellets and is much lighter in weight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aalomon

Do you have any copies of the articles? Much of it is (especially under the pine section), about mice. For examples, the figures were taken from
Odynets, A., O. Simonova, A. Kozhuhov, T. Saitsev, A. Verreva, L. Gnilomedova, and R. Rudzish. 1991. Beddings for laboratory animals: Criteria of Biological evaluation. Laboratornye Zhyvotnye 1:70-6.


Again, as I said it is older but I would be interested in reading newer articles contradicting this one.

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I do. Here's a challenge for you. Find one peer reviewed paper that links the use of commercial PINE bedding to documented health issues - not anecdotal inferences to elevated hepatic function.

Reading such articles is pointless unless you understand what, for example, the data means in relation to hepatic function. As I said before, these opinion papers published by bunny and rat aficionados have been torn apart for years.