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Re: Big bull snakes
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Originally Posted by goopyguy
I did not mean to offend you. I don't see the point in arguing.
I think you quoted the wrong post :)
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Re: Big bull snakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by goopyguy
The only reason I listed pituophis catenifer is that every snake labeled "pituophis catenifer" ssp. is considered a gopher snake.
No. Again, look at the last link I posted. Pituophis catenifer is classified as gophers and bulls. And this species doesn't even include the cape and baja cape gophers. Again, stop getting hung up on common names for this. Read the first link I posted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goopyguy
The bull snake is Pituophis Catenifer sayi. So they are technically the same species. Just a different subspecies right? This a question I am not trying to be a prick. I don't know a heck of a lot about taxonomy. I just know that "Pituophis" is the genus and "catenifer" is the species.
As I have said time and time again, it is a multi-species complex. When scoring animals, sub-species technically score as species when doing stats and such. Technically speaking, breaking animals up into sub-species really means eventually, given en enough time, they will become their own species due to many factors. This is an entirely separate subject that would take more than just a few posts to explain. It also requires understanding of genetics, natural selection and ecology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goopyguy
As far as looking different. I think bull snakes and gophers look and behave very similarly. They may have different colors/patterns but they are not that different. The way I see it, Gopher to bull snake is the same as Eastern Garter to Common garter snake. They are basically the same snake. Just some minor differences.
Again, having kept and bred both bulls and gophers, they aren't that similar. Look at the picture I posted of my big bull. None of my gophers will ever get this big. A few species of "gopher" look similar to bulls but if you look at the heads, they don't look at all alike. I suggest you look up head scale counts for this complex. This will show you the differences in the head shape and scales. They also act different. The majority of my gophers (basins and capes) are secretive while my bulls are more curious. They even sound different when they are being defensive.
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Re: Big bull snakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas339
No. Again, look at the last link I posted. Pituophis catenifer is classified as gophers and bulls. And this species doesn't even include the cape and baja cape gophers. Again, stop getting hung up on common names for this. Read the first link I posted.
As I have said time and time again, it is a multi-species complex. When scoring animals, sub-species technically score as species when doing stats and such. Technically speaking, breaking animals up into sub-species really means eventually, given en enough time, they will become their own species due to many factors. This is an entirely separate subject that would take more than just a few posts to explain. It also requires understanding of genetics, natural selection and ecology.
Again, having kept and bred both bulls and gophers, they aren't that similar. Look at the picture I posted of my big bull. None of my gophers will ever get this big. A few species of "gopher" look similar to bulls but if you look at the heads, they don't look at all alike. I suggest you look up head scale counts for this complex. This will show you the differences in the head shape and scales. They also act different. The majority of my gophers (basins and capes) are secretive while my bulls are more curious. They even sound different when they are being defensive.
Cape gophers = Pituophis catenifer vertebralis So technically catenifer does cover cape/ baja gophers.
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You know what, just believe what you want. The paper I listed clearly splits off the capes from the gopher and bulls. I posted scientific data, you can believe people's websites. This is a lost cause.
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Re: Big bull snakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas339
You know what, just believe what you want. The paper I listed clearly splits off the capes from the gopher and bulls. I posted scientific data, you can believe people's websites. This is a lost cause.
The only thing I was arguing was that the bull snakes are considered a type of gopher snake and are very similar. This doesn't matter if capes are separated. Yes there are some differences between the two. But they are in no way a completely separate species. The difference between bull snakes and gophers are only as large differences between checkered garter snake and butlers garter snakes. They are still both garter snakes. Just like bull snakes and gopher snakes. Saying bull snakes get larger than all other gopher snakes is irrelevant. Different types of gopher snakes are either smaller or larger than other types of gophers. Just because bull snakes tend to be larger than other gopher snakes does not mean the are not gopher snakes. If San Diego gopher snakes get larger than sonorans does that mean sonorans aren't gopher snakes? The paper you provided never said one time that bull snakes are not type of gopher snakes. And If you want to get scientific here you go http://www.asihcopeiaonline.org/doi/...P%5D2.0.CO%3B2 this abstract clearly defines Pituophis catenifer as the Gopher snake. heres more http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...nticated=false. http://www.kingsnake.com/pituophis/species.html This website clearly shows the bull snakes as a type of gopher snake via phylogeny tree. Also, just because you observed different sound and or behavior from two different snakes does not mean they are all that different either. My male and female bull snake act nothing like one another. My male hisses and does all the typical behaviors. My female is feisty until i get her out of her cage. Then she is chilled out like a ball python. Since bull snakes are the same genus and species as most gopher snakes. They are simply a subspecies of gopher. In other words, Bull snakes are a type of gopher snake.
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The bull snake is as close to a western diamond as I'll ever get. They've got gorgeous patterns.
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The articles you posted are from 2003 and 2002. The other post was from kingsnake.....who knows how old that is. The most recent molecular evidence splits the animals as I have said.
But who cares. You are going to believe what you want. It is obvious you don't want to deal with facts and want to act like a big shot. I don't care honestly. Believe what you want. The rest of us will rely on facts. And again you are getting hung up on common name crap. Just because you have 2 bull snakes doesn't mean you know all of Pituophis.
But keep arguing.
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Re: Big bull snakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodieh
The bull snake is as close to a western diamond as I'll ever get. They've got gorgeous patterns.
You should be out looking for Stillwater locale bulls! You are in the right location!!
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Re: Big bull snakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by goopyguy
Since bull snakes are the same genus and species as most gopher snakes. They are simply a subspecies of gopher. In other words, Bull snakes are a type of gopher snake.
I guess all carpet pythons are the same as well. I mean they are all in the same species so there must not be any major differences. You know, just color, pattern, length, girth, location, genetics......nothing major. They all "act" like carpet pythons so it must be true. And hey, it's on the internet.
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