New Balls

this needsto be posted outside this picture forum! let people know what has happened!:mad:

We have apologised to Allen numerous times, we both were at fault. I spoke with him earlier and offered to pay half of the vet bill, there is a lot more than just what gets posted. We prefer to take care of a problem like this over the phone as it is 1 on 1, not everyone on a forum. My concern is to fix things with him, not post all day on here.

We have sold a lot of animals and have not had a problem before, now that we have had one, we will make sure it does not happen again.

I would again like to apologize to Allen if I came accrossed as rude on here, I do not like dealing with forums, and a lot of stuff comes acrossed differently than it should. I feel horrible that the female died and another snake got infected. I hate it when ANY snake dies.

From now on we are going to treat all animals, not just imports for internal parasites as a safety with a safe effective wormer/panacure ( panacure is very safe).

As I have said we have had 100's of perfect transactions, and the 1 time when something goes wrong, we are the bad guys.
Good luck to you all with your breedings this year, this is the last time we are posting on here, as no matter what we say or do we cannot win.

ALAN----not ALLEN

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt_11b

What do you want to know?? I'll post whatever info is helpful.

Alan

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Alan, as I said in my previous post, a simple straightforward timeline. When you got the snakes in, when any snake showed illness, when this female died, when these snakes were bred, any other relevent event, etc. I always like to see that sort of thing so the sequence of events doesn't get lost in the emotion of the events and the subsequent fall out.

I think what Josh at J&J said above covers it. I think for me and a lot of people we were just wanting to see him take some responsibility on his end. I think that Josh said what needed to be said and that should clear things up for most people although some people will always judge you about what happened here no matter what. I personally apologize to Josh if what I said was offensive to him. I think a lot of us got caught up in the moment and by only knowing what was posted made judgments accordingly. Both made mistakes. J&J is making a mends that is satisfactory to Alan, it seems, and that is all that matters at this point going forward. I think I speak for almost everyone when I say all of our hearts go out to Alan and hope that things work out for the best for him.

I got the animals on 2-1-08. I left them alone for about 1 week and a half. I went to feed them all and they all ate but the 1400g pastel and the big normal girl. I went another week and tried feeding again, everyone ate and I put a pre killed rat in with the big male pastel, and big female. The male ate the female didn't. I had already introduced the pastel on the 2nd week with the female, because of my wanting to get the snakes breeding. At the end of the 2nd week the female had diareha. It was a bad one all over the back of the tub. I took the male out and the next day I tried feeding again. Everyone ate but the big male and big female.
2 or 3 days later I put the pin in with her because the pastel didn't show any intrest. I left him in for 1 day, she had another bad bowel movement. That weekend I fed everyone. The pin, big pastel, and big female didnt eat. This is when the female started really going down. I could tell she was weak so I was going to take her to the vet on Last Wed. I was checking all the snakes and she was laying upside down, kinda like the pics people post of females after they've been bred. But when I open the tub she was gone. My daughter freaks out. I get her out and bury her in the woods behind my house. ( I should have had an necropsie sp?? done but didn't.)
So I called a few people that have alot more experience than I do and they said take the pastel and pin to the vet. I took them the next day. The vet tried to get poop out by probing but couldn't. She gave me panacur to treat the pin and big pastel just to be safe. So I waited a day or two and the pin pooped. I took the poop in and she tested it and said she found hookworm eggs in the fecal exam. I asked if she thought I should treat all the snakes I got from Josh, and she said yes. Her stance was if the one died and another has parasites then we don't know what else he might have. So I said ok, and now I'm treating all the snakes I got from Josh.
I'm not doing this to be vindictive or anything like that. I just don't want anyone else to be put in the situation I'm in right now. Josh says he's going to change his procedures for taking in and keeping snakes that might be problems. Thats cool I just hope he sticks to it and doesn't let the thoughts of a quick sell make him go back to the old ways.
Also I appreciate that Josh wants to pay half the vet bill. I know now, since I have a little more experience on what to look for in a breeder/seller. I'm going to be more picky when it comes time for me to buy snakes again. I won't go with the cheapest price out there. Because in all honesty thats what I did. I saw he had what I wanted and it was alot cheaper than anyone else at that time. People told me not to do that and shop around but I didn't listen. To those people I'm sorry I didn't take your advice. You better believe I will from now on. I'm still learning with all this but this experience has made me all the more wise. If you need anymore info on this just let me know. And again thanks to everyone for your support on this issue.

Thanks
Alan

Sorry about the way the post is sitting I was trying to indent but couldnt get the dang thing to do it. It indented the whole thing.....

Alan

I think this is very sad however my take here, is that you both share some responsibility the seller for selling a sick animal, and you for being in a rush and breeding an animal that has been in your care only for a short while, not even knowing if it was healthy or not.

My :2cent: If I was getting 1.1 from a breeder tomorrow and the female was ready to breed I would still not breed her to the snake that came with her, until I was certain that BOTH snakes were healthy and this cannot be determine within 1 week or 2.

why did you throw the Pinstripe in if you could see something wasn't right with her?

Thanks for that post, Alan, it really does help to get a better view of the sequence of events.

My response is from me, not as a Mod, nor a representative of staff, just my personal thoughts for what they are worth.

From what I've gotten from this thread this big female was a snake this vendor had just gotten in. They offered her to you as a freebie in this rather expensive package you bought. They seem to have fully disclosed to you that she hadn't been treated or fed or much of anything other than what her weight was.

After a week or so of ownership you put a male morph in with her and she had an explosive loose bowel movement. A few days later you introduced another male morph in with her and yet another loose bowel movement occurred. A fecal sample wasn't, as far as I've read here, taken from either of her bowel movements.

I guess my concerns for you Alan are that there was a rush to breed those expensive males to what amounted to an unknown female and for me, at my level of experience, that's a risk I wouldn't have taken. Personally I don't care what breeder tells me what - I'm not risking anything on the roll of the dice when it comes to quarantine. I'm so very sorry you lost this big female but I can't see where this vendor misled you on her. For me she would have been a "buyer beware" type snake at best.

As far as any other intestinal parasites in the other snakes in this collection - since there was direct exposure to feces from this female, I'm not sure how traceable anything is at this point. I'd have to depend on my own herp vet to give me some sort of reasonable timeline of development of the worms as far as whether it was from feces exposure from that female or a pre-existing condition from the vendor's collection.

I've never purchased from this vendor. Heck I wouldn't know them if I tripped over them in the street. I do know that anytime you buy, rescue or adopt a snake with basically no history, no health record, no idea of it's past husbandry - it's safer for you and for the snakes to overdo on quarantine and just take those extra months to make sure everyone's healthy.

Again, Allan, I'm not slamming you or the this seller or anything like that. I know what it's like to have a snake die so my heart goes out to you. I only posted my thoughts so perhaps in future you might consider going just that bit slower when it comes to purchasing and keeping these type of "mystery" snakes. For the seller, they might want to consider how fast they move out snakes and what sort of "buyer beware" statement goes along with that. Also what advice they are presenting to their customers about quarantine/breeding on these possibly more high risk animals. It does seem they've made a post in this thread that they will institute some new methods to address this particular issue and have offered to help with vet expenses.

I hope you and this seller can come to an agreement that suits both parties in what is naturally an emotionally charged situation.

Did Josh tell you that this female was new to him when he threw her in? If so, did you not feel due to her being new to him that you should not be introducing males to her until you were certain she was well?

Also, after she had the runny stool and you removed the pastel, why didn't you get her tested for parasites before putting the pin with her, considering runny stools aren't normal?

Just trying to understand the big picture.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jnjreptiles

Good luck to you all with your breedings this year, this is the last time we are posting on here, as no matter what we say or do we cannot win.

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So your not going to contribute to our community, but keep the advertising banner to have us as customers?....not cool.

