wobbles

i suppose its only bad in our opinion and if it doesnt affect the snake then let it be.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

But how do you know it's a disorder, or a negative trait? I'm asking mostly because I'm curious about it...
I have a friend who has a pretty bad tic every time he talks...it makes him seem really awkward as a first impression...should he not breed either?

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I don't see how it could be considered anything other than a negative trait. Have you ever seen a spider that is a bad spinner? It is very disturbing to watch. I may be able to find a video when I get home of one of my friends spiders spinning. I would consider his to be about a 5 on a scale of 1-10 as far as spinning goes. I'll post it if I can find it.

As for your friend, I don't now what his problem is or know how bad the problem you mention is, but if it was a genetic disorder and would be passed on to his children 100% of the time like the wobble is passed down in spiders I would think it would be better for him not to have children. I know if it were me I would prefer not to have children than to pass on known genetic problems to my kids. I would just adopt.

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Originally Posted by veedubz

i suppose its only bad in our opinion and if it doesnt affect the snake then let it be.

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How do you know it does not affect the snake? Just because it eats and breeds does not mean it has an optimal quality of life.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

How do you know it does not affect the snake? Just because it eats and breeds does not mean it has an optimal quality of life.

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Since we can not understand the language of 'snake' we have to use measures that we can extrapolate information from- like eating and breeding.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

I don't see how it could be considered anything other than a negative trait. Have you ever seen a spider that is a bad spinner? It is very disturbing to watch. I may be able to find a video when I get home of one of my friends spiders spinning. I would consider his to be about a 5 on a scale of 1-10 as far as spinning goes. I'll post it if I can find it.

As for your friend, I don't now what his problem is or know how bad the problem you mention is, but if it was a genetic disorder and would be passed on to his children 100% of the time like the wobble is passed down in spiders I would think it would be better for him not to have children. I know if it were me I would prefer not to have children than to pass on known genetic problems to my kids. I would just adopt.

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While trying to keep from invoking Godwin's Law, I'm going to again point out that things that one person might see as a "problem" might, to someone else, just be a harmless quirk in their personality. And no one thinks we should all be exactly the same!
As I mentioned before, albinism is known to cause problems in wild animals, but very few of the folks around here seem to mind the breeding of them...
As I said, I don't know anything about wobbling though, which is the reason I'm here asking about it. I just wonder if there's evidence that it's bad, other then "it seems bad." For all we know, it might give them a superior ability to do...something (though it doesn't seem likely)

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Originally Posted by pfan151

The provided link agrees with me that normal sibs do not exhibit the trait. What are you trying to say???

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"I do believe that breeders have seen “spinning” in spider siblings, but I don’t think that it is any more common in the normal looking siblings of spiders than it is in any other normal looking ball python."

It never said it doesn't happen. Just said its not as common in normal sibs as it is in spiders.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

I would just adopt.

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Kids, We don't need not stinking kids. Sorry I had to. I agree if there is something like the spinning or wobble in the spiders. That could be passed into the kids then I wouldn't breed myself to whatever female I was going to breed to. If something was wrong with me and I passed it onto my kid I don't know what I would do. Or like in the spiders the ones that don't do it can have babies that do. So ok my kids don't do it but then my grand kids do. So if I had something going on that I know is going to be passed on to my kids or their kids. I would go out and grab the bolt cutters right now and take care of it. OK sorry thats a bit out there but you know what I was talking about.

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Originally Posted by starmom

Since we can not understand the language of 'snake' we have to use measures that we can extrapolate information from- like eating and breeding.

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I eat and breed (not as much as I would like But anyways) Thats not a sign of me having a good or bad life. If im homeless haven't ate in a week. You throw just about anything in front of me chances are im going to eat it. I guess same goes with breeding. If I haven't been bred in 6 months, 1 year or whatever. Im going to breed anything you throw in front of me. (maybe) So just because im eating and breeding doesn't prove that I have a good life. But then again eating and breeding what else does a guy need.

I think when you are looking at spiders you need to ask the right questions about it. From what I have seen the wobbling/spining can be reduced by breeding quality non wobbling/spinning animals. It all comes back to knowing who you get an animal from and getting quality snakes/spiders.

When I buy a spider I look for high white, reduced pattern and little or no signs of wobble(I wouldnt even look at anything spinning, big difference)). I also will pay more than the best price on KS to get what I want. Buy quality:snake: from reputable people and you are fine.
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Spiders rock

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

From what I have seen the wobbling/spining can be reduced by breeding quality non wobbling/spinning animals.

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Actually no, it can't. Slight spinners produce train wrecks and vice-versa. There is no such thing as a non wobbling/spinning spider.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

Actually no, it can't. Slight spinners produce train wrecks and vice-versa. There is no such thing as a non wobbling/spinning spider.

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That is a bold statement John. Have you had this experience yourself?

I think each person has their own opinion here and we could argue this thread to 100+ pages if we wanted too! OK!

What makes spinning a negative trait?

Now negative traits are generally based on things that inhibit an animal in its native environment from what I understand.

Lets take a mildly spinning spider and put it in its native environment. Then lets take a nice bright super lemon pastel and put it in its native environment. Which is probably going to live the longest assuming both are the same length, weight, and sex?

I believe using this analogy you would be calling the bright colors a negative trait as it would be easily seen by those that prey on them!

Lucky for the supers we make they do not end up in the wild and we can continue to call it a positive trait as far as collectors are concerned.

Everyone is going to have their own opinion on this topic. If you have plans to breed and animal with any trait I think you need to let anyone who purchases the animal know about the trait. The individual doing the purchasing will decide if the trait is a negative or positive to them and affect how much they are willing to pay for the animal. If you are keeping the offspring for yourself then before you breed an animal with a any trait you have to be ready to take care of the babies that have those traits and any others that develop.

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

That is a bold statement John. Have you had this experience yourself?

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It's really not a bold statement. It is pretty widely accepted that all spiders spin/wobble. Maybe a few years ago it would have been a bold statement but not anymore. As I have said. I won't breed them (or keep them in my collection) but I don't look down on anyone who feels differently than me. What does bother me a bit is when people try to claim that "it just adds personality" or tries to say it is not a negative trait. Before I decided they were not for me I held and looked through over 100 of them looking for that perfect one at various shows and in friends collections. It does not exist. They are all tweaked (at least a little). Either way, it does not really matter what I think on this. The public has spoken and it is obvious from the number of spiders out there that this disorder does not seem to bother most breeders/keepers too much.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

It's really not a bold statement. It is pretty widely accepted that all spiders spin/wobble. Maybe a few years ago it would have been a bold statement but not anymore. As I have said. I won't breed them (or keep them in my collection) but I don't look down on anyone who feels differently than me. What does bother me a bit is when people try to claim that "it just adds personality" or tries to say it is not a negative trait. Before I decided they were not for me I held and looked through over 100 of them looking for that perfect one at various shows and in friends collections. It does not exist. They are all tweaked (at least a little). Either way, it does not really matter what I think on this. The public has spoken and it is obvious from the number of spiders out there that this disorder does not seem to bother most breeders/keepers too much.

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So what you are saying is some of the largest and most respected breeders in the ball python community are knowingly selling and breeding snakes that have genetic issues and should be classified as substandard unethically becouse they are not disclosing these facts up front? I'm just wondering how you can make this claim! When if you ask these well known breeders about their spiders and/or Spider X ???? morphs none of them tell you "You can barely notice this one spin." or "this one really spins!"

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Originally Posted by pfan151

What does bother me a bit is when people try to claim that "it just adds personality" or tries to say it is not a negative trait. Before I decided they were not for me I held and looked through over 100 of them looking for that perfect one at various shows and in friends collections. It does not exist. They are all tweaked (at least a little).

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But you've offered no proof that it is a negative trait. Just because all spiders have it doesn't mean that it's bad hehe. If you don't like them (or just the wobbling) then that's fine, but there are plenty of differences between specimens of all species.
Again, for example, many Asians lack an enzyme needed to break down alcohol, and so even a small drink makes them feel really sick.
But I wouldn't say that they shouldn't breed because they'll pass it to their kids, and I also wouldn't say they shouldn't breed with other ethnicities because they'll sully our genetic material.
Unless there's a clear negative effect, I'll remain unconvinced. (And I mean, one that's spinning badly and keeps smacking its head, I could see the argument that HE has a disorder, but as long as they're just a little weird, let them be!) Variety is the spice of life!:banana:

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

So what you are saying is some of the largest and most respected breeders in the ball python community are knowingly selling and breeding snakes that have genetic issues and should be classified as substandard unethically becouse they are not disclosing these facts up front? I'm just wondering how you can make this claim! When if you ask these well known breeders about their spiders and/or Spider X ???? morphs none of them tell you "You can barely notice this one spin." or "this one really spins!"

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When did I say that I thought any breeder was acting unethically??? I clearly said more than once in this thread that I DO NOT look down on any breeder or keeper for choosing to keep and breed spiders. It is my own personal stance that I will never own or breed them. It is up to everyone individually to decide whether to work with spiders or any other morph. But yes, I do think ALL breeders should disclose to every customer that spiders wobble/spin before finalizing any sale. Now if a breeder tried to claim that his spiders don't spin then yes, I would consider them to either be unethical or at least not very knowledgable on the subject.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

But you've offered no proof that it is a negative trait. Just because all spiders have it doesn't mean that it's bad hehe. If you don't like them (or just the wobbling) then that's fine, but there are plenty of differences between specimens of all species.

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Still looking for the video of my friends spider spinning. I would like to hear your opinion on the subject once I am able to find and post it.

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Originally Posted by ama1997

"I do believe that breeders have seen “spinning” in spider siblings, but I don’t think that it is any more common in the normal looking siblings of spiders than it is in any other normal looking ball python."

It never said it doesn't happen. Just said its not as common in normal sibs as it is in spiders.

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It seems like you want to believe something, so you're misinterpreting information to fit your mistaken belief.

If it's not more common in spider sibs than other normals, there isn't a problem gene being passed to the sibs. Of course this is obvious if you think about it at all. If the wobble was a separate gene, only spiders with that gene would wobble.

I have nothing to add but a question
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Hypothetically, since weebles wobble - but don't fall down - is that a bad thing? :bolt:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I have nothing to add but a question
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Hypothetically, since weebles wobble - but don't fall down - is that a bad thing? :bolt:

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BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

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Originally Posted by ama1997

I eat and breed (not as much as I would like But anyways) Thats not a sign of me having a good or bad life. If im homeless haven't ate in a week. You throw just about anything in front of me chances are im going to eat it. I guess same goes with breeding. If I haven't been bred in 6 months, 1 year or whatever. Im going to breed anything you throw in front of me. (maybe) So just because im eating and breeding doesn't prove that I have a good life. But then again eating and breeding what else does a guy need.

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Didn't know this thread was still going....
It is illogical for you to use a human as an example of or for reptile behavior.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I have nothing to add but a question
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Hypothetically, since weebles wobble - but don't fall down - is that a bad thing? :bolt:

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Oh Robin... :rofl::rofl::rofl::rolleye2::rofl::rofl::rofl:

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Originally Posted by starmom

It is illogical for you to use a human as an example of or for reptile behavior.

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Oh come on Mrs.Spock, isn't that where we get the term "Cold blooded murder" from? LOL :P

To possibly shed some light on this topic I E-mailed the Barkers to get their thoughts on this condition! It will be interesting to see if they can further shed some light on this topic. I think they have enough knowledge on genetic disorders in snakes to be classified as a leading expert in the field. :)

Hi,

First post here.

I have a (baby) norminal and have plans to acquire a Pastel and a Spider in the near future.
Of course, the "wobbling" is a concern, specially because I´ve never acually seen it in a snake - only read about it.
Do you have/know of any videos with a BP wobbling/spinning ? - I have to make a decision wether or not this is "an issue" to me.

Thanks in advance for your replies.


BTW: great site and I hope to learn a alot with all of you

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Originally Posted by JoMo

Hi,

First post here.

I have a (baby) norminal and have plans to acquire a Pastel and a Spider in the near future.
Of course, the "wobbling" is a concern, specially because I´ve never acually seen it in a snake - only read about it.
Do you have/know of any videos with a BP wobbling/spinning ? - I have to make a decision wether or not this is "an issue" to me.

Thanks in advance for your replies.


BTW: great site and I hope to learn a alot with all of you

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Most spiders wobble a bit. If you dont know what to look for you may not even notice it. Usually right before they strike their prey their head bobbles up and down a little then bam they strike. In my opinion this is no big deal and like I said most people would never notice. To me a mild wobble is acceptable.

Spinning is more extreme where the motor movements of the snake are much more affected with twisting motion.

I reccomend either getting a spider at a show where you can see how it behaves or buy one from a trusted source who will give you an accurate description of the behavior. I have 2 spiders(male and female) that have come from different breeders, one has a mild wobble(great personality, probably my friendliest snake) and the other you never see it, maybe a split second before a strike. They are both great snakes and have never had any health problems whatsoever.

I find it interesting that most of the people that comment negatively on spiders dont have one and it seems their opinions are based on the extreme cases or some ugly youtube video. Like the news the ugliest stories get the most attention. Most people that have spiders are very happy with them.

I would avoid one that spins and has motor problems but that still leaves 1000's of nice spiders. I myself dont buy into fear and paranoia(negativity). I just do my homework and make positive educated decisions.

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

I find it interesting that most of the people that comment negatively on spiders dont have one and it seems their opinions are based on the extreme cases or some ugly youtube video. Like the news the ugliest stories get the most attention. Most people that have spiders are very happy with them.

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I think the reason most people that comment negatively on spider do not own one is because they like me have decided not to work with them due to the spinning/wobbling. For me that is the absolute only reason that I do not have at 5 females.

Raul

Thank you so much .

Based on your description, I would say the wobbling wouldn´t bother me; the spinning....is another story

As to getting a spider at a show, I don´t see how that could help, if the woogling is right before the strike and not in their day-to-day behaviour.

That leaves my to find a reliable breeder, which, in my case, means travelling 2.000 kms. But, if that´s the way to go...

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Originally Posted by JoMo

Raul

Thank you so much .

Based on your description, I would say the wobbling wouldn´t bother me; the spinning....is another story

As to getting a spider at a show, I don´t see how that could help, if the woogling is right before the strike and not in their day-to-day behaviour.

That leaves my to find a reliable breeder, which, in my case, means travelling 2.000 kms. But, if that´s the way to go...

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I agree, the slight wobbling does not really bother me too much. My problem with spider is that I don't want to take the chance to produce bad spinners while hoping to get lucky. I think hatching out bad spinners is MUCH more common than many people realize.

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Originally Posted by ama1997

Thats my thoughts on this too. If someone wants to keep a spider as a pet fine. If its not spinning or wobbling to bad. If it is it needs to be put down. I do not think they should be bred.

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I just pulled this thread up because I just recently purchased a Spider and remember people were talking about this topic a while back. Mine has some little quirks but it is nothing that I think is detrimental to him. I pulled this quote because I think that people may have missed this and it very much angered me and that no one addressed it really surprised me. Are you really saying that Spiders with any kind of visual defect that are going to be bred be exterminated? That is the most insane thing I have ever heard some one say. If you are a breeder I would never buy anything from a person that would just discard their animals because of a flaw they feel is unsightly. That comment is disgusting.

I have been trying to get in touch with some of the major breeders and get opinions or evidence one way or the other. So far only one breeder has given me a responce to this topic, and since I didn't ask to use this as a public quote, so I will not be using the breeders name. I will say I have E-mailed NERD, VPI, and a couple others and several days later am still awaiting a reply! My questions are in black and the breeders answers in Red.

> 1. Is wobbling/spinning isolated to just spiders? (Some people are starting to claim pinstripes wobble and spin!)
I have seen it only in Spider and Spider Mutations Such as bees etc.
> 2. Do all spiders seem to have it, the majority, or a minority of them? I would say that the majotrity of them have it to some degree but Not all.
> 3. Does it seem to be genetic or can a perfectly healthy spider produce wobble/spinning off spring or a wobbling spider produce non-wobblers? That seems in my experience to work both ways. Proabaly because non Spinning spiders can be spinners but you dont notice it. I have seen spinners come out of non spinners and I have seen good non spinners come from Spinners. Again I understand with this explination why some believe it is in all spiders to some degree but I still disagree.
> 4. Does it seem to only affect them over a certain period of their life? Yes Some at birth and others after they are a couple hundred grams. Most are not affected at all or just not much at all as adults.again in my experience.
> 5. Is it detrimental to the overall health of the snake? Not at all unless it is so severe that the snake can not eat. that I have never seen. Those would never make it through the first month of life...