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Re: lesserbee X bumblebee?
Quote:
Originally Posted by marct
Has anyone on here ever personally tried the spider x spider project?
IF they have no one is talking about it much.So far its been just talking with no confirmations as far as i know.
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Re: lesserbee X bumblebee?
Quote:
Originally Posted by joepythons
A spider to spider would result in no normals.
May I ask on what you are basing this assumption?
... Because ... Before yesterday I would probably have challenged you on the genetics and said nope, Tiffany is right; spider acts as if it's dominant, so spider x spider (assuming both were heterozygous spiders from spider x non-spider breedings) should produce 75% spiders, 25% normals. (With either no way to tell if the spiders were homo or heterozygous, or with 25% of those spiders dying in the egg and being reasorbed, making the actual hatch ratio closer to 66/33, as Dr. Del pointed out.)
However ... I had a conversation yesterday with a very experienced breeder who claimed to have done spider x spider multiple times, and indeed, gotten all spider babies every time. He said, however, that none of the spider babies produced ALL spider offspring (all only 50/50).
This makes no sense whatsoever genetically (at least I couldn't figure it out; sex linkage almost works, but I feel like someone would've noticed that by now). However, I trust this person to have been telling the truth, and if he says this is the outcome he got, I believe him. I just wonder if it means there really is something yet more confusing about the spider gene ... Or if what he saw was a statistical fluke.
(Which is why I'm curious if you've heard the same story ...? :confused:)
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Re: lesserbee X bumblebee?
breeders name? this is news to me
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Re: lesserbee X bumblebee?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana
May I ask on what you are basing this assumption?
... Because ... Before yesterday I would probably have challenged you on the genetics and said nope, Tiffany is right; spider acts as if it's dominant, so spider x spider (assuming both were heterozygous spiders from spider x non-spider breedings) should produce 75% spiders, 25% normals. (With either no way to tell if the spiders were homo or heterozygous, or with 25% of those spiders dying in the egg and being reasorbed, making the actual hatch ratio closer to 66/33, as Dr. Del pointed out.)
However ... I had a conversation yesterday with a very experienced breeder who claimed to have done spider x spider multiple times, and indeed, gotten all spider babies every time. He said, however, that none of the spider babies produced ALL spider offspring (all only 50/50).
This makes no sense whatsoever genetically (at least I couldn't figure it out; sex linkage almost works, but I feel like someone would've noticed that by now). However, I trust this person to have been telling the truth, and if he says this is the outcome he got, I believe him. I just wonder if it means there really is something yet more confusing about the spider gene ... Or if what he saw was a statistical fluke.
(Which is why I'm curious if you've heard the same story ...? :confused:)
Well in my opinion a spider to a spider should not result in just a every day normal looking baby.It would be nice to hear more from this person though.
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Re: lesserbee X bumblebee?
Quote:
Originally Posted by joepythons
Well in my opinion a spider to a spider should not result in just a every day normal looking baby.It would be nice to hear more from this person though.
If spider is just a simple, cut-and-dried autosomal dominant mutation, spider x spider (again, assuming both spiders are out of spider x normal breedings and are therefore heterozygous for the spider mutation) should produce, in theory, 75% spiders and 25% normals. Since in this hypothetical situation the spider gene is not at all present in those normal babies, it should have no influence on those normal babies' appearance.
If spider is a simple, cut-and-dried autosomal dominant mutation with a homozygous lethal form, spider x spider should produce 50% spiders, 25% normals and 25% dead babies. Since I've never once heard of babies out of a spider x spider clutch being found dead in the egg or dying shortly after like the pearls do, those 25% dead babies would probably be getting reabsorbed by mamma in this theoretical scenario.
If spider is sex-linked ... Ohhh, then things could get funky. I don't think that's likely, though ... Eh.
As far as my conversation with this breeder went -- I don't know if I want to drop names as this person is now pretty much entirely out of the industry and I don't know if it is appropriate to tag his name to this thread. However, he was one of the first people working with the spider mutation several years ago.
This was entirely news to me, too ... That's why I was wondering if you had heard it before (since you said spider x spider should not produce normals).
It's entirely possible that I misunderstood him ... I also didn't ask how many times he bred spider x spider, so again, it's also entirely possible that it's a statistical fluke.
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Re: lesserbee X bumblebee?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana
If spider is just a simple, cut-and-dried autosomal dominant mutation, spider x spider (again, assuming both spiders are out of spider x normal breedings and are therefore heterozygous for the spider mutation) should produce, in theory, 75% spiders and 25% normals. Since in this hypothetical situation the spider gene is not at all present in those normal babies, it should have no influence on those normal babies' appearance.
If spider is a simple, cut-and-dried autosomal dominant mutation with a homozygous lethal form, spider x spider should produce 50% spiders, 25% normals and 25% dead babies. Since I've never once heard of babies out of a spider x spider clutch being found dead in the egg or dying shortly after like the pearls do, those 25% dead babies would probably be getting reabsorbed by mamma in this theoretical scenario.
If spider is sex-linked ... Ohhh, then things could get funky. I don't think that's likely, though ... Eh.
As far as my conversation with this breeder went -- I don't know if I want to drop names as this person is now pretty much entirely out of the industry and I don't know if it is appropriate to tag his name to this thread. However, he was one of the first people working with the spider mutation several years ago.
This was entirely news to me, too ... That's why I was wondering if you had heard it before (since you said spider x spider should not produce normals).
It's entirely possible that I misunderstood him ... I also didn't ask how many times he bred spider x spider, so again, it's also entirely possible that it's a statistical fluke.
Well then since thier is no proof then everything is just hear say ;).
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Re: lesserbee X bumblebee?
Quote:
Originally Posted by joepythons
Well then since thier is no proof then everything is just hear say ;).
A-yup :)
Although, now having heard that it makes me really really curious to try out a spider x spider breeding myself ... Maybe in the way distant future :P
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Re: lesserbee X bumblebee?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana
As far as my conversation with this breeder went -- I don't know if I want to drop names as this person is now pretty much entirely out of the industry and I don't know if it is appropriate to tag his name to this thread. However, he was one of the first people working with the spider mutation several years ago. Eh.
This was entirely news to me, too ... That's why I was wondering if you had heard it before (since you said spider x spider should not produce normals).
It's entirely possible that I misunderstood him ... I also didn't ask how many times he bred spider x spider, so again, it's also entirely possible that it's a statistical fluke.
who said spider x spider should not produce normals? it should.
any way you can email him and get some more info?
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Re: lesserbee X bumblebee?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser
who said spider x spider should not produce normals? it should.
any way you can email him and get some more info?
We talked about it at length; he didn't know why, but that was what he said his results were from the breedings he had done. I hypothesized that maybe it was sex-linked and he said he'd thought something similar -- though at the same time, that doesn't quite make sense either if you do out the punnet squares.
He said he thought there was a lot more going on with the spider gene than just being simple autosomal dominant. He was pretty adamant that he did NOT believe that it was homozygous lethal, however; he said that all of the clutches had the full, expected number of eggs, and that all hatched fine. (And were all spiders.)
What I failed to ask him is how many breedings he did of spider x spider. If it was only three or four ... Well, it's entirely possible that it's a statistical fluke, and I might even imagine that it was.
I also didn't ask him how many of those spider offspring out of those clutches he tried breeding to normals to come to the conclusion that there were no homozygous spiders.
I dunno -- I was going to pick up some more racks from him later on (that's why I was there in the first place), so I'll ask him some more about it when I see him next.
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Re: lesserbee X bumblebee?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana
We talked about it at length; he didn't know why, but that was what he said his results were from the breedings he had done. I hypothesized that maybe it was sex-linked and he said he'd thought something similar -- though at the same time, that doesn't quite make sense either if you do out the punnet squares.
He said he thought there was a lot more going on with the spider gene than just being simple autosomal dominant. He was pretty adamant that he did NOT believe that it was homozygous lethal, however; he said that all of the clutches had the full, expected number of eggs, and that all hatched fine. (And were all spiders.)
What I failed to ask him is how many breedings he did of spider x spider. If it was only three or four ... Well, it's entirely possible that it's a statistical fluke, and I might even imagine that it was.
I also didn't ask him how many of those spider offspring out of those clutches he tried breeding to normals to come to the conclusion that there were no homozygous spiders.
I dunno -- I was going to pick up some more racks from him later on (that's why I was there in the first place), so I'll ask him some more about it when I see him next.
ask him to post his results so its not hear-say
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