Sulfur = Fire

Again the only objections for keeping it known as the sulfur at this moment are the unknowns the ifs & maybe's. I guess some people don't care about the fact that this will become rampant in the hobby soon if we don't clear it up now. In the end if you produce a new morph I can buy the same snake that may look slight different in shade and or pattern and say it is different. How would you feel if this eventually happened to you? Maybe I should go to petco and buy a ball and say hey it looks kind of lightly colored and if it throws a light baby in a few years then I can call it a light ball ball python and sell it for 1,500.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SUPERBALLS

blood test! sense when did we need that to determine genetics of ball python morphs, i dont think comparing fires and sulfers to cinnamons and blacks is to far off. like i said they also have differnt looks just like the cinny and black and there combos are different looking to, but still have the same super;)

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I currently have a super cinny en route. It is not the same mutation as a super black pastel. It has silver and a dark grey color to it. The super black pastels are almost pitch black. Super fires/sulfurs are identical. No shade difference at all. And fires and sulfurs are also the same. I would bet even though you say they look the same if I took clutches from both you couldn't separate them correctly. With cinny's and black pastels I bet you could.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by envy_ld50

Again the only objections for keeping it known as the sulfur at this moment are the unknowns the ifs & maybe's. I guess some people don't care about the fact that this will become rampant in the hobby soon if we don't clear it up now. In the end if you produce a new morph I can buy the same snake that may look slight different in shade and or pattern and say it is different. How would you feel if this eventually happened to you? Maybe I should go to petco and buy a ball and say hey it looks kind of lightly colored and if it throws a light baby in a few years then I can call it a light ball ball python and sell it for 1,500.

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so are you argueing the piont that a cinny is the same as a black pastel cause im telling you this seems to be the same situation because in reallity cinny and black are differnt morphs, just like the butters and lesser

Quote:

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Originally Posted by envy_ld50

Again the only objections for keeping it known as the sulfur at this moment are the unknowns the ifs & maybe's. I guess some people don't care about the fact that this will become rampant in the hobby soon if we don't clear it up now. In the end if you produce a new morph I can buy the same snake that may look slight different in shade and or pattern and say it is different. How would you feel if this eventually happened to you? Maybe I should go to petco and buy a ball and say hey it looks kind of lightly colored and if it throws a light baby in a few years then I can call it a light ball ball python and sell it for 1,500.

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You can, and people do, but they usually go for about $150. If you prove a c.h. or w.c as a genetic light ball and sell them as genetic light balls for $1,500, then more power to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by envy_ld50

I currently have a super cinny en route. It is not the same mutation as a super black pastel. It has silver and a dark grey color to it. The super black pastels are almost pitch black. Super fires/sulfurs are identical. No shade difference at all. And fires and sulfurs are also the same. I would bet even though you say they look the same if I took clutches from both you couldn't separate them correctly. With cinny's and black pastels I bet you could.

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yoru telling me you cant tell the difference in a fire and sulpher or there combos like the fire pastel and sulpher pastel cause i sure as hell can, and im not saying there as differnt as cinnys are to blacks, but i think its still the same genetic style

My point is they are different lines.

No one has a problem saying Graziani cinny or pastel. Or BHB cinny or nerd lemon pastel. It is understood they are different lines yet the same morph.

I think this is the same concept adding the fact that no one has yet to prove the Fires and Sulphurs are compatable. That is an assumption untill proven to be genetically true.

I understand where you are coming from but just because the supers are similar doesnt make them the same exact morph quite yet until proven and even then they would still be different lines.

Vin Russo's, mojaves, butters and lessers make BEL's but they arent the same morphs?

I have seen Amirs black eyed line hets (hypo glows) in person and they are visibly different than fires yet they produce similar supers.

It is important to distinguish lines so future breeders can have more knowledge of the genetic pool they are working with and make there choices accordingly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

You can, and people do, but they usually go for about $150. If you prove a c.h. or w.c as a genetic light ball and sell them as genetic light balls for $1,500, then more power to you.

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i agree, if your serious about this hobby and spend $1,500 on a morph and get burned or buy the same morph as another one for less, its your fault you need to reaserch before purchasing, or deciede that your ok paying more for somthing potentilly different

Quote:

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

My point is they are different lines.

No one has a problem saying Graziani cinny or pastel. Or BHB cinny or nerd lemon pastel. It is understood they are different lines yet the same morph.

I think this is the same concept adding the fact that no one has yet to prove the Fires and Sulphurs are compatable. That is an assumption untill proven to be genetically true.

I understand where you are coming from but just because the supers are similar doesnt make them the same exact morph quite yet until proven and even then they would still be different lines.

Vin Russo's, mojaves, butters and lessers make BEL's but they arent the same morphs?

I have seen Amirs black eyed line hets (hypo glows) in person and they are visibly different than fires yet they produce similar supers.

It is important to distinguish lines so future breeders can have more knowledge of the genetic pool they are working with and make there choices accordingly.

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bang!!!!!!!!!! right on the head, thank you, i really belive they are different lines and maybe a different morph all together

Again I have seen both and they both look like fires. They both vary in color and pattern. Many other breeders I know and talk to have agreed with me that this type of think needs to be fixed. I know that alot of people will defend so called lines and unproven morphs just because others do. But simply if it's unproven it's unproven! And there is really no way to argue that. I will believe something is different when I see it proven. No disrespect to the sulfur combos because fires are my favorite and the combos are identical so I love them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

My point is they are different lines.

No one has a problem saying Graziani cinny or pastel. Or BHB cinny or nerd lemon pastel. It is understood they are different lines yet the same morph.

I think this is the same concept adding the fact that no one has yet to prove the Fires and Sulphurs are compatable. That is an assumption untill proven to be genetically true.

I understand where you are coming from but just because the supers are similar doesnt make them the same exact morph quite yet until proven and even then they would still be different lines.

Vin Russo's, mojaves, butters and lessers make BEL's but they arent the same morphs?

I have seen Amirs black eyed line hets (hypo glows) in person and they are visibly different than fires yet they produce similar supers.

It is important to distinguish lines so future breeders can have more knowledge of the genetic pool they are working with and make there choices accordingly.

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A lot of people must not be reading the whole thread. I have said all along the morph needs to be proven. And that breeders SHOULD distinguish thier lines if they choose like BHB and Graziani have done. Certain posters are not reading and fully understanding what is being said. But I agree with you Raul. We need to take the time to prove out our animals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

How would that be misleading? If you import a snake that proves genetic, name it the purple dragon, and sell them all day long. I'd be interested in a new line of BEL complex snake like that.

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Like I said. If I did NOT prove it genetic and just sold the offspring that looked close or the same. That would be the same situation as this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SUPERBALLS

i agree, if your serious about this hobby and spend $1,500 on a morph and get burned or buy the same morph as another one for less, its your fault you need to reaserch before purchasing, or deciede that your ok paying more for somthing potentilly different

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This statement is not what I believe our hobby is about. We need to cut misleading information! You cant say oh you didn't know it was unproven and now own a snake you could have purchased cheaper. This is the whole point of this thread. Why would you want people to be uneducated on animals due to misleading information? It just doesn't make sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by envy_ld50

I have done alot of research on fires and received information from Davies including pictures that show color changes in continued breeding. The fact that they may be different lines makes them no different. They are still the same morph.

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Davies was one of the reasons a name was given to this morph. He told me there is no way they are fires they don't even look close. As far as waiting for a super to be produced before selling them or releasing info, well that's just not the norm in this hobby/business.

Dave might be able to elaborate on this more, but I believe someone told him the name Fire had been trademarked and he couldn't use it. I personally think they were full of it, but why bother making people mad.

One last thing that's been irking me. Can we all get on the same page with the spelling, it's 'Sulfur'. I notice it with Mojave/Mohave a lot as well.

Envy your new site is going to be Sulfurpythons.com does that make you biased against the name? LOL

Eric

To me sulfur is just as much not proven to be the same as fire as it is not proven to be different. Why should the burden of proof be more on one side of the argument than the other? When sulfur was first named and fires where high dollar you better believe fire owners would have been all over anyone calling sulfurs fires.

The recent evidence that the homozygous sulfur looks like the homozygous fire helps make the case that they might be the same but even now if the sulfur line name was to be changed to fire it could well prove to be the misleading info. We may yet confirm subtle differences mentioned here or maybe even incompatibility. Even once the two are bred together and if they prove compatible we could still have an allele situation and might never be able to prove one way or the other. The debate still goes on for lesser vs. butter.

If the original sulfur line was held until fully understood (and I’m not sure that is even possible without genetic mapping) we would all know less about it than we do now. There would be fewer neat combos out there, and other breeders would still be waiting years to get to work with them. Sure we should do our best to avoid confusion but I would argue that letting other breeders work with this line so that they can provide first hand opinions and making the morph a public item of discussion will do more for getting clarity sooner than keeping the project until all questions are answered. What if the originator comes to the wrong conclusion after keeping the morph from the public for years and years while the price of fires drops to where there is no longer great resistance to calling the new line fire? A lot of time would have been wasted and fewer people would be interested in working to confirm the originator’s answers. The hobby would have largely passed the potential new line/morph by.

I think benefits sharing the opportunity to work with a new line/possible new morph with other breeders outweighs any short term potential for confusion for the industry. If lesser and butter where still being held by the originators while they sorted out if they are exactly the same or not (or the platy issue) think of all the current lesser owners who wouldn't have that morph to enjoy.

Eric, I dont hold a bias against the name snake or you by any means. I chose the name sulfur pythons because there's so many ball morphs that are intense yellow. Plus I made a really cool logo lol. I really want the super to prove to be different somewhere along the line, it's another subtle morph that may have something awesome hiding in there if it proves to be different. Like randy said I guess only time will tell. Randy had alot of good points! If sulfur's prove out I will work with them no doubt.

Envy, I was just playing with the biased thing. Just wanted to make sure you knew that as it's easy for things to be misconstrued in text.

Here is a pic I took of the original Sulfur female. I think most of us know Dave is a little lacking in the photography skills dept.;) so I thought I'd throw this up here. I personally hate this pic because of the stuck shed but it's the only one I have. Pictured with her is a normal, it looks really dark but it's just your average normal, and a really nice Mojave het hypo. I'm hoping to hatch some Hypo Sulfurs this coming season, which will be another cross we can compare with the fire equivalent.

Eric

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...snakes_073.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by envy_ld50

Joe,

Spot on! This is how I view the situation as well. Unfortunately the original breeder let the project leak before any of this had been done. I feel it is ethical to refer to this as a fire from both the sulfur and Flame Hypo standpoint! At this point in time everything is the same. I believe the Flame Hypo has been bred with the Davies fire. When we can prove that the sulfur is indeed it's own mutation or an allele of the fire we then can add extra tags to the baggage.

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I remember hearing somewhere that Amir's flame hypo's make black-eyed lucy's WITHOUT the yellow splotching. Don't know if it's true or not, but that would be a difference I'd be willing to pay for.

As far as the sulfur/fire naming thing, this thread just goes to show ya that you can't please everyone all the time. It's been mentioned here already, but the sulfur got it's name because of the fact that everyone was giving him grief over saying it was probably a fire.

Not only are there Amir's "flame hypo" line, NERD has a co-dom hypo line as well as another line that Wilbanks has that is compatible with the fires.

I really think that you are looking at this all wrong Envy. I know a lot of the background on the fire line and I can tell you that some people would not have been very happy about the "sulfur" being called a fire. I may be wrong, but I do not believe the name "sulfur" was coined until after a breeding and resulting offspring showed that it was genetic.
I would rather have 50 names to name a particular morph so that I know exactly what lines I have in there.
I have read this entire thread and I am still lost in your "proof" lines. The Graziani cinny and other lines were sold as such before it was proven that there was a super. Are you saying that anyone that feels that have a new morph should hold onto the progeny year after year waiting to try to prove a super?
That is why animals are sold as "dom, possibly co-dom".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Here is the thread with pictures: http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...799#post902799

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WOW! that snake is SMOKING!!

There needs to be a snake committee so this can stop...all these morphs that are pretty much the same but have variations in price..ugh

Kinda the reason why I just got an RTB.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by envy_ld50

A lot of people must not be reading the whole thread. I have said all along the morph needs to be proven. And that breeders SHOULD distinguish thier lines if they choose like BHB and Graziani have done. Certain posters are not reading and fully understanding what is being said. But I agree with you Raul. We need to take the time to prove out our animals.

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I think you need to go do a little bit more research on your history. Do you realize that Graziani and McCurly produced the first Pastels the same year. Then they both sold animals before they were proven to have a Super, or that they were proven to be compatible. Yet 10 years later, we still have NERD Lemons and Graziani Pastels. I also would like to know what you mean by Sulfurs being unproven? Are you talking about wether or not they are proven compatible? As far as that goes, NERD has a line of Axanthics, but has yet to test compatibility with other established lines. What do we call those Axanthics?

I think Randy's post pretty much summed it up.

I was wondering if you had any pics of the big female Eric, I know you had her for awhile, and liked her:) She looks good in your pic, but not as Burgundy as she does in some pics. Could be a lighting thing, but your pic is pretty darn representitive of how she looks.

I agree, there is no way to please everyone. I did what I felt was right at the time, and have no regrets. I think some of you have gotten way too wound up and upset about it, for pretty petty reasons. I think the "confusion" arguement is old and tired. If you are trying to say that someone will buy a Sulfur and not know what they are buying, I doubt it. If you think anyone will sell a Sulfur and knowingly mislead someone as to what they are selling, and what someone is buying, I think you have misjudged our character.

Also, whoever said EBN has had Sulfurs "forever" is totally adding to the misinformation....EBN got 1.1 Sulfur Pastels and 0.1 Sulfurs FROM ME in 2006.
So, unless they got some animals from Eric, and I do not think they did, I would say 2006 to 2008 is far from "forever." The ORIGINAL breeding was done in 2005...so there are no Sulfurs older than 2005 except for my original female.

Thanks for all the interest, you know what they say about publicity....

Eric is right in his comment about not using the name Fire. I was told that Davies was making a big deal about the name, and that anyone using the name Fire to describe any snake other than a snake from his original line,would get sued...etc. Not that I was really worried, but that and a few other tidbits of information I got, made me go another direction.

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by muddoc

As far as that goes, NERD has a line of Axanthics, but has yet to test compatibility with other established lines. What do we call those Axanthics?

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It is my limited understanding that NERD's line is compatible with VPI's.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MPenn

It is my limited understanding that NERD's line is compatible with VPI's.

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Mike,
That is great to hear. Do you have any more info on that, or who tried it, what the breeding was, and what the outcome was?

Thanks,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

To me sulfur is just as much not proven to be the same as fire as it is not proven to be different. Why should the burden of proof be more on one side of the argument than the other? When sulfur was first named and fires where high dollar you better believe fire owners would have been all over anyone calling sulfurs fires.

The recent evidence that the homozygous sulfur looks like the homozygous fire helps make the case that they might be the same but even now if the sulfur line name was to be changed to fire it could well prove to be the misleading info. We may yet confirm subtle differences mentioned here or maybe even incompatibility. Even once the two are bred together and if they prove compatible we could still have an allele situation and might never be able to prove one way or the other. The debate still goes on for lesser vs. butter.

If the original sulfur line was held until fully understood (and I’m not sure that is even possible without genetic mapping) we would all know less about it than we do now. There would be fewer neat combos out there, and other breeders would still be waiting years to get to work with them. Sure we should do our best to avoid confusion but I would argue that letting other breeders work with this line so that they can provide first hand opinions and making the morph a public item of discussion will do more for getting clarity sooner than keeping the project until all questions are answered. What if the originator comes to the wrong conclusion after keeping the morph from the public for years and years while the price of fires drops to where there is no longer great resistance to calling the new line fire? A lot of time would have been wasted and fewer people would be interested in working to confirm the originator’s answers. The hobby would have largely passed the potential new line/morph by.

I think benefits sharing the opportunity to work with a new line/possible new morph with other breeders outweighs any short term potential for confusion for the industry. If lesser and butter where still being held by the originators while they sorted out if they are exactly the same or not (or the platy issue) think of all the current lesser owners who wouldn't have that morph to enjoy.

---

I echo many of Randy's pearls -- as well as supporting Eric and David for having done more with a "new morph" than many have done before making it readily available to the public (combos last season and Super this year).

I proved an animal this season (Het Cajun) that looked kind of like a Het Red Axanthic?? Sort of like a Lori Ball??? -- but was not related to either. Had I proved one of "those" 2 animals and chosen a name for them, I would have had a problem if someone (me in this case) proved an animal dominant (one clutch/one generation and slapped my animals name on it.

It is less confusing to attach a new name to a new line than adopt the established name/new line for a "similar" morph. Let the snake community decide which morph they like best and why. What is in a name? A rose by any other -- would smell as sweet...words to live by!!! Just an opinion -- everyone is entitled to one. MORE NAMES = LESS CONFUSION
:gj:

I want to think everyone for coming in and sharing their advice as well as many of the breeders who have been around longer than I as they have had shed some light on morph history. I think I will try to acquire a female sulfur for breeding this year or maybe even next year. I will try to see if they are compatible with fires on the super form. Maybe together we can get to the bottom of the sulfur faster as randy has mentioned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

There needs to be a snake committee so this can stop...all these morphs that are pretty much the same but have variations in price..ugh

Kinda the reason why I just got an RTB.

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Enjoy your rtb.... great snakes.... :)

We'll continue the open discussion and quest for information without a committee, education is key, not restriction! :gj:

It's been a fascinating read!

Just because they appear to be allelic, and likely have an effect on pigment and pattern in similar ways, does not necessarily make them the same gene.

Many genes also will have genes that work with them, like the *daddy*s and *sibs* that rdr is working with, that enhance genes that operate from the same locus.

does that make the genes the same? not necessarily. given the generation time of these pretty beasties, it is VERY difficult to say in the beginning that gene A functions the same as gene B in all situations, but if the phenotypes, ie, the way they look, varies CONSISTENTLY... what is wrong with providing distinction between them?

I think the most confusing part of this for potential buyers is that the various genes are not divided into *families* of similar function.... I mean if we could buy Locus A Mojaves, Locus A Butters, Locus A Lessers, Locus X Cinnamon Pastel, Locus X Black Pastel, Locus C Pastel Jungles, Locus C Lemon Pastel, Locus D Sulfurs, Locus D Fires, then the buyer would KNOW that this is a variation on genes from the same locus, that, while it may be SIMILAR in function, may not affect pigment and pattern in the same way, or interact with other genes at other, corresponding and complementary locuses in the same way.

The naming conventions may be related, not to differences in the gene SPECIFICALLY, but to a family of other genes that correspond with that gene that changes the phenotype slightly. Does that mean that it shouldn't have a different name? no, as long as the genes are explained to buyers SOMEWHERE.

This is just my $.02

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

I think Randy's post pretty much summed it up.

I was wondering if you had any pics of the big female Eric, I know you had her for awhile, and liked her:) She looks good in your pic, but not as Burgundy as she does in some pics. Could be a lighting thing, but your pic is pretty darn representitive of how she looks.

I agree, there is no way to please everyone. I did what I felt was right at the time, and have no regrets. I think some of you have gotten way too wound up and upset about it, for pretty petty reasons. I think the "confusion" arguement is old and tired. If you are trying to say that someone will buy a Sulfur and not know what they are buying, I doubt it. If you think anyone will sell a Sulfur and knowingly mislead someone as to what they are selling, and what someone is buying, I think you have misjudged our character.

Also, whoever said EBN has had Sulfurs "forever" is totally adding to the misinformation....EBN got 1.1 Sulfur Pastels and 0.1 Sulfurs FROM ME in 2006.
So, unless they got some animals from Eric, and I do not think they did, I would say 2006 to 2008 is far from "forever." The ORIGINAL breeding was done in 2005...so there are no Sulfurs older than 2005 except for my original female.

Thanks for all the interest, you know what they say about publicity....

Eric is right in his comment about not using the name Fire. I was told that Davies was making a big deal about the name, and that anyone using the name Fire to describe any snake other than a snake from his original line,would get sued...etc. Not that I was really worried, but that and a few other tidbits of information I got, made me go another direction.

Dave

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Dave, who-ever told you that Eric Davies is making a big deal out of the Sulfur/Fire situation, is sadly mistaken and just trying to stir up trouble!
As far as threatening to sue some-one, that is not his way of operating. Smacking some-one in the mouth or breaking a face - perhaps, but sueing, never!!
Eric Davies could not give a monkey's cuss who claims what or does what =he has more to do with his life than petty things like that;

And just in case you are wondering how I know -

I AM Eric Davies!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric Sandoval

Envy, I was just playing with the biased thing. Just wanted to make sure you knew that as it's easy for things to be misconstrued in text.

Here is a pic I took of the original Sulfur female. I think most of us know Dave is a little lacking in the photography skills dept.;) so I thought I'd throw this up here. I personally hate this pic because of the stuck shed but it's the only one I have. Pictured with her is a normal, it looks really dark but it's just your average normal, and a really nice Mojave het hypo. I'm hoping to hatch some Hypo Sulfurs this coming season, which will be another cross we can compare with the fire equivalent.

Eric

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...snakes_073.jpg

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Very nice Fire female you have there Eric!
Eric Davies

Emberball, just as a matter of nterest, who have you been getting your 'gossip' from? I speak to very few people, and those that I do speak to are trustworthy and personal friends, so apart from a small argument tnat I had with a greasy, olive sucking tosser on a forum in the UK.- and Sulfers were not referred to in that argument, I have't spoken to anyone outside my small circle of friends. If you receive any further comments attributed to me, they are most likely to be lies!
Eric Davies

Eric D., I am not going to get into an arguement over who said what 3 or 4 years ago.

I did talk to you via email regarding the Ember project. My recollection is that you were less than helpful, and said point blank, that the Ember was not a Fire. Whether you believed that, or were just protecting your Fire investment, when Fires were $30K each or more, I don't know.

The Ember came first, and was quickly thought to be a type of Co Dom Hypo. Most fingers pointed to Fire, and I think I emailed you, or you emailed me. Too me, the Ember is much more yellow as a baby, and as an adult, than a Fire. Looking back, it could be because the two Ember babies (05) were Het Hypo, which may have affected their look a bit. The info I received from people regarding the name Fire, and using the name Fire, came from the Ember, not the Sulfur. I was told by several people, not to use the name Fire, as it was being trademarked, and that you and Bob were guarding the name closely. I chose Ember, a Fire like name, in case the Ember did turn out to be a Fire, the name would "make sense." The information regarding the name Fire, was not rehashed once the Sulfur was proven genetic, and not a simple recessive, but what was found to be off limits for the Ember, was thought to be off limits for the Sulfur. What I mean was, people said not to use the name Fire for the Ember, so we chose to logically not use it for the Sulfur. Perhaps, if you had been a bit more helpful, or willing to talk via email, I might have emailed you directly. As I remember, I really had no desire to talk to you again, based on your short and not overly friendly emails. That combined with what I was hearing from others, well, I did what I thought was best for me and my project.

It is easy to say you do not care who used what after the fact, when Het Black Eyed Lucies are around $500. I believe you had a different tone, and sang a different tune, when they were $30-40K. I never blamed you for wanting to protect the Fire name, but you protecting the Fire name is one of the reasons I named the Ember and Sulfurs, so you come up in conversation every once in a blue moon.

Dave

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...snakes_073.jpg[/QUOTE]

i dont know a lot about royals but that looks just like an adult fire to me . What would you say is the difference please ? From what i have read , they both probuce BEL's and look the same to me so is it until they are bred with each other that they are called different names . Surely somebody would have tried to cross the two lines to see if they were compatible and can produce a BEL from this pairing ?

Nik

David , who do you talk to? Some-one has fed you a load of crap! You come up with a statement like 'and that you and Bob were guarding the name closely'
Bob was never my business partner, how-ever much he may have wanted to be, We (EMBER REPTILES) which, may I add, were in existance long before you decided to use the name 'Ember' for your ball, sold a number of Fire males to Bob -Mike was never mentioned in any of Bob's e-mails, nor did I know of his existance for quite some time.
You are quite right when you refer to the manner with which I replied to your mails, I don't tolerate fools easily!
Like I said in my earlier post, I am not interested in who uses what name or who breeds what. I have more important tnings to think about than the precious BALL.
The Fire was in existance in the UK in 1997, when was the Ember first hatched???
Eric Davies

Eric, shoot me an email...Hoggwldreptile@aol.com

Fools?

I asked you what you thought of a snake. A snake that everyone was telling me looked like a Fire. You are the Fire guy, so I emailed you. That makes me a fool. You are a joke.

Forget what I said, don't email me, I have nothing to say to you. You have shown your true colors man, and YOU have backed up everything that people have said about you...funny how that works.

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slangman

Surely somebody would have tried to cross the two lines to see if they were compatible and can produce a BEL from this pairing ?

Nik

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I don't think that has happened yet. Hopefully there are getting to be enough of both that someone will cross fire to sulfur soon. Until then regardless of who said what and when it's probably best that they have two different names.

So what happened with the ember ball? Has it proven and is there a homozygous known yet? Any compatibility with sulfur or fire tested or planed?

I don't know either of you Eric or Dave. Nor do I pretend to know all the details of your communications, timeline of projects in question, or any other number of important details tied to your conflict/dispute with each other.

However, I STRONGLY believe that more/different morph names is BETTER than lumping even remotely similar animals with NO GENETIC ties TOGETHER. Separation of lineage is BETTER. Allowing the viewing/buying public to decide which morphs they wish to support, and applaud -- is BETTER.

Differentiation, for lack of a better word, is GOOD. Differentiation is right. Differentiation works. Differentiation clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of proving and NAMING ball python morphs!!! Viva the DIFFERENCE!!!:handshake

The Ember project has not gone quite as planned.

I have the original female, and 1.1 05 Het Hypo Ember's from the original female, bred to a Ghost male. Since then, the male has not seemed interested in breeding, but I have high hopes this year. He has been in with the original Ember female, as well as the 05 Ember Het Hypo female. Hoping for some luck this year.

An 06 breeding produced 5 eggs that went bad, and one good egg. A Pastel Ember hatched out, looked healthy, but never shed, and never fed on its own, and ended up living only a month or so. It was stunning, and its death was a bummer.

This year, Ember het Hypo x Ember Het Hypo, Ember Het Hypo x Ember, Ember Het Hypo x Het Hypo, and Ember Het Hypo x normal....that is my plan for the Ember project this year. MIGHT do Ember het Hypo x Pastel, but have not decided.

One thing about the appearance of the Sulfur vs. the Fire. In my opinion, there are stunning, average, and below average animals from each line. If you like the Fire, based on one or two animals, don't count out the Sulfur. If you like the Sulfur, based on one or two pics, don't count out the Fire.

I think the Sulfur and Fire probably are two prime examples of Morphs that should be selectively bred....I think light females are the way to go, for male Sulfurs and Fires.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

Fools?

I asked you what you thought of a snake. A snake that everyone was telling me looked like a Fire. You are the Fire guy, so I emailed you. That makes me a fool. You are a joke.

Forget what I said, don't email me, I have nothing to say to you. You have shown your true colors man, and YOU have backed up everything that people have said about you...funny how that works.

Dave

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Quite right Dave, I have a reputation to live up to!
I am a miserable,old git whose legs don't work, have a ****ey heart, plastic arteries, failing kidneys and a shot back - and you think I am in the least bothered what people 'think' about me??? Go play with your balls!

So do I understand right that the ember female produced babies that also have the ember look from that original hypo cross? Were there also some normal looking babies?

I did get to see a young adult fire at the Denver show in August and was blown away by how nice he looked so I definitely see the potential and will get one of the lines eventually. A guy near me has a flame hypo but I think it's a female if I remember right so he probably will not have lots of them any time soon.

Randy, shoot me an email, and I will see if I can get you some Ember pics. I have a newer computer, and sometimes have a hard time sending old pics.

The Ember babies are nicer than the Sulfur babies, as far as uncrossed animals. The 05 Embers are still MUCH more yellow than any Sulfur or Fire that I have seen.

Hi,

Ok guys this is getting a lot less family friendly than we like around here - if you want to call each other names and such then please do it via the PM system.

Any further name calling etc in the thread will be infracted - fair warning.

It would be a shame to lose any pertinent information from your posts because other parts of them breach the T.O.S.


dr del

Here is a pic of a female Fire that I produced this season and her father.
Enjoy,
Kevin Stoltz
www.kmsreptiles.com
female
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/e...z/CSC_0040.jpg

Sire
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/e...DSC_0011-1.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Ok guys this is getting a lot less family friendly than we like around here - if you want to call each other names and such then please do it via the PM system.

Any further name calling etc in the thread will be infracted - fair warning.

It would be a shame to lose any pertinent information from your posts because other parts of them breach the T.O.S.


dr del

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Derek, you are quite right and I appologise for my comments. I am often quoted as having said this and that when the opposite is often the case.
People who 'really' kow me, know that I am not the person portrayed, and will help any-one who asks for or needs help.
Once again, please accept my appologies for my publlic outburst.
Eric Davies

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Herpquest

Derek, you are quite right and I appologise for my comments. I am often quoted as having said this and that when the opposite is often the case.
People who 'really' kow me, know that I am not the person portrayed, and will help any-one who asks for or needs help.
Once again, please accept my appologies for my publlic outburst.
Eric Davies

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Takes a honerable man to apologise . well done herpquest .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

However, I STRONGLY believe that more/different morph names is BETTER than lumping even remotely similar animals with NO GENETIC ties TOGETHER. Separation of lineage is BETTER. Allowing the viewing/buying public to decide which morphs they wish to support, and applaud -- is BETTER.

Differentiation, for lack of a better word, is GOOD. Differentiation is right. Differentiation works. Differentiation clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of proving and NAMING ball python morphs!!! Viva the DIFFERENCE!!!:handshake

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I will have to say that i disagree with you mate . I think there are possibly too many names for morphs of which many might indeed be the very same morph . I would prefer to use a specific bloodline of a certain morph rather than a new name all together(even if it does point in someway to the original) . Say for example the albino boas have their lines names after the khal strain and the Sharp strain . So if these sulphur and ember and Fire are bred together and proven to be compatible then i would for one be happy to call them what they would be (Fires) and simply differentiate the lines by their owners or founders or even a specific breeders name . This way they can still be differentiated easily but it means we are all calling an 'apple' an apple if you get what i mean. Does anyone have fires and sulphurs that is willing to try the cross out ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slangman

Takes a honerable man to apologise . well done herpquest .



I will have to say that i disagree with you mate . I think there are possibly too many names for morphs of which many might indeed be the very same morph . I would prefer to use a specific bloodline of a certain morph rather than a new name all together(even if it does point in someway to the original) . Say for example the albino boas have their lines names after the khal strain and the Sharp strain . So if these sulphur and ember and Fire are bred together and proven to be compatible then i would for one be happy to call them what they would be (Fires) and simply differentiate the lines by their owners or founders or even a specific breeders name . This way they can still be differentiated easily but it means we are all calling an 'apple' an apple if you get what i mean. Does anyone have fires and sulphurs that is willing to try the cross out ?

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Your position is a valid and arguable. However, I would submit that the heat which has been generated by the Fire/Sulfer conflict is a perfect example of why more is better.

Do we think that Mr. Davies is going to position himself to purport the Fire and Sulfer as the same morph -- I highly doubt it -- and I would SUPPORT his position.

I hesitate to discuss anyone elses project, so I'll use one of mine as an example. I proved an animal which I named Het Cajun. If I were to group it with an existing morph, the Het Red, Lori Ball, Black Lace are the 3 that come to mind -- there may be more. The captive hatched foundation female that produced for me last season has NO connection to the similar morphs mentioned.

Let's say also, for argument's sake, that my Het Cajun is a prettier base morph, makes a better super, and is FAR better in combos. Or the reverse all of that -- say any one of the others is clearly the best in all those important areas. Why would the breeder with the 'better" animal want to be linked in name with the others?

I believe, based on what I have observed, most ball python people don't seem to expend the energy needed when paying attention to lines of the same morph -- at least to the extent required to address the differentiation issue at hand.

More names makes sense because it is EASIER for most people in the hobby. I don't feel that compatibility necessarily makes morphs the same -- it just makes them compatible. But I could be mistaken...:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

Your position is a valid and arguable. However, I would submit that the heat which has been generated by the Fire/Sulfer conflict is a perfect example of why more is better.

Do we think that Mr. Davies is going to position himself to purport the Fire and Sulfer as the same morph -- I highly doubt it -- and I would SUPPORT his position.

I hesitate to discuss anyone elses project, so I'll use one of mine as an example. I proved an animal which I named Het Cajun. If I were to group it with an existing morph, the Het Red, Lori Ball, Black Lace are the 3 that come to mind -- there may be more. The captive hatched foundation female that produced for me last season has NO connection to the similar morphs mentioned.

Let's say also, for argument's sake, that my Het Cajun is a prettier base morph, makes a better super, and is FAR better in combos. Or the reverse all of that -- say any one of the others is clearly the best in all those important areas. Why would the breeder with the 'better" animal want to be linked in name with the others?

I believe, based on what I have observed, most ball python people don't seem to expend the energy needed when paying attention to lines of the same morph -- at least to the extent required to address the differentiation issue at hand.

More names makes sense because it is EASIER for most people in the hobby. I don't feel that compatibility necessarily makes morphs the same -- it just makes them compatible. But I could be mistaken...:)

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I am with Bill on this one. Slightly different looking animals that may or may not be the same from completely different origins should have different names. On the other hand I am getting tired of all of the combo morph names. Why can’t a Pastel Fire just be called a Pastel Fire instead of a Fire Fly?:colbert:

I agree about all the names for the double morphs, I honestly do not know a tenth of them, and do not know half of the double morphs listed in ads. I would vote for Pastel Fire, and Pastel Sulfur...

In his emails to me, Eric S. calls a Sulfur Mojave a SuMo, and I kind of like that. It just shortens up the name a bit. I think the Sulfur Pastel could be called the SuPa, pronounced like Super, with a strong accent of some sort. Going with the Bumble Bee theme, Eric said the Sulfur Spider Pastel should be called the Stinky Bee, which I thought was funny as did my wife. These are all tongue in cheek, but somewhat known to a few people that have Sulfurs.

My opinion, people just WANT to be the one to name something.

I went up to the LA auto show today, and on the way, did some thinking about something. Any CH or new line of Het Black Eyed Lucy that comes in from Africa, will either be called something new, or in all probability, a Fire. I have to admit, I am not sure how I would react to someone bringing in a new line of Het Black Eyed Lucy, from Africa, and calling it a Sulfur. It really would not "be" a Sulfur, would it? To me, a Sulfur is a direct descendant of my big female. Second thing, when it does get done, Sulfur x Fire, what will the offspring be called? I would guess the default line, or if one is not sure, the name Fire would be used. To me, this keeps the Sulfur kind of exclusive. Not trying to make a big deal about it, but there might be 10 lines of Fire one day, and probably only one line of Sulfur. I have no problem with that.

Dave