What is Wobble?

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Originally Posted by Slitherous

Well, I am new to this forum, but not to snake keeping, and with all the in-breeding occurring to create all these different morphs it's no wonder a few neurological symptoms pop up. I find it interesting though that the spider morph in particular is known for the disorder. I remember back in the 80's having a single P molurus from a clutch which showed similar symptoms, (otherwise healthy though), but that clutch was from normal unrelated parents, and the entire clutch looked normal. I guess as long as the snake is eating and growing there is nothing to worry about from a husbandry point of view, but what about breeding a "wobbler"? Congenital disorders are rife in pure bred canines, and certain breeds have well-known tendencies for certain diseases and ailments. Are we as reptile breeders going down the same road with all of these "designer" morphs? I remember my sister spending 10K in vet bills one year on her pure bred dogs, and I for one could ill afford such a thing with my snakes. And, with prices of designer snakes fast approaching the level of pure bred dogs, (actually exceeding it in many instances), we are rolling genetic dice. Having a snake which wobbles but is otherwise healthy is one thing, but having animals with congenital tendencies to develop more serious disorders might be on the horizon, especially for those that persist in seeking the "holy grail" of BP morphs.

S

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The Wobble in Spiders has nothing to do with inbreeding...Neither do any of the other Ball deformities...Super Blacks, Caramels, etc...

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Question Alex:

A saccule is intricately linked to balance and equilibrium - correct?

Therefore if someone has proved that the spider genetics result in a deformation to the inner ear, it should be easy to find - correct?

Or does it sound like someone's attempt to sound scholarly to explain an unknown genetic snafu? To be clear, this idea of an inner ear abnormality has been tossed around for a few years, but like many other things, it has gained credibility just by being repeated often. I know of no studies done.......and I would hazard to say none exist.

FWIW: I have the Hartline pdf somewhere on my hard drive. It says pretty much the same thing that your link does.

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If it is an inner ear issue yes it serves a CT or even X-ray of a spider should tell if there is deformities. It should be easy. Yes I believe the saccule is linked to balance bit of a leap of faith on my part I have not read any studies saying so but it is with most other animals so logic says yes it is.

Often people do try to sound scholarly and misuse terms, confuse definitions, or just plain ignore physics. I was hopeful that there is an article with at least some research into the cause of snake wobble. I am assuming, you, Skip, have also no of no such research? Pity that, I would like to know for certain. My thought is a neurological issue of some sort and not a balance issue. It looks like a spasticity and poor muscle control to me such as can some times be seen in stroke sufferers. Again just a guess on my part no evidence just observations.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

If it is an inner ear issue yes it serves a CT or even X-ray of a spider should tell if there is deformities. It should be easy. Yes I believe the saccule is linked to balance bit of a leap of faith on my part I have not read any studies saying so but it is with most other animals so logic says yes it is.

Often people do try to sound scholarly and misuse terms, confuse definitions, or just plain ignore physics. I was hopeful that there is an article with at least some research into the cause of snake wobble. I am assuming, you, Skip, have also no of no such research? Pity that, I would like to know for certain. My thought is a neurological issue of some sort and not a balance issue. It looks like a spasticity and poor muscle control to me such as can some times be seen in stroke sufferers. Again just a guess on my part no evidence just observations.

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Alex, while balance is linked the saccule, there are other structures of the inner ear related to balance. We know how those structures relate to balance in animals that stand on two legs or four legs, but are not balance issues related to, well balance? Or coordinated movement? Think about what is wrong with the motor skills of a spider morph, do those seem balance related or do they seem more like neurological issues related to nerves or anxiety? You already answered that in a way........so I guess the question is rhetorical.

No, I have not seen any papers or studies related to genetic inner ear issues in ball python morphs. I think that this is an "educated" guess that has gained traction in the community..............or someone misread a description of the wobble in which it was likened to an inner ear infection in a mammal and ran with it.

The spiders I have seen exhibit the wobble only in certain situations - when they are stressed, hungry, horny, worried about the rising costs of Obamacare, fretting about the size of their hemipenes, whatever. They seem to have no movement issues and can strike prey, constrict prey, climb, etc. Sounds more like a neuro issue to me.............would you not agree?

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

The spiders I have seen exhibit the wobble only in certain situations - when they are stressed, hungry, horny, worried about the rising costs of Obamacare, fretting about the size of their hemipenes, whatever.

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You absolutely kill me, Skip. I really hope to meet you one day.