No Josh told me he was putting the female in the package for the sole purpose of me getting to breed this year. If he had told me the female hadn't eaten and he didn't know if she was ok I wouldn't have put anything in with her. But again that was my bad.

And I put the pin in with her after she had one bad bowel movement, I didn't think one was bad and I thought the reason she wasn't eating was because of breeding season. I know I have some blame here also. But I was told "I'll throw this female in so you can get to breeding this season." In my rush I did do some risky things, but if the female had been well none of this would have happened in the first place.

Me and Josh have talked about this and he is going to start keeping unknown females 2 or 3 weeks and treat them all with panacur. Thats all I really wanted to happen, that and to let people know so it doesn't happen to them. Like I said in my last post I'll be more careful in who I buy from now. Don't always go the cheaper route. And again thanks to everyone on this board, the info here is really good.

Alan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt_11b

No Josh told me he was putting the female in the package for the sole purpose of me getting to breed this year. If he had told me the female hadn't eaten and he didn't know if she was ok I wouldn't have put anything in with her. But again that was my bad.

And I put the pin in with her after she had one bad bowel movement, I didn't think one was bad and I thought the reason she wasn't eating was because of breeding season. I know I have some blame here also. But I was told "I'll throw this female in so you can get to breeding this season." In my rush I did do some risky things, but if the female had been well none of this would have happened in the first place.

Me and Josh have talked about this and he is going to start keeping unknown females 2 or 3 weeks and treat them all with panacur. Thats all I really wanted to happen, that and to let people know so it doesn't happen to them. Like I said in my last post I'll be more careful in who I buy from now. Don't always go the cheaper route. And again thanks to everyone on this board, the info here is really good.

Alan

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Glad to see you guys worked something out Alan!:gj:

And dont blame yourself for any of this. Your NEW to it just like other people!

And Josh, Stand up statements Man! just make sure you follow them!!

I stand by my statements 110%, anything we can to to help our animals thrive and have our clients secede we will do.

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Originally Posted by jnjreptiles

I stand by my statements 110%, anything we can to to help our animals thrive and have our clients secede we will do.

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I find it funny that you spelled "succeed" that way.

Secede: means Latin secedere, from sed-, se- apart (from sed, se without) + cedere to go and to withdraw from an organization (as a religious communion or political party or federation) "

So your helping your clients go apart from your company?

I was told I needed to clear something up. I may not have made it clear but I didn't know that the female had only been with Josh for a week. He didn't disclose this info to me. If he had I would not have introduced a male into her tub. I just wanted to clarify that for everyone.

Thanks
Alan

Alan,

I guess you are a better man then me. If he had offered to pay 1/2 of my vet bill after causing such a problem, I would have flipped! I might consider half of a vet bill if he gave me have of my 3 grand back! Why wouldn't 100% of the vet bill be paid?

I don't think this is your fault at all Alan. If I were new, and wanted to get into breeding... and spent 3grand on a slew of snakes.... and the breeder who I trust throws in a female for free specificly so I can get to breeding right away, I would not think twice about trying to breed right away! (of course I know better then that now!)

Rule of thumb: the newbee will do what the breeder says is OK. This breeder did NOT have the animals best interest in mind. They ONLY had the dollar in mind.

Disclaimer: No offense to the people that provide this site! It is a valuable resource and I love it.... I think everyone here rocks!!!

BUT:

Funny how this site... who's founding members often preach NOT to get imported Balls, allow one of the biggest importers to be one of the 4 companies constantly advertised on the site...

Food for thought.


Mike

Mike,

I'm not sure where you said we preach not to get imported animals. Some of my most prized snakes are captive hatched animals who were imported as babies.

I'm not sure where you infer that this adult female was a recent import? I don't recall either Josh or Alan having stated that.

Also, to my knowledge, J&J doesn't breed their own animals, they are distributors, not breeders.

ANY time I purchase an animal, it's up to me as a responsible owner to ask questions before the purchase. And I also would NOT start breeding a new to my collection breedable weight animal until they exited quarantine.

I know these came from the same source, but I like to get my animals settled, get fecal tests done, get them eating well for me.

I believe from what I've read that there's equal culpability on both sides. Josh should have divulged that this was a new animal with no known back ground, but Alan should have probably asked more about the history of the animal. I also would never have put another male with a female that's already had an explosive bowel movement without first getting a clean fecal test on her.

Alan is learning, unfortunately the hard way, just how important it is, especially with the dollars he spent, to ask a lot of questions, and as Sean Bradley likes to say "examine the snake, not the deal". In his excitement to breed this year, he didn't ask the important questions, or take the appropriate action any time you bring in new animals.

J&J has worked out a resolution that Alan is happy with. People make mistakes, and both parties made mistakes. It's how you handle it and learn from it that is the true measure of the type of person you are. I believe that they both have learned, and I see no reason why I wouldn't purchase from J&J if they had an animal that I liked (and I really like the blurry they have up, actually) - but I'd also query him on their back ground and quarantine and get fecal tests done.

I don't see any evidence of them being a bad guy, just someone who probably should have communicated with an eager buyer a little bit better. If 1/2 the vet costs is amenable to Alan, I don't see why any of us should be outraged about the agreement they came to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Mike,

I'm not sure where you said we preach not to get imported animals. Some of my most prized snakes are captive hatched animals who were imported as babies.

I'm not sure where you infer that this adult female was a recent import? I don't recall either Josh or Alan having stated that.

Also, to my knowledge, J&J doesn't breed their own animals, they are distributors, not breeders.

ANY time I purchase an animal, it's up to me as a responsible owner to ask questions before the purchase. And I also would NOT start breeding a new to my collection breedable weight animal until they exited quarantine.

I know these came from the same source, but I like to get my animals settled, get fecal tests done, get them eating well for me.

I believe from what I've read that there's equal culpability on both sides. Josh should have divulged that this was a new animal with no known back ground, but Alan should have probably asked more about the history of the animal. I also would never have put another male with a female that's already had an explosive bowel movement without first getting a clean fecal test on her.

Alan is learning, unfortunately the hard way, just how important it is, especially with the dollars he spent, to ask a lot of questions, and as Sean Bradley likes to say "examine the snake, not the deal". In his excitement to breed this year, he didn't ask the important questions, or take the appropriate action any time you bring in new animals.

J&J has worked out a resolution that Alan is happy with. People make mistakes, and both parties made mistakes. It's how you handle it and learn from it that is the true measure of the type of person you are. I believe that they both have learned, and I see no reason why I wouldn't purchase from J&J if they had an animal that I liked (and I really like the blurry they have up, actually) - but I'd also query him on their back ground and quarantine and get fecal tests done.

I don't see any evidence of them being a bad guy, just someone who probably should have communicated with an eager buyer a little bit better. If 1/2 the vet costs is amenable to Alan, I don't see why any of us should be outraged about the agreement they came to.

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Thank you for that well thought out well explained post.
We are defiantly taking this as a learning experience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Mike,

I'm not sure where you said we preach not to get imported animals. Some of my most prized snakes are captive hatched animals who were imported as babies.

I'm not sure where you infer that this adult female was a recent import? I don't recall either Josh or Alan having stated that.

Also, to my knowledge, J&J doesn't breed their own animals, they are distributors, not breeders.

ANY time I purchase an animal, it's up to me as a responsible owner to ask questions before the purchase. And I also would NOT start breeding a new to my collection breedable weight animal until they exited quarantine.

I know these came from the same source, but I like to get my animals settled, get fecal tests done, get them eating well for me.

I believe from what I've read that there's equal culpability on both sides. Josh should have divulged that this was a new animal with no known back ground, but Alan should have probably asked more about the history of the animal. I also would never have put another male with a female that's already had an explosive bowel movement without first getting a clean fecal test on her.

