Is there a Morph you will never own/breed due to genetics?

Thanks for posting that link at RDR's forums, I was actually trying to find it this morning. If you aren't a member to his forum and don't feel like signing up to just read his post here it is:

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Ralph
Boner Chief



USA
3220 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2007 : 1:45:09 PM Show Profile Email Poster Send Ralph a Private Message Reply with Quote
EVERY SINGLE ONE of my spiders are tweaked........I have close to 30 now I think?.............I don't sugar coat :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:........SPIDERS do weird :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:........even the very subtle stuff I can see easily.........I'm not in denial about it.

I have adult breeder females and males.........sub adults and babies.........there isn't a single one that doesn't spin, wobble or tilt it's head to the side to some degree,,,,,,,I produced some, got some from other breeders........some start and then stop.........some stop and then start again....

Watch your spider at night cruising in the cage..........now that's a real TREAT!!

I have spiders that do loop de' loops at night.

ROCK ON!

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I've not had the opportunity to work for Ralph Davis, but I've had the pleasure going up to his place and having a tour and him coming to Peter Kahl's facility and talking to him a lot along with seeing the results of his years and years of breeding snakes. I know Adam also wrote up a thing on spiders a year or two ago. That can be found here:
http://forum.8ballpythons.com/blog/?p=5

Seems as if a can of worms has been opened.

Bottom line is, whatever you believe in as far as what genetically is predisposed to or not, the real question is "Would you own or breed one?"

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

the real question is "Would you own or breed one?"

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I'd never buy one. If someone had to rehome there spider and was unable to do so or gave me one I'd give it a good home but as far as breeding goes absolutely not.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Seems as if a can of worms has been opened.

Bottom line is, whatever you believe in as far as what genetically is predisposed to or not, the real question is "Would you own or breed one?"

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Yes, I do own spiders, and have bred them. My adult spider does not show any syptoms, and the offspring does not either.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Seems as if a can of worms has been opened.

Bottom line is, whatever you believe in as far as what genetically is predisposed to or not, the real question is "Would you own or breed one?"

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Heather I wasn't trying to open a can of worms, just give my opinion as to why I wouldn't work with them. The only other morph I don't care for are axanthics. I like yellow snakes, so removing yellow is a turn off for me.

Is that more what you had in mind?

I am a bit torn on the subject. I really love some of the spider combos that have been produced. However I still do not own a spider due to their abnormal behavior. A friend of mine has a few spiders, and when I look at them I actually feel sorry for the things. It's like they don't have full control over their body and it makes them look confused and pitiful. I'm not sure if I could produce more animals like that.

To me the next best pattern morph after the spider would be the Pinstripe; I may just decide to work with those and pass on spiders and spider combos all together.

I would also be curious to know whether all Caramels are kinked to one extreme or another, and if the ones that don't seem kinked actually are to a very slight degree. That would help me decide if the Caramel is a morph I want to work with or not. Right now I haven't made any plans for it.

Another morph I would not want to produce would be the super cinny. The "duck bill" nose is not flattering to me at all.

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Originally Posted by karbogast

Heather I wasn't trying to open a can of worms, just give my opinion as to why I wouldn't work with them. The only other morph I don't care for are axanthics. I like yellow snakes, so removing yellow is a turn off for me.

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I want to make it clear that I wasn't trying to belittle the discussion about Spinning in Spiders. EVERYONE has an opinion on it, to be sure.

I was just more curious about what traits you would not breed for DUE TO the genetic issues (which you may or may not consider an issue, depending on the trait)

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I take offense to this. It sounds to me like you are saying that I am am lying about my spiders. As I have said before. They do not wobble! If they do start to wobble then I will not breed them.

I have heard of accounts of spiders that wobble, but I have also heard of accounts of spiders that do not wobble, including myself.

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im not saying your lying but the guy you bought your snake from could be.. if you got your spider from a large breeder then there is no doubt in my mind they have produced a spider with the wobbles. its just like that rdr vid... if you breed spiders your gonna get some that arent right

ya there are spiders that dont have them.... BUT they still produce them and they still MAY start wobbling one day. thats all i was saying and you were disagreeing with facts...

There are really no morphs that I wouldn't ever own/breed due to genetics...other than maybe...animals that are ugly examples of their morph.

Plain and simple, I won't ever breed a pastel that looks normal, a spider with heavy pattern, cinnamons that look entirely too normal...albinos that turn into a yellow wash... there is so much that can be done with selective breeding. Case and point, look at what Albey has done with pastels, cinnamons, and pewters!

It irks me that all to many people go buy the most inexpensive animals they can find, throw them with any ol' proven breeder normal girl that they can find, not putting any thought into the pairing, and pass on those horrible UGLY genetics just to make a quick buck. Pastel males at $50-75...I mean COME ON! I have two lemon males that I hatched this year, no way I'll sell them for that cheap. If they age anything like their mother, which I'm guessing they will, they'll have spots in my racks.

Rant over!

I appreciate each and every morph in it's own right, as long as you represent your animals for what they are, and breed for the best quality animals you can, you have my respect.

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Originally Posted by Rapture

I would also be curious to know whether all Caramels are kinked to one extreme or another, and if the ones that don't seem kinked actually are to a very slight degree. That would help me decide if the Caramel is a morph I want to work with or not. Right now I haven't made any plans for it.

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I do not have years of experience in dealing with ball pythons. *disclaimer*

I did a lot of research prior to buying my caramel female; there were many, many caramel albinos that I saw (both advertised on the internet, and at various shows) that do not have any kinking (including my new girl - pictures after she sheds!! :D) I have seen a handful with kinking (both slight and severe), but more without.

To keep on Heather's thread............ ;)

I think through outcrossing, many undesirable traits can be lessened, or eliminated. I don't think there are any current morphs that I would be adementally against breeding, but I would be certain to do as much research as possible to make the best decision I could about my breeding choices.

Just my two cents. ;)

I agree that selective breeding and outcrossing can go a long way, and I think that if every breeder had the integrety that breeders like Ralph have, we might not need to have these conversations so often.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

I want to make it clear that I wasn't trying to belittle the discussion about Spinning in Spiders. EVERYONE has an opinion on it, to be sure.

I was just more curious about what traits you would not breed for DUE TO the genetic issues (which you may or may not consider an issue, depending on the trait)

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Due to genetic issues, then it would only be spiders that I wouldn't work with in the future. I did have a really nice male breeder spider at one point and produced 1.1 spiders from him. Shortly after my male bred with two nice females at about 6mos. of age I traded him for an exceptional juvie male chondro. When I had him he only displayed a mild tremor at feeding time, 5-7 months after I did the trade it became a different story. The shop owner accused me of trading him a spider BP that had IBD, because the severe cases do infact resemble the symptoms of IBD. I then had to explain the wobble issue to him as best I was aware of it at that time and told him I would trade back the chondro. Since the spider was feeding and breeding like a machine, he was happy to keep him because like many others he wanted to make bees. Two and a half years later, the shop owner still jokes about how tweaked out that spider is, and since he is in a display cage the spiders behavior is even more obvious and comical.

To those that profess their spiders are perfectly normal, then I challenge you to put them in display cage for a month and observe them at night. I feel confident many people would then change their tune.

Honestly I think the male spider I traded had a worse neuro issue than I originally thought, but being couped up in a tub and only observing him in limited periods plus my limited knowledge of the issue, I thought mine was a good one. This is my reason for not wanting to work with the spider morph ever again.

There are morphs that I don't like the looks of them, however spiders are the only ones that turn me off because of genetic issues.

Well for everyone poop pooing spiders I'm more than willing to have rack after rack after rack fo spider and their combos spinning or not. I just hatched 8 spiders and there is no greater thrill for me that to open those tubs and see those little hotties in there.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Well for everyone poop pooing spiders I'm more than willing to have rack after rack after rack fo spider and their combos spinning or not. I just hatched 8 spiders and there is no greater thrill for me that to open those tubs and see those little hotties in there.

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I'm with you on this one Freakie!!

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...piderTwins.jpg

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Well for everyone poop pooing spiders I'm more than willing to have rack after rack after rack fo spider and their combos spinning or not. I just hatched 8 spiders and there is no greater thrill for me that to open those tubs and see those little hotties in there.

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It is not about bashing spiders..... just giving opinions that are backed by seasoned breeders observations and our own experiences. That is what Heather asked for, and the fact that spiders seem to be the most discussed in this thread shows that it is not just some wild conspiracy theory of one breeder out to get another breeder. There is a high percentage of neuro problems with spiders PERIOD!!! Sorry Freakie, but putting your head in the sand doesn't make it any less valid.

As for keeping all your spider babies, well if you want to cool, but I don't think you will have any trouble selling them. Despite their drawbacks they are extremely popular especially with newbs.

Do you plan on being up front about the issue with potential customers? What will you do if someone comes back a couple months later and starts asking why his/her spider is tweaking out? If you don't have good answers to those questions, then the ethical thing to do would be to hang onto them. From your posts you seem like a responsible type of person and I have a feeling you will feel as bad as I did when it eventually happens to you.

I am not trying to rant about this to make anyone fell bad about their projects. I just feel strongly about this issue and I am not a timid person when it comes to voicing my opinion on this subject. That being said opinions are opinions, nothing more - nothing less.

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It is not about bashing spiders..... just giving opinions that are backed by seasoned breeders observations and our own experiences. That is what Heather asked for, and the fact that spiders seem to be the most discussed in this thread shows that it is not just some wild conspiracy theory of one breeder out to get another breeder. There is a high percentage of neuro problems with spiders PERIOD!!! Sorry Freakie, but putting your head in the sand doesn't make it any less valid.

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That's kind of a stretch I just said that for the people that didn't want to work with them that fine by me I'm more than happy to keep working with them. As for the opions offerd and back by seasoned breeders. I respect that but I also know that you wont call any "Seasoned" breed right now and have them tell you they aren't working with spiders. If its not a problem for them its not for me.

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here is a high percentage of neuro problems with spiders PERIOD!!!

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I never said there wasn't. I simply said I love them

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As for keeping all your spider babies, well if you want to cool, but I don't think you will have any trouble selling them. Despite their drawbacks they are extremely popular especially with newbs.

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I plan to sale mine. Despite the "drawbacks" they are popular period both with seasoned and newb's

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Do you plan on being up front about the issue with potential customers?

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100%

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What will you do if someone comes back a couple months later and starts asking why his/her spider is tweaking out?

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I guess I'll have to cross that bridge when I when I get there. But I don't think it'll be a problem after all hundreds of breeders sale hundreds of spiders every year with little to no problems

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If you don't have good answers to those questions, then the ethical thing to do would be to hang onto them.

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No the ethical thing to do would be for the customer to research the pet they wish to keep. Now again lets face it spiders aren't Wal-Mart Beta fish. So I figure if your dropping 300-450 on a specific morph ball python you've done your homework

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From your posts you seem like a responsible type of person and I have a feeling you will feel as bad as I did when it eventually happens to you.

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Feel bad. I don't think I'll feel bad I think I'll be frustrated at the lack of preparedness on the customers end.

Now lets be fair a little tweaked is one thing a Train Wreck is another. I couldn't in good peace of mind let go of a train wreck to a customer. But the "Tweaked" factor is a spider trait love it or hate it its in there. Like the issues with large breed dogs and their hips you either read up on the pet or you learn as you go.

Many members here preach about putting the animal first, and thinking about the wellbeing of the animal over money and personal desires. Then the same members breed a morph of BP with known genetic issues. I know most spiders live a perfectly normal life, but the fact is people breed them for personal or financial reasons and pretty much overlook the wobble/spin issues they have. To me, that isn't putting the animal first. I am not trying to stand on a pedestal, because a spider is one of my most desired morphs, and I will own and hopefully breed them some day. But I'm willing to admit that if/when I do breed spiders it will be more my interests in play than the wellbeing of the animal. I knowingly accept that spiders will have issues, but accept it for my own benefit. I may get flamed for saying that, but anyone breeding spiders is doing the same thing.

Am I wrong? Is it possible to continue to breed a morph with known genetic issues, and still claim to be putting the animals interests first?

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

Many members here preach about putting the animal first, and thinking about the wellbeing of the animal over money and personal desires. Then the same members breed a morph of BP with known genetic issues. I know most spiders live a perfectly normal life, but the fact is people breed them for personal or financial reasons and pretty much overlook the wobble/spin issues they have. To me, that isn't putting the animal first.

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When I talk about putting the animal first it means I have the animals best interests in mind. If I feel that an animal is to far gone to thrive and be a Ball Python on it on then the best thing to do is to put the animal down rather than let it suffer. Not putting the animal first would be buying a snake you can't feed or house or take to the vet. If you could predict when a spider would be tweaked that would be great but you can't so you have to produce the tweaked one to get to the non-tweaked there's nothing harmful about the slightly tweaked spiders. Train Wrecks maybe another story but that a different thread.

Many people own tweaked spiders that Eat, sleep, drink,crawl around, poop, pee, shed, bite, and breed. Sounds like every other Ball python I own.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

If you could predict when a spider would be tweaked that would be great but you can't so you have to produce the tweaked one to get to the non-tweaked there's nothing harmful about the slightly tweaked spiders. Train Wrecks maybe another story but that a different thread.

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I guess I don't see how you think continuing to breed a line with genetic defects, that is more likely to be a train wreck than other morphs, is putting the animal first. Sure, trainwrecks could happen with any morph, it's a fact of nature. But it's known that spiders are much more likely to have these issues, and they are still bred. Like I said before, I'm not being high and mighty, because I want to own and breed spiders too. But I think claiming to still be putting the animals interests 100% first in this situation is not true. KNOWING that they are more likely to trainwreck and still breeding them is because of personal reasons, not for the snake. Putting the animal first is in regard to ALL aspects, including breeding.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Well for everyone poop pooing spiders I'm more than willing to have rack after rack after rack fo spider and their combos spinning or not. I just hatched 8 spiders and there is no greater thrill for me that to open those tubs and see those little hotties in there.

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I'm with you 100%.:gj:

I'm all for breeding spiders, but I just think breeding them is more in the people's interest than the animal.

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

KNOWING that they are more likely to trainwreck and still breeding them is because of personal reasons, not for the snake.

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I guess it comes down to "how do you KNOW"? .... How do you "KNOW" that they are "MORE LIKELY" to so called "trainwreck" ... because you read it on the internet? Because someone told you? What is the base of experience that THOSE people are coming from ... did someone tell them as well?

Personally, I'm a "gotta see it for myself" kind of guy. I listen, watch, and form opinions, but in the end, I have to see what the deal is with my own eyes. Then and only then do I feel comfortable speaking in absolutes.

But that's just me.

And not to split hairs, but I would think that given a large enough sample size, you'd get a wide variety of definitions of what "putting the animals first" means ... there are plenty of folks out there that believe that no one that is keeping a critter as a pet is "putting the animal first" ... to each their own I guess.

Just my $.02 for whatever it's worth.

-adam

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

I'm all for breeding spiders, but I just think breeding them is more in the people's interest than the animal.

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Is breeding any animal in captivity really ever in that animals interest? I don't see how it could be?

Just some food for thought.

-adam

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

I'm all for breeding spiders, but I just think breeding them is more in the people's interest than the animal.

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Don’t you think the same applies for the other morphs as well?

We breed them for OUR interest, just like we keep them in captivity for OUR pleasure.

The bottom line is that people need to educate themselves and make the decision that is right for THEM whether they chose to breed or not to breed a certain morph.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I guess it comes down to "how do you KNOW"? .... How do you "KNOW" that they are "MORE LIKELY" to so called "trainwreck" ... because you read it on the internet? Because someone told you? What is the base of experience that THOSE people are coming from ... did someone tell them as well?

Personally, I'm a "gotta see it for myself" kind of guy. I listen, watch, and form opinions, but in the end, I have to see what the deal is with my own eyes. Then and only then do I feel comfortable speaking in absolutes.

But that's just me.

And not to split hairs, but I would think that given a large enough sample size, you'd get a wide variety of definitions of what "putting the animals first" means ... there are plenty of folks out there that believe that no one that is keeping a critter as a pet is "putting the animal first" ... to each their own I guess.

Just my $.02 for whatever it's worth.

-adam

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Great post.

Believe it or not, a lot of the stuff going on in the industry never makes it to the forums. The things that get on the forums then get recycled over and over and over, and a decent amount of these are half truths or half the story, or just drivel. Sometimes we have to realize this and slow down in perpetuating the forum recycling. Like Adam said, without 1st hand knowledge of the entire situation, I take what I read on the internet as what Brian would call, "Faction".

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I guess it comes down to "how do you KNOW"? .... How do you "KNOW" that they are "MORE LIKELY" to so called "trainwreck" ... because you read it on the internet? Because someone told you? What is the base of experience that THOSE people are coming from ... did someone tell them as well?

Personally, I'm a "gotta see it for myself" kind of guy. I listen, watch, and form opinions, but in the end, I have to see what the deal is with my own eyes. Then and only then do I feel comfortable speaking in absolutes.

But that's just me.

And not to split hairs, but I would think that given a large enough sample size, you'd get a wide variety of definitions of what "putting the animals first" means ... there are plenty of folks out there that believe that no one that is keeping a critter as a pet is "putting the animal first" ... to each their own I guess.

Just my $.02 for whatever it's worth.

-adam

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I highly agree with this.
Personally, I have never actually seen a kinked caramel or a wobble spider. My spider does not wobble.

I think if you really want to 'put the animals first' you should join PETA and get rid of all pets and seeing-eye dogs. :gj:

I'm just wondering how many people who have opined and posted their theories about spiders listened to what Kevin had to say about them on Reptile Radio?

And yes - I will keep and breed spiders!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I'm just wondering how many people who have opined and posted their theories about spiders listened to what Kevin had to say about them on Reptile Radio?

And yes - I will keep and breed spiders!

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Why would we listen to Kevin? It isn't like he's the guy who imported the original or anything. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:P:P:P

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I'm just wondering how many people who have opined and posted their theories about spiders listened to what Kevin had to say about them on Reptile Radio?

And yes - I will keep and breed spiders!

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About all spiders haveing the problems to some degree? Personally thats just one persons opinion, and I know that he has delt with sooooooo many spiders, but if they are all from his stock, wont they all have the same traits? IDK, so far ive had two spiders who have not shown any sines of being "special"

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Originally Posted by StickyTongues

Here's a link to the derma ball on Ralph Davis site. The derma is way towards the bottom.

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/in...ves/may-05.asp

I agree about the spiders. Bumblebees are what made me decide to start breeding ball pythons in the first place.

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Does Ralph Davis always talk like that? so many ...........

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I'm just wondering how many people who have opined and posted their theories about spiders listened to what Kevin had to say about them on Reptile Radio?

And yes - I will keep and breed spiders!

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What did he say?

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Originally Posted by pfan151

It may sound wierd, but I am actually a little more ok with small physical problems then I am with physiological problems.

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:banana:Lol! I couldn't disagree more! I love the crazies!!!:banana: Spiders are awesome! I accept any creature what ever its faults. yeah they were born a little different, more power to it!

I don't see what the big deal is?

Heather asked a question and many of us posted our opinions as well as the reasons for those opinions.

Robin, I did not hear what Kevin had to say on reptile radio. Is there a way to go back and listen to it?

I have to admit that his reluctance to shed light on this issue when spiders were still selling for a couple grand each doesn't lend much credibility to what he might have to say on the subject but I would like to understand his thinking behind the mess he created.

I respect many breeders that work with spiders, and that is a long list, but in reference to Heathers original ? I personally don't care for them simply because of the neuro issues. That is my choice to make, much like the overwhelming majority have the to right to choose to work with them.

Some people seem to be taking this waaay too personal, and it is not.

You like spiders, cool breed them and be responsible about how you sell your offspring.

If you don't like them or any other morph, cool breed the bazzilion other morphs that are out there and also be responsible about how you sell your offspring.

Yes I will keep and breed my Biak GTPs, even though many chondro keepers don't like thier hostile temperment.......... do I take it personal when people bash the bitey Biaks......... naaaaaaah I love'em anyway but I am not in denial about their nasty ways even if there are a few exceptions to the rule. If I have better luck next year with breeding them, I feel it is only right for potential buyers to know that Biaks are well know for their fiesty temperment so they can make the best choice for them. I don't have to do that, but I feel like a more responsible breeder if I try to help someone even if it is the type of reaserch that they should have done on their own.

While psycho biaks are not the same thing as neuro challenged spiders, it is the only example I could think of to show the type of disclosure that I feel spider breeders should excercise when selling their offspring.

can someone let me know what a spider wobble is? sounds fun...sounds like next big rap hit! do the spider wobble the spider wobble the spider wobble do the spider wobble

and imma get a spider soon for bumblebees, wobbly or not......to dooooope. caramels havent really been on my list any way and i read that their kinked, so ill prolly stay away from those unless I need one one day for a crazy combo, but not jus pure caramels.

Didn't read the whole thread, but for me I won't touch caramels...

I like spiders and am more than comfortable with the spinning. I spent a long time reading about them and following the threads first though.

Only had to see a few kinked caramels to make my mind up on them. And to see the crosses that look great, but after all that time and energy and investment seeing a kinked "such and such caramel"... not worth it.

(especially when an animal is obviously kinked and the person posting the pic is stating... no it isn't).

No way, no how, won't touch them.

Bruce

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Originally Posted by pfan151

What did he say?

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Here you go - it was a great show!

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/reptile...evin-from-NERD

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Originally Posted by karbogast

Robin, I did not hear what Kevin had to say on reptile radio. Is there a way to go back and listen to it?

I have to admit that his reluctance to shed light on this issue when spiders were still selling for a couple grand each doesn't lend much credibility to what he might have to say on the subject but I would like to understand his thinking behind the mess he created.

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The mess he created? His reluctance to shed light on the issue? Did you happen to call him to ask him to shed light when you first saw your spider wobble? Care to elaborate? Kevin has answered any question I've personally ever put to him, without reluctance or hesitation.


The link to the show is in the post above.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Is breeding any animal in captivity really ever in that animals interest? I don't see how it could be?

Just some food for thought.

-adam

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This is an exceptionally good point! Looks like a lot of people glazed over it.

Just as devils advocate here what is the advantage to the snake for breeding it in captivity? Does it live longer? Are we trying to breed a dying species to reintroduce it to the wild?

Only 3 reasons come to mind if no advantage for the actual animal being bred can be thought of:
1. Profit
2. Education (In which case after breeding once or twice you would think you would have learned the whole process or shown it to a young one.)
3. Experimentation (With experimentation you get unwanted results, what do you do with those? Experimentation also generally involves a stated end result or end game senerio. What is end game or is this reason actually a cover for reason 1?)

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Here you go - it was a great show!

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/reptile...evin-from-NERD

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Thanks for the link. He has a point on the out going thing, as one of the things I likeed about the spiders I used to have is their more inquisitive personalities then again if you want inquisitve how about working with a species of snake that doesn't need a neuro defect to be out going. All he really does is offer the same justifacations for promoting spiders despite the issues with them. And if I didn't think he was full of it before, I sure do now as he once said there was no pastel in the inferno and now his story has changed. If I get time I will find the post where he claims there is no pastel in it. Bottom line, at the time I bought my spider Kevin was still denying there was a problem with them and just kept promoting the unique personality, and when Ralph spoke up he said that RDR was out to hurt his bussiness.

I just don't trust him, and just cause he was the first to produce spiders doesn't make him a hero, it makes him the originator of one of the most contraversial morphs out. Kevys claim in the interview that he is viewed as the root of all evil in the "business" is down right comical and another attempt at deflection.

All that interview did was confirm my suspicion of him and his motives.

But this thread is not about him, it is about what morphs we chose not to work with and why.

So once again, spiders - neuro.

Honestly I have no desire to work with a bazzillion different morphs. I am working towards Super pastel Fire Yellowbellies and the combos inbetween and that should about cover it for ball pythons for me.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

The mess he created? His reluctance to shed light on the issue? Did you happen to call him to ask him to shed light when you first saw your spider wobble? Care to elaborate? Kevin has answered any question I've personally ever put to him, without reluctance or hesitation.


The link to the show is in the post above.

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Robin, at the time I got my spider in 2005, there wasn't as much know publicly and when it was brought up on KS or other boards Kevin quickly dismissed it as their quirky personalities. Seeing as he probably had access to more spiders than anyone else there was little reason to doubt him.

Yes, now that spiders are about $150 a pop, he is more than willing to be open and honest about the issue. To me that says a lot about a persons character or lack of it.

Why are you taking my opinion of spiders so personal?

Should I refrain from posting on issues that are controversial and stick to the "nice snake threads" ?

Or should I do the "hit and run" method of "hey look at the great new snake I hatched" and dissapear till the next great thing hatches? ...LOL

I am not the only one with this opinion of Kevin and his spiders, but at the same time I am not trying to dicourage people from breeding them or belittle those that like them. I am just tyring to provide some backgroung on a subject that not every member of BP.net is aware of, and try and give my full story on why I chose not to work with spiders. I am trying to be "freindly" about it because I understand that many people like spiders, I just wish the spider people would open their minds and realize that our reasons for not liking them are just as valid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by karbogast

I just wish the spider people would open their minds and realize that our reasons for not liking them are just as valid.

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For the record I am a "spider person" (i just bought one and i think she's the best thing since indoor plumbing), and I think your reasons for not wanting to work with them are perfectly valid, and I respect them.

:snake:

This is a very interesting thread with quite a few different topics floating around...
First off I love Spiders. A few years back I wanted a breeder Spider male and asked a good friend to invest. He decided to just buy the Spider himself and start a small breeding project. This Spider male is beautiful, displays no signs of spinning, and he has produced maybe 15 Spiders to date. Some of the hatchlings appeared perfect for the months before they were sold, a couple had slight head wobble, but one would literally do corkscrews... He would eat fine, lived fine, was active, but would just twist and turn... It was kinda neat and disturbing at the same time. :confuse: I feel (as do most I believe) that it is a random fault that appears with the Spider gene indefinitely. I personally would not acquire or breed a Spider that clearly displays the trait, but as Emilio stated the Spider is the "King of Combos" and I love what they can produce!:spid0r:
As for Caramels... I think that the Caramel Clown is one of the hottest new morphs around. Not to mention the Caramel Glow!:gj: But... Personally I dont have any desire to work with the Caramels due to their kinking... A few years back I picked up some snakes from another California breeder and this is what I was told. He traded a snake (years ago) for an adult Caramel female from a "big breeder". This adult snake came in kinked and he was told that the "big breeder" did not notice. So this guy was stoked as hell hatching out his own Caramels from this female and showed me a few in the egg. He was VERY, VERY excited and at the time was some of the first Caramels I had seen. A couple days later he let me know that they all came out so horribly kinked that they all had to be put down. I think that kinda ruined the Caramel for me!:tears:
Wh00h0069,
I personally dont believe that you can have a line of Spiders that will not produce wobblers or a line of Caramels that dont kink... I keep hearing about the Caramels that dont kink, but it always ends up being proven wrong and more hype than anything.
Simplechamp,
I think you have a good argument there... I own Spiders and think there combos are some of the most beautiful around and I hope to produce more to come. But... If you truly claim to "put the animals first" and then breed a morph with known genetic issues it does seem a bit hypocritical.

Now for the best interest of the snakes part...
To start with a quote from Adam. "Is breeding any animal in captivity really ever in that animals interest? I don't see how it could be?"
I agree with this... I like to give my snakes the best life I can... I keep my snakes as clean as possible, no stuck sheds (will be removed immediately if not a perfect shed), no crap in there cages, fresh bedding, etc... But unless we are working towards stopping the importation of Balls, then I think we are doing this much more for us than them! I love seeing the new morphs pop-out and I am excited to do this year after year! But... I occasionly think what if someone decided to breed humans like this and my ARS racks start to look like little jail cells and remind me of Neo climbing out of his "wombsack" in the Matrix!:rofl:
Finally,
Lady Ohhh,
What is your opinion on this? Why are you trying to be the debate moderator without giving your opinion? Whats wrong with you?;)
Gotta love Spiders!!!!!!!
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/12167KBMFBPN.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by karbogast

I just wish the spider people would open their minds and realize that our reasons for not liking them are just as valid.

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It doesn't seem to me like there are closed minded "spider people" challenging the validity of anyones reasons for not liking spiders in this thread ... it just appears that the intensity with which you (and some others on the thread) express your issues with spiders (as well as with Kevin) maybe puts people that do like spiders (and may or may not be friends with Kevin) a little bit on the defensive? Or I could be wrong, it happens more often than not with me. ;)

I've yet to meet anyone that's truly passionate about spiders that would have any problems at all with others that choose not to work with spiders as long as the feelings were mutual.

This quote came to mind as I was re-reading the thread, I thought that it was appropriate no matter which side of the issue you're on -

"We confide in our strength, without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it." - Thomas Jefferson

Just my observation for whatever it's worth (which is really not all that much if anything).

-adam

Damn after reading this thread i'm not to sure now about my plan, i'm a young breeder just starting and purchased a spider female who has a small little wobble like a head bob when she's swallowing, and a little shake. Should i take her back to the breeder and ask for my money back or a different snake?:tears: I love spiders but don't want to get stuck with this defect

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Azriel01

Damn after reading this thread i'm not to sure now about my plan, i'm a young breeder just starting and purchased a spider female who has a small little wobble like a head bob when she's swallowing, and a little shake. Should i take her back to the breeder and ask for my money back or a different snake?:tears: I love spiders but don't want to get stuck with this defect

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First I hate to hear people call it a defect after all every morph made presents a defect of some kind that's what makes them different than a normal.

You need to ask yourself some questions.

1: Does the issue not bother you enough to keep the animal regardless of what a few people might think?

2: Do you have enough love for the animals to except them they way they are.

These things are questions every breeder or keeper has to ask themselves.

I think it's possible for the spider wobble to be reduced through selective breeding, over time, but I am in the camp that feels this is part and parcel of the spider gene--it's not a defect IN the spider, line, it IS the spider gene.

I also personally don't think it's neurological--I think it's more likely to be an inner ear problem--IE, these animals are 'waltzing mice'.

I have a spider with a minor wobble--he tilts his head very slightly to the side as he crawls, and shows an unsteadiness of movement--just an oddness in the way he moves, a shakiness and motions you don't see as often in other snakes. He gobbles f/t without issue every time, but may miss 2 or 3 times on his way to grabbing it. He never spins, and he rights himself when flipped. I'm breeding him this season. I'll keep any female offspring that appear to be wobble-free, or have very minor wobbles, and sell the rest. I don't consider him to be defective, because his wobble is inconsequential--he's living a perfectly good life. Waltzing mice seem far more impaired, and people breed those as well.
However, if I get a bunch of train wrecks in the clutch, then he'll be retired immediately.

I don't believe in spider lines that never produce wobbles. I very frankly do not believe a long enough time has passed to breed the trait down to the level where it's NEVER noticeable. I do think a lot of folks who have 'non-spinning spiders' aren't sure what to look for to identify a very minor wobble.

It's also very clearly NOTHING to do with inbreeding. Spiders are virtually never inbred. They are almost always produced by breeding them to unrelated normal or other morph snakes. The consistancty with which it turns up in spider lines strongly suggests it's part of the spider gene itself.

I think caramel albinos are very beautiful--the kinking issue is unfortunate. I think I would like to try working with them, and see just how often it actually manifests. If a severely kinked animal is only produced every once in a blue moon, that's more acceptable than having one in every clutch.

I also think that you are not going to solve any of these problems by 'never breeding an animal that has that trait show up in its offspring ever again'. You're not going to find an animal like that until all the work is DONE--that will be a long time down the road. Selecting the least affected animals as breeding stock, and selecting the ones that produce the smallest number of affected offspring, may make the goal attainable.
But don't be surprised if a spider with a minor wobble produces fewer wobble offspring than a spider with no wobble. That's a distinct possibility when dealing with an issue like this, and everything has to be carefully mapped.

I think the folks claiming 'no-wobbles' or 'no kinking' in their line of spiders or caramels are being fairly dishonest. "Low incidence of wobbles in this line" would be a lot more honest.
Folks, your 'non-wobbling' spider was bred from a spider that wobbled. The first spider wobbled. It's in there, and you cannot guarantee it will never show up again.

If 50% or more of all caramels were severely kinked and had to be put down, that would be entirely unacceptable, no matter how pretty they were. If 50% of all spiders were train-wrecks, likewise--that's unacceptable, it's too many deformed animals that need to be euthanized to justify continuing the line. As things stand though, they aren't actually THAT bad.

Womas are perfectly fine--I wouldn't breed them for Pearls.

If some morph turns up where a sizeable percentage of the babies are hatched with their insides on their outside, their faces so deformed that they can't eat, or other obvious congenital problems, I wouldn't breed them.

I don't think the super-cinnie 'duck' faces count as a problem. It looks a little strange to us, but it doesn't affect the animal at all.

I wouldn't breed English bulldogs. Their deformed faces cause sinus problems.

You can't breed 2 short-tailed manx cats together--don't breed 2 Woma balls together. Not a problem.

I don't know of any morphs currently on the market that have such severe problems that (in my opinion) they shouldn't be bred at all. The ones that have minor ongoing problems should be bred selectively to get rid of those problems over time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

It doesn't seem to me like there are closed minded "spider people" challenging the validity of anyones reasons for not liking spiders in this thread ... it just appears that the intensity with which you (and some others on the thread) express your issues with spiders (as well as with Kevin) maybe puts people that do like spiders (and may or may not be friends with Kevin) a little bit on the defensive? Or I could be wrong, it happens more often than not with me. ;)

I've yet to meet anyone that's truly passionate about spiders that would have any problems at all with others that choose not to work with spiders as long as the feelings were mutual.

This quote came to mind as I was re-reading the thread, I thought that it was appropriate no matter which side of the issue you're on -

"We confide in our strength, without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it." - Thomas Jefferson

Just my observation for whatever it's worth (which is really not all that much if anything).

-adam

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That is a great quote from TJ, this country sure could use a leader like him these days.

Honestly I don't know how to be any more polite and respectful than I have been during this debate. What you call intensity, I call passion and a true enjoyment of a good debate and I am just having fun. I was warned that if I criticised, Kevin and his spiders that there would be heck to pay. But I don't back down to anyone and that is just who I am.

Have you not read in my posts how even though I choose not to work with spider anymore that I have no problem with those that do?

Do I feel spiders, and now after reading Toms story caramels, should be sold with a disclaimer or some type of up front info about the possible side effects? Yes, as it seems to be the most honest thing to do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by karbogast

Honestly I don't know how to be any more polite and respectful than I have been during this debate.

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I agree and I never for a second thought otherwise ... one persons passion can easily come off to another as "intensity" when sitting on the opposite side of the fence ... just some food for thought from someone with a lot of passion that is often misconstrued.

I was not attempting to critique your posts or offend you in any way ... I was only responding to your statement referencing spider people and open minds ... it seemed to cast a very wide web and I hoped to show that not every "spider person" deserved to be caught in it and that some are just as passionate in what they believe as you are in what you believe. (sorry for the cheesy web bit, couldn't resist :D )

If I failed and came across the wrong way, I sincerely apologize.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

If I failed and came across the wrong way, I sincerely apologize.

-adam

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I wasn't offened, and I see how the "open minded" statment i made could have been taken wrong.

I never actually put my opinion out into this, but now I think I shall.

I have a spider, as you may know, who has no wobble apparent. The wobble itself (in almost all cases) does not effect the life of the snake as well as the quality of life. Wobble spiders tend to eat fine, drink fine, live fine, and breed fine. If there was a severe issue with the life of a spider that wobbled, I would personally have more problems with it then I do.

However, caramels I do not feel the same about. Because the caramel kink can affect the quality of life and could be painful or a reason for the animal to be put to sleep, I will avoid caramels in my breeding plans.

I agree with WingedWolf that this might not be a neurological problem, but an inner ear problem. If it was, would everyone still have the same opinions? :]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfpsion

I think the folks claiming 'no-wobbles' or 'no kinking' in their line of spiders or caramels are being fairly dishonest. "Low incidence of wobbles in this line" would be a lot more honest.

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I like this statement. When a breeder is asked, I think this should stay true. I noticed this very strongly with Bailey and Bailey, as when I asked them if my spider had any signs of showing wobbles, their reply was better than I could've asked for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tim Bailey

Jessica,
We have produced slightly over 30 Spiders since we started breeding them. My original male has no wobble that I have observed. I have produced a handful that have wobbled, but it generally goes away after 6 months of age. With that said, I have not seen any wobble in any of the Spiders that I have produced this year.

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He clearly told me, without trying to say that 'his line has no wobble' he was clear to say that there have been some wobbles produced, but generally seem to disappear.
His word held true, as my spider has no visible wobble that I have seen thus far. I think when asked about a wobble with a breeder, the breeder should be clear that there is a possibility of wobble from any line, even if his has not shown any signs of any.

:gj: