PAM ripped me off?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Excellent point on the dogfood. I prefer a framing hammer for that kind of work. I like the nice straight claws, so heavy and shiny and oh my, I'll be right back....

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ok ok we are getting a lil too lusty over hammers here. your getting me all bothered. now i miss my 12lb sledge hammer.... maybe i should go see how she is at lunch.... lol

wilomn, i always enjoy your posts. they are to the point, insightful, no BS and some times even funneh :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I was directed to a local nursery that uses and sells hypoaspis mites.

I was skeptical but they gave me free container to use and I'll be dad-gummed if it didn't work. After reading up on the web I was surprised to find out that they are frequently employed to eliminate snake mites.

I know you can get them on-line and some nurseries where I live carry them.....I have no idea if they are available in your area.

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ok i do have google but i'd prefer if you explained to me what it is and does haha. and for the soap bath, can i just use the jerrasimite instead? cause in my case i think it kills the live ones off of him, but then when i return him to his normal enclosure more have already been "made". also i would like some critique on my method with jerrasimite...so here it is

1.i spray jerrasimite on toilet paper so he can rub it on his belly himself, and usually a few mites come off immediatly, then i pray some on my hands so i can get his back, lightly so he's not soaked, just moistened.

2. i put him in his captive tub, which is about the size of what alot of people have for normal enclosures...50 qt. lots of drilled holes on top..with a computer paper bedding because im outta paper towels, i put in his bowl, but this time im putting his bowl in the freezer so im putting in a tupperware temp.

3. i let him spend a few hours in there while i spray his normal enclosure, they i replace him.

this time i've taken some precautions and i have everything from his tank in my deep freezer right now short of the water bowl which im gonna put in in a little while. i even have his bag of aspen and his bag of moss in there. i put it all in wal*mart bags and put in one spray of jerrasimite and then put it in the freezer.

All critics feast..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Faber

ok i do have google but i'd prefer if you explained to me what it is and does haha. and for the soap bath, can i just use the jerrasimite instead? cause in my case i think it kills the live ones off of him, but then when i return him to his normal enclosure more have already been "made". also i would like some critique on my method with jerrasimite...so here it is

1.i spray jerrasimite on toilet paper so he can rub it on his belly himself, and usually a few mites come off immediatly, then i pray some on my hands so i can get his back, lightly so he's not soaked, just moistened.

2. i put him in his captive tub, which is about the size of what alot of people have for normal enclosures...50 qt. lots of drilled holes on top..with a computer paper bedding because im outta paper towels, i put in his bowl, but this time im putting his bowl in the freezer so im putting in a tupperware temp.

3. i let him spend a few hours in there while i spray his normal enclosure, they i replace him.

this time i've taken some precautions and i have everything from his tank in my deep freezer right now short of the water bowl which im gonna put in in a little while. i even have his bag of aspen and his bag of moss in there. i put it all in wal*mart bags and put in one spray of jerrasimite and then put it in the freezer.

All critics feast..

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Interesting. I'd also like to hear what others have to say about this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

You clearly have learned nothing from the multiple threads about this topic. Equate is not and never will be the same as PAM. It's irresponsible to keep insisting that it is.

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You clearly can't read

haha geez guys pam doesn't equal equate, and equate doesn't equal pam, but they both equal mite killers and on both sides we have die-hard fans...this isn't the civil war, but i could use some guidance on what im already doing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Faber

haha geez guys pam doesn't equal equate, and equate doesn't equal pam, but they both equal mite killers and on both sides we have die-hard fans...this isn't the civil war, but i could use some guidance on what im already doing.

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If I were you I would do this...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

PAM is always my first recommendation. However, if you can't get it, then Equate would be my second choice, based on what I've read from numerous people that I trust. I'd shoot a PM to muddoc or wilomn (just two who have posted here most recently about using Equate...not singling them out above anyone else) and ask them precisely which product to buy and how they use it.

In the meantime...to help ease your snake's discomfort immediately...make a bath for your snake (with tepid water that feels neither warm nor cold to your touch)...put in one or two drops of dish detergent...and let the animal soak in that for a little while. The soap keeps airbubbles from forming around the mites and they'll drown much faster. This won't prevent their return, but it will kill off the live ones that are bugging the snake right now.

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i've been talking to wilomn right now, and is the soap bath better than my jerrasimite technique?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Faber

i've been talking to wilomn right now, and is the soap bath better than my jerrasimite technique?

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I've no experience with either, 4 years keeping snakes but never any mite issues.

i got mites once... from the neighbor kids. there snake was being eaten alive apparently. so i told them what to do and let there father barrow my pam. i hope its doing much better. he returned the pam so im assuming.

a bath with some tepid water with some dish soap is a must. its extremely reliving to the snakes. even if your snake hates water it will love this bath if it has mites i guarantee it. my BP hates water. absolutely wants nothing to do with being in it. unless he has mites then he cant be happier to sit in a tub and soak.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffJ

i got mites once... from the neighbor kids. there snake was being eaten alive apparently. so i told them what to do and let there father barrow my pam. i hope its doing much better. he returned the pam so im assuming.

a bath with some tepid water with some dish soap is a must. its extremely reliving to the snakes. even if your snake hates water it will love this bath if it has mites i guarantee it. my BP hates water. absolutely wants nothing to do with being in it. unless he has mites then he cant be happier to sit in a tub and soak.

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Tepid is just the temperature right? and yea i've dealt with snakes for about 8 years and i've never had mites until i decided to go to petco for a snake..

Has nobody here ever heard of NIX?

Kills mites.
Kills the eggs.
Little bit goes a long way.

Just a little embarrassing to purchase...

Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Faber

Tepid is just the temperature right? and yea i've dealt with snakes for about 8 years and i've never had mites until i decided to go to petco for a snake..

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Mites SUCK, as they WILL spread. so just do your self a favor. find a product thats designed to kill snake mites and that lasts to kill the hatching eggs. treat all your reptiles. and be done with it.

tepid water is basically around 85*F which will feel wet, not hot or cold to you. another word of advice is wash your cloths immediately, they can hitch hike. also if you have carpet. i like to spray mine with PAM around the base of my vivs to ensure any adventurous ones kick the bucket too. Mites can become a reoccurring battle fast and its not fun.

oh god, you gotta be kiddin, haha i have a carpetted room, and i just did laundry and have my basket next to the snake tank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Faber

oh god, you gotta be kiddin, haha i have a carpetted room, and i just did laundry and have my basket next to the snake tank.

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im not kidding. they hitch rides. proof of point is. my mites came from the lil neighbor girls clothing that came inside my house to see my snake since they have a BP as well. they handled mine and bam literally a few days later he was infested. and it wasn't from the food items or bedding because i use the same on all my snakes and they are fine. just the BP, thats in the spare room. and thats the only snake they looked at. since my other 2 snakes are in QT i didn't allow the girls to see them. and low and behold like i said they are fine.

now i cant prove that they explore. they may only hitch a ride via contact or since they are tiny maybe the climb right out of the viv.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffJ

im not kidding. they hitch rides. proof of point is. my mites came from the lil neighbor girls clothing that came inside my house to see my snake since they have a BP as well. they handled mine and bam literally a few days later he was infested. and it wasn't from the food items or bedding because i use the same on all my snakes and they are fine. just the BP, thats in the spare room. and thats the only snake they looked at. since my other 2 snakes are in QT i didn't allow the girls to see them. and low and behold like i said they are fine.

now i cant prove that they explore. they may only hitch a ride via contact or since they are tiny maybe the climb right out of the viv.

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That just sucks! I've got to get mine takin care of before things go nuts:confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mumps

Just a little embarrassing to purchase...

Chris

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I see your point....

"I swear to God, my snake has lice..."

Nah, I wouldn't believe it either... :rofl:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vypyrz

I see your point....

"I swear to God, my snake has lice..."

Nah, I wouldn't believe it either... :rofl:

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now say it as u itch your head and flick your hair towards the cashier. LOL

I believe these mites can crawl about 12 feet an hour. Slow but consistent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I believe these mites can crawl about 12 feet an hour. Slow but consistent.

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really thats slow? when i saw them scampering around on my Ball, they seemed pretty damn speedy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffJ

really thats slow? when i saw them scampering around on my Ball, they seemed pretty damn speedy.

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Maybe it was 21 feet, I do that on occasion, but it was a fair bit for such a tiny creature.

Interestingly though, once they hit a barrier they can't get over, they stop, lay eggs and die.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Maybe it was 21 feet, I do that on occasion, but it was a fair bit for such a tiny creature.

Interestingly though, once they hit a barrier they can't get over, they stop, lay eggs and die.

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thats why i spray my carpet as well.

i know if any got out there would be eggs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I've used Equate for a long time. No problems.

I've never used PAM mostly because I don't like the guy who owns it, well, not him personally, but his methods. I also take with a VERY large grain of salt anything a company owner tells me about the longevity of his product. Didn't this guy try to sue against a competitor or partner or something to corner his bit of market? I seem to remember some underhanded dealings a few years ago.

It would seem to me that putting a snake in a bag with a powder that kills mites would mean that the snake was inhaling the same toxin that was killing the mites. Done in the long term, how can this not have a detrimental effect on the snake? Has anyone done any liver function testing? How about lung tissue?

Also viper, you mention that you use it religiously and regularly. How is it that you must treat so often for something you so seldom have?

Equate works, is available almost everywhere and while it may well be manufactured by a complete and total butthead, I know nothing of it as yet and that alone is good enough for me to use it. Add in the fact that it is one quarter the price of pam and I can go to just about any pharmacy to pick it up the day I need it and you can see why I use it on the rare occasions I have need of it.

It also works on rodent mites. I had a supplier that was REALLY bad for a while (one of the main reasons I started breeding my own feeders; quality control) and I used it on them with no problem, waited a couple of days and fed them to my snakes also with no problem.

Jaimie likes the guy who sells pam, has had great experience with it and is very pleased with the product. It does work, no doubt about it.

Bags and powders, while also effective, just seem to be asking for longterm problems, perhaps not seen for years after usage has begun.

Equate works, is easy to find and inexpensive.

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Good post Wes. My two questions with Equate are whether there is any long term damage to animals treated with it. I don't know the answer to that. The other is that Equate has no residual effect so in 30 days when new eggs hatch, there is a reinfestation. When I first started in this hobby I used Permethrin (lice conditioner from the drugstore) and treated a new animal that came to me with mites. It worked ok. At the time I knew nothing about PAM. Since then I have only received 1 snake with mites and I treated w/ PAM and it didn't spread throughout my quarantine room. I've even used PAM for rats when my colony had an outbreak of rodent mites from bedding. I think one of my big concerns is the novice just throwing a snake in a bag with a ton of powder. There aren't any specific directions for this method and there is no research to say whether it's safe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I think one of my big concerns is the novice just throwing a snake in a bag with a ton of powder. There aren't any specific directions for this method and there is no research to say whether it's safe.

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I'd go so far as to say if it kills mites, then it is not safe to use as it was in this thread. It just seems logical that particulates that are toxic outside the body would be just as if not more concentrated and therefore more toxic inside the body, especially with repeated treatments.

LOL funny you say no proof but
myself 10 years no deaths or illnesses from using it ..
people who been in reptiles longer then me using it same thing no deaths or illnesses ...
the ton of people i have recommended it to thank me for doing so
and they have not had 1 death or illness from using it .

PAM / death to snake if inhaled, but yet effective on mites
Powder / no deaths to date from using it and yet is effective on killing mites .


guess the proofs in the usage for over 10 years .

so use what u like , we all have our opinons on what works best
the OP needed help and i helped him .
if you dont like it keep using what your using , its that simple ..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheVipersHouse

LOL funny you say no proof but
myself 10 years no deaths or illnesses from using it ..
people who been in reptiles longer then me using it same thing no deaths or illnesses ...
the ton of people i have recommended it to thank me for doing so
and they have not had 1 death or illness from using it .

PAM / death to snake if inhaled, but yet effective on mites
Powder / no deaths to date from using it and yet is effective on killing mites .


guess the proofs in the usage for over 10 years .

so use what u like , we all have our opinons on what works best
the OP needed help and i helped him .
if you dont like it keep using what your using , its that simple ..

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I remember you now. Didn't you just get your first snake a few years ago? Weren't you the question of the day boy on fauna for a while?

Also, since you've brought them up a couple of times and I'm all about verification, just WHO else is it that uses this method of yours? Truly I have never heard of it until today.

I will of course, take your refusal to provide such as you not really having any.

sorry wes you must have me mixed with someone else your thinking of . i been breeding and keeping for over 10 years now .

Interestingly enough i can find 3 people on google who even use flea and tick powder on there snake. NO ONE that recommends it but you. and plenty of people saying its not a great idea. so..... yeah

maybe my google skills just suck with the keywords hartz flea and tick power, reptile, snakes. but i don't think thats it.

wow thats right google is the all knowing truth i forgot about that ..

LMAO



like i said do what u like its your choice use what you like its up to you .


its that simple ..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffJ

Interestingly enough i can find 3 people on google who even use flea and tick powder on there snake. NO ONE that recommends it but you. and plenty of people saying its not a great idea. so..... yeah

maybe my google skills just suck with the keywords hartz flea and tick power, reptile, snakes. but i don't think thats it.

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My thoughts exactly! When I saw the first post on this "treatment" I thought, that doesn't sound good at all for the snake:O I was going to comment or ask about it but, knew some of the more experienced keepers would so I waited. I just can't see how this would cause no ill effects wether short or long term to the snake. I sure won't be using this method.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheVipersHouse

wow thats right google is the all knowing truth i forgot about that ..

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Well, this IS the internets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheVipersHouse

wow thats right google is the all knowing truth i forgot about that ..

LMAO



like i said do what u like its your choice use what you like its up to you .


its that simple ..

---

well you said it was widely recommended. i mean so is pam and equate and when i google them i get lots of results, testimonials and advice for it. so you tell me.

im just trying to piece together your claims of this method. also just doing some light reading the active ingredient in the flea and tick powder is not recommended for cats or dogs, puppies or kittens under 6lbs because of health concerts. one would think any animal under 6 pounds could be susceptible to side effects from this treatment. When you apply a poison on an animal to irradiate a parasite there is always a possibility to poison the animal its self. one of the reasons why pam is safe and effective is because you don't apply it to the animal. so you can sing your song all day about how safe it is. until some one takes a sack jams there snake in it empties a jug for flea and tick powder on them and has a dead animal. it can happen. there can be no way you can protest this fact and guarantee it will not. Google isnt all knowing but it has pointed out some risks with the ingredients in the hartz products that you choose to ignore. so why reject reality and substitute it for your own? u know i bet turpentine or varsol will kill mites. and if u bath ur snake in it quickly it shouldn't be toxic. i mean hey we can wash our hands in it after working on an engine or painting right?

I've only BARELY skimmed through this thread, But I wanted to point something out.

What Shawn or anyone else does with they're animals is they're business. BUT when a controversial technique is used on "mites" for instance, that can be rather decremental for your reputation. It's better to just keep your mouth shut IMHO.

I WILL say that I myself use PAM ONLY.

I also wanted to add that the Hartz powder you use contains an Organophosphate. Im attaching a link to it about just how NASTY that stuff really is. Im glad it works for you and yours though, but I won't be using it.

Best of luck to anyone with a mite or any other health problem, and best of luck to you Shawn.

I post this info with the BEST of intentions to you Shawn and anyone else. I do not wish to start any trouble.

Trevor

http://www.idph.state.il.us/Bioterro...ophosphate.htm

This is what it boils down to boys and girls, IF you recommend some one a product that is poisonous to irradicate any form of parasite. make sure thats what its intended use is. otherwise Just because you have been doing it for 10 years does not make it safe. Bottom line.

