Fishy or not?

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Since I didn't get an answer to my "age" question, I'll try again?

How many months old is the snake? Like I said before, if the snake is more than 24 months old (2 years old), then the snake in question is underfed or possibly sick/ill/genetically inferior. But as I also said, if it's a LATE 09 some people COULD call this a 2 year old, which in fact it isn't.

Jim Smith

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It's been stated more than once in the thread that the snake is about 18 months old. Not 24.

I think the argument about "how much food they get in the wild" shouldn't really apply. Well, imho of course !

They aren't in the wild. If a newbie comes on here and says, so what if I don't have the perfect temps and humidity, in "the wild" the temps and humidity can vary depending on the climate of any given year, etc etc. In the wild they don't necessarily have the perfect setup as the terrain varies and not every snake will get the perfect spot.

Will we say, yeah, you're right...

Nope. Once we take these animals from the wild we have a responsibility to do right by them, as in do the best we can. Do all people do that ? No. I have no doubt that Sean does right by his animals, given that a few trustworthy people here seem to know him well and have seen his animals.

However, I do think that 220 gr. in an 18 month old is very small, even for maintenance feeding. But perhaps there are other reasons for this. Some snakes may stay smaller, some may be reluctant eaters.

I'm sad to know that some breeders think nothing to cull offspring or dump them off without any thought. Or underfeed on purpose.

I have no problem with maintenance feeding, as long as its appropriate in size and timing. But purposely stunting an animal to save $$ on food and shipping cost (and whatever else) seems cruel to me and I would never support that, even if that made me unpopular in this rather small community of Ball Python breeders and fans.

Again, not saying that is what happened here.

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Originally Posted by zina10

I think the argument about "how much food they get in the wild" shouldn't really apply. Well, imho of course !

They aren't in the wild.

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We HAVE to look at how they live in the wild in order to best understand how to care for them in captivity. Of course, just because they endure ticks and predators in the wild, doesn't mean we need to toss bugs and hungry cats into their captive environment. But we use what we know about their natural behavior to do our best to create healthy environments for them.

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If a newbie comes on here and says, so what if I don't have the perfect temps and humidity, in "the wild" the temps and humidity can vary depending on the climate of any given year, etc etc. In the wild they don't necessarily have the perfect setup as the terrain varies and not every snake will get the perfect spot.

Will we say, yeah, you're right...

Nope. Once we take these animals from the wild we have a responsibility to do right by them, as in do the best we can.

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You're absolutely right that we have a responsibility to do our very best to "do right" by them. But...how do we define a "perfect" temperature for them? How do we define a "perfect" feeding regime? We can't. We can give it our best guess, based on how they live in the wild. And because they DO succeed and thrive in a rather large variety of conditions in the wild, we have room in our choices of captive conditions as well. There are VERY successful, knowledgeable keepers/breeders who have a tremendous amount of love and respect for the animals they work with, who do not follow the "perfect" formula laid out on our caresheet. Why? Because there is no "perfect". And they have different methods that are equally successful at creating a healthy, contented home for their animals.

Exact formulas like you see laid out in our caresheet provide a valuable guideline for beginners to make sure they don't mess up to an extreme. As one grows in knowledge and understanding and their ability to read their animals, there is plenty of room to do things differently.

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However, I do think that 220 gr. in an 18 month old is very small, even for maintenance feeding. But perhaps there are other reasons for this. Some snakes may stay smaller, some may be reluctant eaters.

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There IS a lot of variety in how fast they grow and what sizes they eventually settle into at maturity. You can take same-sex siblings from the same clutch and feed them the exact same prey on the same schedule, and still see a big difference in how they grow and put on weight. If a snake has been fed consistently and appropriately and is still small...then it's very likely that snake was simply meant to be small or grow slowly. To take a single example out of an entire collection and condemn the keeping methods based on one snake's weight/age is ridiculous. (NOT saying that is what you're doing in the post I'm replying to, but others in this thread have)

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I'm sad to know that some breeders think nothing to cull offspring or dump them off without any thought. Or underfeed on purpose.

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That IS sad...and unfortunately, there will always be people in the business of breeding animals who do it for money rather than love and respect for the animals. Fortunately for all of us, Sean is not one of those.

Judy, I think we actually agree on most points :)

What I meant to say was that we shouldn't use the "in the wild" argument to excuse less then optimal care of our animals. I think it has been established by now what the proper temps and humidity and feeding requirements are for this species, BASED on their lives in the wild. Also based on what works well in captivity.

In captivity we can control the environment and keep it at the "ideal". In the wild, that isn't possible as to many other factors (climate, humans taking over, etc etc) play a role.

We had to learn (and continue to do so) from their natural habitat, but we also have to strive to keep them at optimum husbandry at what has been proven to work well.

I completely understand where you came from, but I've also heard that "in the wild" argument way to often when some people just can't be bothered to take proper care of their animals. That doesn't just pertain to reptiles, btw.

As an example, I hear horse owners say, why bother trimming the horses hooves every 6 weeks ? Are there any farriers "in the wild" ? Why bother giving horses dentals ? Not like they have their own horse dentist in the wild...

Its simply an argument which is often abused.

And I agree that there can be many reasons why a snake isn't growing as fast or big as another.

I just don't agree with people purposely under feeding for several reasons. Or doing even worse...
Seems like when $$ and profit comes into the equation, the animals welfare often takes the back seat. Again, not just regarding reptiles.

And not regarding Sean, obviously.

Just an example of snakes growing a different rates. I have two het pied females. They are less than 14 days apart in age. One weighs in at 925 grams, the other is only 675 grams.

Both are erratic eaters, but never the less, they grow at completely different rates. As a matter of fact, the smaller of the two is actually more likely to take a rat than the larger, yet she still grows more slowly.

While weight does matter, and so does length to a degree. I have learned to judge by visually examining the snake. An underfed, skinny snake is easy to spot when compared to a healthy animal. Just because it is smaller, doesn't necessarily mean it's being neglected. Just my :2cent:

Gale

Unless someone is neglectful or purposely abusing an animal it really isn't anyone elses business what they do in my opinion. The man was upfront and honest about the snake. Either buy it or find a different one from someone else. Is it really that difficult? Just my $.02...

Regards,

B