Alan is learning, unfortunately the hard way, just how important it is, especially with the dollars he spent, to ask a lot of questions, and as Sean Bradley likes to say "examine the snake, not the deal". In his excitement to breed this year, he didn't ask the important questions, or take the appropriate action any time you bring in new animals.

J&J has worked out a resolution that Alan is happy with. People make mistakes, and both parties made mistakes. It's how you handle it and learn from it that is the true measure of the type of person you are. I believe that they both have learned, and I see no reason why I wouldn't purchase from J&J if they had an animal that I liked (and I really like the blurry they have up, actually) - but I'd also query him on their back ground and quarantine and get fecal tests done.

I don't see any evidence of them being a bad guy, just someone who probably should have communicated with an eager buyer a little bit better. If 1/2 the vet costs is amenable to Alan, I don't see why any of us should be outraged about the agreement they came to.

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Robin.. How many other people were sent snakes from josh in the last 2 months? I'd be outraged if it was more then the 7-9 snakes alan got..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Robin.. How many other people were sent snakes from josh in the last 2 months? I'd be outraged if it was more then the 7-9 snakes alan got..

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Why? Are you aware of specific people who also have sick animals from Josh? If I'd purchased from J&J in the last 2 months, mine would have already had fecals done and a wellness visit.

It sounds to me that this female was the infected animal, and exposure to her resulted in positive tests for the pastel and pin.

I'm not suggested that there AREN'T other animals who might have parasites, but I've not seen anyone else report problems with their animals, either here or on the thread on Fauna.

I'm not willing to hang J&J over this one reported case when there were clear mistakes made by BOTH parties. I've never purchased from them, I don't know them. Their advertising dollars with BP.net (as are any other advertiser) are not for profit, but are put back into the site with upgrades, servers, etc. If they are truly a bad guy, we'll know soon enough, and be asked to remove their ads. It's not like we aren't lacking people who would happily fill their banner slot.

Well like I said in other posts I'll not buy from someone that does not produce their own animals. Robin what are the important questions??? I was told the animal was good to go, am I supposed to think automatically that he is a liar?? I don't understand.... You have me confused here. I guess I should have taken every animal and put them all in different rooms for what 3mo maybe then I would have known. I take pride in my husbandry and have otherwise healthy snakes, except from this incident. I don't mean to come across as being mean or anything but I'm confused as to what I could have done if he said this was what I should do. But again I know now not to trust people and to take every animal I get and get a fecal done. So I have learned from this. Again thanks everyone for your response to this thread.

Alan

Scary!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt_11b

Well like I said in other posts I'll not buy from someone that does not produce their own animals. Robin what are the important questions??? I was told the animal was good to go, am I supposed to think automatically that he is a liar?? I don't understand.... You have me confused here. I guess I should have taken every animal and put them all in different rooms for what 3mo maybe then I would have known. I take pride in my husbandry and have otherwise healthy snakes, except from this incident. I don't mean to come across as being mean or anything but I'm confused as to what I could have done if he said this was what I should do. But again I know now not to trust people and to take every animal I get and get a fecal done. So I have learned from this. Again thanks everyone for your response to this thread.

Alan

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Alan, I'll field a few of your concerns too if you don't mind.

Important questions would be things like (and this is every snake, not just that female):

1) did you produce this snake yourself?
2) if not how and when did you acquire it?
3) is it feeding, defecating, shedding normally?
4) has it had any health concerns since you got it in?
5) if it's any other than a normal, what paperwork will accompany the snake guaranteeing the genetics

Just really 5 simple questions that any reputable person should be able to easily answer for you during the purchasing stage of the transaction before they get dollar 1 from you.

Alan, you don't have to think anyone's a liar but you don't have to automatically do what anyone says or follow anyone's "advice". You're new granted but it also comes down to common sense and checking with other people if you aren't sure of your own knowledge level.

Had you for instance posted here saying "I spent all this money, I got in all these snakes and I'm going to toss the boys in with this girl right away" I can guarantee you you'd have been advised not to by most of our membership. Most would have advised caution and proper settling in and quarantine for all the snakes in that shipment.

As far as having to QT snakes one per room, that's not the norm for anyone really that I know of. Had you known this particular female wasn't a long time snake at J&J, then caution might have had you putting her in another room away from that expensive group of morphs until you made sure she was in great shape. I've had snakes QT'ing in my bedroom, my livingroom, heck I used to have a few in the laundry room at one time LOL. Even now if we have a snake in QT and another one comes in, we restart the QT clock on the snake already in there. They aren't allowed any direct contact but just by being in the same room, we just automatically restart that QT time.

Alan, you don't have to distrust people but you do have to trust yourself, develop your own common sense gut instincts and think about what risks are acceptable and what might end up with you and a bunch of really sick snakes. That's not just you, that's all of us, all the time and every time we expand our collections and make decisions for our snakes.

If this site can be of help to you in learning how to make those decisions, well that's a lot of what we are here for in the first place. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt_11b

Well like I said in other posts I'll not buy from someone that does not produce their own animals. Robin what are the important questions??? I was told the animal was good to go, am I supposed to think automatically that he is a liar?? I don't understand.... You have me confused here. I guess I should have taken every animal and put them all in different rooms for what 3mo maybe then I would have known. I take pride in my husbandry and have otherwise healthy snakes, except from this incident. I don't mean to come across as being mean or anything but I'm confused as to what I could have done if he said this was what I should do. But again I know now not to trust people and to take every animal I get and get a fecal done. So I have learned from this. Again thanks everyone for your response to this thread.

Alan

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When he offered the female as free with the pastel, I would have asked for her history and where he got her. But I'm also aware that he's not a breeder, but an importer and re-seller.

All of the animals would have been quarantined in one room with me. None of them would have been introduced until after a 60 day quarantine, by which time the female would have had the explosive bowel movement and a fecal test run along with a vet visit.

The QT is where I think you made your mistake in your eagerness to start breeding. If someone sells me a breedable weight female, I don't assume that means that she is ready to breed without first going through QT with the other animals I brought in. Especially when I know that they import animals and imported animals very often can carry internal parasites if not treated.

If I purchased from Ben Siegel, who also imports and re-sells, I'd be QTing and fecal testing any animal from him as well. He's got a great reputation as an importer and re-seller.

When I purchase from Michael Cole, I know he works with imported animals. I QT and fecal test animals from him.

The mistake that Josh made was that he didn't give full disclosure on the female which unfortunately had a questionable background and had internal parasites.

You've said that you're satisfied with the resolution that you and Josh have come to.

Again - as I said before - I think there are mistakes made by both sides. I thought that you both had come to an amicable resolution.

Thanks for the help frankie I will keep those questions in mind when I make my next purchase. This site is full of good info, I should have come here and asked about the situation but I didn't. I'm really regretting that now. Again thank you for the info.

Alan

The solution is fine with me. I just think I'm going to try and stick with breeders from now on, you know. Takes out the he said she said. Like I said above I'll keep that in mind with my next purchase Robin.

Alan

I'm not sure where you said we preach not to get imported animals. Some of my most prized snakes are captive hatched animals who were imported as babies.

I didn't even know they did this!? So there are breeders in Africa that ship the babies???? I always assumed that they just caught them... and shipped them...

I HATE to misquote people, and if I did that Robin, I appologize. I just remember reading over and over and over again that WC is BAD BAD BAD! and was VERY surprised to see that one of this sites only advertised companies imports!

Mike

Just to clear this up :

We do not import ourselves we buy all our imports from one of the biggest names in the industry.

We deal with gravids, w.c morphs, and special animals. The only normals we do is c.h animals that as Robin said are farmed every spring in Africa. We deal with a lot of specials that are c.h or w.c as that is the only way to get them. A lot of the animals are very odd and have genetic potential, so we like to have them as odd balls are our speciality.

This might be something for a different thread but imports can do very well as long as they are taken care of and set up properly. Most of our w.c animals start feeding within a month or so, (other than during the winter when they don't feed). The best imports to get are bush babies that are between 200-700 grams as they feed well and acclimate a lot better than w.c adults.

Anyone ever having problems with a picky w.c feel free to contact us for advise as we have had great luck with them and are more than willing to help.

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcavana

I didn't even know they did this!? So there are breeders in Africa that ship the babies???? I always assumed that they just caught them... and shipped them...

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Mike there are a few "categories" of snakes....here's a fast run down....

CBB - captive born/bred - these are the snakes that breeders produce from snakes they own and have purposefully mated to produce young

WC - wild caught - these are snakes caught in the wild and imported directly from Africa - a newly discovered morph could come in as a WC for instance or a gravid female, etc.

LTC - long term captive - something you'll see when a WC has been in captivity awhile - this one is tricky since some people consider "long term" to be a month :rolleyes:

CH - captive hatched - there are people in Africa who support their families by going out and capturing gravid female ball pythons - they then keep those snakes until the females lay their clutch - the female is then returned to the wild usually - they hatch the resulting offspring, sort them and fill their orders (to the experienced importers, this is my basic run down and in no way explains this whole process fully)

Captive hatched bp's can do just as well as any captive bred if they are imported safely, set up and started properly by an experienced importer. Like Robin I have a number of CH's here and they do just as well as my CBB's but you have to consider the source with them.

Quote:

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I just remember reading over and over and over again that WC is BAD BAD BAD! and was VERY surprised to see that one of this sites only advertised companies imports!

Mike

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"Only advertised companies"???? We have loads of banners and so forth running so I'm a bit baffled by this comment - perhaps I misunderstood your meaning.

As far as WC's being "BAD, BAD, BAD" they aren't. What they are is WORK, WORK, WORK. :) I've never purchased an adult WC but I know from the two WC adult females I'm rehabilitating that nothing is guaranteed and it's a slow process. What can be "bad" is when people with little experience jump on a "deal of the century" and grab up WC adult snakes expecting to have not one issue with them. WC adults are probably best left to those that know these snakes like the back of their own hands or to someone that is willing to do the immense amount of work it may take to get them going. Some WC's may slip easily into captivity...many do not.

Some people see buying a gravid WC female as a shortcut to a clutch. That may again, be something an experienced keeper can handle. That is not as likely to be something a new keeper can manage or someone not really dedicated to that snake's wellbeing. Remember my Danu was a gravid WC that somebody else got a clutch out of. She ended up a skinny mess. She's taken Mike and I months to even start to bring her back. These kind of shortcuts, in my opinion, have such a high risk of failure for newcomers that I just don't think it's worth it in the end for them or for the snakes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

"Only advertised companies"???? We have loads of banners and so forth running so I'm a bit baffled by this comment - perhaps I misunderstood your meaning.
.

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As far as I know, there are only 4 companies that fill the main banner at the top and the side of the screen (unless my computer is broke) they are 8ball, J&J reptile, Ralph Davis, and RBI. That is what I meant.


Thank you very much for the discription of the different sources. It was very educational!

Jas summed this up the best - "Flippers suck" - Period...Why in your banner ad does it state "Specializing in high quality C.B. reptiles"?...C.B. = Captive Bred - Does it not? Your no breeder - Your a flipper...I'm really suprised that so many people support flippers...Oh well - That's my opinion...
BT

To think I almost sent an email a month back for some snakes. Glad I held that back. Sorry to hear about your loss Allen.

It is ridiculous to sell a snake 1 week after having it. There is no QT. Not even time to maybe establish eating?

Sickening.

And thats what I've learned BT. I'll always go with a true blue breeder from now on. I learned my lesson, on resellers. I'll only support breeders that produce their own animals. And thanks brimstone.

Alan