Ive been smoking for 10 years, have not gotten sick yet. should i recommend you all start? of course not. will i eventually get sick from this? of course. But to base an opinion on a product and MISUSING IT and promising that its 100% safe based on the fact that you haven't had any problems yet is exactly the same thing. you know I can drive with my knee too.... pretty good to boot. does it make it a good practice?..... you know where im going with this people.

there should be no reason to promote the use of a pesticide in any way thats not recommended on the label period because you cannot guarantee the safety of the animal or the owner. If you want to do it fine, if they want to do it then really its there problem. but just because you have had said amount of time period between you and disaster is not a valid argument of the safety of the usage of said product thats not recommended by the manufacturer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffJ

This is what it boils down to boys and girls, IF you recommend some one a product that is poisonous to irradicate any form of parasite. make sure thats what its intended use is. otherwise Just because you have been doing it for 10 years does not make it safe. Bottom line.

Ive been smoking for 10 years, have not gotten sick yet. should i recommend you all start? of course not. will i eventually get sick from this? of course. But to base an opinion on a product and MISUSING IT and promising that its 100% safe based on the fact that you haven't had any problems yet is exactly the same thing. you know I can drive with my knee too.... pretty good to boot. does it make it a good practice?..... you know where im going with this people.

there should be no reason to promote the use of a pesticide in any way thats not recommended on the label period because you cannot guarantee the safety of the animal or the owner. If you want to do it fine, if they want to do it then really its there problem. but just because you have had said amount of time period between you and disaster is not a valid argument of the safety of the usage of said product thats not recommended by the manufacturer.

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Excellent post! In IT we spend a lot of time talking about best practices. We follow best practices because someone smarter than us on the subject told us to. We know that if we follow best practices we are less likely to encounter an issue. We know that if we don't follow best practices, most likely things will work for some time, but often it's a ticking time bomb. I could tell you that I haven't backed up my financial data in 10 years and no problems! Only in this situation, when the time bomb explodes it is the life of an animal at risk. In this case, not even your own, but the novice who you recommended some half assed penny saver solution to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Excellent post! In IT we spend a lot of time talking about best practices. We follow best practices because someone smarter than us on the subject told us to. We know that if we follow best practices we are less likely to encounter an issue. We know that if we don't follow best practices, most likely things will work for some time, but often it's a ticking time bomb. I could tell you that I haven't backed up my financial data in 10 years and no problems! Only in this situation, when the time bomb explodes it is the life of an animal at risk. In this case, not even your own, but the novice who you recommended some half assed penny saver solution to.

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a fellow I.T. specialist :P Im a Network specialist/admin and Technician. not for a huge corp. but im busy 6 days a week 8-10 hours a day. so believe me i share your opinion on best practices. there there for a reason sure other stuff works but for how long and with what repercussions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Faber

ok i do have google but i'd prefer if you explained to me what it is and does haha. and for the soap bath, can i just use the jerrasimite instead? cause in my case i think it kills the live ones off of him, but then when i return him to his normal enclosure more have already been "made". also i would like some critique on my method with jerrasimite...so here it is

1.i spray jerrasimite on toilet paper so he can rub it on his belly himself, and usually a few mites come off immediatly, then i pray some on my hands so i can get his back, lightly so he's not soaked, just moistened.

2. i put him in his captive tub, which is about the size of what alot of people have for normal enclosures...50 qt. lots of drilled holes on top..with a computer paper bedding because im outta paper towels, i put in his bowl, but this time im putting his bowl in the freezer so im putting in a tupperware temp.

3. i let him spend a few hours in there while i spray his normal enclosure, they i replace him.

this time i've taken some precautions and i have everything from his tank in my deep freezer right now short of the water bowl which im gonna put in in a little while. i even have his bag of aspen and his bag of moss in there. i put it all in wal*mart bags and put in one spray of jerrasimite and then put it in the freezer.

