breeding the youngsters!!

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Originally Posted by Seneschal

Yes, you would have to watch the animal very closely and know what you're doing, but in theory it sounds very possible and not dentrimental to the animal's health.

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You state that in theory, it sounds very possible and not detrimental to the animal's health. Call me picky, but I think more than 1 successful pairing and offspring are needed before it can be ruled as "not detrimental".

There is just plainly not enough evidence to state otherwise. The chance that it is detrimental is still there until it can be proven over and over as being safe. Whether that's just Jas, or other keepers.

If these two females are exceptional, with those genetics that make them grow like weeds and breed at a year of age, then maybe it's a project to see if it is actually nature vs. nurture. That is something I am keenly interested in.

Did Jas' awesome skills get them to breed early, or was it their genetics that leads them to early maturing? Only time and practice will tell.

someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought i read something in a thread a while back about jas doing this successfully before.... it's not the first year... he does have some experience with it.

Connie,
In that particular quote I was referring to the theory that it was possible and not detrimental to the animal's health to feed small meals very frequently to bring, for an example, a very early 07 female up to breeding size for the same year breeding season.

However, I'm under the impression that Jas is an experienced hand at this...I may be wrong, I digress, but that's my belief.

I was also basing my opinion on the looks of the female post-laying he posted a picture of; she looked healthy, if a bit lean, and didn't seem to be at all in bad health.

I do think it would be very, very interesting to see how the young females' babies mature; in humans, having sex at increasingly young ages has reduced the age at which we are fertile, and in flies it is possible to extend the lifespan threefold within 15 generations by forcing the flies to breed at later ages. (This was done by scientists as an experiment.) In theory by doing something similar humans, snakes...anything...could be genetically altered into earlier sexual maturity or longer life spans. This is an interesting endeavour on Jas' part and I'd like to keep updated on the status of both the mothers and the babies.

Like I said...everything I said in my other post is only my opinion, observations, and conjecture from what I have seen, heard, and gathered through research, all put together into a theory. I try to think anything I write and post on here through completely...but you do raise a good point.

As I said; in theory it's entirely possible and non-detrimental to the animals' health...but the best way to prove or disprove that theory--the only way in fact--is to experiment multiple times and consistently get concrete results. In conclusion...

Jas: The only way we can get a concrete answer is if you keep breeding like you have been. Keep it up, and keep us posted on how everybody does, please!

I support the scientific method!

This is a very good discussion.

I have a good question.

What is keeping other people from breeding their first year females? Is it the fact that they are not successful in the dramatic weight gain, or is it their idea of "what is correct" telling them not to breed their, weight appropriate, first year female.

I am not necessarily looking for written answers, just creating something to think about.

How many of you have even been able to get the females weight up so quickly and passed on breeding?

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Anyone else got 07's breeding yet?!?!

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the youngest i got going now is an '06 pastel female that started breeding this year in november '07 at 1 year and 2 months old and 1100g. she has locked up with a pastel male 4 times and i think she is producing follicles because she is getting bigger. this is my first year breeding so i dont really understand the process but i would never have tried to breed her if i thought her health was at risk. she is a very agressive feeder, very lean and was a solid 1100g at first breeding.
from everything i have read and was told from the experienced people at bp.net, she will not produce eggs if she is not mature or if it will put her health at risk. also a large or overweight female has the same or greater risk of becoming egg bound as a younger female.
i love and respect all my snakes(and reptiles) as pets and would never risk their health to try for a quick clutch for a quick buck. also i dont power feed and would not try purposely to breed small females. if they get to a reasonable breeding size on the same one small rat a week feeding schedule as every other snake and are in great health then why not try them. as long as you got the time, resources and knowledge.
sure i could have waited untill next year and maybe get a bigger clutch but knowing this female pastel she'll wolf down a rat every week until next breeding season and do it all over again at an even larger weight than this year. but if not then ill give her time off.
so thats my reasoning and predictions but being my first year only time will tell...

18 months was the earliest I got a female to successfully become gravid.

My rule is 1400-1500 grams but everyone has their way of doing things.

As in anything in life you should know the rules before you try to bend them.

Jas seems to know what he is doing, has the experience to back it up and has been successful at it.

What I have found is the odds of a female not becoming gravid is higher when she is younger. That doesn't mean she can't, just that many won't.

Also the bigger she is the more eggs you'll get:gj:

Like many people said...if it's not working(for Jas) why he can keep breeding his animals young?

What I think everyone miss to point out is that Jas knows how to take care of animals. He can't just powerfeed them and breed them successfully coz fat animals hardly breed, good size animals do breed. Hat off to you Jas. Maybe you should start selling your own line of feeder rodent :D

How do you get '07's large enough to breed without powerfeeding? If you are powerfeeding them, is powerfeeding now OK and an acceptable thing to do?

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

How do you get '07's large enough to breed without powerfeeding? If you are powerfeeding them, is powerfeeding now OK and an acceptable thing to do?

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I would like to know what do you consider power feeding?

In all honesty I have younger animals that I feed more often, every 4-5 days... they get 30-40g adult mice or rats.... Their growth has been incredible....and their appetite is still just as ravenous as my snakes on a 7 day schedule. I definitely don't recommend that feeding schedule to everyone, but it works for me.

To some what I do may be considered power feeding, but to me...power feeding would be a 4-5 day schedule with the biggest rats you can stuff a snake with....however, more times than not those snakes eventually will go off feed.

I also feed younger snakes on a 5 day schedule. As Tim pointed out to me in Birmingham, younger snakes in the wild eat as often as they can to get as big as they can quickly to be less likely to be prey themselves.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

How do you get '07's large enough to breed without powerfeeding? If you are powerfeeding them, is powerfeeding now OK and an acceptable thing to do?

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LMAO! I have close to 500 ball pythons. Some MAYBE 3-4 will get up to breeding weight in 8-9 months. The others are just as Tiny as Yours are.. Here is the deal, If they eat Feed Them!! I feed Small Rats to all of my breeders. Some eat one a week some eat two a week some eat four.. Pay less attention to the forums and more toward your snakes, And you'll figure it all out..

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

LMAO! I have close to 500 ball pythons. Some MAYBE 3-4 will get up to breeding weight in 8-9 months. The others are just as Tiny as Yours are.. Here is the deal, If they eat Feed Them!! I feed Small Rats to all of my breeders. Some eat one a week some eat two a week some eat four.. Pay less attention to the forums and more toward your snakes, And you'll figure it all out..

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Couldn't have said it better...:gj:

wow 500 bps.

even within my small collection i have noticed different rates of growth between balls on the same feeding schedule. some are more agressive feeders than others and some just grow faster than others. i feed a small rat to my bps every 7 days and i have noticed that it is very possible to get a female to breeding weight within one year with that schedule. obviously not all of them will make make weight within a year but for me there is no rush and if they do make it by then then why not try them out?

Jeez Jas, I didnt know you had numbers like that. Im working on what you told me, I'm getting better at talking to them. I still have a long way to go. But it sure is more fun already:banana:

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Pay less attention to the forums and more toward your snakes, And you'll figure it all out..

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Rad advice. I have snakes to feed!

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Originally Posted by Gib

Thats a nice post Mark...but from im sittin im not seeing any of open minded tolerance thing your talking about...

i got asked to come over and get active on this board by some friends..and Ive never seen such a militant bunch on any forum before.....

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Who are you talking about? People here are generally open-minded to ideas that do not threaten the animals' health and well-being. If you're, say, advocating something that's glaringly wrong for many reasons, such as the houseing together of multiple BPs of varying sexes and ages, sure most of the forum would slam ya. But I think that this thread in particular shows how openminded people are here. Jas isn't being slammed and hated for his style.

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Originally Posted by Petboy15

I love you Jas!!! One day, I wanna meet up with you and pick your brain, dude. 07 girls breeding...:bow::bow::bow::bow:

Congrats man:gj:

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I would watch it...picking a brain like Jas' could be dangerous!

:8:


Rock On Jas!

:cool:

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

I would watch it...picking a brain like Jas' could be dangerous!

:8:


Rock On Jas!

:cool:

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Na, It wouldnt take that much picking lol! I'm a dimwit remember??

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Na, It wouldnt take that much picking lol! I'm a dimwit remember??

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Only a dimwit to the untrained eye, upon further inspection, EUREKA!!!!

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Originally Posted by patthesnakeman

Only a dimwit to the untrained eye, upon further inspection, EUREKA!!!!

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Great! Now I'm a friggin Vacuum...

hahahah you suck!!!

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Originally Posted by patthesnakeman

hahahah you suck!!!

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:gj:

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Na, It wouldnt take that much picking lol! I'm a dimwit remember??

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I am easily amused by little things...can I pick your brain also?

:nerd:

Some my bestest friends are dimwits. :oops:

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

I am easily amused by little things...can I pick your brain also?

:nerd:

Some my bestest friends are dimwits. :oops:

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You can pick anything you want!!! I'm all yours...:rofl:

Hey, hey now! There will be no picking of anything! This is a family friendly forum - sheesh! Can't take you guys anywhere! :P

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Great! Now I'm a friggin Vacuum...

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LMAO!

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Originally Posted by JenH

LMAO!

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You want some too??? LOL..
Sorry Robin! (jealous old gal) :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

You can pick anything you want!!! I'm all yours...:rofl:

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:wuv:

that's hot.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Hey, hey now! There will be no picking of anything! This is a family friendly forum - sheesh! Can't take you guys anywhere! :P

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C'mon now...Jas and I have been behaing really well...lately. We just wanna have a lil fun. :oops:

;)

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

You want some too??? LOL..
Sorry Robin! (jealous old gal) :rolleyes:

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what happened to being all mine???

:rolleyes:

and jealousy shows its bitter claws!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by patthesnakeman

and jealousy shows its bitter claws!!!!!!!!!

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Those Claws are not bitter.. They are Beautiful!:cool:

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Those Claws are not bitter.. They are Beautiful!:cool:

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smooth like butter jas, smooth like butter

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Those Claws are not bitter.. They are Beautiful!:cool:

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Jas you are absolutely wonderful!

:blowkiss:

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

C'mon now...Jas and I have been behaing really well...lately. We just wanna have a lil fun. :oops:

;)

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Yes, you have! :D

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Originally Posted by patthesnakeman

and jealousy shows its bitter claws!!!!!!!!!

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Meme and I :love: each other, no jealousies!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Meme and I :love: each other, no jealousies!

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:gj:

:hug:

You've given me confidence, Jas. I have an '06 female who's hovering around 1100g. I feel that she is ready, and we are going to go for it. She's a great eater, actually she has literally never refused a meal since I got her last year. So here we go!

Go for it!! Best of luck....

Jas, man you need to stop this controversial stuff.... your making people think outside the box! :O:)

Go figure. The two lovebirds (or lovesnakes?) are locked up already. :)

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

Go figure. The two lovebirds (or lovesnakes?) are locked up already. :)

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nice!

Cool! :banana: Gives me some inspiration as well.

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Go for it!! Best of luck....

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Jas for president :salute::salute: :rofl:

I see no issue at all with his methods, I think the only possible negative side could come from brand new snake owners who want to get into breeding seeing this and deciding, "oh he does it so it's just peachy" when they don't even know their animals yet.
Something you learn in this hobby is that there are a ton of different ways to do something, it doesn't mean it's right or wrong.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Jas for president :salute::salute: :rofl:

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Yeah, I soooo wouldn't go that far. :wuv: (luv ya Jas :blowkiss: )

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

Yeah, I soooo wouldn't go that far. :wuv: (luv ya Jas :blowkiss: )

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I wonder if he would do any better then the people running now :P

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Originally Posted by joepythons

I wonder if he would do any better then the people running now :P

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Probably, at least he's consistant!

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Originally Posted by JLC

Beautifully said, Kara!! (As usual!! :love: )

I'd like to add this note to this thread:

This forum is primarly about helping those new to the hobby to learn how to keep and care for their animals...and once they get comfortable with that...maybe they can consider breeding and learn the basics of that here as well.

While we all know there are many different ways of keeping these beautiful animals, what we try most to impart here are the methods that are the simplest and most proven methods to have a successful experience. Every choice we make carries risks....our job is to minimize those risks as best we can. The more we personally know from our own experiences, the more we can step outside that box with minimal risks.

SO...for the new person just wanting to learn and understand how to breed their snakes....please, please don't point them to this thread. While John's methods are fascinating to discuss, they are NOT the norm, and they carry much higher risks for the uninitiated than the more standard methods of breeding we tend to endorse.

I would liken' John's thread here to the professional stunt men who make fun shows for us to watch on TV. "Don't try this at home...we are highly trained professionals and know what we're doing....you'd likely get your head ripped off if you tried it!" :P

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I remember when I first joined, that f/t feeding was hailed as the safest way to feed ball pythons. It wasn't until a certain legendary bp.netter whom I won't name came on and professed the safe methods of feeding live, which is now the norm for the community.

How does that relate to this topic? Well...

I would rather that this forum support INNOVATION (which I think Jas is doing), and be a leader in the flow of information on the captive husbandry of ball pythons, rather than just a site that regurgitates the simplest, most popular trends. Doing that would at least keep some of the more experienced members around, as opposed the recent trend has seen a decline of those types of members posting regularly...

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I remember when I first joined, that f/t feeding was hailed as the safest way to feed ball pythons. It wasn't until a certain legendary bp.netter whom I won't name came on and professed the safe methods of feeding live, which is now the norm for the community.

How does that relate to this topic? Well...

I would rather that this forum support INNOVATION (which I think Jas is doing), and be a leader in the flow of information on the captive husbandry of ball pythons, rather than just a site that regurgitates the simplest, most popular trends. Doing that would at least keep some of the more experienced members around, as opposed the recent trend has seen a decline of those types of members posting regularly...

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:gj::gj::gj: Agreed. If all the information one can get from here can be read in an $8 python book, there wouldn't be a point beside for looking at the pretty pictures. Here's to experienced innovation and posting your results.:salute:

huh??? Aside from size, isn't age an important consideration when deciding on when to breed? I know jas is an attention whore, but I really didn't expect everyone to blindy start congratulating him and patting him on the back...:rolleyes:

I haven't been here in a while, so please let me know if he's been declared the resident expert...

'Cause I like the other one better...

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Originally Posted by sho220

huh??? Aside from size, isn't age an important consideration when deciding on when to breed? I know jas is an attention whore, but I really didn't expect everyone to blindy start congratulating him and patting him on the back...:rolleyes:

I haven't been here in a while, so please let me know if he's been declared the resident expert...

'Cause I like the other one better...

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Name calling is not necessary. If you disagree with John's methods, then please do so in a mature fashion.

If you read the thread, you'll notice that this is something that is not for everyone. It's posted for you to glean any information from that may be of use in your husbandry. If you find it lacking, then fine.

No one is 'blindly' following John, and I'm sorry if that's what you got from this thread. John has his way of doing things and sharing what works for him.

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Originally Posted by sho220

huh??? Aside from size, isn't age an important consideration when deciding on when to breed? I know jas is an attention whore, but I really didn't expect everyone to blindy start congratulating him and patting him on the back...:rolleyes:

I haven't been here in a while, so please let me know if he's been declared the resident expert...

'Cause I like the other one better...

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I Love attention!! If You sho220, Dont know how to breed bps Thats Your problem Son!! :rofl: