I need some moral support here people

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Originally Posted by Loft Lizard

To the OP.

Glad to see you are concerned with the welfare of your feeders.

I am a graduate of the "FrankyKeno School of Rodent Breeding and Feeding", and feel that for those of us that feed live, respecting the feeder prey is critical.

I raise all my own prey. My breeders are my pets, and like Franky I retire my females and/or rehome them.

I feed live to my pythons, and I also CO2 rats for my colubrids.

Feeding rats IS part of having a snake. But I will not say the "feed it and get over it thing"... I do not buy that. I think it does take time to really grasp it and to comfortable with it.

It takes a bit of confidence and a concept of the bigger picture. If you feed awkwardly or are not efficient, it does not allow your snake a clean strike or an efficient kill. Which just makes it worse... I had been there, and those experiences are the ones that help you learn.

Especially if you want to provide a quick death for the rodent.

Glad you have a supportive partner.

I can tell from your excitement over his initial feed that perhaps a bit of your hesitation is lifting? :)

My first BP did not eat for 4 months... I tried everything... I even debrained a mouse. Think feeding live is hard... debraining a mouse is something I NEVER want to do again. I offered him live and BAM!... I never looked back. I was amazed to watch it and see just how efficient he was.

Far more efficient than all the tricks I was using that were only serving to stress him out, rather than giving him what he needed... a meal.

Bruce

PS: I think sometimes we forget that stigma is attached not only to snakes, but to snake owners. And that cultural myths/mores prevail regarding what is humane and inhumane. It is easy for people to say "that is cruel!" and if we hear it enough in our lives, we have that disconnect from what is the reality of a snake's live... and that they truly are (as are all animals) a perfect form of evolution.

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Wow what great insight! I am relieved that he ate...it just lifts the load that thinking something might be wrong with him or the setup brought. I really do want him to be happy and healthy. I'm nowhere near ready to participate in the event yet but I can be supportive that it gets done when I'm not around. This is only the first time so hopefully I will get there....and if not then its wonderful to see those SUPPORTIVE people out there :salute:

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Originally Posted by spix14

Anyway the point I'm making is this, don't totally give up on f/t. You may have to feed him live a time or two to get him eating but with a bit of work I have faith that he could be switched to f/t. Did you ever post what your temps and humidity are? That could be the problem. There are also many methods of offering f/t to a snake, have you tried all of them?

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I was going to say. Are you sure that that there isn't a good reason the snake isn't taking f/t? I say this because sometimes if a snake isn't taking f/t, it's because there's husbandry problems - temps or humidity isn't right, enclosure is too big, etc. Also, if you already own rats or mice, you could try "pre-scenting" the room for the snake to make it more excited, so that when you introduce the f/t mouse it might have a stronger feeding response. Another way is to rub the f/t mouse on some bedding from the live mice to make it have a stronger scent.

You might have already tried all the tricks in the book to get him/her to eat f/t, and if so I apologize. I'm not against live feeding, but since you seem to be uncomfortable with it, I just wonder if you tried EVERYTHING before switching to live. Further more, a few weeks is not long at all for a ball python to go without food. When I first got my ball, I offered f/t mice, and she did not start eating for 3 weeks. After that, she ate every week. It was probably because she was a bit nervous at first in her new home, and wasn't comfortable enough to eat yet.

I used to have people come into the pet store where I worked all the time, wanting to buy live food because their snake hadn't eaten in a couple weeks. Then, a month later they don't want to feed live anymore - too expensive, the mice smell bad, not exciting anymore.... whatever reason - but their snake won't even look twice at f/t. Converting from live back to frozen after a snake has established a feeding routine is much harder, so you might want to take another stab at the f/t thing if you don't want to feed live.

ok i think all of you people are missing the bigger picture...FIRST OF ALL...captive bred ball pythons are wrong to have as pet snakes in the first place, whats a pet snake? its a snake that should naturally be in the wild but that you actually bred to be a pet snake...the term "pet snake" should NOT even be around...we all keep snakes for some sort of personal or profitable interest that we may have....SO feeding live rats/mice is morally very wrong, its not nature in any way and how fast it dies is irrelavant...your still controlling its death, not nature....i still do it...BUT i know its wrong...and since we all live in relativly comfortable situations we think its ok to keep these snakes..i think we need to distinguish between nature and your large hands controlling the death

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Originally Posted by Igor

ok i think all of you people are missing the bigger picture...FIRST OF ALL...captive bred ball pythons are wrong to have as pet snakes in the first place, whats a pet snake? its a snake that should naturally be in the wild but that you actually bred to be a pet snake...the term "pet snake" should NOT even be around...we all keep snakes for some sort of personal or profitable interest that we may have....SO feeding live rats/mice is morally very wrong, its not nature in any way and how fast it dies is irrelavant...your still controlling its death, not nature....i still do it...BUT i know its wrong...and since we all live in relativly comfortable situations we think its ok to keep these snakes..i think we need to distinguish between nature and your large hands controlling the death

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Lol. Cats and Dogs didnt' start out living in houses either. Guess we should get rid of all of them. Morally very wrong? Who are you to say what's morally wrong? You religious? I've never seen anything that says don't feed live rats to snakes in the Bible.

Are we not nature? Us killing a mouse is very nature. We're animals just like the rest of the world.

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Originally Posted by Igor

ok i think all of you people are missing the bigger picture...FIRST OF ALL...captive bred ball pythons are wrong to have as pet snakes in the first place, whats a pet snake? its a snake that should naturally be in the wild but that you actually bred to be a pet snake...the term "pet snake" should NOT even be around...we all keep snakes for some sort of personal or profitable interest that we may have....SO feeding live rats/mice is morally very wrong, its not nature in any way and how fast it dies is irrelavant...your still controlling its death, not nature....i still do it...BUT i know its wrong...and since we all live in relativly comfortable situations we think its ok to keep these snakes..i think we need to distinguish between nature and your large hands controlling the death

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Igor, you got your snake what a month ago? In my very quick scan through your posts I see that in that relatively short time you've had trouble setting it up, it didn't eat very well and when it did eat you handled it so much you caused it to regurge.

Perhaps you might want to give responsible snake keeping just a teeny tad longer try before you stand in judgement on whether or not our members have a right to have a "pet snake"......m'kay. :)

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Originally Posted by Igor

captive bred ball pythons are wrong to have as pet snakes in the first place, whats a pet snake?

its a snake that should naturally be in the wild but that you actually bred to be a pet snake...the term "pet snake" should NOT even be around...we all keep snakes for some sort of personal or profitable interest that we may have....

SO feeding live rats/mice is morally very wrong, its not nature in any way and how fast it dies is irrelavant...your still controlling its death, not nature....i still do it...

BUT i know its wrong...and since we all live in relativly comfortable situations we think its ok to keep these snakes..

i think we need to distinguish between nature and your large hands controlling the death

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Igor, what do you think pets are? Captives that humans keep? How is keeping a dog or cat different for someone that gets the same pleasure from owning a room full of snakes and reptiles?

Humans feel attached to nature and want it in our lives. We bring plants and animals into our home because we enjoy them. We domesticate animals to tolerate and for some to enjoy our companionship like dogs and cats.

I bring reptiles into our home for their primal beauty and "wild center".

Just because you may not get the same pleasure and enjoyment as I do, does not mean it's "morally" wrong to keep any reptiles or feed them what they eat.

Given the hypocrisy in your post, I hardly think your anyone to judge us on why or how any pet owners keep their animals.

But again, thanks for calling us morally wrong death mongers messing with nature. :rolleyes:


Quote of the day
"Are we not nature? Us killing a mouse is very nature. We're animals just like the rest of the world." :bow: **couldnt give you any more rep points**

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Originally Posted by Igor

ok i think all of you people are missing the bigger picture...FIRST OF ALL...captive bred ball pythons are wrong to have as pet snakes in the first place, whats a pet snake? its a snake that should naturally be in the wild but that you actually bred to be a pet snake...the term "pet snake" should NOT even be around...we all keep snakes for some sort of personal or profitable interest that we may have....SO feeding live rats/mice is morally very wrong, its not nature in any way and how fast it dies is irrelavant...your still controlling its death, not nature....i still do it...BUT i know its wrong...and since we all live in relativly comfortable situations we think its ok to keep these snakes..i think we need to distinguish between nature and your large hands controlling the death

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so why do you have a snake if you think it is wrong to keep them as pets? Your hypocrisy doesnt make sense

Igor, I just had to show your post to everyone in my office. :rofl:

Well now that this thread has been hijacked by the lynching of igor, i will post the successful feeding story on a seperate thread :D

Also, I cannot give you any more rep points frankykeno, but as soon as I can, I will!

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Igor, you got your snake what a month ago? In my very quick scan through your posts I see that in that relatively short time you've had trouble setting it up, it didn't eat very well and when it did eat you handled it so much you caused it to regurge.

Perhaps you might want to give responsible snake keeping just a teeny tad longer try before you stand in judgement on whether or not our members have a right to have a "pet snake"......m'kay. :)

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hey...now you are just assuming facts...i had my snake for 3 months now...and it didnt eat for the 4 months...and so far i have been feeding live ann all have been successful....so please dont assume....second of all,,, why the heck did someone mention the bible??????? who here follos the bible anyways? i came to the conclusion that is morally wrong because you are controlling its death, not nature, you are conciously controlling its death...that is not nature, if there were bigger beings on this earth as an exagerated example...and you were kept as a pet, and fed to an aligator....would that be nature? look at the bigger picture

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Originally Posted by aaramire

so why do you have a snake if you think it is wrong to keep them as pets? Your hypocrisy doesnt make sense

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i am not a hypocrite, i look at it as a hobby that is wrong in a way, but i still do it cause i like it...i didnt recognize it as the right thing to do on my own part...why dont u stick ur ass in a big terrium and live there for 20 years and see hwo you feel

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Originally Posted by Igor

i am not a hypocrite, i look at it as a hobby that is wrong in a way, but i still do it cause i like it...i didnt recognize it as the right thing to do on my own part...why dont u stick ur ass in a big terrium and live there for 20 years and see hwo you feel

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if you feel like your animal is suffering by keeping it in a cage, then dont have an animal. what you are saying makes no sense at all, and I can tell you there are plenty of people on this site who follow the bible, so I wouldnt be saying anything about that if I were you.

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Originally Posted by aaramire

if you feel like your animal is suffering by keeping it in a cage, then dont have an animal. what you are saying makes no sense at all, and I can tell you there are plenty of people on this site who follow the bible, so I wouldnt be saying anything about that if I were you.

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lets make it clear, i am not judging anyone here, and i dont care if anyone uses the bible...dont bring organized relegion into this.....as well, do not compare dogs and cats with snakes, i;ve seen it here before, it is agreed that a snake even captive bred, is still a wild animal, a dog is not...u dont keep a dog in a cage in most cases

So what is it Igor? What do you consider a pet? I'm anxious to know how far the hypocrisy goes.



*follow me down the rabbit hole*

From today 3/27

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Originally Posted by Igor

hey...now you are just assuming facts...i had my snake for 3 months now...and it didnt eat for the 4 months...and so far i have been feeding live ann all have been successful....so please dont assume....

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From 3/11

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Originally Posted by Igor

thats interesting...i just got my bp a month ago and i have set up from pic 2!! and it works well, i think...

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I don't think Jo was ASSuming anything considering she was only 16 days off from your second post in another thread.

I'll correct it for you, approx a month and a half you've had the BP by your dates, so why the harsh comments towards Jo???? We can only work with what you give us.

ok i made a mistake in my previous post...i had my snake since like jan 20...until today!! so thats about 2 months, it didnt eat for 5 weeks!!! and now its been eating 5 times consitently...so i belive my husbandry is right, as well it shed successfully...if u guys want proof i can give it to you...but WE ARE GETTING OFF TOPIC...i dont have much experince with ball pythons, but for now i am doing alright since its been eating consistently now..and its feeding response is great...

back to the topic...little indian girl..i consider a pet who has pretty much full freedom to do whatever it wants..i mean that is your american dream right...anyways, a dog has alot of freedom in most cases, a snake doesnt....so like i said domesticated pets are fine...we keep snakes for our OWN ENJOYMENT...to their SOMEWHAT expense, i am not sayin they suffer, but they dont live their life to their full potential thats my point

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Originally Posted by Igor

i consider a pet who has pretty much full freedom to do whatever it wants..i mean that is your american dream right...anyways, a dog has alot of freedom in most cases, a snake doesnt....

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Hun, that's called a stray. Feral cats, wild dogs, feral rats, horses, birds... Those are stray animals that are self sustaining in most cases without human intervention that were at one point or another living with humans as domesticated animals. When left to their own devices they will go back to being wild animals in most cases, one generation.

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so like i said domesticated pets are fine...we keep snakes for our OWN ENJOYMENT...to their SOMEWHAT expense, i am not sayin they suffer, but they dont live their life to their full potential thats my point

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I can't think of any domestic pet that lives to it's "full potential" like their cousins in the wild. Name one animal besides perhaps a fish that can live to it's full potential in captivity. (no anthropomorphizing please!)

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Originally Posted by Igor

back to the topic...little indian girl..i consider a pet who has pretty much full freedom to do whatever it wants..

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That's not a pet. That's a wild animal.

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Originally Posted by Igor

i consider a pet who has pretty much full freedom to do whatever it wants..i mean that is your american dream right...anyways, a dog has alot of freedom in most cases, a snake doesnt....so like i said domesticated pets are fine...we keep snakes for our OWN ENJOYMENT...to their SOMEWHAT expense, i am not sayin they suffer, but they dont live their life to their full potential thats my point

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Easy on the freedom rhetoric. You're assuming that animals comprehend and want something that's a human concept and value. I don't know if you can even make that assumption.:confused:

[QUOTE=littleindiangirl;751337]Hun, that's called a stray. Feral cats, wild dogs, feral rats, horses, birds... Those are stray animals that are self sustaining in most cases without human intervention that were at one point or another living with humans as domesticated animals. When left to their own devices they will go back to being wild animals in most cases, one generation.


well that is not the context i meant it in...i meant cats and dogs have mental capacity to recognize us as their care givers...a cat can go wonder around on the streets and come back to you..that is what i mean by freedom..its purely domesticated..a snake wont, and YES I KNOW BECAUSE OF THE MENTAL CAPACITY...so dont argue that, but i mean its still a wild animal, and keeping it in a cage...for our own purposes, is a little bit wrong...however since we enjoy the hobby we still do it...i love my snake personally!!! but i can still think its wrong, that is my opinion on it, and again we are off topic...i still feed my snake live food...and i will probably do that for a while until i am satsifed he can eat f/t...but i STILL think its wrong to contribute to someone elses death, if some of you are such avid jesus followers...isnt it wrong to contribute to someone elses death? if that is the case, than keeping a pet snake is wrong, since they would thrive in the wild and nature would take its course

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Originally Posted by Reverend Jones

Easy on the freedom rhetoric. You're assuming that animals comprehend and want something that's a human concept and value. I don't know if you can even make that assumption.:confused:

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reverend...never did i say that snakes comprehend..you said animals..which animals are you referring to? because dogs do in fact comprehend some things, anyways yes snakes probably dont...but they become lazy animals in captivity...which proves my point that they dont reach their full potential in their life span as they would in the wild..i am not saying they comprehend that...but it doesnt make it that much better, right? i think we as humans with a concious mind CAN comprehend that they dont reach their full potential due to our own interests

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Originally Posted by Igor

reverend...never did i say that snakes comprehend..you said animals..which animals are you referring to? because dogs do in fact comprehend some things, anyways yes snakes probably dont...but they become lazy animals in captivity...which proves my point that they dont reach their full potential in their life span as they would in the wild..i am not saying they comprehend that...but it doesnt make it that much better, right? i think we as humans with a concious mind CAN comprehend that they dont reach their full potential due to our own interests

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how do you how these so called "lazy snakes" act like in the wild? who are you to say that these snakes dont exhibit the exact same behavior in the wild as they would in captivity? ball pythons are a ground dwelling species, and they spend most of the day resting in burrows underground, and only come out at night to hunt and such. I am pretty sure ball pythons do the same thing in their cages, they rest in their hides during the day and slither aorund their cages at night when we are all asleep. Have you ever asked your snake if he thinks he is living his life to the full potential? I bet he would say yes everytime he gobbles down a live mousie or rattie.

Igor...if you have such a moral problem with having a snake, then why do you have one? You personally feel that it's wrong and yet you still do it? I'd say that makes you far worse than the rest of us who you seem to be trying to guilt trip over having pet snakes. OH yes, I said pet. While they are not domesticated in a sense, they are used to humans...they depends on us for food, housing, and medical care...that makes them a pet.

So far as your whole mouse murder is wrong vendetta...so from what I can understand, it's ok for the mouse to be killed and eaten by the snake, but it's not ok for us to bring the mouse to the snake. I sure hope you're a vegan or that'd be a big fat load of hypocracy right there. What do you suggest we do? Tie our snakes to little strings and let them hunt their own food in a field somewhere? Let them starve?

If you have such a problem with both keeping snakes and feeding them their prey, then I am really at a loss as to why you are a reptile owner in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Igor

well that is not the context i meant it in...i meant cats and dogs have mental capacity to recognize us as their care givers...a cat can go wonder around on the streets and come back to you..that is what i mean by freedom..its purely domesticated..a snake wont, and YES I KNOW BECAUSE OF THE MENTAL CAPACITY...so dont argue that, but i mean its still a wild animal, and keeping it in a cage...for our own purposes, is a little bit wrong...however since we enjoy the hobby we still do it...i love my snake personally!!! but i can still think its wrong, that is my opinion on it, and again we are off topic...i still feed my snake live food...and i will probably do that for a while until i am satsifed he can eat f/t...but i STILL think its wrong to contribute to someone elses death, if some of you are such avid jesus followers...isnt it wrong to contribute to someone elses death? if that is the case, than keeping a pet snake is wrong, since they would thrive in the wild and nature would take its course

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Why do you keep bringing religion into this? If you don't know what christians believe, then why are you even walking down this path? I am a christian, and I have no moral or eithical issues with snake ownership or husbandry.

You keep harping on things in nature. Nature and natural things are not necessarily so great. Most animals in the wild live very short lives, and never even survive to adulthood. Those that do face predators, disease, and the environment. Arsenic and mercury or completely 'natural', but harmful. I think you need to make that distinction.

Also, as far as contributing to someone's death. I take it, your a vegetarian? Otherwise, you contribute to someone's death on a daily basis. I do not believe that consuming another animal is wrong, so have no issues feeding my snakes. I mean, it's no different than what's in most dog foods but in a different package.

Obviously you are not going to find many people who are going to agree with you here. If we found it morally wrong, then we would likely give up our animals. I know I would. (if that happened to be the case) I think we'll have to just agree to disagree, as this agruement is going nowhere fast. :)

first of all...lets not get so defensive lol...cant you have a normal debate without getting so frustrated? i am not guilt tripping anyone, its just my opinion on the matter...relax bud....now theres a huge diffrent in the snake hunting and you bringing it food! uhh, like isaid i love snakes thats why i have one, and i dont NO I am not a vegan..i eat a lot of meat, i can see how you think its hypocritical, but your missing the point, i am saying that keeping a snake in the first place is not right, feeding it fits into a diffrent sub category of wrong...if we didnt value the beauty of snakes in the first place we wouldnt keep it as a pet, so iam saying your only doing it for ur own enjoyment...

So...you're saying that we are all (including yourself) just a bunch of selfish people for both keeping and feeding our snakes because they would have a much better life in the wild? Did I hit the nail on the head there?

And please don't call me bud. For one thing I'm a chic. This is hardly a normal debate when you are seeming to contradict yourself every other paragraph. I don't see the point of it. It seems like you basically just decided to make an observation stating we're all a bunch of putzes for having snakes.

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Originally Posted by Igor

....so iam saying your only doing it for ur own enjoyment...

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I actually decided to get my two snakes strictly because I think they're safer in tubs than in the wild. I derive no pleasure from keeping them whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by ChrisBowsman

I actually decided to get my two snakes strictly because I think they're safer in tubs than in the wild. I derive no pleasure from keeping them whatsoever.

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haha nice:)

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Originally Posted by spix14

So...you're saying that we are all (including yourself) just a bunch of selfish people for both keeping and feeding our snakes because they would have a much better life in the wild? Did I hit the nail on the head there?

And please don't call me bud. For one thing I'm a chic. This is hardly a normal debate when you are seeming to contradict yourself every other paragraph. I don't see the point of it. It seems like you basically just decided to make an observation stating we're all a bunch of putzes for having snakes.

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well i didnt call anyone anything....BUD...and please name one contradiction i had...i just stated my points, and thats it, i never called any of you selfish...i didnt say you are wrong for keeping snakes, i am just trying to give you another perspective and please stop pmsinG...i am not trying to aruge with you, iwant to have a debate...so relax..if your gonna freak out than dont say anything, i cant keep repeating what i said, just read what i said in the first place, that sums up my point!!!

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Originally Posted by ChrisBowsman

I actually decided to get my two snakes strictly because I think they're safer in tubs than in the wild. I derive no pleasure from keeping them whatsoever.

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so are you telling me both of your snakes are wild caught ball pythons? cuase if they are not, they wouldnt survive in the wild anyways...and if your so animal concious why dont you open up a zoo...and bring a lot of animals, obviously if u chose snakes you like them

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Originally Posted by Igor

well i didnt call anyone anything....BUD...and please name one contradiction i had...i just stated my points, and thats it, i never called any of you selfish...i didnt say you are wrong for keeping snakes, i am just trying to give you another perspective and please stop pmsinG...i am not trying to aruge with you, iwant to have a debate...so relax..if your gonna freak out than dont say anything, i cant keep repeating what i said, just read what i said in the first place, that sums up my point!!!

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Oh, wow, sorry about that. I didn't realize I was talking to an immature little kid.

I'm done here.

Alright enough everyone... go to your corners, and take a time out please.

This is no longer a debate, but treading the line of bear baiting and name calling. Consider this a general warning, and after this post infractions will be handed out.

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Originally Posted by Igor

so are you telling me both of your snakes are wild caught ball pythons? cuase if they are not, they wouldnt survive in the wild anyways...and if your so animal concious why dont you open up a zoo...and bring a lot of animals, obviously if u chose snakes you like them

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obviously this is a joke, have you ever heard of sarcasm? I really think you are just prolonging this argument because you like reading what you typed. like tigerlilly said, just agree to disagree and let that be the end of it.

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Originally Posted by Igor

so are you telling me both of your snakes are wild caught ball pythons? cuase if they are not, they wouldnt survive in the wild anyways...and if your so animal concious why dont you open up a zoo...and bring a lot of animals, obviously if u chose snakes you like them

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I was being facetious. I do enjoy keeping snakes very much. For the record, they're both CB.

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Originally Posted by ChrisBowsman

I'm working on it. I also have a dog and a gold fish.

Let me ask.... why would captive ball pythons not live in the wild? In the wild, they spend the vast majority of their time in a termite mound, exiting to eat and poop. In captivity, they spend the vast majority of their time in a hide box, exiting to eat and poop. Both my snakes eat live mice, which are placed in the tub, not offered with tongs.

They're not like dogs, or some other animal that becomes tamed to the point where it forgets about predators. I've handled them both countless times, never hurt either one, yet if I reach too quickly, or they simply do not feel like being handled, they pull back and ball up.

Aside from the fact that my snakes will live a heck of a lot longer than their wild brethren, I don't think there's really that much difference. And for the record, they're both CB.

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well i'll tell you what, if you want to do an experiment...put a gps probe on one of them, release them in their native africa..and watch how long it lasts compared to a wild one, and see what happens

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Originally Posted by Igor

well i'll tell you what, if you want to do an experiment...put a gps probe on one of them, release them in their native africa..and watch how long it lasts compared to a wild one, and see what happens

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Ok, let me get my GPS probes out and we'll get right to that.

You already said that ball pythons are not pets, so they should go right back to being wild.
Since lots of pigs, dogs, cats, cows, goats all go back to living in the wild with no issue, I would expect a ball python released into a native habitat to do very well, especially considering it would be(assuming the owner had good husbandry) parasite free, and of good weight when released.
If you find it morally wrong, and you do it anyway, then YOU are wrong.
You take the life of animals by eating meat, by using animal products. Feeding a snake a mouse is just more honest in your consumption of the life. Pretending the McBurger came from a store, rather than was once part of a living animal is morally wrong in my opinion.
I keep my PETS because I love them, and love taking care of them, and enjoy the activity we share, whether it be watching the snake in it's bin, or wrestling with my dog.

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Originally Posted by Igor

well i didnt call anyone anything....BUD...and please name one contradiction i had...i just stated my points, and thats it, i never called any of you selfish...i didnt say you are wrong for keeping snakes, i am just trying to give you another perspective and please stop pmsinG...i am not trying to aruge with you, iwant to have a debate...so relax..if your gonna freak out than dont say anything, i cant keep repeating what i said, just read what i said in the first place, that sums up my point!!!

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Igor, the only one that I see freaking out here is you.

This is a warning - you say you want a civil debate. Then you need to be civil as well. Comments like asking someone to stop PMSing, or calling people names will earn you an infraction.

Now calm down and have fun debating CIVILLY.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Igor, the only one that I see freaking out here is you.

This is a warning - you say you want a civil debate. Then you need to be civil as well. Comments like asking someone to stop PMSing, or calling people names will earn you an infraction.

Now calm down and have fun debating CIVILLY.

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lol i am not freaking out...obviously you cant tell because this is an online forum...i was trying to have a civil debate until some people got upset and frustrated about a simple opinion

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Originally Posted by Igor

lol i am not freaking out...obviously you cant tell because this is an online forum...i was trying to have a civil debate until some people got upset and frustrated about a simple opinion

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And yet - YOU were the only one slinging insults at other members by asking them to stop PMSing because you didn't like what they said.

Snakes eating mice, is the food chain. It's just plain Mother Nature at work. Please don't hate it :)