All critics feast..

---

I will make an attempt at a critique, as I haven't seen it done to this point. While I haven't used Jerrasimite, and never heard of it until this post, I have used Reptile Relief. I am making an assumption here, so someone correct me if I am wrong. I assume that Jerrasimite is similar to Reprtile Relief. If so, the one major difference I see in your application method, is that I spray a liberal amount of RR on my hands and work them together until a lather is formed. I then work the RR onto the snake, relatively harshly, so as to get it under as many scales as possible. I even rub the head, around the eyes and ynder the chin, as that is where mites like to hide. I have never had an issue with the RR getting in the mouth, and remember the label stating that it was safe to do.

All of the rest of your steps sound pretty good. In theory, if you clean out the tank thouroughly (i.e. remove all mites and eggs), and treat with RR or Jerrasimite, and can kill all of the mites on the snake, then your mite problem would be gone. Essentially, what I am saying is be very diligent while cleaning the tank, and spend a fair amount of time (5-10 minutes) lathering the snake, and I think you will have the best chance at eeradicating the pests. I would repeat this process every 2 days for at least 10, in an attempt to insure they are gone, since no other product has proven effective at long term erradication other than PAM (which you can't get).

I hope that helps,

Just give it baths and hopefully it works. I used Mite Off once and it worked?

Daniel

I will say that if you decide to use Reptile Relief, use it per the instructions. Tim posted some great info, but I DO think your only supposed to use it once every few days. I think every 2 is more often that what is recommended. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, Reptile Relief is kind of like salt water, its drying. What it does is it causes the mites outer skin to burst, it wont do that to your snake though:D

But if you are using Reptile Relief, I believe it is also recommended to soak the animal after you have used it to wash it off. Maybe right after, maybe a day or two later.

Its been a long time since I read up on that stuff.

I would like to say thanks as well. I haven't had to contend with mites yet, but I'm sure the day will get here and with all the info y'all are posting I think I can at least make an informed decision on how to proceed... :gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I remember you now. Didn't you just get your first snake a few years ago? Weren't you the question of the day boy on fauna for a while?

Also, since you've brought them up a couple of times and I'm all about verification, just WHO else is it that uses this method of yours? Truly I have never heard of it until today.

I will of course, take your refusal to provide such as you not really having any.

---

Still waiting on that answer there bucko....

Jglass

I use equate and have done so for years. When I post my experience about the product, I am doing so to help others. When you come in with insults and attitude, you are clearly not contributing.

This guy needs a substitute, and many others do. I am sorry you dont believe in my methods, and thats fine to say so. But dont do so with insults.
Try conributing in a constructive manner. Implying, I am stupid, and I Clearly havent learned..is just a useless attack. My knowledge on the subject goes far past the creation of PAM. I have read everything there is to read about it, I still will use equate because I have done so with Pythons, Boas, and other reptiles for many years before PAM was marketed. personall (me thinks youve been the one whos failed to learn), I have PAM and Equate, love them both.

Unfortunatey for you your Biased, I am not. I can use Both. We once again agree to disagree.
:salute:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

The other is that Equate has no residual effect so in 30 days when new eggs hatch, there is a reinfestation.

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I wouldn't say that the Equate brand lice spray has no residual. While I can't say specifically 30 days, I know it to work for a while after application.

I did not use the Equate to treat mites. I used it to treat spiders. It kills cobweb spiders pretty well and will continue to kill them for a good time after application.

I use it mainly in my reptile room (not in cages) as a treatment for spider infestation and as 'trash can gnat' killer. In my opinion, Equate is much better than those harsh chemical sprays specifially made to kill spiders, wasps, and flies.....the fumes from that stuff alone would probably take out half of my animals in the room.

So what i've done is sprayed a tiny bit on the glass bottom, then put in the substrate and sprayed a tiny bit again, then i put in all the furnishings and sprayed the walls and put a little in the air above the open tank like if you were spraying febreeze. is this safe or should i not put him back in that tank? btw i didn't have the water bowl in when i said the furnishings.