Lets talk lesser and butters

Nope :)

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Nope :)

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DARN FACES.
You should give us a hint. ;]

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Originally Posted by jknudson

To me, butters and lessers seem to be basically different lines of the same morph, similar to pastels. Sometimes they look different, and their supers look a fair bit different, but the genes react in a similar fashion.

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yep, gotta agree with that.

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Originally Posted by jknudson

To me, butters and lessers seem to be basically different lines of the same morph, similar to pastels. Sometimes they look different, and their supers look a fair bit different, but the genes react in a similar fashion.

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I also have to agree with you, but I also throwing this out there aswell. I think all three(Mojave,Butter, Lesser) are all the same morph with various lines.

The range is huge in coloration and pattern between Mojave, Butter, Lesser complex, but this is widely accepted in the pastel morph with various lines that all look very different. I have seen some screaming pastels, with some that I can barely tell is a pastel.

Not to mention the fact very few people can identify a Mojave, butter, or lesser with 100% certainty and get it correct. Also I have never gotten an answer on the breeding of Mojave X Lesser producing BEL's. To me thats the nail in the coffin.

What I think would be good for the snake community would be to just make them under one name and just go by quality, but I think there are too many people who would cry about losing tons of money form their high priced butters/ and some lessers.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Nope :)

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So whats the verdict?? Which is which??

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Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

I also have to agree with you, but I also throwing this out there aswell. I think all three(Mojave,Butter, Lesser) are all the same morph with various lines.

The range is huge in coloration and pattern between Mojave, Butter, Lesser complex, but this is widely accepted in the pastel morph with various lines that all look very different. I have seen some screaming pastels, with some that I can barely tell is a pastel.

Not to mention the fact very few people can identify a Mojave, butter, or lesser with 100% certainty and get it correct. Also I have never gotten an answer on the breeding of Mojave X Lesser producing BEL's. To me thats the nail in the coffin.

What I think would be good for the snake community would be to just make them under one name and just go by quality, but I think there are too many people who would cry about losing tons of money form their high priced butters/ and some lessers.

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Anyone can tell a mojave apart from a butter and lesser, its when it comes down to telling butters and lessers apart. To me, butters are less appealing, they get worse with age and lessers seem to keep their cool colors( BUt they both have their better/worse sides). If you cant tell a mojave apart from a lesser or butter, either you have one ugly lesser or butter or need new glasses:P

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Anyone can tell a mojave apart from a butter and lesser, its when it comes down to telling butters and lessers apart. To me, butters are less appealing, they get worse with age and lessers seem to keep their cool colors( BUt they both have their better/worse sides). If you cant tell a mojave apart from a lesser or butter, either you have one ugly lesser or butter or need new glasses:P

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There are various degrees of mojave and I doubt you could pick out a great looking mojave in a pile of lessers or butters. I still think its funny how nobody thinks that Lesser + Mojave producing Blue-eyed Leucistics is anything to take a look at :rolleyes:. Right in Kevin's book(page 198)

To me they are all the same and definitely in a few years they will be.

Ooo,

Can I have a go?

[random morph guesser]

http://satanswombat.googlepages.com/guess1.JPG

[/random morph guesser]

I can tell an albino from a normal about 50% of the time (and that's me improving). :D


dr del

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Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

There are various degrees of mojave and I doubt you could pick out a great looking mojave in a pile of lessers or butters. I still think its funny how nobody thinks that Lesser + Mojave producing Blue-eyed Leucistics is anything to take a look at :rolleyes:. Right in Kevin's book(page 198)

To me they are all the same and definitely in a few years they will be.

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So can a het vin russo, and it looks normal:rolleyes:

Everyone that has had a go at the picture has been right about the mojave. Maybe you should go put a picture of a mojave up to a lesser or butter to see?

Maybe in the future if you put a super nice mojave up to a super ugly lesser you could get them mixed up. I love mojaves, but they look nothing like the other two.

There are 3 basic categories to describe the relationship between two named single gene morphs (and I believe mojave, lesser, and butter have all proven they are single gene by keeping 50% odds through lots of outbreeding).

1. Different mutations of different genes. An example would be pastel and cinnamon. They make a cool combo (pewter) but breeding results like producing super pastel cinnamon and super cinnamon pastel prove they aren't the same gene.

2. Same mutation of the same gene. This one is a little harder to prove but it seems likely that say lemon pastel and Graziani pastel are the same mutation of the same gene. If there are consistent differences between the pure lines it could be due to other genes line bred in.

3. Different mutations of the same gene. This is a concept that might be new to some but seems to be what is going on with the lesser white snake complex. Just like you can have two versions of the same gene, say albino and normal for albino, you can also have more than two. The gene at the location of the lesser mutation seems to have several different mutant versions/alleles. It looks like Lesser, Mojave, Phantom, Vin Russo, Mocha, and apparently the Hidden mutation that combines with Lesser to make Phantom are all different versions of the same gene. I don't know if Butter is the exact same version as Lesser or if they are distinct different versions like Lesser and Mojave but just happen to look closer together. But even without counting Butter separate from Lesser there are at least 6 and perhaps many more distinctly different mutant versions of this gene. Why it should be so variable I don’t know.

This third category is part way between the first two. The different alleles can still be have very different appearances like say Hidden that looks completely normal when paired with the normal version of this gene and Lesser that is pretty extreme when paired with normal. But there is a relationship between them because they are versions of the same gene. For example, a leucistic from Lesser X Mojave can't pass both mutations on to the same offspring because each only gets one copy of any one gene from each parent. So while pewter X normal has a chance to produce more pewters a cross line leucistic X normal can't produce more leucistics (but also can't produce any normals).

Great post Randy! I have another question, if you think they are all the same gene with different mutations, what would you classifiy the offspring from a BEL(made from Lesser x Mojave)?

I don't think anyone could accuratly tell.

Unfortunately I've not yet had the problem of having to identify the offspring of a cross line leucistic bred to a normal. I've read reports that the results where as expected by the allele theory and that the babies could be divided about 50/50 into the two leucistic side grandparent types. I don't know how sure they could be that the darkest lesser and the lightest mojave didn't overlap but in general the two mutations seem to have pretty distinct looks and produce distinctly different homozygous leucistic versions. Morph King Reptiles was one that did produce a lot of clutches from a Lesser + Mojave leucistic to normals so if you know Joe or Wes ask them for details.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Here is the real test..

Which ones are which???

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/P1050040.jpg

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Well heres my guess since noone else has said it... Lessers are far left, far right, and the lighter bottom middle one. The mojave is the darker bottom middle one. The butters are top middle and second from right on bottom. I tried to post a pic but it wouldnt upload... Oh well... So the winner gets a free butter/lesser right?

Most deffinetly diffrent morphs i would say.

Its like Black Pastel and Cinnamon...produce morphs alike eg Eight Ball and Super Cinny but still slightly diffrent...

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Unfortunately I've not yet had the problem of having to identify the offspring of a cross line leucistic bred to a normal. I've read reports that the results where as expected by the allele theory and that the babies could be divided about 50/50 into the two leucistic side grandparent types. I don't know how sure they could be that the darkest lesser and the lightest mojave didn't overlap but in general the two mutations seem to have pretty distinct looks and produce distinctly different homozygous leucistic versions. Morph King Reptiles was one that did produce a lot of clutches from a Lesser + Mojave leucistic to normals so if you know Joe or Wes ask them for details.

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MKR bred their LesserXMojave Leucistic to like 15 normal females and distinctively produced only Lessers and Mojaves.

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Originally Posted by bait4snake

MKR bred their LesserXMojave Leucistic to like 15 normal females and distinctively produced only Lessers and Mojaves.

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While I tend to believe that about the lessers and mojaves, there are very few claims I would take from MKR at face value. What I would really like to see would be for someone else to breed a lesserXmojave leucistic to several normal females and post the results.

I'm not totally sold that they are two different morphs. Couldn't you selectively breed butters to get lessers and lessers to get butters? They are just so similar!

I have a question, what would happen if you bred a lesser to a butter? would you get BEL? or a lesser to a mojave as well, are they all compatable?

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Originally Posted by Nagini88

I have a question, what would happen if you bred a lesser to a butter? would you get BEL? or a lesser to a mojave as well, are they all compatable?

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they are all compatible

Hi,

Yep any two snakes from the white snake complex bread together produces a BEL of some description. The amount of pattern varies quite a lot - especially if you look super phantoms and class them as BEL's. But I don't know enough about that to say if they should be counted or not. :oops:


dr del

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Here is the real test..

Which ones are which???

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/P1050040.jpg

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Left Butter: Top middle Lesser: Darkest middle Mojave: Middle on top of Mojave Butter: Next snake on the right lesser : Far right butter

I am sure they are the same morph. I think it's just individual variation that makes people think they're different morphs. Lets say you have a 'butter' and a 'lesser' that look as different as they come, and two spiders, one busy with low white sides and lots of black specking, the other reduced, high white and clean. The spiders are gonna look far more different from one another than the lesser and butter will.

I feel like if anybody had a butter x lesser clutch, they might think that they can tell the butter and lesser siblings apart, but in my opinion they're just grouping them according to false preconceived notions about butters and lessers that they've been told by other people. If people continue to breed what they think are butters to more 'butters' and what they think are lessers to other 'lessers', our idea of what each morph is supposed to look like is going to start emerging more and more, so they might start looking more distinctive farther down the line, but it will be due to OUR selective breeding, not due to their genetics being different.

Ok I'll play, sorry if someone guessed this and I missed it already:

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...s/Guessing.jpg


I rather think that butters and lessers are just different lines of the same morph.

... and the beat goes on

Lol, this argument is going to continue untill a geneticist pokes his head in and finds out :) Its funny how everyone says nice "lesser" to that pic.... It just proves more to me they could be the same morph because my nice "butter" looks almost indentical...

I personally can't tell the difference until you ask the breeder the price. $500 says Lesser and more than $500 says Butter.. lol

Here's my little Butter. Traded for him as a Butter. Either way I love him to death..

[IMG]http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/...147_4775-1.jpg[/IMG]

Gavin

Well, to confuse things a bit more - these are BOTH lessers:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...on/Paxton4.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...e/IMG_6188.jpg

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Well, to confuse things a bit more - these are BOTH lessers:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...on/Paxton4.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...e/IMG_6188.jpg

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I would be very happy to own either one of them. :salute:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Well, to confuse things a bit more - these are BOTH lessers:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...on/Paxton4.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...e/IMG_6188.jpg

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Robin are you sure the one in that top pic is a lesser? Do you own it? IMHO it looks like an enchi lesser...... If it is just a lesser then it is by far the best i have seen.

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Originally Posted by NatelovesBPs

Robin are you sure the one in that top pic is a lesser? Do you own it? IMHO it looks like an enchi lesser...... If it is just a lesser then it is by far the best i have seen.

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Yes, I own both of them. He was was produced from a normal female bred to a lesser male. :)

Really? Well, I still believe they are different genes that do almost the same thing. There are good lessers and good butters. Just like any morph. When I want a butter, I want one that looks like BUTTA! Not a sandy blushed out brushed version of one. My girls amazing yellows and blushing led me to name her Marge for margarine :)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l2...sPics024-4.jpg

~No photo tricks here. That is what she looks like under a daylight bulb. No mistaking her for a lesser.

The question is, if you take a lesser and cross it with a butter, do you get hatchlings that are definitively lessers, and others that are definitively butters, or do you get a bunch that run a spectrum, instead? (of course you get a bel, as well, lol).

If you get definitive hatchlings, then they aren't the same thing. If the hatchlings run a spectrum and you can't be quite sure with any one, then they're the same mutation, just different 'lines' (like pastels).

I am curious as which is which.I keep watching this thread to see what they are.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Here is the real test..

Which ones are which???

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/P1050040.jpg

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My guess starting with top left:Butter, Lesser, Butter, Lesser, Mojave on the bottom, Butter on top :P

I believe they are the same.

Just because they are the same morph doesn't mean that they aren't two different lines of the same morph, having other genetics that cause the slight differences people seem to prescribe to the "morphs" themselves.

Lesser or Butter...reduced patterned Lessers/Butters are some of the nicest animals...something I am looking to add to my collection this season... ;)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/P1050040.jpg

Alright.

Here's the answer, courtesy of Mark asking me to finally post it.

Sorry it took so long ;)

Left to right:

Butter, Butter, Lesser, Mojave, Butter, Lesser

The two lightests ones on the right that are sitting on top of each other are a lesser and a mojave? No way...

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Originally Posted by MarkS

The two lightests ones on the right that are sitting on top of each other are a lesser and a mojave? No way...

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Fixed it :)

ohhh i'm jealous!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't butters/lessers first produced by Ralph Davis? And I could swear I read/heard him say that there was definitely a difference. I believe that the one who created the first morph of its kind is the only one with the right to label it or not label it as the same or different than something else.

In any case, I'm interested to hear what others may think about it. I personally think that the two are distinguishable, but I am fairly clueless when it comes to morphs. :P

Ok so I email ralph the picture of my lesser/ butter and asked him the same questions. Is this a lesser or a butter or a platty and really is there a difference? This was his response.

"That is a really pretty "lesser or butter"...........there really is no
difference I have found other than butters are a little more yellow and brighter
than most lessers.


Thanks,
Ralph

Ralph Davis Reptiles, LLC
Office : 410-876-8093
Cell : 410-984-5194"

:spork:

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Originally Posted by JoeEllisReptiles

Ok so I email ralph the picture of my lesser/ butter and asked him the same questions. Is this a lesser or a butter or a platty and really is there a difference? This was his response.

"That is a really pretty "lesser or butter"...........there really is no
difference I have found other than butters are a little more yellow and brighter
than most lessers.

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The big guys have known for years that they are the same. I wish a few more would just come out publicly and say it. I think the lesser/butter debate has gone on way too long.

To my very untrained eyes they do seem to be the same morph, simply having different names. The only distinction I can think of it that lessers hail from the Platinum morph, but on that note I do not know if butters came from a similar daddy morph or were imported as-is.

Ok, so from what I skimmed through and read, making a Platinum IS possible by using a Butter rather then a Lesser?

I am wanting to put a Lesser with a few "Interesting" females this coming season and worse case, I get more lessers..lol..

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Originally Posted by Wildman09

Ok, so from what I skimmed through and read, making a Platinum IS possible by using a Butter rather then a Lesser?

I am wanting to put a Lesser with a few "Interesting" females this coming season and worse case, I get more lessers..lol..

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Anything you can make with a lesser you can make with a butter.

What heard/read is the adult versions are different on the 2.. 1 gets lighter, 1 gets darker... correct me if I'm wrong

i have a butter, he's pretty.

i like lesser's. they're pretty.

same? i dont personally think so.

their combos make slight differences.
key word difference.

i believe they are not the diffsame.
meaning, lesser's are nice. but i like butter's.

but im also a fatty. so obviously i'd go for butter over lesser-er.

Here is a clutch we just hatched. What do you see?
Hint, the mom is a spider.;)
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s...01grouppic.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s...terspiders.jpg

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Originally Posted by Dave763

Here is a clutch we just hatched. What do you see?
Hint, the mom is a spider.;)
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s...01grouppic.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s...terspiders.jpg

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I see what look like Mojaves and lessers and Mojave spiders and Lesser bees..