Kid slaps mom

great comment freakie..

To edit the last part of my post previous.. the behavior is learned, not nessesarily meaning the parents taught them that but the child learned it was acceptable, allowed, exc.. not nessesarily the only way a child learns to hit is by watching it happen. Both scenarios are possible its all in the way its handled.

My gf and i have thie argument of spanking our kids once we have them someday and she is totally against it but i think that kid needs some kind of discipline. I grew up getting spanked and i knew i better not act up or dad was gonna be there and not in a happy mood.

Does that kid not have a father figure around or what?

Wow, yea i'd smack the crap out of that kid. I was hit when i was younger if i stepped out of line and this was when i lived in Mexico so anything goes haha in the middle of the street if you're behaving bad you know what's comin. Parents need to start smackin their kids, some kids don't need it but others do and time out does not work. just my .02 cents

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Originally Posted by Lucero87

Parents need to start smackin their kids, some kids don't need it but others do and time out does not work. just my .02 cents

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OK, do you have children? Time outs do work.. if it didnt why do so many parents still use that method? When a child is too old for "time-outs" then grounding can take effect. As I said before, I do not agree with spanking much less smacking!

Both sides need aid... the mother and the son.

Im glad the mother at least seeked help, I hope both of them can live a happier life. It takes a big person to be able to say "things are out of control" I feel badly about their whole situation. As a mother I cant imagine loosing a child and then still having to be there as a good mother to my living child... especially considering she openly said she favored the girl.

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

AMEN! I went to jail for correcting one of my kids in front of a police mang.. Verbally not physicully (sp??).. Sucked!

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Really ?

Well, I think this explains a lot...

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Originally Posted by AshleyB

OK, do you have children? Time outs do work.. if it didnt why do so many parents still use that method? When a child is too old for "time-outs" then grounding can take effect. As I said before, I do not agree with spanking much less smacking!

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I can attest that time outs do NOT work. I am a shining example of complete and utter refusal to obey authority until I was spanked and sent to my room balling my eyes out. Even then, I was definitely putting up a fight!

My parents spanked me for a long time until I was big enough that it hurt them more than me. Then they moved to the wooden spoon for beatin my butt. In the meantime, they removed my bedroom door, took ALL of my things away except for my dresser and bed. I still refused to "obey".

I was grounded once for something like 4 months. Yea... good lot that did!!

Now, I never hit my parents, but I know I made parenting VERY hard on them. If I ever took it too far, I knew Dad was gonna come and scare the :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r: outta me when he got home. Dad was the last resort you ever wanted to go to.

Trust me, with some kids like me, time outs aint nothing!! :gj:

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My parents spanked me for a long time until I was big enough that it hurt them more than me. Then they moved to the wooden spoon for beatin my butt.

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Been there done that and fly swatters

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In the meantime, they removed my bedroom door, took ALL of my things away except for my dresser and bed. I still refused to "obey".

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Yep they even put my box spring and bed on the floor and left me with bare walls and a bed and desk for homework.

Wow it amazes me how many of you can be stuck in the darkage. There are *many* other ways to discipline your children that do NOT involve abuse! I don't care if *you* turned out ok and your parents beat you, that doesn't make it right. Hitting another human being, your child or not, is STILL abuse. I was spanked as a child...and grew up in a heavily alcoholic environment and I turned out ok, so does that make alcoholism ok? No it does not. Just because you *turn out ok* doesnt mean the next child will.

To me, parents who hit their children aren't ready to have those children. There are parenting classes that teach you how to handle difficult situations and raise your children in a proper SAFE manner. Parents that hit, IMO and experience do so because they can't control their anger and frustration. Just because a child does something wrong or makes you mad gives you no reason OR *right* to hit them.

I loose any and all respect for those who think spanking their children is the *right* thing to do...to me its just as bad as someone grabbing their dog and rubbing its nose in a puddle of urine...........Useless barbaric behavior!

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Originally Posted by equis8

Wow it amazes me how many of you can be stuck in the darkage. There are *many* other ways to discipline your children that do NOT involve abuse! I don't care if *you* turned out ok and your parents beat you, that doesn't make it right. Hitting another human being, your child or not, is STILL abuse. I was spanked as a child...and grew up in a heavily alcoholic environment and I turned out ok, so does that make alcoholism ok? No it does not. Just because you *turn out ok* doesnt mean the next child will.

To me, parents who hit their children aren't ready to have those children. There are parenting classes that teach you how to handle difficult situations and raise your children in a proper SAFE manner. Parents that hit, IMO and experience do so because they can't control their anger and frustration. Just because a child does something wrong or makes you mad gives you no reason OR *right* to hit them.

I loose any and all respect for those who think spanking their children is the *right* thing to do...to me its just as bad as someone grabbing their dog and rubbing its nose in a puddle of urine...........Useless barbaric behavior!

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I agree totally.

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Originally Posted by equis8

Wow it amazes me how many of you can be stuck in the darkage. There are *many* other ways to discipline your children that do NOT involve abuse! I don't care if *you* turned out ok and your parents beat you, that doesn't make it right. Hitting another human being, your child or not, is STILL abuse. I was spanked as a child...and grew up in a heavily alcoholic environment and I turned out ok, so does that make alcoholism ok? No it does not. Just because you *turn out ok* doesnt mean the next child will.

To me, parents who hit their children aren't ready to have those children. There are parenting classes that teach you how to handle difficult situations and raise your children in a proper SAFE manner. Parents that hit, IMO and experience do so because they can't control their anger and frustration. Just because a child does something wrong or makes you mad gives you no reason OR *right* to hit them.

I loose any and all respect for those who think spanking their children is the *right* thing to do...to me its just as bad as someone grabbing their dog and rubbing its nose in a puddle of urine...........Useless barbaric behavior!

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And again, I ask, what do you do to those kids like me that are unaffected by simply time outs and groundings or taking things away??

Take me to a therapist? Take everything away from me? How would you deal with me? I bet you not very easily....

The ONLY thing that kept me in line was the VERY real threat of worse to come.

I KNOW for a fact, given my nature, had my parents given me an inch, I would have taken 5 feet. I have that personality and never give in to idle threats or "talking things out".

For those very strong personality kids like me, what do you do? I would walk all over you if given the chance....

Not trying to sound like a :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:, but I do know myself, and I know had my parents been less strict in any way, I would have been in trouble a long time ago.

Yes, I would have taken you to individual counseling and would have gone with you to family counseling. Beating each other up is really not helpful in the short run or the long run. Hasn't our species evolved even a little?

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Originally Posted by starmom

Yes, I would have taken you to individual counseling and would have gone with you to family counseling. Beating each other up is really not helpful in the short run or the long run. Hasn't our species evolved even a little?

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Lol, I wasn't beaten up, I was spanked. Never even left a bruise, but a hurtin that taught me to not do it again. Sometimes kids need spankins IMO.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gone to the therapy sessions unless you knocked me out, hog tied me, and strapped me to the chair....

I don't really like doing things against my will! :8:

Nothing against your method McKinsey, but I tell you this, a very strict upbringing with quick and harsh punishment did me more good than I can say. There was no reasoning with me. None at all.... I was a very strong willed kid.

Still have some of that left today. :)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Lol, I wasn't beaten up, I was spanked. Never even left a bruise, but a hurtin that taught me to not do it again. Sometimes kids need spankins IMO.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gone to the therapy sessions unless you knocked me out, hog tied me, and strapped me to the chair....

I don't really like doing things against my will! :8:

Nothing against your method McKinsey, but I tell you this, a very strict upbringing with quick and harsh punishment did me more good than I can say. There was no reasoning with me. None at all.... I was a very strong willed kid.

Still have some of that left today. :)

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Chores. I really believe in chores. People are too tired at the end of a day to cause much trouble. Chores saved a couple of my kids. Chores are good.
Reasoning with kids whose brains aren't even fully developed is not something I am in favor of. I am mom- I don't run a democracy ;)
The kids will listen or we'll do chores together and then they'll listen. If they don't want to do chores? They get to; I don't care if it takes me all day to get the kid doing the chore- we'll work together through the night.
Parenting takes time, a lot of time, and attention. Hitting, to me, is an unacceptable short-cut and a power trip. I don't like it.

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Originally Posted by starmom

Chores. I really believe in chores. People are too tired at the end of a day to cause much trouble. Chores saved a couple of my kids. Chores are good.
Reasoning with kids whose brains aren't even fully developed is not something I am in favor of. I am mom- I don't run a democracy ;)
The kids will listen or we'll do chores together and then they'll listen. If they don't want to do chores? They get to; I don't care if it takes me all day to get the kid doing the chore- we'll work together through the night.
Parenting takes time, a lot of time, and attention. Hitting, to me, is an unacceptable short-cut and a power trip. I don't like it.

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Yes chores do really help for a lot of resentment haha. J/k!!:please: I think I did a lot of chores. Nothing like working on a farm, but I do know how to clean a thing or two!

It's actually been passed on to me in my own obsessive way. I blow off steam by cleaning.... hrmm.. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Yes chores do really help for a lot of resentment haha. J/k!!:please: I think I did a lot of chores. Nothing like working on a farm, but I do know how to clean a thing or two!

It's actually been passed on to me in my own obsessive way. I blow off steam by cleaning.... hrmm.. :rolleyes:

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Very funny about cleaning to blow off steam- my kids do too!!
They don't and didn't resent the chores because we would do them together...that was the important part: get them out of the defiant space and into a space of physical labor so we could talk and chill while working.
You sound like you were a firecracker! Poor parents! :8:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

And again, I ask, what do you do to those kids like me that are unaffected by simply time outs and groundings or taking things away??

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How about making you responsible for your actions? I'm not going to keep going over why it is wrong. Just because you were a hard kid...you only see *your* perspective. There are ways to be very strict with a child and NOT hit them. I was a stubborn child too, except for my parents hitting/spanking me NEVER worked. It made me more defiant and even MORE stubborn. Just ask my dad. I brought him to tears because no matter much he spanked me and put me in the corner, I would *not* do what he wanted, and it wasnt always over anything bad...just cleaning my room would become a battleground between my parents and me.

So you want an example of how to handle a stubborn child? Here is one:
My stepsister is probably one of the worst children i've ever met.....(she's about 8 years younger than me, so I was able to see first hand how her behavior could be modified without hitting and spanking, thats the *easy* way out!)

She was kicked off the school bus for swearing and being a bully....And she had been warned, that if she got kicked off the school bus, she would have to walk to school. (she was 12 at the time) So sure enough, the next morning my mom got her ready for school, and drove the car behind her, every step of the 2 miles it took for her to go to school. It took her about 4 hours to do it. She kept throwing tantrums and being a total twit...yet she made it to school that day, and the next.. (she was suspended for a couple of days)....She never got kicked off the bus again. Was she instantly *cured* of her being a stubborn child? NO, were there many MANY other things that she did to act out...YES! and they were all handled in similar fashion. She had to earn every single privelege, from going outside to play, talking to her friends on the phone. Anything and everything that was important in her little world, she had to earn.

I agree not all personalities of children are easy to raise, but it still doesnt mean beating them is the only option to keep them in line.

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Originally Posted by starmom

Very funny about cleaning to blow off steam- my kids do too!!
They don't and didn't resent the chores because we would do them together...that was the important part: get them out of the defiant space and into a space of physical labor so we could talk and chill while working.
You sound like you were a firecracker! Poor parents! :8:

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Poor everybody actually! Lordy, I was the kid that the teachers called wild woman, the one that went through quite a few babysitters... Very independent I call it. :D ;)

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Originally Posted by equis8

How about making you responsible for your actions? I'm not going to keep going over why it is wrong. Just because you were a hard kid...you only see *your* perspective. There are ways to be very strict with a child and NOT hit them.

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I was definitely held accountable for every action I ever did. Strict parents don't give an inch!

You think it's wrong, I don't. Simple as that. I don't think spanking is a real beating like you make it come across.

Maybe yours was more severe? I don't know. I never had nothing wrong besides a red bottom for a few minutes. It stung, but it certainly kept me in line.

That's what I'm saying. I can't think of a time when I didn't pop right back into line and not do what I was told after a spanking.

