multiple snakes in same tank

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

I think my rambling point really was - no one should feel that they can't disagree with any of the staff members - just because they are staff. Look - Wes already has! ;)

But - I'm also open to hearing other ways of doing things, but do feel strongly that for beginners, we should be consistent and stick to the basics for recommendatiuons until they get the basics down.

---

That is what I got out of your 'ramble':)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by missi182

Thats not the point. You are welcome to your opinion but if it varries from the norm you should expect others to question your opinion. If your not in the mood for it, don't post. You can still help plenty.

---

I'm having a stress day my cat died and I'm not in a good mood next time I'm in a bad mood I'll stay off the forums rather then make my self look like an a s s

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hotshot

I'm having a stress day my cat died and I'm not in a good mood next time I'm in a bad mood I'll stay off the forums rather then make my self look like an a s s

---

I'm sorry about your cat and your bad mood... :( Our golden retriever died a couple of weeks ago and I was in a very sad mood for a number of days; I still am sad... I think you're right though~ Get off-line and allow yourself to feel your sadness; maybe even spend some time with a friend. Take care of yourself Hotshot.

Hotshot, I hope your feeling better soon and your right, when your upset, sad or fustrated, this forum can bring out the worst in some. Listen to Starmom, she knows her stuff;)

Thanks all I'm leaving the fourms for the day gonna go do somthing els SORRY TO EVERYONE. Have a nice day see you tomorrow

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KJLegend

People who say there is absolutely no benefit to keeping more than one snake per enclosure, well there are benefits like less space taken up in your house, less supplies like bulbs, heat pads, water dish, bedding, temp guages, etc.

---

First, those "benefits" are nothing of the sort, they're simply a convenience to you, and a detriment to the animal, not to mention, you get all the same "benefits" by simply not having the second animal (which by your list of "benefits" you're really not interested in taking care of anyhow).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Does visiting a shady pet store every few days count as experience? Then yes, I have seen a bunch of snakes in one cage, seen smaller snakes, dead on the bottom of a pile of ball python hatchlings kept with larger animals.

I never said that one snake will not go to an area because it's already occupied, but there is definitely some competition going on to get one up on the other snake to absorb the most heat from the lamp.

That's just my experience with multiple snakes in one cage.




Where are your facts?

I know you can question us, that's fine, but then tell us WHY they are all together in that termite mound? Is it overcrowded population? Breeding? Best spot perceived from predators? Best area to find rodents quickly? What time of year was it and were they in a group conserving heat and humidity?

And just so we are clear... a social animal in my mind is an animal that needs companionship from another animal of the same species to thrive and keep it's social order in a group, almost to the point of a society, being interactive with known members.

---

THIS is your source? ONE pet store? One lousy pet store?

Wow.

Have you read ONE book? Do you need ONE caresheet to know all there is to know?

Have you considered that there may be different results at another pet store?

Do you ever look up or do you always watch your shoes as you walk?

So, basically, from what I can gleen off your posts, you have nothing factual to base any of your assumptions on. You have seen snakes piling on eachother, deads included which really should eliminate the object from the study to begin with, in a lousy pet store.

Am I correct here? You really have nothing other than YOUR own opinion to base your statements on?

Have YOU ever personally kept more than one snake in a tank? Do you know anyone who has?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

I think my rambling point really was - no one should feel that they can't disagree with any of the staff members - just because they are staff. Look - Wes already has! ;)

---

Ummm, technichally, Wes is seeking the source of the information being posted and he has not yet voiced an opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ctrlfreq

First, those "benefits" are nothing of the sort, they're simply a convenience to you, and a detriment to the animal, not to mention, you get all the same "benefits" by simply not having the second animal (which by your list of "benefits" you're really not interested in taking care of anyhow).

---

How can you be so certain that benefits to the keeper are detrimental to the kept? Do YOU have any personal experience? Or, are you too, merely parroting what has been told to you by others who also have no personal experience?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

THIS is your source? ONE pet store? One lousy pet store?

Wow.

Have you read ONE book? Do you need ONE caresheet to know all there is to know?

Have you considered that there may be different results at another pet store?

Do you ever look up or do you always watch your shoes as you walk?

So, basically, from what I can gleen off your posts, you have nothing factual to base any of your assumptions on. You have seen snakes piling on eachother, deads included which really should eliminate the object from the study to begin with, in a lousy pet store.

Am I correct here? You really have nothing other than YOUR own opinion to base your statements on?

Have YOU ever personally kept more than one snake in a tank? Do you know anyone who has?

---

Word is, pet stores are usually pretty crummy, but I like your enthusiasm. :gj:

Wes, why don't you enlighten us in place of all our non existent experience? :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by missi182

I have noticed that many of the new members to this site, including myself, go through a "phase" where they feel they are at a point that they would love to give advice and help people, but aren't clear on the general rules of giving advice. I have made this mistake myself and felt "attacked" when really other members were voicing their opinions enthusiastically because something that has been said is indeed very, very wrong.

---

Missi, you hit the nail on the head here. I've done the same thing, when I first got to this forum, and I tried to edit my post, but couldn't.

I kinda got upset when being corrected, but you can't. I haven't met one person on here that's attacked another person. Maybe made a comment on husbandry and what-not, but it's never directed to make one person look like an idiot.

I don't give advise out now unless it's already been pounded into my head by joe or some of the others. If I don't know, i'll try and provide a link instead.


:salute:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

I believe it was littleindiangirl who said ball pythons were NOT social. Aren't they found in large numbers inside termite mounds and anthills? How could a non-social animal live in such a way?

---

From what I've read, it's about 2 ball pythons per ACRE, something like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

How can you be so certain that benefits to the keeper are detrimental to the kept? Do YOU have any personal experience? Or, are you too, merely parroting what has been told to you by others who also have no personal experience?

---

I don't know if you've read the rest of this thread, but we've pretty much beat the topic you are bringing right back up, to death. Why are you so hostile? Goodness me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by missi182

I don't know if you've read the rest of this thread, but we've pretty much beat the topic you are bringing right back up, to death. Why are you so hostile? Goodness me.

---

Hostile? Perhaps you have a different definition of that word than some others. Why don't you go double check while I try to educate myself.

Of course, if you are implying that because YOU are finished there is nothing more to say, well, that is another thing entirely.

Which was it? Was your definition wrong or were you saying that when you're done everyone else should be too?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

Hostile? Perhaps you have a different definition of that word than some others. Why don't you go double check while I try to educate myself.

Of course, if you are implying that because YOU are finished there is nothing more to say, well, that is another thing entirely.

Which was it? Was your definition wrong or were you saying that when you're done everyone else should be too?

---

I am not saying in any way that this thread is done, You are arguing points that have already been arguing and trying to pick a fight it seems. You are jumping down peoples throats (like myself) and there is no reason for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skoalbasher

From what I've read, it's about 2 ball pythons per ACRE, something like that.

---

That's interesting. Where did you get that? Seriously, I'd like to do some reading myself.

thanks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

That's interesting. Where did you get that? Seriously, I'd like to do some reading myself.

thanks

---

Ok, I was a little off, it's a little bit less dense than that.

http://www.stevegorzulapresents.com/...thon_ghana.pdf

Says 2.34 ball pythons per 1 hectare, which is more like 2 ball pythons per 2 acres.

So in conclusion, 1 ball python per acre. That's not very sociable I wouldn't think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skoalbasher

Ok, I was a little off, it's a little bit less dense than that.

http://www.stevegorzulapresents.com/...thon_ghana.pdf

Says 2.34 ball pythons per 1 hectare, which is more like 2 ball pythons per 2 acres.

So in conclusion, 1 ball python per acre. That's not very sociable I wouldn't think.

---

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you did not read the report you are citing.

If you had you would have noticed, I hope, two things.

First, they ONLY looked at farmland, a small percentage of what was available.

Second, after finding one or two snakes, they stopped looking for others.

The study, as far as density is concerned, is worthless.

It does not take into account seasonal variations, climatic variations, topographic variations or anything else that would/could effect the population density of ball pythons.

If that's your only source, you're doing yourself a dis-service by quoting it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you did not read the report you are citing.

If you had you would have noticed, I hope, two things.

First, they ONLY looked at farmland, a small percentage of what was available.

Second, after finding one or two snakes, they stopped looking for others.

The study, as far as density is concerned, is worthless.

It does not take into account seasonal variations, climatic variations, topographic variations or anything else that would/could effect the population density of ball pythons.

If that's your only source, you're doing yourself a dis-service by quoting it.

---

I'm wondering if you have any research that might speak to this subject of density in the wild? Also, and more importantly, I'm wondering if you've
found any research speaking to python regius behavior in a captive situation? I am continuing to search, but have thus far found nothing formally researched and published. Given this lack of formal experimentation, I rely on the (informal) experience of the many veteran keepers on this forum. I am comfortable with this choice.
However, I, too, enjoy reading and would appreciate any information you have counter to the experience of some long term keepers and breeders.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by starmom

I'm wondering if you have any research that might speak to this subject of density in the wild? Also, and more importantly, I'm wondering if you've
found any research speaking to python regius behavior in a captive situation? I am continuing to search, but have thus far found nothing formally researched and published. Given this lack of formal experimentation, I rely on the (informal) experience of the many veteran keepers on this forum. I am comfortable with this choice.
However, I, too, enjoy reading and would appreciate any information you have counter to the experience of some long term keepers and breeders.

---

I have nothing other than personal experience as far as keeping multiple snakes in one cage and that is several years old.

It interests me that so many espouse ONE way of doing things as the ONLY way that is proper when NO other way has been tried.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, personally I figure what you do with your snakes is up to you. I just like to know where these people who so freely give advice get that advice from.

It seems that most of them have had, at best, less than half a dozen snakes and have not had them for more than a year or two and are relying on large scale breeders or lousy pet shops to give them the information they then pass on, never having verified any of it, just saying it because someone who does it that way said to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

It interests me that so many espouse ONE way of doing things as the ONLY way that is proper when NO other way has been tried.

---

Who?
I think a good majority of users on this forum eventually "get" that there is no ONE way to do things. I certainly understand that, but from time to time, I like to give recommendations that work for me and many others.

Quote:

---

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, personally I figure what you do with your snakes is up to you. I just like to know where these people who so freely give advice get that advice from.


It seems that most of them have had, at best, less than half a dozen snakes and have not had them for more than a year or two and are relying on large scale breeders or lousy pet shops to give them the information they then pass on, never having verified any of it, just saying it because someone who does it that way said to.

---

I like to look at it this way...
Reading forums with experienced keepers helped me out a great deal.

Well, you might say, "don't always believe what you read"...OK, so what do we believe? What works for us? Do I have to try EVERYTHING at least once in order to get first hand experience? or can I not read about someone else's failures and try to learn from that?

If we didn' rely on the collective knowledge passed down through word of mouth from years past, we'd all have a bunch of dead snakes.

Science is a growing collection of knowledge, proven time and time again. There is nothing wrong with challenging our theories, but it takes more than one guy to say "You didnt do it yourself, so you have no right" to convince many that it is bad advice.

There is absolutely no harm in keeping snakes separate. For all our purposes here, which is to keep things simple, why not?

I imagine the keeping snakes seperate came from many keepers in the past finding PROBLEMS with keeping snakes together, since the common thought of many newbies is to put the two snakes together! Not the other way around.

People tend to put our emotions on any animal in our posession, so who wants to make a snake be lonely in a huge tank? No, they want to get him a friend. If this worked, then we wouldn't have many experienced keepers saying with a resounding "No" to that method.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

I have nothing other than personal experience as far as keeping multiple snakes in one cage and that is several years old.

It interests me that so many espouse ONE way of doing things as the ONLY way that is proper when NO other way has been tried.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, personally I figure what you do with your snakes is up to you. I just like to know where these people who so freely give advice get that advice from.

It seems that most of them have had, at best, less than half a dozen snakes and have not had them for more than a year or two and are relying on large scale breeders or lousy pet shops to give them the information they then pass on, never having verified any of it, just saying it because someone who does it that way said to.

---

No matter what, the points that have been given are good ones. If one of them gets sick, it may spread to the other. And then, like stated before, who's poop is who's?

And in regards to you saying that there are huge amounts of pythons in the same termite mound. I'd like to see some information on that. So far when I look up density of royal pythons, all I get is that document.

If there's something else that says different, I'd like to know.

Connie, that was an awesome post. :bow:

Haha rep? :D j/k j/k...I'm just playin ;)

I tried but it wouldn't let me since I had just Repped you for something else :gj:

Would anyone like to consider, it is hard to understand a lot of the aspects of Royal or Ball pythons in the wild as they have been exploited for so long they have had to adapt to the environment according to our agriculturalisation, and industrialisation as well as considering the fact that so many pythons a year are caught that we have no clear measurement of the "pythons per acre" I have not found any studies of ball pythons in the wild as far as their social habits, but I know there has to be something. Apparently Dr Steve Gorzula has done some videos, maybe they would be descriptive? I plan on going to the library and studying the natural habitat of the ball python and seeing what I can find. We are only humans, we make errors and we are not meant to keep animals in captivity, so no way is the "correct" way, we just do what we can to accomodate these animals that we have bred out of their natural habitat. House cats? They're fine eating cat food and pooing in kitty litter, but I am sure they didn't do it in the wild before we domesticated them! Same thing. And yes, I go through battles with myself about the morality of owning pets constantly. We are a selfish breed. I don't judge anyone of you for wanting to own and breed ball pythons, don't get me wrong. :) I just understand there's no sure way of knowing what is best for an animal that is not naturally in this habitat. (I sometimes think the world'd be better off without us.) Kinda funny I am trying to become a nurse. I have empathy and compassion for all creatures, but I have no love for our so-called 'humanity'

Balls can probably be kept together by experienced keepers, who know what to look for. Keeping balls together isn't for the novice keeper and it is much easier to start out with these specific guidelines. Sorry I don't have my harvard study on hand for that bit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

Balls can probably be kept together by experienced keepers, who know what to look for. Keeping balls together isn't for the novice keeper and it is much easier to start out with these specific guidelines. Sorry I don't have my harvard study on hand for that bit.

---

Hi Jeff~ I follow your logic, but since large breeders and keepers with ample experience advise against keeping more than one ball/royal per enclosure.... well, this does give a message!
On a side note, it is my opinion that calling them royal pythons seems so much more...well...so much less...base :weirdface

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

Balls can probably be kept together by experienced keepers, who know what to look for. Keeping balls together isn't for the novice keeper and it is much easier to start out with these specific guidelines. Sorry I don't have my harvard study on hand for that bit.

---

What? You don't have your thesis handy? I don't believe you then. ;)


:salute:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skoalbasher

What? You don't have your thesis handy? I don't believe you then. ;) :salute:

---

:rofl:

Quote:

---

Would anyone like to consider, it is hard to understand a lot of the aspects of Royal or Ball pythons in the wild as they have been exploited for so long they have had to adapt to the environment according to our agriculturalisation, and industrialization as well as considering the fact that so many pythons a year are caught that we have no clear measurement of the "pythons per acre"

---

These animals come from an area thats agricultural abilities are by our standards primitive and as for industrialization this is nonexistent in the area of Africa that the Ball python inhabits so the affect is little to none. As for the number no there is no firm number. There are so many in wild populations that our hobby has had very little impact on them in the wild. In fact the number of captive bred animals is just a drop in the bucket of animals sold in the US every year Africa exports upward of 10's of thousands of animals every year and those are from a very very small portion of their natural range covering three countries.

Quote:

---

I have not found any studies of ball pythons in the wild as far as their social habits, but I know there has to be something. Apparently Dr Steve Gorzula has done some videos, maybe they would be descriptive? I plan on going to the library and studying the natural habitat of the ball python and seeing what I can find.

---

A very good idea there have been several studies done in recent years on the numbers and population per capita of the Ball python. I'll see if I can find it for you.

Quote:

---

We are only humans, we make errors and we are not meant to keep animals in captivity, so no way is the "correct" way, we just do what we can to accommodate these animals that we have bred out of their natural habitat.

---

There is a right way and a wrong way to keep captive animals. The right way is by being able provide the most basic needs of the animal in the environment , nutrition, and mental stimulus needed to have a healthy animal.

Quote:

---

House cats? They're fine eating cat food and pooing in kitty litter, but I am sure they didn't do it in the wild before we domesticated them! Same thing.

---

Litter boxes are provided to allow the cats innate need to dig eliminate waste and cover said waist. They do do this in the wild when the conditions lend them selves to this behavior. As for the food thing we feed them out of a can cause having your house cat chasing a live bird or rodent for dinner would be a big let down for visitors to your house. But outside cats will still "prey" on natural food items with out a second thought.

Quote:

---

We are a selfish breed. I don't judge anyone of you for wanting to own and breed ball pythons, don't get me wrong. :) I just understand there's no sure way of knowing what is best for an animal that is not naturally in this habitat.

---

Selfish is a strong word we are a high environment impact animal. Our mere existence requires that some other species be affected. It is like this with every living creature from bacteria to us. There is no living creature on this planet that's existence does not affect another.
To know for 100% sure that this way is better for the animal than this other way is near impossible to know for any animal I agree with you there. Because what works for one Ball Python might not for another. We are still learning what it takes to provide for these animals we have fallen in love with.

But through time and trail and error we are learning more and more and in doing so getting closer to providing as good if not better lives for them than in the wild.

Well said, Freakie, very well said. :gj: