Put it down already

Thanks Dalishar, that was a good relevant story.

Problem is, snakes can't scream out in main. this is why common sense with the snakes condition must be used... Dont' just force them to stay alive because they are not dead yet.

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Originally Posted by grim reaper in NY

But, just because one snake egg pips doesn't mean all are ready to pip at the exact same time. Some may need an extra day or two to ensure or enhance their chance of survival before they attempt to enter the world.
You can say that cutting eggs doesn't harm the newborn snakes, and you might be right. But how can you say beyond a shadow of a doubt it doesn't?

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I have never heard of a ball python dying as result of someone cutting an egg. There have even been documented case in this community where people have mistakenly cut eggs weeks early. Still with proper care the babies turned out just fine.

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Originally Posted by mason

BUT on the spider issue if people had been less willing to accept thier behavious as "ok" OR breeders had been more open and honest about their problems from the off then perhaps there wouldn't be so many thousands of spiders bred and more people would have just said "no thanks".


It DOES interfere. a python in the wild that could not pip on it's own would perish. IT also can cause harm to the snake in the egg. if you just attack it without knowing what you are doing it's possible to sever some blood vesels that the snake is still finding quite useful. IT's just not something I think should be shown to people as a "normal" thing to do. It's a bit like probing, something people should learn, but something they should be shown properly by someone with experience of it but unlike probing it shouldn't be seen as essential or normal.

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Last time I will comment on this. Spider wobbling is a trait of the morph. It does not interfere with their eating, drinking, reproducing or life. Judging by their consistent very aggressive feeding response, they do not appear to be in any discomfort. The spider / wobble trait should not be seen as "problems"

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Originally Posted by grim reaper in NY

Do we do practice this technique with other animals or even humans? No. We do have ways of ensuring the maturity of babies in humans through modern medicine, hence allowing us to induce labor and so forth.
But, just because one snake egg pips doesn't mean all are ready to pip at the exact same time. Some may need an extra day or two to ensure or enhance their chance of survival before they attempt to enter the world.
You can say that cutting eggs doesn't harm the newborn snakes, and you might be right. But how can you say beyond a shadow of a doubt it doesn't?

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Cutting eggs in snakes and inducing labor in humans is an apples to oranges comparison. Whether I cut an egg on day 52 or wait until it pips at day 55, the baby still doesn't come out until it is ready.

the way I look at it is two fold

1: I'm limited for space and as such I know that I can't keep every slightly deformed animal I will ever produce. I also know that selling these animals is not only unfair to the animal but to the person I'm selling it to. So with limited space and no way to move the product/animal I know I will be forced to cull some of the deformed animals simply in the interest of business.

2: If the animal has the desire and drive to live. It eats and makes a whole hearten attempt at making a go of it I am of the opinion that I produce the animal intentionally and because of this I owe it the chance to survive in spite of its deformity.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Cutting eggs in snakes and inducing labor in humans is an apples to oranges comparison. Whether I cut an egg on day 52 or wait until it pips at day 55, the baby still doesn't come out until it is ready.

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AMEN!

I agree with you 100%

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Originally Posted by JasonG

AMEN!

I agree with you 100%

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Well, I'm obviously way off base here so I'll just shut up and apologize for posting in this thread.

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Originally Posted by grim reaper in NY

Well, I'm obviously way off base here so I'll just shut up and apologize for posting in this thread.

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No need to apologize. You made some good points! You were on track until the cutting argument. In my opinion it just doesn't belong in a thread about culling sick or deformed animals. There have been very valuable threads about cutting and what I would agree with is that many do it incorrectly.

I agree with you Mike!

We defy the laws of "Natural Selection" when applied to ourselves, and it's not just snakes we do this to. I've seen plenty of messed up dogs and cats that people should have put down...

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

2: If the animal has the desire and drive to live. It eats and makes a whole hearten attempt at making a go of it I am of the opinion that I produce the animal intentionally and because of this I owe it the chance to survive in spite of its deformity.

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Thanks for this! A few of you probably still remember when I took in a few animals that were deformed (some pretty badly). I fed them up and gave them some great homes as pets. I still have one boa myself... she is completely kinked, from right behind her head down to the bend in her tail. She would NOT survive in the wild (she can't contrict, nor move very fast), but she HAS survived here. She eats well every week, she sheds and poos like normal... she just has a little trouble getting around. And I try to make that as painless as possible for her. Fact is, she's six feet of absolute sweetness, one of the nicest snakes I've ever had the pleasure of dealing with.

So, my question to the those who cull: you brough an animal into the world. Where do you draw the line on it's life? You can't simply stand behind nature and say they wouldn't have survived otherwise. Very few carmels or super cinnys are born in the wild. WE create these animals... and, as long as they're willing to give it a fighting chance, I feel we have a responsibility in attempting to give them the care they deserve.

I'll step down from the soapbox now :oops: