Most doctile snakes? I think not.

I keep my (approximate) 2 foot BP in a 10 gallon and she is as happy as a lark. All she really cares about doing is snoozing in her half-log hide but she most definitely comes out at night and takes a dip in one of two of her water dishes, lays on her rock stack, or cuddles up next to the heating pad (side-mounted). I keep the temp around 88 during they day and around 80 at night. And the humidity is anywhere from 55-70 (depending on if it's shed time or not). This works for Mas, but I'm sure she'd be happy with any size tank if it had somewhere to hide. I'm not an expert, just as hardly anyone else on here is an expert. To whoever originally posted this thread, remember that just because some people on here have "elite" member statuses, doesn't mean they know everything. I don't know about this forum, but on others the more you post the "higher" your status gets. More posts don't make your knowledge better, necessarily. Listen to what the moderators and administrators say above all, and of course to those who have owned herps for many years. I've own LOTS of animals in my life but that doesn't make me a dog, cat, rat, or fish expert. Apologies to anyone who may get offended, but it's ridiculous that no matter what forum I go on, there are always those who repeat what's already been said a dozen times, and it makes the poster feel inadequate. If one person already said "your tank is probably too big" can't we not say it 12 more times?

Ball pythons don't need added lights. The light from your windows is fine.
Ball pythons will climb around. Just don't let them climb too high, because they may fall.

yea i thought about the tank size when i brought the baby home, would a tank divider do the trick? idk how it can be much different. Also i dont get my having a smaller tank is superior to having more variety with more hides, more things to climb on, and everything else. and about the b-p's falling, i know it haha they always try to scale the walls and fall over, it can't hurt much though. And the vines only go about half the height of my 110

We all stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

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Originally Posted by Faber

Also, i fed him a frozen fuzzy.

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Aside from the husbandry issues which are one of the major factor when it comes to stress you might also want to address feeding.

Fuzzies and I assume mice fuzzies (correct?) are way to small for a BP most hatchling are started on hoppers and quickly move to adult mice.

The reason I am addressing that point is that underfeeding your snake is an other factor that can explain his behavior in addition to the rest.

Here is some good reading and a good place to start working on your issue.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/modules/...warticle&id=59

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=56846

I don't think you all see the point. By putting your BABY BP's in a gigantic enclosure, you are not doing what is best for them. You might think that your temps and humidity are fine and you are offering enough hiding spots but trust me, you aren't. People don't reccommend housing in large enclosures because BPs have very specific humidity and temp requirements. These requirements are EXTREMELY difficult to keep correct in a large enclosure. 2 UTHs and a heat lamp will not cut it. Faber, you will find in the winter months that that enclosure will be impossible to keep warm. Remember you can't just keep part of it warm you have to keep the WHOLE THING warm. That is a lot of space. A lot more than the snake will ever use.


Also, keep in mind the HEIGHT of these tanks. They are usually well over 12". I would say that a height of 12" is the MAX for a BP. I keep mine in tubs that are 5 3/4" tall. They thrive. If given the option to climb as babies, they most likely will do so but once they start getting heavier, they will almost never leave their hides. Thats how ball pythons are. That is their nature, you can't fight it. They don't need the extra space and you shouldn't torture yourself by giving them the extra space. It just means way more time and money that is not necessary.

k2l3d4, I know you are a new owner and I know you aren't new to herps but please listen to the advice given on here. Look at the dimentions of a 55 gallon. 48 x 13 x 20.
This gives you 559 square inches on floor space.

Now a 30g long is 36 x 12 x 17 which gives you 432 square inches. This is the BIGGEST tank I would recommend for a ball python and the floor space is not that much smaller than your huge 55 gallon.

Just some food for thought.

I think that your snake will eventually calm down. I've had some nicknamed "the little devil" because they acted like yours, biting, hissing, etc..
Don't let the hissing bother you too badly. Alot of mine hiss and are fine after being picked up.
I think you can keep your snake in whatever enclosure that you want as long as all husbandry needs are met. I will say its easier to keep ambient temps and humidity regulated in a smaller enclosure.
I hope to see more posts from you. Let us know if you snake calms down, etc..

yea but if you look from my view of the spectrum, what am i going to do with this gift of having a 110 gallon, and if i put him back in the 20l idk what i even did with the screen for it and also idk if his huge bowl will fit in it, or his jungle gym ( http://www.petsmart.com/product/inde...ductId=2752733 ), and you're right, its a pain in the winter, but i have 5-6 months to worry about it getting cold, also the uth's only stuck once so to downgrade i would have to invest over $40.

oh yea and from the sounds of things i shouldn't try to handle my way out of this? I should wait about another month so he feeds better or something?

Just go get a new top for the cage from a pet store.

Wait till he gets real stressed and get sick with an RI.

Your going to spend alot more than 40 dollars to get him back to health.

When in all actuality, you could have just spent the money before hand to do it right to prevent the issue in the first place.

You did take this animal in as a rescue, and a lot of people commend you for that.

But he's YOUR responsibility now, and you NEED to do what is best for him from now on. It's people that cut corners whose animals end up needing rescued most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Faber

yea but if you look from my view of the spectrum, what am i going to do with this gift of having a 110 gallon, and if i put him back in the 20l idk what i even did with the screen for it and also idk if his huge bowl will fit in it, or his jungle gym ( http://www.petsmart.com/product/inde...ductId=2752733 ), and you're right, its a pain in the winter, but i have 5-6 months to worry about it getting cold, also the uth's only stuck once so to downgrade i would have to invest over $40.

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How would he get an RI when i have the top covered, and having a 110 with multiple hides is just a large scale 20 with one or two hides. The only reason i can see downgrading is because it'll be tough to heat in the winter. I might put him in the twenty for a while to see how he reacts, but changing environments is like the most stressful thing so idk how much ense that makes. idk, when i had my old snake in a ten gallon he would just sit in his hide all day, and at night he would just go back n forth, and see the same over n over, atleast now in the 110 the snake can pick from a variety of hides, climbs, heat levels, and generalized humidity.

Also noone commented on the tank divider preposition, or if im trying to rush the handling.

Theres so many factors and things that can give your snake an RI. Also, as long as your animal is eating, you could try handling him once or twice a week for 5 minutes or so each time. Alot of times a LITTLE handling goes a long way.

I understand your mode of thinking. The thing is your not dealing with a mammal like said before. This is a REPTILE, and your choice of housing is likely the cause of the stress and aggression.

I would seriously try to consider some of the people on this forum's advice. Some of us have more than 20 or 30 years of experience with these animals.

I am CERTAINLY not trying to be mean, I don't think anyone else tries to be either.

We are ALL just so passionate about these animals, we try to fix what we can when we can.

We want your animal to be as healthy as possible, and for your interactions with it to be as enjoyable as possible, for you, and your animal.

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Originally Posted by Faber

How would he get an RI when i have the top covered, and having a 110 with multiple hides is just a large scale 20 with one or two hides. The only reason i can see downgrading is because it'll be tough to heat in the winter. I might put him in the twenty for a while to see how he reacts, but changing environments is like the most stressful thing so idk how much ense that makes. idk, when i had my old snake in a ten gallon he would just sit in his hide all day, and at night he would just go back n forth, and see the same over n over, atleast now in the 110 the snake can pick from a variety of hides, climbs, heat levels, and generalized humidity.

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You did take this animal in as a rescue, and a lot of people commend you for that.


...i got it from petco, so i recued it from a bad store?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Faber

How would he get an RI when i have the top covered, and having a 110 with multiple hides is just a large scale 20 with one or two hides. The only reason i can see downgrading is because it'll be tough to heat in the winter. I might put him in the twenty for a while to see how he reacts, but changing environments is like the most stressful thing so idk how much ense that makes. idk, when i had my old snake in a ten gallon he would just sit in his hide all day, and at night he would just go back n forth, and see the same over n over, atleast now in the 110 the snake can pick from a variety of hides, climbs, heat levels, and generalized humidity.

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A hiding snake is a happy snake. Cruising around and climbing on things is a sign of STRESS which is why your snake is aggressive.

Changing environments is stressful but after a week, they should be settled in and will be happier in the long run.

Your snake can get sick if the temps are too low (which I am sure they are in something so huge). Having the top covered doesn't help.

If you are worried about spending too much money then maybe you have made a mistake. With any animal comes a responsibility to be able to provide for it. This means having extra money for food, vet bills and if needed, new equipment.

I think dividing the tank might be a good option. You could try that. I wouldn't start handling regularly until the snake is eating on a steady schedule.

like i said ill consider it, but a 110 gallon isnt something you put under your arm to move around, and you wouldn't even suggest it as the snake grows? i just dont understand the difference between a small tank with 1-2 hides or a big tank with 5-6 hides.

i know that being overactive is a stress indicator, because as soon as you let them out of there shipping containers they take off, but the bottom part of that is what i needed, well not the part about making a bad choice, because i know i can handle it, its not spending money i care about, its wasting money. Also the temps are fine. like i said before its summer, i cant really mess up the temperatures if i tried.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Faber

like i said ill consider it, but a 110 gallon isnt something you put under your arm to move around, and you wouldn't even suggest it as the snake grows? i just dont understand the difference between a small tank with 1-2 hides or a big tank with 5-6 hides.

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The difference is they like small enclosed spaces. A 110g (even with multiple hides/vines/branches/leaves) isn't as small and enclosed as a 20-30g.

Even full grown adults are kept in 30g enclosures.

My apologies on that comment, I got your thread confused with another thread that has been created recently. To add, no, the general census is that most chain pet stores don't take real good care of they're animals.

My other info still applies in my reply.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Faber

You did take this animal in as a rescue, and a lot of people commend you for that.


...i got it from petco, so i recued it from a bad store?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by justind

I don't think that has to do with the amount of space. More likely it's because a ball python living in Africa has never seen a human and is certainly not handled everyday by one, that and they have to deal with parasites and predators.

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Exactly, so comparing your snake to one in africa is not a good comparison;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Faber

like i said ill consider it, but a 110 gallon isnt something you put under your arm to move around, and you wouldn't even suggest it as the snake grows? i just don't understand the difference between a small tank with 1-2 hides or a big tank with 5-6 hides.

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The difference is being able to maintain a healthy environment. You will need a thermometer with a probe for each hide and measure the ambient temperature at 3 or 4 points in the enclosure. Then you need to provide a temp gradient from 93* to 83*. This means multiple UTHs. You would probably need to cover the bottom with them if you wanted to avoid humidity sucking lamps. And all of these heat sources MUST be controlled with a thermostat or else you could cook your snake.

That is difficult, expensive, and you don't need to do all that work for one snake. You will find yourself spending much more than $40 to make a 110g work as a suitable environment for your snake.

Let's not let this thread go where some of the latest ones have gone, way off course.

There's no need to argue in instances like this.

I want to welcome you to the forum, and hope that your animal thrives in your care. I also hope you find this forum to be a good one with caring, passionate people.

Trevor

Hi,

If you can get the temps and humiditry right then you can certainly try it - it's just a bit trickier with larger glass tanks is all.

Usually it involves covering one side and both ends and then putting insualating material on the outside of that and treating the screen lid with tinfoil to hold in humidity.

But at the end of the day it is all going to circle back around to how secure your individual snake feels in the enclosure.

We are guessing it isn't happy at the moment from the description of its behaviour you are giving us - and we are suggesting the easiest practical steps we can think of to fix that as best we can.

It is possible you can tweak your 110g tank to make it a great place for the lil guy - or you could spend weeks and a buttload of cash to find out he still doesn't feel secure.

It's just that we know it will be a lot cheaper and easier to do it in the smaller tank.

There are, as has been stated on here many times, a lot of different ways to keep these snakes.

As a forum we tend to recommend a good basic one that can be achieved cheaply and will work in most cases.

Once you get to know your little guy better and be able to read his actions then you can try something a little less orthodox and see how he takes to it.

And of course, if he is already settled and used to you there is no reason why you couldn't try him in the 110g farther down the road and see if he copes better.


dr del

Dr.Del dude you're a genius. I'm glad you can pinpoint facts instead of reflecting your opinions on me. I'm thinking i might replace the 110 with a 20L in the colder months, and keep it like it is in the summer, it gives a better temperature range, its like havin a 55g hot spot and a 55g cold spot.(which im sure is too big) and my main concern is that i would have to go back out and buy more uth's and i would need a place to store my 110. Also im probably going to buy a couple more smaller hides for him. Dr.Del whats you opinion on handling? Should i wait a few more weeks when he's been fed multiple times, or should i just handle my way through the agression?

Faber, I think it is best to listen to everyone.

A 110gal aquarium isn't suggested for housing an adult(5 foot) ball python. A floor size of 36 inches by 18 inches is suggested for adult(big) ball pythons in many books and care sheets.

Kaorte(one of the other users replying to this thread) has replied to this thread many times because she cares about the well being of your snake as we all do.

For a small/baby ball python, I think you are definately on the wrong track.

On the other hand, the 110 gallon tank makes an excellent display tank. I plan on having similar displays for my boas when they get bigger.

Yea im listening to all of you guys for sure, and Kaorte included. This is going to upset alot of people but whatever happened to general adaptation? If most of the things is right (temos, humidity, hides) then why is tank size such a big deal?

Mine sometimes hisses at me when im trying to pick it up and its also in the striking position but as soon as i pick it up it calms down...

Its not a big deal, but the temps and hides and humidity is what is hard to maintain.

Faber, after all of this I would really like to know more details about your setup. What are you using to measure the temps and humidity? What kind of thermometers? What kind of hygrometers? What kind of thermostat are you using? What kind of hides are you using and how many exactly do you have? Do you have any fake plants in the enclosure? What kind of tank top do you have? Is it a full screen top?

Since you really want to keep this 110g, why don't you allow us to help you make it an ideal enclosure for your baby?

Im going to try to get more pictures up but my blackberry is actin up

Hey i just wanted to let you all know that i just held my baby for about 2-3 minutes and he was balled up, there was only one instance when he was fiesty but it was my fault cause i moved my hand infront of him working ym way under, but he's definatly getting better!, im still working on my tank now cause you guys got me all worried im neglectin to poor guy, but i just wanted to let you know were making progress, this time he balled up in my hand, i only held him for about three minutes though because he was gettin a little anxious.

Cool sounds like some progress... my little guy has only balled up on me once and when he did I put my other hand over top of him to give him a "hide" in my hands and he relaxed when I did that. In all effects he was completely cupped by my hands. Might work for you too.

Hi, I had my first Ball Python in a 120 gallon tank and found that it seemed stressed, bad eating and shedding problems. I put her in a rack and she rarely misses a meal and sheds great.
As for hissing alot of mine hiss at me, but as soon as they are out of there tub they settle down.

To all you new bees out there reading this thread....

There are clearly two sides here.

Please notice who in this debate is saying "110 gallon tanks are fine".... Look at how long they have been members and look at how many posts they have.

Now look at the people on the other side who are basically saying 110 gallon tanks are WAY to big, and that a 30 gallon long is the biggest that is needed for even the biggest female. Look at how long they have been members, and look at how many posts they have.

Does it mean that someone who has been around here for a while and has thousands of posts are the only ones that can be right? No. However, my personal choice when learning the hobby was to really follow the advice from those that had been around for a while... while at the same time taking note of what the newbees had to say.

Here is my opinion on the tank size thing. Anytime anyone spends a lot of money on a big tank, it is very difficult to admit to themselves and others that they have made a mistake. It is human nature in this kind of situation to defend the decision... and to try to prove that it is the right tank.

If you want a snake that will do well in a 110 gallon tank, find another species.

Oh yeah, and the idea of regularly moving the BP from one enclosure to the other depending on the weather is in my opinion a bad idea to put it nicely.