Ball python "mills" *rant* (Not trying to offend anyone)

I'm going to have to throw my $0.02 in with Aaron, hooblah, and wilomn on this one. Why does it matter what a breeder/owner's intentions are, as long as the animal is being properly cared for? Ball pythons don't pine away for us to pet them - most are perfectly content if they are left alone completely (not counting feeding, etc., of course). I have personally seen more snakes, of all types, that were damaged by owners with good intentions (but poor information or motivation), than those who kept them primarily for breeding purposes. After all, if your females can produce $1000+ clutches for you two out of three years, or three out of four, or whatever, isn't it in your best interests to keep her healthy and alive?

Add: Oh, and I absolutely agree that we should help educate others whenever possible. After all, isn't that a big part of why we are all on BP.net?

As long as you take care of your snakes i could care less how you feel about them or what you get out of them. If you just breed for the money thats fine by me, as long as your snakes are kept in good conditions and healthy. I personally love my snakes but i dont go around forcing that onto other people.

I dont really like spiders that much, some are cool but some kinda freak me out. Ive been considering getting a tarantula though just bc i like to watch them. If i get a T and i hate it and never hold it will that make me a bad keeper? Not at all as long as i take care of it.

Another example is i dont reallly like rodents. But in the future when i hopefully get my own place and more snakes i plan to breed rats. I'll probably hate the rats and cleaning out their tubs and stuff. But ill be doing it for my snakes food so that justifies it for me. As long as i take care of the rats then i should be allowed to hate them as much as i want lol.

As long as the animals are kept clean, fed, and watered...Who cares? I for one do LOVE my snakes. If any of them became sick or died etc...I would genuinely feel sad.

I also agree that if they are not ready to breed...they simply will not go. Same goes for feedings. These are stubborn animals and have no problem telling us no.

As a really scientific person who also has a great love for animals, I need to agree with the opinion that you don't need to have love and passion for every snake to still be doing this right.

I have very little passion for my job, yet I come in every morning on time and perform my duties to the best of my abilities. I make sure everything I produce is quality and has been managed from start to finish with due care and consideration. I like to be able to stand behind my work with confidence.

I think the concern here is when someone takes a live animal as a business venture, and then does a half-fast, piss poor job. That's called an idiot for lack of a more forum appropriate description and the world is flooded with them. I don't see any reason to put up a specific fuss about idiots and lazies who also care for snakes.

General mistreatment of animals? I have a problem with this. It's DEFINITELY an issue that deserves judgement on a case by case basis, though.

You guys have made some great points and I think I will have to revise my earlier stance, I suppose snakes are a great animal to breed and keep if you don't have love for them yet still keep and breed for whatever reason.

Personally I wouldn't do it if I didn't but as long as you're snakes are healthy and you will tend to their needs fully and to the best of your ability even if it costs or inconveniences you then that's fine and you still get props because you're doing better than write a lot of people.

I'm in this because I do love the animals and I want to make some awesome combos. They're like Pokemon cards or an awesome puzzle....I'm fascinated by the challenge of coming up with mixes and what comes out. Its like crack to me.

In my rant I was predominately talking about the few idiots who take decent care of their snakes but at the same time are so much more concerned with the money than the animals health that they will breed a weak or too small normal female if they think they can eggs from her again even if it does risk her life unnecessarily, as she's "cheap and expendable," which is actual advice I've heard from a couple of people. "Well if you can get eggs from her again its worth it for what you can get for the babies." That to me is sick :(


So no, I don't care if you love them so long as you treat them with respect and take proper care of them.

If I seem wishy washy lol- I'm a true Libra: Present me with a valid point differing to my opinion and I'll usually agree, but if someone else presents a valid point on a totally opposing viewpoint I'll most likely agree with them TOO lol :rolleyes: I cant help it

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Comparing large scale snake breeders to a puppy mill is completely ridiculous. Puppy mills tend to have horrible conditions and many of their animals carry parasites and diseases. Since when do large scale breeders have issues such as this? I've been to very large breeding facilities and found all animals in excellent condition. Granted, outbreaks of mites, ticks and parasites may happen, but most breeders take care of the issue ASAP. Large scale "snake mill" owners I believe take better care of their animals than puppy mill owners do. So, IMO comparing the two is asinine.

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Originally Posted by dart

Comparing large scale snake breeders to a puppy mill is completely ridiculous. Puppy mills tend to have horrible conditions and many of their animals carry parasites and diseases. Since when do large scale breeders have issues such as this? I've been to very large breeding facilities and found all animals in excellent condition. Granted, outbreaks of mites, ticks and parasites may happen, but most breeders take care of the issue ASAP. Large scale "snake mill" owners I believe take better care of their animals than puppy mill owners do. So, IMO comparing the two is asinine.

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I think the OP's concern was anyone who considers breeding animals expendable for a quick buck. The rant wasn't pointed at large scale breeders in general, or even specifically, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

In my rant I was predominately talking about the few idiots who take decent care of their snakes but at the same time are so much more concerned with the money than the animals health that they will breed a weak or too small normal female if they think they can eggs from her again even if it does risk her life unnecessarily, as she's "cheap and expendable," which is actual advice I've heard from a couple of people. "Well if you can get eggs from her again its worth it for what you can get for the babies." That to me is sick :(

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yeah. People will try to pair for other reasons as well. Someone who just really wants eggs, a breeder who really needs his banana male to reproduce lol, or someone who really wants to prove a female out! This is just impatience. Again, it's upto the snake :P. I've seen posts of folks with "underweight" ball pythons become gravid because they house a pair together, and the tiny female only lays 3 eggs :weirdface. I don't really know the cold hard facts behind waiting til your animal is 1500 grams before attempting, but that's what the "how to breed" docs say, and if I want to be successful, I'll try to follow the book :P.

Honestly, it sounds like the old myth that people who care about money don't care about anything else.

If you're breeding snakes as a business....

A) There is NOTHING wrong with that.
B) If you didn't care about the snakes, why would you become a snake janitor as a career?
C) Just because you're looking forward to your female laying 9 eggs instead of 8 doesn't mean you don't care about her. Just the opposite.

A lot of the pride professional breeders have is in how well their snakes are doing--how healthy they are, how much they produce AS A RESULT of their health, and how awesome it is that they can make a lot of money producing gorgeous animals. It's all tied together, these are not separate things. Love for the animals, and enjoyment of making money with them go hand in hand for pros.

I get my females back on feed quickly whenever possible, because I want to see them recover quickly from laying, and I want them to go into the next breeding season in vibrant good health, sleek, and with hefty body weight and great muscle tone. I want them to look like pinup snakes, because that shows that they're up to the challenge of breeding. If they aren't, then they will need a year off--not only do I lose money, but if they were thriving, they wouldn't NEED a year off, so needing a year off is a bad thing.

As has been pointed out, ball pythons breed when they feel they are ready. If they're in superb health going into a breeding season, why shouldn't they breed? There's not only no evidence to suggest this is bad for them, but I'll go out on a limb and say that animals that do this are probably prime examples of health and good breeding--they recover from the rigors of breeding quickly, and remain in good health. Snakes that don't recover quickly and take a year off? Maybe they're not so healthy. Perhaps this means they won't live as long, that they'll be more susceptible to illness, that they aren't as strong.

As breeders, we want to produce animals that eat voraciously, put on weight quickly when food is available, stay healthy, and produce lots of great offspring--those are the same traits that make for great pets, too.

The more food you can put into a female before the breeding season, the better chance she'll produce a big, healthy clutch, and it will do her no harm. We want the females to be in the best health possible before breeding, so of course we would brag about stuffing them with food right away.

I had to put one of my girls on a diet one year, because she ate so much over the summer, she got fat, lol. She was a 13 egg clutcher, too.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Well 'darlin' if you know what I'm talking about, about which I have serious doubts, then you know doubt know what I have to say to your well placed quip.

Once you get your head out maybe you should do a panty check. I think yours may be wadding up.

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Lol. Yes there are different paradigms in which people hold. Everyone is entitle to their own opinions. I think that your interpretation of my original post is a little skewed, if you go back and re-read it, maybe with some assistance, you can see that I was not forcing my opinions on anyone. However it is a fact that people who love and know what they are doing do better at the things they do than others. What is right and what is wrong is open to interpretation. Also, I dont believe that the desire for profit in this industry is wrong as long as the snakes are cared for properly, if thats whats getting "your" panties in a bunch. Take care Susan.:banana: