Why We Are Idiots For Using Kingsnake.com To Price Our Animals

The price is dropping for sure, I saw an ADULT male spider ball at a show for only $200 and there were also baby spiders at other booths selling for $400+. I was shocked...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ctrlfreq

I'm personally of the opinion that the market has never been as big as we hopefully assume it to be. While I'm sure the state of the economy is having some impact, I think the primary driver is the fact that the supply is already vastly outpacing the demand except in the arena of multiple-morph designer animals (which is what those who make their living on these animals concentrate on).

---

Keep in mind, though, that those multiple gene carrying animals are on the same road to the bottom as any other of their predecessors, basically a breeder-to-lesser-breeder type of buying and selling until the price is low enough that non-breeders will buy it. I don't think that this model is sustainable (at least for someone with a building mortgage or kids to put through college) and you can really only throw so many genes into an animal or create only so many combinations that are marketable enough for those kinds of high initial selling prices.

We're seeing the industry develop, and like any other, breeders need to adapt or go out of business. I believe that the long term sustainable product in the market will sell for under $1000 max, similar to a lot of high end birds, fish, or other niche markets. You should see what people pay for some species of saltwater fish and corals - I believe that there are plenty of snake people out there that are just as crazy about their animals as the reef tank guys are. If you think feeding a collection of ball pythons is a money pit - go set up a 75 gallon reef.

To me, the only people I really see complaining about this are the so called "hobbyist" breeders in their basements that think they could put X dollars in and pull XXX dollars out in a couple of years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ctrlfreq

I'm personally of the opinion that the market has never been as big as we hopefully assume it to be. While I'm sure the state of the economy is having some impact, I think the primary driver is the fact that the supply is already vastly outpacing the demand except in the arena of multiple-morph designer animals (which is what those who make their living on these animals concentrate on).

---

I think that quite a bit more demand could be generated. In my area pet stores have normal BPs, and maybe pastels. Many potential snake buyers probably don't even know that most morphs exist. Get things like Bumblebees and BELs into the pet shops, and demand should exceed supply pretty quickly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeffFlanagan

I think that quite a bit more demand could be generated. In my area pet stores have normal BPs, and maybe pastels. Many potential snake buyers probably don't even know that most morphs exist. Get things like Bumblebees and BELs into the pet shops, and demand should exceed supply pretty quickly.

---

How much do you think that the average pet store patron, unaware of the morph craze, would be willing to pay for a bumblebee or a BEL?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

How much do you think that the average pet store patron, unaware of the morph craze, would be willing to pay for a bumblebee or a BEL?

---

Not the $1K+ prices we're used to, but I expect you could move a lot of them at $500, while making a nice profit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeffFlanagan

Not the $1K+ prices we're used to, but I expect you could move a lot of them at $500, while making a nice profit.

---

Agree 100%.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeffFlanagan

Not the $1K+ prices we're used to, but I expect you could move a lot of them at $500, while making a nice profit.

---

Of course this means the pet stores are buying for $250.00.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeffFlanagan

Not the $1K+ prices we're used to, but I expect you could move a lot of them at $500, while making a nice profit.

---

When normals are selling at $50 or less, and other herps are as cheap as $10 or $15?

Pet stores are the worst place for morphs to compete, price wise.

Getting back to Colin's original point which is this industry/hobby uses Kingsnake as a reference of what a certain herp is worth and that is probably not in its best interest. As a just mentioned, the fact that it is a hobby as well as a business, and a niche one at that, it is not going to behave like other markets but obviously is greatly affected by the economic climate.

I like the idea of a reference site for current pricing and value, the only problem is if it isnt popular, properly endorsed or used much, its just a blog on BP prices and wont do much.

I think having some type of organized body that tracks all the genetics and is endorsed by the heads of the industry would be the first step in setting any guideline. Dog breeders have their groups and I grow orchids which also have a centralized organization which tracks hybrids and variations giving credit to those who produced them and setting names and identification markers. This entity could set standards of quality and excellence thus setting a precedent of value to those who appreciate the animals. This could help set a price value from guidelines and genetics/bloodlines and not the Kingsnake get rich quick mentality which currently dominates the majority of reptile pricing.

One always needs to remember that pricing also has to do with the quality of the specimen. A dirty brown pastel is never going to get the price of a clean screamer pastel, so when comparing prices you have to know what to look for other than $ figures.


Unfortunately this hobby is plauged with fueds and ugly $ competition so getting a centralized body organized may not be as easy as it sounds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

Are you selling animals or raising children?

---

Both actually.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

A bunch of you talk about not breeding for the money but for the love of your snakes and seeing them do what they do. If you are not lying through your pants, then what, if ANYTHING, you get for your babies is irrelevant and you should politely excuse yourself from any conversation regarding prices since they don't matter to you. If you don't care about the money, why does it matter what they sell for?

I think is sucks that my many generations of work calkings are sold so cheaply by so many, but such is life. I'm not real fond of the fact that I help cheap FWC breeders sell but I'm not a discount house, and, such is life.

If you can't handle the ups and down down downs of this market, perhaps stamps or coins would be of more interest and less stress. Give it consideration.

---

Actually many of those who complain about prices dropping drastically on high end BP morphs do care about the animals. We don't want to see them end up like so many normal BP's and the calkings you mentioned passed impulsively from home to home via craigslist or ending up in shelters. Yes, prices should drop as supply catches up with demand, but BP morphs drop drastically in price long before supply comes even close to demand. The dropoffs we see are simply caused by people aiming to low. The motivation for this is purely for a quick sale. If people were chomping at the bit to pay $2000 for a hot new morph last year, why wouln't they one season later? I am not foolish enough to think that I can stop this from happening, I just felt like putting in my 2 cents, and I thank you for yours. I'm must say I'm not sure what coin or stamp collecting has to do with any of this, perhaps you are an avid collector and thus can recommend it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by herpenthusiast

Actually many of those who complain about prices dropping drastically on high end BP morphs do care about the animals. We don't want to see them end up like so many normal BP's and the calkings you mentioned passed impulsively from home to home via craigslist or ending up in shelters. Yes, prices should drop as supply catches up with demand, but BP morphs drop drastically in price long before supply comes even close to demand. The dropoffs we see are simply caused by people aiming to low. The motivation for this is purely for a quick sale. If people were chomping at the bit to pay $2000 for a hot new morph last year, why wouln't they one season later? I am not foolish enough to think that I can stop this from happening, I just felt like putting in my 2 cents, and I thank you for yours. I'm must say I'm not sure what coin or stamp collecting has to do with any of this, perhaps you are an avid collector and thus can recommend it?

---

Perhaps. But surely someone with such a fine way with words as you yourself have shown, a shining example to all in putting thoughts on paper as it were, would only say such to one such as I, merely a shadow compared to some, most if you must know, in jest.

So, I thank you heartily for the chuckle, or was that the second one, hmmmm, but I must decline your invitation.

LOL, good one. How's that for writing prowess(I refer to the LOL)?

Why would breeders that supposedly "love" these snakes want to price them so high as to keep them out of the small collectors collections. I believe that people will not pay 2000 dollars for a pinstripe and that is why they are priced where they are. Give me a list of 2000 people that would pay that. I believe you are just upset that you overpaid for a codom and will never make your money back.

I am not a fool. I understand how things work in the BP world and have bought all my codoms when they were priced low. That doesn't mean I have to like the way things work. I would have gladly saved up and paid more for a snake if they would hold thier value. I am a blue collar guy. My collection would be smaller, but probably have a better chance of at least being self supporting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

I like the idea of a reference site for current pricing and value, the only problem is if it isnt popular, properly endorsed or used much, its just a blog on BP prices and wont do much.

---

This is correct, of course. Colin Weaver starting a blog that says how much an animal is worth is just as useless as using kingsnake.com to decide prices. And who am I to decide how much an animal is worth? My intent is not to make something alone. I don't carry any particular majesty in this industry. I plan on getting buy-in and participation from large breeders, medium sized-breeders and smaller breeders. A diverse cross-section needs to be represented in order for a price-tracking site to have credibility.

Multiple factors will have to be accounted for, or course. Size, gender, quality, etc. All of that will be worked out and addressed in the end. Raul, PM (colin@ballpythonbreeder.com) me if you'd like to be involved in the process of figuring it all out. Your BP.net profile suggests that you would have a lot to offer. Other people like Heather Wong, a small but passionate and intelligent breeder out in California is also on my list of people who I want to help (Heather, this is me asking you, by the way).

I'm not trying to fix prices. I'm trying to stabilize their decline; because decline they always will. The ball python market is an open market and anybody will be able to do whatever they decide to do when it comes to price. www.reptitrack.com's intent is to help people know what something is worth before labeling it at a show or posting it on-line. That's it. The ball python industry alone is a multi-billion industry and pricing on a whim just seems so silly. Because I love ball pythons and breeding them I want to help produce an environment where I can afford to do it for the rest of my life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mdjudson

Why would breeders that supposedly "love" these snakes want to price them so high as to keep them out of the small collectors collections. I believe that people will not pay 2000 dollars for a pinstripe and that is why they are priced where they are. Give me a list of 2000 people that would pay that. I believe you are just upset that you overpaid for a codom and will never make your money back.

---

People who believe that all morphs should cost the same and that it's unfair for breeders to charge a lot for a particular morph are living in some sort of bizzaro-world. Your carry about as much credibility with me as a politician saying that their needs to be an equalization of wealth in our country; that everybody should make the same amount of money. How absurd a notion; pinstripes, bumble bees, lemon blasts, silver streaks and panda pieds are all $50. That makes it fair; everybody can have one. If you believe this I never want to hear from you again. You have no credibility with me and your mental processes are incapable of producing anything helpful in a conversation of this type. Everything you say is immediately discarded. Bye-bye.

Sooo... can i ask the purpose of this particular thread gentlemen? I posted a comment last night and I think that it was taken a bit out of context and every post that I have read today has been negative and/or aggressive. If we are not gaining something productive here then why continue to waste our time?

:snake:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobsean

Sooo... can i ask the purpose of this particular thread gentlemen? I posted a comment last night and I think that it was taken a bit out of context and every post that I have read today has been negative and/or aggressive. If we are not gaining something productive here then why continue to waste our time?

---

What in the world are you talking about?! This is one of the better discussions lately. Who are you again???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Beast

Interesting read,

When do you expect this new site will be up Colin?

---

I'm a busy guy just like every other person on the planet. The initiative is not a one-man show and I am working with some very respected names in the business to get things going. I'll avoid name dropping for the time being.

I'd like to see something moving before the storm of the '09 babies hit the market. I know some are popping their heads out now but it won't be ready for them.

Well, it's a heck of an undertaking and I hope you much success.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

I'm confused.

Some of you seem concerned that prices are too high.

Yet others seem concerned that prices are too low.

Perhaps the motivation behind our/your deep concerns should be brought out and examined.

Is it money, profit, getting mine because I've done the work, that is the motivation here or is it get back at some assclowns, or is it purely philanthropic?

Motivations matter.

---

For a lot of people, it's probably a lot of the above. I'm saying that about prices dropping too low, too fast, not prices being too high. I've always been into snakes, and I wanted an albino ball from the second I saw one in Reptiles magazine. I wasn't upset that the prices were way too high for me. That might have even added a little to my coveting. I waited patiently until I could afford a pair of hets, then in '06 I closed my money market savings and bought a a male albino and a couple of normal females. I knew that being a recessive mutation that had held it's value well for over a decade, I would get to finally own the goal possession of my childhood, and by breeding it, I would be able to make the same return that I would have if I left my savings in place.

I think that story illustrates a common theme or scenario for hobbyists that really love the animals. Breeding to break even or even turn a small profit is the only way we can afford to get into the hobby in the first place.

I will be hatching my first hets this season, and since my female het is a stubborn feeder, I won't be hatching my first albino until 2010. That's four years of raising up five snakes, standard fecal floats, not to mention the $2k original investment. So am I in it for the love of the animals, or am I in it for the money?

And what about the breeders who are the first to import a project? Some spend $100k to import a couple of projects, with one of them proving to be a cool looking, $50,000 normal, or a $60,000 yellow belly. Then people complain when the project that worked out costs $25k to buy into, and when you can't buy into it for under $1,000 a few years later. Do we have no appreciation for the people who take such huge financial risks to introduce new mutations for the rest of us to be able to one day work with? There are plenty of snakes out there for people who only want to spend $100. We shouldn't be an any hurry to bring the prices into their affordable range as quickly as we do. If they really love an animal, they will either wait a decade, or save every penny to get their hands on one. Because like me, a lot of them will want to breed it to try and make some of that money back. So when we see all these expensive morphs dropping under $1k, that's when every kid and his mom buy them up to breed, and the next year is the end of that market completely, through these guys breeding the hell out of them to their female craigslist rescues and dropping the prices to $90 so they can sell out in two weeks, because they don't have the space or the budget to take care of the snakes they have, much less 12-18 babies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ColinWeaver

I'm not trying to fix prices. I'm trying to stabilize their decline; because decline they always will. The ball python market is an open market and anybody will be able to do whatever they decide to do when it comes to price. www.reptitrack.com's intent is to help people know what something is worth before labeling it at a show or posting it on-line. That's it. The ball python industry alone is a multi-billion industry and pricing on a whim just seems so silly. Because I love ball pythons and breeding them I want to help produce an environment where I can afford to do it for the rest of my life.

---

Bravo, can't wait to see the site up and running at full force.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PythonWallace

And what about the breeders who are the first to import a project? Some spend $100k to import a couple of projects, with one of them proving to be a cool looking, $50,000 normal, or a $60,000 yellow belly. Then people complain when the project that worked out costs $25k to buy into, and when you can't buy into it for under $1,000 a few years later. Do we have no appreciation for the people who take such huge financial risks to introduce new mutations for the rest of us to be able to one day work with? There are plenty of snakes out there for people who only want to spend $100. We shouldn't be an any hurry to bring the prices into their affordable range as quickly as we do. If they really love an animal, they will either wait a decade, or save every penny to get their hands on one. Because like me, a lot of them will want to breed it to try and make some of that money back. So when we see all these expensive morphs dropping under $1k, that's when every kid and his mom buy them up to breed, and the next year is the end of that market completely, through these guys breeding the hell out of them to their female craigslist rescues and dropping the prices to $90 so they can sell out in two weeks, because they don't have the space or the budget to take care of the snakes they have, much less 12-18 babies.

---

That's the same thought I had.

And although there are more morphs on the market today has demand really dropped that much to justify a 50-80% drop in the price asked for morphs? I don't think so. I would have paid thousands for a particular morph years ago and, I would pay the same price today if that's what they are selling for.

I would support Colin's website and agree that there should be some sort of guideline. I personally don't breed my animals for a living but I don't find anything wrong with doing it and I think these businesses deserve some protection on their investments.

where this is hurting me,is last year,i bought my first morph,a 300gram blonde pastel male for 250,now my brother,and a friend of ours,is all in a breeding group,which means anything we sell,,gets cut in 3rds,and when now,,just ONE season later,i am looking at blonde pastels going for 100 or less for males,and last season i paid 250,wtf is that?,these prices are declining WAY to fast.i would love tot urn this into a large pet shop/show room/tourist stop in and hang out place eventually,but how is that going to happen,selling all morphs,for in a couple years,under 500 for everything at this rate.at this rate guys,in 3 years we will have to PAY people at shows,to take our normals home,as out pastel lines witll be 35 dollars for males,we are raising up a het pied male,and 50% girls,we are looking at another 12 months as the earliest of producing a pied,by the time we get ours we are holding back,the first one we sll to the public,will be the price of a 400 het female hatchling now.ALL of this started with Morph King a few years ago,,and see whats happening now?,i would of GLADLY paid 500 for my pastel male,if that was the going price.but in just one season,to see the price i paid cut in half,het pied males for 50 now,that means 50% het's have to be around 30,which means normal males already have to be around 20 or so,how much lower can we possibly go?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RebelYell83

where this is hurting me,is last year,i bought my first morph,a 300gram blonde pastel male for 250,now my brother,and a friend of ours,is all in a breeding group,which means anything we sell,,gets cut in 3rds,and when now,,just ONE season later,i am looking at blonde pastels going for 100 or less for males,and last season i paid 250,wtf is that?,these prices are declining WAY to fast.i would love tot urn this into a large pet shop/show room/tourist stop in and hang out place eventually,but how is that going to happen,selling all morphs,for in a couple years,under 500 for everything at this rate.at this rate guys,in 3 years we will have to PAY people at shows,to take our normals home,as out pastel lines witll be 35 dollars for males,we are raising up a het pied male,and 50% girls,we are looking at another 12 months as the earliest of producing a pied,by the time we get ours we are holding back,the first one we sll to the public,will be the price of a 400 het female hatchling now.ALL of this started with Morph King a few years ago,,and see whats happening now?,i would of GLADLY paid 500 for my pastel male,if that was the going price.but in just one season,to see the price i paid cut in half,het pied males for 50 now,that means 50% het's have to be around 30,which means normal males already have to be around 20 or so,how much lower can we possibly go?

---

So you started a 3 way investment breeding group and spent $250 on a pastel? Where did you get your females to breed him to, and for how much?

You obviously saw that pastel prices had dropped in half every year for several years before you made your "investment". What did you expect to happen?

If you only had $250 to spend on an investment, maybe you should have thought about a species and morph that lays more than 6 eggs a year, and one that has held it's value better than the ball python morphs have been once they are cheap enough to get into the hands of investors like you and your friends. Do you think that you and your friends are the only ones who made plans to get rich breeding "expensive ball morphs" once they drop down into the <$800 price range? Everyone and their mom's want in. With everyone and their mom breding the cheaper morphs, the market gets flooded with thousands of cheaper, crappier looking morphs, and it's over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RebelYell83

where this is hurting me,is last year,i bought my first morph,a 300gram blonde pastel male for 250,now my brother,and a friend of ours,is all in a breeding group,which means anything we sell,,gets cut in 3rds,and when now,,just ONE season later,i am looking at blonde pastels going for 100 or less for males,and last season i paid 250,wtf is that?,these prices are declining WAY to fast.i would love tot urn this into a large pet shop/show room/tourist stop in and hang out place eventually,but how is that going to happen,selling all morphs,for in a couple years,under 500 for everything at this rate.at this rate guys,in 3 years we will have to PAY people at shows,to take our normals home,as out pastel lines witll be 35 dollars for males,we are raising up a het pied male,and 50% girls,we are looking at another 12 months as the earliest of producing a pied,by the time we get ours we are holding back,the first one we sll to the public,will be the price of a 400 het female hatchling now.ALL of this started with Morph King a few years ago,,and see whats happening now?,i would of GLADLY paid 500 for my pastel male,if that was the going price.but in just one season,to see the price i paid cut in half,het pied males for 50 now,that means 50% het's have to be around 30,which means normal males already have to be around 20 or so,how much lower can we possibly go?

---

Sounds like you didn't do enough research. Pastel prices have been dropping rapidly for quite a while.

I don't think you'll be breeding any females at 12 months either, if that's what you were implying above, it was sort of hard to understand. I believe that het pied females are still in the 400.00 range so you may want to take that into consideration. Why get a het male and have a chance at pieds when you can get a pied for a grand?

I'm thinking you and your partners should do a little more research before you do any more investing. Getting in on the bottom of something, which is were pastels are pricewise, is not generally going to bring a huge return profitwise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RebelYell83

where this is hurting me,is last year,i bought my first morph,a 300gram blonde pastel male for 250,now my brother,and a friend of ours,is all in a breeding group,which means anything we sell,,gets cut in 3rds,and when now,,just ONE season later,i am looking at blonde pastels going for 100 or less for males,and last season i paid 250,wtf is that?,these prices are declining WAY to fast.i would love tot urn this into a large pet shop/show room/tourist stop in and hang out place eventually,but how is that going to happen,selling all morphs,for in a couple years,under 500 for everything at this rate.at this rate guys,in 3 years we will have to PAY people at shows,to take our normals home,as out pastel lines witll be 35 dollars for males,we are raising up a het pied male,and 50% girls,we are looking at another 12 months as the earliest of producing a pied,by the time we get ours we are holding back,the first one we sll to the public,will be the price of a 400 het female hatchling now.ALL of this started with Morph King a few years ago,,and see whats happening now?,i would of GLADLY paid 500 for my pastel male,if that was the going price.but in just one season,to see the price i paid cut in half,het pied males for 50 now,that means 50% het's have to be around 30,which means normal males already have to be around 20 or so,how much lower can we possibly go?

---

This right here is the way of thinking that is so dangerous to prices. You don't HAVE to price your animals lower than the other guys. Price them at what you think they're worth. If you pick your pairings carefully and produce quality offspring, price them HIGHER than the average pastel on the market. I can tell you right now I won't be selling ANY of the male pastels I produce this season for $100. I'll keep them myself before I do that. $20 for normals? Again, I'll keep them myself before I sell them at that price. Petsmart sells normals for $80 each, why can't you?

most of what we have in the group is hets for visuals,as none of us have a lot to drop on any animal,so,seeing as how reccesives hold value better,seemed like the smarter route in the long run.I could be wrong,we'll find out in time.this season coming up,we will be producing lessers,YB,mojaves,orange ghosts,pastels,and possibly spiders and cinnies,so we are getting there,need to start somewhere,so figured why not the pastel,actual break down of how it is,is we each buy for our own collections,then we worry about the breeding,Wil,will be 12 months before the poss het girls we picked up,will be ready to breed,,as they are nowhere,nor will they be anywhere near 1500 grams at 12months of age:),and when dealing with 3 guys,who can barely scrape by to pay bills,,went with hets as it is,,,cheaper?,and,wed liek to hatch our own pied for the breeding,,kinda get the satisfaction of it,if that makes any sense.Wallace,yeah i see what your saying,,i just think the prices,are dropping to fast,i know they are still finding stuff to import,the next new morph,so there will always be something high end,but that will run out eventually,and i am already hearing big breeders talking about pastels in pet stores for 100 within 2-3 more years,and albinos in pet stores for less then 300 in that same time frame,but then kevin and brain was on reptile radio talking about albinos will never drop much below 500,and pieds under 1 grand,,so which do you guys see it being?

oh,and Wallace,,ball's wont be the only species i do,i will also be doing bloods,brown and black bloods to be xact,as well as some boas and anacondas,but just starting with balls

Almost every pet is a 'pyramid scheme' if you buy them early to breed.
A new morph comes out, and the initial breeders of it get TOP dollar. Then the second tier buys some to breed, and they get GOOD money. Eventually the market is flooded with the morph, and everyone that was willing to pay the TOP dollar, already has them, and the price goes down.
If you look, almost EVERY market is the same way. Fruit that is new and unusual is high priced, until more farms can get plants to produce it, and it becomes more widely available, and the price goes down.
New technology? Remember how much a iPod was? And when other companies came out with cheaper lookalikes that work just as good, the price was lower. ALL markets pretty much work the same. Supply and demand. The ball market is no different.

And how is this new site supposed to be any different than checking Kingsnake? Looking at prices on Kingsnake is really no different than calling around to a ton of different breeders to ask "How much for a pied?" You get a bunch of replies from different sellers... which is what you see on Kingsnake. A bunch of sellers with the prices.

Kingsnake is just a online reptile show. It's always open, and you can find good deals, and high prices.. depending on where you look.

If you get into morphs thinking you'll make tons of money right away, you'll probably be disappointed. Price fixing is no answer. Each breeder is able to set the price they are happy with. Wes prices high, someone else prices low. Wes gets more money for less hatchlings, while the other gets less money for the same amount of hatchlings. Assuming that both take similar care of their animals... Wes gets a high amount of money.. but he puts in more work, because he has to care for the animals until they sell. The other doesn't have to work as hard, but he reaps less reward.

Every meal your snake eats is less profit when sold. It's the same as rats. Feeder rats sold at a young age make more money than Jumbos. You have to put out money to feed, and time to care for.. until they sell. The longer it takes to sell, the less profit you'll see. So some people price low, to sell fast. That's not really an issue to me.
Some people value the animals more, and so hold to a higher price. There's nothing wrong with waiting until the "cheap" animals are sold, and selling your animals at the higher price. You run a risk of the buyers all getting cheaper snakes, and now there's no one to buy your higher priced snakes. Most of the time, that's not going to be any real issue.

I price my hatchlings as to what *I* want to get for them. I tend to be at typical price or slightly higher. I have had to sell morphs for under market price due to emergencies, and regretted having to do so. Each time it was morphs that were breeder stock, not panic selling of hatchlings. I kept normals for quite some time before they finally sold.
My $0.02.

I've bought a pastel every year since '06 for the combo potential, and I would have been happier to pay more for them, and probably would have a few more if they weren't so cheap. That's the same reason I don't have more spiders and yellow bellies. I need the space for animals that won't end up costing me to give them away.

To say it again, the demand is there at the higher prices, and prices in this market are being lowered needlessly. Neil said it best when he said that he sells out every year with higher than market prices, as do plenty of breeders. That wouldn't be the case if the supply was too great for the demand. If 75% of breeders realized this fact, we could all raise the prices to what WE value them at, instead of what we are worried we need to price them at, keep the prices as steady as any other market, and still sell out every year. Period. I'm on board, and I really hope Collin's website helps other people realize that the products of their investments are worth a lot more than they are giving them credit for.

i am completely on board as well,,maybe we should start this up on here,before the eggs atart hatching,atleast a discussion on what SHOULD be the value of these animals,insttead of lowering them even more?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RebelYell83

i am completely on board as well,,maybe we should start this up on here,before the eggs atart hatching,atleast a discussion on what SHOULD be the value of these animals,insttead of lowering them even more?

---

Just do it. Price your animals at what you want for them after your investments and your work, and wait for them to sell. I don't think there is going to be a public federation here, although it would be cool if there was.

it would.actually be very cool,but then the people who need to pay attention to this,,,wont

Instead of trying to figure out how to enforce a price level(price fixing), breeders should endevour to price their animals at a fair to high price.
You can't make people sell at any certain price. I don't think anyone SHOULD be able to. That's why it's a 'free market'.

By the same coin... people are always bragging about what a great deal they got... "I got this bubble python for $40!!" instead of saying "That price is too low, and I'm not buying from that person."

Wait a second.... are you guys saying I can make money breeding ball pythons?!

Please keep in mind that this group is a very, very small segment of the world. Most people don't see the value in a morph that you do. They also have no idea of the cost involved in breeding. Most people have no intention of breeding.

The larger portion of the pet snake buying public wants a pretty snake for a certain price. You go above their set price and they walk.

And experience and reputation does matter. I would be willing to spend more if it's an established breeder vs. little Joey who just started.

I have spoken to a few breeders that sell their snakes at less than the market price. Their reasoning is that they have to move out what they will not use in their breeding program and charging a few dollars less allows them to move their inventory quickly. They said they make it up over the long run.

YMMV

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnNJ

Please keep in mind that this group is a very, very small segment of the world. Most people don't see the value in a morph that you do. They also have no idea of the cost involved in breeding. Most people have no intention of breeding.

The larger portion of the pet snake buying public wants a pretty snake for a certain price. You go above their set price and they walk.

And experience and reputation does matter. I would be willing to spend more if it's an established breeder vs. little Joey who just started.

I have spoken to a few breeders that sell their snakes at less than the market price. Their reasoning is that they have to move out what they will not use in their breeding program and charging a few dollars less allows them to move their inventory quickly. They said they make it up over the long run.

YMMV

---

Your post doesn't hold water. If the people you are talking about just wanting a pretty snake, and they don't know what kind of financial risk and hard work go into producing some of these morphs, that means we should drop the prices down for them? I don't know what goes into making a plasma t.v., and I just want a pretty picture to look at for cheap. But I don't see Sony dropping their prices down to $400 for me. But there are plenty of t.v.s out there I could get for the small busget I want to spend. And if this was truly that large of a percentage of the market place, yellow bellies, fires, sables, cinnies, axanthics, etc. wouldn't have been sold out every year to date at the higher prices. If they want a pretty morph from me, but only have $100 I'll send them to Wes for one of his cal kings. There are plenty of pretty snakes out there for the lower budget pet market.

And how do your breeder friends makeup the thousands of dollars they are throwing away by reducing their prices to below the already deflated market prices? By never buying rodents that are small enough for hatchlings, and not having enough rack space to keep them for longer than a few weeks after they hatch? Those are the only things I can think of that would make some of that lost money back, and it seems like a pretty crappy business plan when they are dealing with live animals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Your post doesn't hold water.

---

Of course it does.

Let's use your TV analogy. I may want a 52 inch plasma but am not willing to pay more than $x,xxx for it. That means I have to buy a lesser brand name or wait for a sale or both. Plasmas were selling in the tens of thousands of dollars at one point; now they're much more afforable.

I want another BP and I have an idea of the qualities I want to see in it. I also have a price point that I'm willing to go up to. For me, not being a breeder or even an avid collector, I can wait years for everything to align and get the snake I want. Some people can't wait, for whatever reason, or don't want to, so they'll have to pay what the market will bear now. There are many more willing to wait or that have to wait because of finances than impulse buyers with money to burn, especially in this economy.

My point is that, depending on who you are and what you have to offer, you may not get the price you think you should just because a few people got together and made up a "Suggested Retail Price" list.

As the seller you have the option to wait years to get your full price. Or you can take a few dollars less and move on. It's all up to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnNJ

Of course it does.

Let's use your TV analogy. I may want a 52 inch plasma but am not willing to pay more than $x,xxx for it. That means I have to buy a lesser brand name or wait for a sale or both. Plasmas were selling in the tens of thousands of dollars at one point; now they're much more afforable.

I want another BP and I have an idea of the qualities I want to see in it. I also have a price point that I'm willing to go up to. For me, not being a breeder or even an avid collector, I can wait years for everything to align and get the snake I want. Some people can't wait, for whatever reason, or don't want to, so they'll have to pay what the market will bear now. There are many more willing to wait or that have to wait because of finances than impulse buyers with money to burn, especially in this economy.

My point is that, depending on who you are and what you have to offer, you may not get the price you think you should just because a few people got together and made up a "Suggested Retail Price" list.

As the seller you have the option to wait years to get your full price. Or you can take a few dollars less and move on. It's all up to you.

---

It holds no water. Of course plasma t.v.s, and ball pythons are going to drop in price over the years. There's no disagreement there. That's what happens. The supply of ball python mutations increases every year with more breeders producing them, and the price goes down. No problems there. The technology for plasma t.v.s becomes less costly to produce them, the supply increases, the demand for the high end first generation models disappears, because that market has already bought their plasma, and the prices start to drop. No problems there.

Here is where your friends' theories don't hold water. This is important, and I wish more people had this understanding.

For argument's sake, let's say you have three breeder friends who's strategies are to under cut the market prices a little bit, so they can sell out quickly and try to make the difference back in other ways. Let's also use lessers as an example here. In 2008, friend #1 sees that the market price of a lesser is $1,000, so he goes on kingsnake and offers his for $900 each. Two weeks later, friend B hatches his lessers and goes on Kingsnake to see what lessers are selling for. He sees that this guy is selling lessers for $900, so he advertises his for $800, so people buy his before they buy from friend A. Friend C hatches some lessers a couple of weeks later and does the same thing. He wants to offer his a little lower so people will buy his first, and prices his at $750. By the end of the season, all three are advertising their remaining lessers at $700. In the mean time, every potential customer who has seen any of these ads are calling around trying to get breeders to price match all these other breeders selling lessers for hundreds less than the average breeder has his prices set at, and to try and be at least somewhat competative, the market prices now becomes $750.

Now, the backwards thought processes of these three breeders have now reduced the actual market price from $1,000 each to $750 each in one season, and of course the lessers hatched a full season later must be cheaper than the '08 closing prices, so the season kicks off with a market price of $600-$650 for a lesser. These guys, along with all the bargin hunters they sold to, start the process over, and the market prices crash further and faster.

So in reality, these guys are selling their lessers this year for $500, and counting $100 losses per animal, from the now $600 market price, when in reality they should be subtracting the $500 sale prices from the $800 a lesser would cost this season if they hadn't hacked up the market in the previous years. If they each sold 10 lessers a year fo '08 and '09, they would have each lost about $4,500k - $6k, just on the 2 seasons worth of lessers. Of course they don't have the mental capacity to see how detrimental their strategies are to themselves, much less the ball python market as a whole, so they mark it off as a few hundred dollars and figure they saved that in rodents and extra rack space. Instead of shooting themselves in the feet and bottoming out the market, they could have taken a fraction of that $5k or so they forfeited, and paid for some advertising, maybe filled up the gas tank and splurged on a table at a few shows, and taken out some google ads or something, then sold out quickly at market or above market prices, and had a few thousand dollars extra in their wallets. All the while, their names and companies are now out their being advertised, and the lesser market starts of in '09 at $800 for the rest of us.

That brings me to my final point. You said that if they don't under cut the market, they have to hold onto their animals for a couple extra years before they sell. If your friends are have been forced to "wait years to get full price", then there is no doubt that at least one of three things is going on with them.
1. They are producing ugly examples of the morphs they are working with.
2. They have bad customer service, or don't get back to potential customers quickly enough, causing potential customers to look elsewhere.
3. All the tons of people who are looking for the animals they are working with can't find your friends.

2008 was my first year breeding, and I sold out with zero paid advertising, practically zero free advertising, and with high end market pricing. I know plenty of other breeders, small to huge scale who do the same. I don't want anyone to be able to tell anyone else what they should charge for anything. It just really bothers me that this industry is filled with people who are too stupid to understand that the demand is there to sell out at market prices, and that by constantly under cutting market prices they are hurting themselves exponentially more with every year that passes, as well as the rest of the breeders who are smart enough to understand this simple idea. I know we can charge market prices, or even higher than market prices if we choose to, but we can't realistically charge what these animals are worth when there are so many idiots destroying the market in the never ending cycle I described above.

I don't know enough about the BP market to argue your point. Maybe the idiots you refer to would like to take a shot.

As I said, from a buyer's perspective, I can wait it out until I'm comfortable with the deal. The seller should be able to do the same, whatever that deal is.

Since you, and "plenty of other breeders", can command high end market prices and sell out without a problem, what exactly is the point of this thread? Set your prices where you feel comfortable.

Maybe we can do business someday. :gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnNJ

I don't know enough about the BP market to argue your point. Maybe the idiots you refer to would like to take a shot.

As I said, from a buyer's perspective, I can wait it out until I'm comfortable with the deal. The seller should be able to do the same, whatever that deal is.

Since you, and "plenty of other breeders", can command high end market prices and sell out without a problem, what exactly is the point of this thread? Set your prices where you feel comfortable.

Maybe we can do business someday. :gj:

---

Like I said, we can price our animals at what ever we want to, as we all should be able to do, but we can't realistically price our animals at the prices we should be getting when all the under cutters have rolled the market prices down to a small fraction of what they should be. If the lesser market prices are $600, we can maybe charge $800 and still make sales, but that doesn't change the fact that most of these breeders probably paid well over $2,000 for their breeding stock, and would be able to charge a par market price of $1,500 or so right now, and rightfully so, if the undercutters hadn't bottomed out the market over the last 2-3 years.

The under cutters are the ones setting the bar for pricing in this industry, for some ridiculous reason. Breeders who care about the well being and health of their animals, and who won't ship them out before putting on some weight and being sure that every hatchling is an established feeder that will thrive in the average customer's care are the ones who are taking it in the eye, as are the idiots who are collapsing the market, but I feel a little less sympathy for the latter.

Like I said in a previous post, I've bought pastels every year since '06. I only have 1.2, but paid $1,400 for them, knowing that the market would be about $100 by the time I hatched any. These are beautiful animals, as well as ingredients to some of the most amazing creatures on earth, and they will always be in high demand. There is no reason for them to be under $500, ever. I guarantee that every breeder would sell out of female pastels for the next 2-3 years if they were still $600 for females across the board.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by neilgolli

Below is a post that I made on this topic almost 2 years ago on Ralphs board.
Here is a link to the orginal thread

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/fo...74&whichpage=1

My post is made on page 5.



Posted - 06/27/2007 : 12:13:31 PM
This industry is different than most, joe blow cannot walk into best buy, purchase a few items and then next year be shooting tvs out their rear end. People are not prepared for the work or care thus need to move their product and are afraid they will never be able to sell their product next to the big boys so they must drop their prices, it takes a little intestinal fortitude to run any business and most people just don't have what it takes to actually be successful.

The other enormous problem is that people want to look at this as a business, want to make their money back but don't want to spend money to sell their product. No offense to KS but people who want to sell 10, 20, 50 ,100K worth of animals and only want to spend a $100 a year for their marketing budget on KS are the ones who complain the most about stagnant product who drop their prices because its not moving. Within weeks they'll drop their price $500 but would never think of dropping $500 on a banner, some business cards and a table at a show where they can display all of their product rather than just discounting a single animal to make it go away.

On the other hand the guys that do spend the money to go out and find new customers, often go about it terribly wrong. They have one bad show or don't sell anything at a tiny show and give up, feeling its pointless when in reality people want to buy from people they are comfortable with. They want to see your name on KS and other sites, they want to see you at a few shows know your going to be around and if your sitting behind your table with a stick up your butt, your arms crossed and frustrated who in their right mind would want to buy from you.

This business is literally what you make it. You want to wholesale your product you can, you want to make an extra $10,000 a year or literally a million a year, its entirely possible, but its a business, a new business and its a hell of a lot of work. There is absolutely no better way to make a living in my opinion than what we do however you have to fight for it and work damn hard.

I completely sell out every year without any trouble and do very little trading, I'm not afraid to hold onto my animals and dont care what others sell their stuff for, I get what they are worth to me. I sell some early and I sell a lot at the end of the season at 300 - 500 grams, by then many are out of stock, the whores have run out and come November I normally get the prices that in September people thought I was crazy for asking.

---

Excellent post Neil!

The drastic price drop is rediculous. Even considering the increase in supply there has never been a shortage of demand. Prices should naturally drop but not to such drastic degrees. When a market becomes saturated with a product then a dramatically lower price is expected. This is not the case with the ball pythons. I know of no breeders, large or small, that have a surplus of animals sitting around that they can not sell at a decent price. They sell every year, thus the demand is still there. Certain morphs have dropped dramatically; Yellow-bellies, pastels, pinstripes, etc. There is really no justification for the prices dropping from $1500 plus two to three years ago to $150-$300 today. These are key ingrediants in making some amazing animals and are building block mutations. They will always be in high demand. I know a several breeders that are happily keeping all female yellowbellies and pastels because they are not willing to part with them for the "current market price" of $150

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by toddmbecker1234

The drastic price drop is rediculous. Even considering the increase in supply there has never been a shortage of demand. Prices should naturally drop but not to such drastic degrees. When a market becomes saturated with a product then a dramatically lower price is expected. This is not the case with the ball pythons. I know of no breeders, large or small, that have a surplus of animals sitting around that they can not sell at a decent price. They sell every year, thus the demand is still there. Certain morphs have dropped dramatically; Yellow-bellies, pastels, pinstripes, etc. There is really no justification for the prices dropping from $1500 plus two to three years ago to $150-$300 today. These are key ingrediants in making some amazing animals and are building block mutations. They will always be in high demand. I know a several breeders that are happily keeping all female yellowbellies and pastels because they are not willing to part with them for the "current market price" of $150

---

and i will be one of those,if i am going to get screwed on prices,then it will be combos and higher priced animals atleast:)

A bit of relief for those of you concerned about plummeting ball python prices: I think that current breeders of quality animals know that they can set their prices well above what the poor quality breeders are charging and still sell. Take a page out of their book.

For those of you who are worried about your "investments" (I hate calling snakes "investments", they're living creatures for goodness' sake) going bad, don't worry. Focus on breeding true quality animals and provide premium customer service. There is still room in the market for expensive top-of-the-line examples of morphs.

Be Rolex, let the undercutters be Timex(or whatever analogy works for you).