I have to say, spankin worked on my behind!

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Originally Posted by equis8

to me its just as bad as someone grabbing their dog and rubbing its nose in a puddle of urine...........Useless barbaric behavior!

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Wait a minute, you mean 40 years and 20 dogs later THIS doesn't work.

Well heck, that's a mess a wasted nose rubbing that housebroke all those mutts.

By the way, what have you got against barbarians? Some of us are quite interesting.

Also, there is a LARGE difference between beating a child and swatting one to get its attention.

I've never beat my kids but they've had hand prints on their bottoms that got them listening right quick like.

Hmmmmm, it must have worked too. I can't recall swatting them past the age of about 6, and then it's a maybe.

Physical discipline alone will never change anything, but it is not in and of itself abuse. It's all in how and why it is applied.

For someone to come and tell me I'm a child abuser and wrong seems a bit on the high handed side and I'll have to say flat out to those of you who think so that YOU are wrong.

I've got living proof. Honor students. Varsity sports players. Honest good hearted kids. None have ever been in trouble for being physically abusive to anyone.

Kids I'm proud to tell any and all that they're mine.

Summa y'all are a tad too full a yourselves.

I hesitated a little bit as regards getting into this discussion, because I come from a very different culture of a different continent, so my I have nothing to do with your reality.
But...I´ll chime in nonetheless.

To me, a situation like this is totally unacceptable. Period.

Family and respect for the elderly means a lot in Southern Europe ("God, Honour and Family").
I lived with my parents, grandparents and even great-grandparents until I got married (or they died). It is normal here to live with your parents until you get married or start living with someone. Later on, when one of your parents dies, the other one moves in with you. There is no "necessarily moving out when you go to College" tradition. Unless you go to College to a city very far away from home. Even in those cases, you go home for the weekends.

So..it´s different.

I don´t remember ever raising my voice to my father. When I disagreed with him or with my mother (a lot…) it was natural to do it in a respectful manner. I think/hope my kids (3) don´t even imagine raising their voices against me. I was slapped a few times when I was a kid when I crossed the border of respect and do the same to my kids, when that happens.
Call me pre-historic if you want, but I find it not only acceptable but natural. At least, I find it more natural then getting arrested because you slapped your kid in public. That, I find extremely "fundamentalistic" (sp.?). And the world has enough fundamentalisms already.

Just my way of seeing things. Hope nobody feels disrespected by it

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You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Wilomn again.

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How you raised your children is how I was raised, and I think I've grown into a fairly decent adult.:P

I was never spanked beyond the age of 6, because I knew better, and I quickly learned right/wrong. But they did not only tell me what I was doing wrong, they rewarded me for being good.

Looking back I know my dad wasn't being abusive, I love the man and respect him for molding me into who I am.

Nothing wrong with a little discipline. There is a difference between beating your kids and a swat on the bottom for punishment.

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Originally Posted by jknudson

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You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Wilomn again.

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How you raised your children is how I was raised, and I think I've grown into a fairly decent adult.:P

I was never spanked beyond the age of 6, because I knew better, and I quickly learned right/wrong. But they did not only tell me what I was doing wrong, they rewarded me for being good.

Looking back I know my dad wasn't being abusive, I love the man and respect him for molding me into who I am.

Nothing wrong with a little discipline. There is a difference between beating your kids and a swat on the bottom for punishment.

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Ditto that! :gj:

What a little Bastard! :colbert: No reason for him to slap his Mom... I'm sure the doctor already did that when he came out.
OH!.... couldnt resist!

Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow

Good posts starmom, equis8-- a couple others that I can't remember. I appreciate your thoughts on respectfulness and thoughtfulness in parenting. And I agree!! :D

I think everyone agrees that the boy should not have hit his mom. I hope that the family is able to find their way through all of this, especially now that they are fodder for Dr Phil and his sensationalist psychology. Bleah.

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Originally Posted by starmom

I also have a 'normal' son; not het for anything!

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A sense of humor can take you so far. :)

[QUOTE=starmom;798561]and Dr. Phil is an idiot.[QUOTE]

I loathe reality TV, I think people like Dr. Phil are boil sucking parasites. I blame Saint OPRAH(!) for unleashing this fool on the world. This weekend I think I will fly to Chicago and vandalize the offices of "O" (get over yourself Oprah).

That sad-sack of a human being exploits and patronizes families that are in crisis.

I do not watch TV, but when I was home at my mom's house awhile back she was deeply glued to the "heroin twins" saga.... *retch* *blech* *gag*.

I hated him to begin with, but seeing him add time lapse photography to show a woman (that was coming down, going through detox, and absolutely ravaged by her condition) what "Junkie Face" looked like long term... complete with missing teeth and thinned hair... was probably the lowest I had seen TV sink to.

But that is today's society, if you are willing to take your dysfunction on TV then you are worthy of help and support.

As much as I would like to feel for a family like this, they have agency and perhaps should spend a few minutes of each day exercising it.

Bruce

Wow, a lot got said on this thread while I was busy elsewhere today! Lots of things I want to comment on, but I'm going to start with this:

Connie, you say you were a very strong willed child, and were unaffected by such things as time outs, and you refused to obey authority until you were spanked. You also say you were never beaten up, and it never left a bruise.

I'm glad it worked out ok for you. And I don't think there is anything wrong with a spanking that doesn't leave a bruise, in and of itself. Some things work for some kids, and other things work for others. So I think the most important thing is to figure out what works for your kid. And it sounds like your parents figured it out with you.

With exceptionally difficult children, any sort of punishment often turns into something that resembles the nuclear arms race... it just keeps escalating. So when taking away one toy doesn't work, you take away more and more until they have nothing but a mattress in their room. When a brief time out doesn't work, it gets longer until they are grounded for 4 months.

The problem with spankings or other physical punishments, such as another old favorite, going to bed without dinner, is where do you go from there when they don't work? If the only tool a parent has is to resort to this sort of stuff, then what about the even stronger willed child who is not affected by a spanking any more than you were by time outs? Do you hit them hard enough to bruise? If/when that doesn't work, do you hit them hard enough to break bones? If missing one meal doesn't bring them in line, do you withhold food for a whole day? a week?

McKinsey and a few others have mentioned things such as chores and other physical labor as an alternative to spankings. This will often work with children who don't respond to time outs/grounding or just being talked to. It still reaches that physical discomfort spot that seems to need to be pushed on some kids. The example of having to walk to school when kicked off the school bus is another great one. Exercise can also push that button. Physical punishments, which do work very well with some kids, do not have to be spankings.

Having worked with at risk kids for a long time I'll share some of my thoughts on the video. I don't think this snippet is a reflection of how these discussions with mom generally go. I think she was on her best behavior for the camera. I guess I didn't really feel like she validating what he was saying. She was explaining but never really said yeah I probably elbowed you harder than I meant and I am sorry. If kids never hear us apologize or admit mistakes they never will. That kid knew mom was showing for the camera so he let it all out. Watch the way he reacts when he slapped her. He expected it to come right back but took the chance. He also keeps repeating how do you feel which tells me mom has taken that action to him before as well as telling him to shut up etc... I truely wouldn't even consider this kid hardcore. I'll make some assumptions (I know) but having your sister die and mom not really listening to you and possibly taking her grief out on you (not intentionally) can make a kid very frustrated and start acting up. To be honest the elbow issue wasn't really the issue it was just the spark that lit the fire. Some may think getting your "feelings" out is a waste of time but his kid has a lot to say and unload. Keeping those feelings in because noone is listening is just like a pressure cooker and when he finally has stuffed enough he is going to blow with no control. The talking is relieve some of the pressure and hopefully start emptying it out. It would be very difficult for mom to process with this kid about his behaviors if she is exhibiting the same behaviors. If she tried without admitting she has made mistakes all that is going to happen is he is going to resent her and think her a liar and hypocrite. I think if this mom and son had some good family therapy (some therapist are very bad) they would end up just fine but both are going to have to change behaviors and communicate much better.

Each child responds to different ways of child rearing etc... What works for one may not work for another. Some things that generally help almost all though is consistency. Stay consistent and follow through. Don't make threats you have no intention of following through with. Hold them accountable for thier behaviors. Most kids (I'm talking under 13) will tell you want punishments work best if asked when you aren't punishing them. Communication and explaining why their behaviors are unacceptable and having them explain it. There are a lot of techniques that one could use but getting them to explain what they did wrong why it was wrong and how they could have done things differently helps alot. As far as timeouts go they can be very effective if you stick with it and process with them afterwards when they are "wore" out. Some take longer than others but younger kids if they are raised with timeouts generally accept them. There is an age where you are wasting your time as they are too old for timeouts. Trying timeouts with a 13 who has never had them and is ODD seldom is effective. Let them experience natural consequences for their behaviors. I can't tell you how many parents bail their kids out of consequences or just don't follow through with them. I could ramble on but will leave it at this. Most troubled kids I have worked with I would guess 90% of their problem was home enviroment. Those with true mental illnesses such as bi-polor, autism, manic depression, severe depression etc... need different treatments that may require meds. I don't necessarily see ADHD or ODD as mental illnesses although I have had a select few that were so ADHD that they required meds. One quick thing on meds. If the meds are making them zombies or overall changing their personalities then they need to try something else. The core personality shouldn't be effected. Some of our severe ADHD kids that got the right meds weren't inactive they were just more able to control themselves. Meaning they were able to clear their head and study without their minds racing. When outside they were still very active and "hyper" but in much more control.

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Originally Posted by kc261

...McKinsey and a few others have mentioned things such as chores and other physical labor as an alternative to spankings. This will often work with children who don't respond to time outs/grounding or just being talked to. It still reaches that physical discomfort spot that seems to need to be pushed on some kids. The example of having to walk to school when kicked off the school bus is another great one. Exercise can also push that button. Physical punishments, which do work very well with some kids, do not have to be spankings.

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I'm not into physical punishment at all. I am bigger and stronger than a kid and so I consider it to be a power trip and I also consider it to be a signal that I am out of control of the situation. I really just don't care for physical harm and I include 'spankings' in this category. I don't feel it is okay to hit each other in the name of 'teaching a lesson'. I think it teaches a kid that hitting is okay or kids get the message that they 'won' because the parent lost control and then parent often times ends up apologizing. It's just weird.

Around our homestead doing chores wasn't physical punishment and I did the chores with them. Doing the chores needed to be done regardless; and when one of my kids thought that being oppositional was a great idea and wouldn't or couldn't back down, the chores got done THEN. It was a great way to release the energy and to focus on something other than the negativity that was going on and escalating into confrontational stuff.

Different strokes for different folks, imo. People have been raising kids since, well, a long time ago :) Even mother animals (lions, horses, dogs) will physically reprimend their babies when they get out of line. If a swat on the behind makes your kid pay attention to you and it works, so be it. If you need to quickly swat your kid;s hand to prevent him from knocking a store display over.. it is just ludicrous to me for people to call that abuse. It is logical and in the long run much better than the consequences for kid, mom, dad, and store!
My issue is with actual child abuse. Real beatings that leave bruises, mental and physical scarring. I know of several friends of mine that endured Brutal physical abuse as kids and had to watch their moms get it too from their fathers. (I also know a man who endured abuse from a longterm girlfriend; I am by NO means saying that women can't be abusive as well.) To me, there is no reason why a kid should ever be beaten this strongly and violently. A quick swat to the butt, or a smack in the hand to deter them from, say, grabbing a hot kettle.. that is a far cry from what my one friend underwent. If she so much as made a sound, her stepfather beat her badly. She to this day, will NOT sneeze out loud; she stifles it to her own discomfort; that saddens me.
And no; I have no kids. But I do have a stepdaughter.. and well, I feel qualified posting here because, well, not so long ago I was a kid too. I only got hit as a last resort, and I knew that the possibility was there because I had gotten it before! So I knew when to back off of things and listen to an adult. My grandma and her wooden spoon never left horrible, counseling-inducing, suicide-causing trauma to me..

A lot of good points brought up in this thread; however, I think the people that are "pro- spanking" and the ones that are "anti-spanking" are never really going to see eye to eye. In my college speech class a debate was started over this issue, and it got pretty heated. When you're telling somebody that they're basically a bad parent, things can get pretty heated.

We all have different cultures, and different upbringings, and I don't think one person should say another person and their culture is "wrong" or "barbaric". If you lose respect for someone because of the way they do things, well that's too bad. Everybody's entitled to raise a child how they see fit as long as they're concerned about the child's best interest. But to say that they're barbaric.. I think that's just over the top.

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Originally Posted by Jae iLL

A lot of good points brought up in this thread; however, I think the people that are "pro- spanking" and the ones that are "anti-spanking" are never really going to see eye to eye. In my college speech class a debate was started over this issue, and it got pretty heated. When you're telling somebody that they're basically a bad parent, things can get pretty heated.

We all have different cultures, and different upbringings, and I don't think one person should say another person and their culture is "wrong" or "barbaric". If you lose respect for someone because of the way they do things, well that's too bad. Everybody's entitled to raise a child how they see fit as long as they're concerned about the child's best interest. But to say that they're barbaric.. I think that's just over the top.

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I agree that pro vs anti spanking people will have a hard time seeing eye to eye. However, I disagree that cultural diversity or upbringing justifies raising kids in an unhealthy way. Using that argument, we can say that the religious groups that believe that marrying a twelve year old girl to a forty year old man is ok or that the cultures that practice genital mutilation of young girls is ok or that cultures that refuse to educate girls are ok or any number of practices that are not, in fact, ok or healthy or helpful or good. We have to look at spanking and physical punishment without backing away from it because we don't wish to offend those who disagree.

I believe that spanking a child or physically hurting a child does not help them grow or learn what I want them to learn. You can change behavior with physical punishment and with pain, but that does not mean it is helpful longterm. What does spanking really teach?

Let's use the example of the kid who slapped his mom. Say she chose to discipline him by whacking him right across the face after he slapped her. She *might* have changed his behavior. He will at least think twice about slapping his mom again. But what has he learned? He has learned that hitting his mom results in being hit back. He has learned that hitting is an effective and appropriate tool for controlling other people' behavior.

What would *I* want him to learn? I would want to teach him how to communicate effectively and problem solve withOUT using physical violence. I would want to teach him to respect his mother. I would want to teach him some self control. I do not think smacking him would accomplish all of those goals and it would accomplish some other things that I really really do not want to teach my kids.

How would I deal with this? First of all, it would only happen once. I would not make it possible for him to smack me again. I would be SURE to catch his hand before it connected and block a slap. He cannot be allowed to repeat that behavior-- practice makes perfect, yknow? Then, after the first slap, I would seperate him for a cooling off. He would go somewhere and sit alone until *I* cooled off and until he was able to talk without freaking out. Then, I'd take him for a walk or I'd take him outside to help check fences or something. We WOULD talk. He would receive some sort of restriction for crossing that line. If it was a pattern, he'd be at a doctor's or counselor's. This sounds namby pamby but my resolve is strong-- I would continue to address this and prevent more by attention and WORK. It's not soemthing you can fix fast.

So, lots of words here, but I really felt the need to address this post, particularly the part I bolded. We are not entiteled to raise our kids any way we see fit even if we have their best interest at heart. Lots of things are not allowed and not ok. As parents we MUST think about exactly what we are teaching them. Know that if you use spanking or hitting or whacking or anything similar, you are teaching much much more than a simple deterring of bad behavior. You are teaching and propagating the message that hitting is a good solution to problems and that bigger people and people in power can and should hit to keep order and lots lots more.

So even if all 'spankers' won't hear me or see eye to eye with me, I hope some spankers will think about exactly what they are teaching and maybe come up with some creative solutions to parenting.

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Originally Posted by ZinniaZ

He has learned that hitting is an effective and appropriate tool for controlling other people' behavior.

What would *I* want him to learn? I would want to teach him how to communicate effectively and problem solve withOUT using physical violence. I would want to teach him to respect his mother. I would want to teach him some self control. I do not think smacking him would accomplish all of those goals and it would accomplish some other things that I really really do not want to teach my kids.

How would I deal with this? First of all, it would only happen once. I would not make it possible for him to smack me again. I would be SURE to catch his hand before it connected and block a slap.

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No insult intended here.

Have you ever worked with problem children, those who are most prone to be physical?

Good luck on the only getting it once you'll catch it before it lands.

Trust is part of what you seem to be using and if you're truly going to trust you may not see something coming.

Anyway, that's a very small thing.

There is also a difference between a swatter and a spanker. I figure a spanking is a minimum of three whacks and could go on for a great many more. My poor parents, I used to laugh, which did not help my situation, but , well, that was long ago.

I swatted my kids, a good swift one to the flesh of the bottom when I felt they needed it. It was seldom, but did happen on occasion. I too believe that simply beating a child only makes the kid worse.

However, how many times did you take a corner too fast while riding your bicycle before you learned how fast was safe? That skinned knee and bloody palm, which hurt, taught you a good lesson. Hopefully you weren't a daredevil and it only took once or twice, when you first started this NEW endevor (and kids learn how to deal with emotions with no guidebooks. things come up they've never felt before and right then and there, for the first time, they have to deal with it. think about that for a minute) for you to learn that certain physical actions on your part; ie going to fast on your bicycle around that corner, lead to certain physical reactions; ie falling down and getting hurt.

We DO learn from physical stimulation. It all depends on how and why it is applied. Said stimulation should not be applied often. Unless there is a defect in the child, there should be no need for it other than on a rare occasion.

I'll tell you an amusing thing, well amusing to me anyway.

When my kids were little, long ago it now seems, my son went through a phase where he was punching his sister. Generally it was on the shoulder but it was hard enough to hurt her. He's a couple years older and was a lot bigger than her at the time.

I warned him a few times that it needed to stop. There were a timeout or three and if I recall, and I may not be recalling correctly here, I even swatted him once or twice.

None of it worked.

One saturday morning he hit her pretty hard. Shes standing there in pain and he's standing there being a 6 year old smartass.

So I punched him in the shoulder. I tried to gage how hard he hit his sister, I too had been 6 at one time and so I figured I should have some angle on this, and hit him that hard.

His eyes got big and round, his mouth started to pucker up as it was painful, and I then said to him," hit your sister again and I'll hit you just the same as you do her."

He never hit her again.

As with almost all siblings they have had their ins and outs.

They are now excellent friends. They stick up for each other, joke with each other, friends and family, and are pretty decent people, pretty much how I hoped they would be.

Yes I have worked with problem kids.

And yes, people DO learn from pain/ physical punishment. The question is-- WHAT do they learn? Often the physical punishment will stop the behavior but it teaches other lessons that are not so good and it does not teach skills that replace hitting.

I think the mom has alot to do with that. My parents taught us at very young ages crap like that would not be tolerated.

I think that we need to remember that this family is reacting to the death of the boy's sister, the mother's daughter.
Our culture does not teach healthy responses to death; on the contrary, we hide it away.
I don't think that we can comment on the rightness or wrongness of spanking (a nice word for what is usually hitting out of anger and loss of control by someone much larger) in this situation, but perhaps comment on how tragic it is that these people are put into the television spotlight and the boy is turned into a monster, the mother turned into Frankenstein, because of a sound byte put out on the internet, and presumably due to not having help to deal with profound grief and loss.

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Originally Posted by N4S

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kn18H3FKDV4

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BEAT his A$$, thats why bad kids grow up to be BAD PEOPLE~!

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Originally Posted by starmom

I think that we need to remember that this family is reacting to the death of the boy's sister, the mother's daughter.
Our culture does not teach healthy responses to death; on the contrary, we hide it away.
I don't think that we can comment on the rightness or wrongness of spanking (a nice word for what is usually hitting out of anger and loss of control by someone much larger) in this situation, but perhaps comment on how tragic it is that these people are put into the television spotlight and the boy is turned into a monster, the mother turned into Frankenstein, because of a sound byte put out on the internet, and presumably due to not having help to deal with profound grief and loss.

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You are right-- I am sorry to have participated in derailing this topic. It's easy to have a visceral response to the video and then get carried away arguing about discipline and kids today, etc, etc. I think you are very correct about this family and I feel bad that their problems have been dragged into the media spotlight for criticism and second guessing...