Husbandry vent

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The vent is people saying you can't deviate from the care sheets. That is what I have been saying all along. I said keeping snakes like the care sheet says will be fine for your snake. However people need to know you can deviate from it.

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No one says you can't deviate from caresheet seasoned keepers will answer any type of advanced husbandry questions when people ask however they will still recommend the same proven to work optimal setting to new owners that experience issues. Why because it's proven to work with new owner. Guiding people with issues is different than opening peoples mind to alternative ways to keep animals.

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Yet as you can see some are stuck on the care sheets and will not even consider anything else.

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So??? If what they do works for them they don't have to try anything else do they?

Because I like to try new things and experiment it does not mean everyone should, and if they don't I fail to see how it's an issue? Does it affect you? Because the way others keep their animals sure does not affect me :gj:

If I was tired of people keeping their animal any other way than the one found in caresheet I think I would not be on a forum if it bothered me that much because a lot do and if they are comfortable with that and it works for their animal there is nothing wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by JLC

Well, good luck getting anyone to say what you want how you want them to say it. I've been trying for over ten years and haven't made any progress. Thing is...as soon as you convince one person to be more flexible on an idea, someone else new joins up with the same old inflexibility...on ANY topic, not just BP husbandry.

You'll see whatever you choose to focus on. There are plenty of folks here who advocate for flexibility on husbandry methods, while at the same time, coaxing beginners with the simplest "tried-and-true" methods. But if you focus on the stuff that irritates you, then it will seem like that's all that anyone is doing.

Sometimes, it really, really feels to me like all anyone ever does here is complain about everyone else. Of course that isn't true...but if the center of your back itches and you can't reach it...all of a sudden, it's the only thing you can focus on, even though the rest of your body feels perfectly fine. There's always something going on that we don't like. We can choose to focus all our attention on it...or we can choose to focus on the positive side of things that is ALSO always there. And we can also choose to be a part of the solution to our irritants, or we can choose to complain about them and hope someone else figures out how to fix them.

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I agree with you. Some people seem to think I am trying to make people change their ways. I am not doing that at all. I am just trying to say there are other ways to do things. In the end it is all about the animals involved. If this whole thing just gets a couple people thinking about other ways of doing things and debating the way we all do things then it is a win for everyone. There is not one person in this world that knows everything about ball pythons. That is why debates are good and listening to other views is good.

You were nice in the other thread so I won't go nuts here. So some people don't deviate from care sheets. You've made your point. You've also stated again and again what you think is proper husbandry. So now what is your further objective? Get everyone to agree with your methods?

Yes, there is more than one way to skin the cat. We know that already.

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

Quick question. You seem to be referencing their natural habitat quite a bit, while I don't own a BP I personally try to replicate the natural habitiat of the reptiles I keep, that being said what type of enclosure are all of your BP's in?

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I was talking temps and day/night cycle only.

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Originally Posted by hungba

You were nice in the other thread so I won't go nuts here. So some people don't deviate from care sheets. You've made your point. You've also stated again and again what you think is proper husbandry. So now what is your further objective? Get everyone to agree with your methods?

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No I do not want anyone to agree with my methods. I just want people to open their minds to other things. I am not trying to change anyone methods. What works for one does not work for all.

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Originally Posted by bondo

I was talking temps and day/night cycle only.

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Judging by that answer I am going to assume (until you correct me) that you are using a rack system. That being said your entire arguement on temps based on the temps in Africa is a little irrivalent being that a plastic tub with some wood chips and a water bowl is nothing like their native habitat. There is no way you can create the temp fluctuations in a rack system that an entire area in the wild sees on a daily basis. There are tons of variables in the wild that are eliminated in an enclosure. You can't make bold statements regarding natural habitat then say I am only referring to specific things.

When I'm talking with experienced keepers I have an understanding that they may do something that isn't typically recommended on caresheets, but when I'm talking to new keepers (and this goes for any species I keep) I will state it as though the caresheet cannot or should not be deviated from. This is because experimentation and questioning tried-and-true methods can be really dangerous if someone is doing it without much experience.

For me, there are a lot of husbandry topics that fall into the "If you have to ask, the answer is no" category. For example, if someone asked me if they could keep their BP with an ambient temperature in the 60's I would tell them absolutely not, the snakes will get RIs, because just asking that question that way is a pretty strong indicator that someone is new and looking for ways to save on heating equipment. Note I'm not saying that YOU shouldn't do it; it clearly works for you. But the difference is you didn't come here asking if you could do it that way, you came here telling everyone else why exactly it's okay to do it that way.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that frankly, not everyone has the experience or interest level in this hobby to question and debate caresheets. It may be annoying when someone who's had a BP for two weeks tries to tell you you're killing snakes by keeping them at low temps, but it's safer than that new keeper deciding it's okay to experiment with keeping their snake in the 60's without the experience to do it safely. With any species you work with you're always going to get 16 year olds with their first exotic pet coming in and trying to tell experienced keepers that they know best; that is never going to change.

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Originally Posted by bondo

No I do not want anyone to agree with my methods. I just want people to open their minds to other things. I am not trying to change anyone methods. What works for one does not work for all.

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Well people DO open their mind to other things. Just not YOUR thing. You say you aren't trying to make people agree with you, but you are just continually arguing for your methods, which judging from the response isn't really popular. You aren't really saying anything to get people to open their minds to alternatives. Quite to the contrary, you are just continually saying why you are right, but tagging a line "but if it works for you, ok". Ironically, you seem to be quite close minded yourself.

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

Judging by that answer I am going to assume (until you correct me) that you are using a rack system. That being said your entire arguement on temps based on the temps in Africa is a little irrivalent being that a plastic tub with some wood chips and a water bowl is nothing like their native habitat. There is no way you can create the temp fluctuations in a rack system that an entire area in the wild sees on a daily basis. There are tons of variables in the wild that are eliminated in an enclosure. You can't make bold statements regarding natural habitat then say I am only referring to specific things.

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Well I don't have access to termite mounds or the weather needed outside. Maybe I could put termites in my basement so they can make mounds. I can only do things that are in my power to do. There is no way to reproduce Africa in northern WI.

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Originally Posted by hungba

Well people DO open their mind to other things. Just not YOUR thing. You say you aren't trying to make people agree with you, but you are just continually arguing for your methods, which judging from the response isn't really popular. You aren't really saying anything to get people to open their minds to alternatives. Quite to the contrary, you are just continually saying why you are right, but tagging a line "but if it works for you, ok". Ironically, you seem to be quite close minded yourself.

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I am really not trying to come across as the ball python genius. I am not trust me. They continually surprise me. I am not close minded at all I don't think. I am fine with people going by the care sheet. I even said new people should not run cold temps. I am just throwing this info out there. It works for me and others I know. I am not in anyway saying people need to do this. This debate is me defending my position not trying to get others to change.

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Originally Posted by bondo

Well I don't have access to termite mounds or the weather needed outside. Maybe I could put termites in my basement so they can make mounds. I can only do things that are in my power to do. There is no way to reproduce Africa in northern WI.

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Correct, however a BP does not spend 100% of its life in a termite mound. They....wait for it... even climb trees. So you can sit here and respond the way that you did which is fine, but you can do more to simulate a naturalistic environment than throwing an animal in a tub. Now I have pointed out my opinion on racks on here before. That is my opinion. Tons of people have great success with using racks and that is great. I just simply don't like them/agree with them (again my opinion). The reason I brought it up on here again is because you keep referencing their "natural" habitat. I know I know you just meant temps, but again it kind of makes the point invalid.

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

Correct, however a BP does not spend 100% of its life in a termite mound. They....wait for it... even climb trees. So you can sit here and respond the way that you did which is fine, but you can do more to simulate a naturalistic environment than throwing an animal in a tub. Now I have pointed out my opinion on racks on here before. That is my opinion. Tons of people have great success with using racks and that is great. I just simply don't like them/agree with them (again my opinion). The reason I brought it up on here again is because you keep referencing their "natural" habitat. I know I know you just meant temps, but again it kind of makes the point invalid.

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I am cool with your opinion on racks. I am cool with everyone's opinions here. I am just saying it is impossible to recreate their environment. A zoo is a big place but they can't do it either. If a snake is in a tank or cage you aren't reproducing their natural environment. You can get it closer in a cage but no one is actually reproducing the environment. There is only so much we can do.

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Originally Posted by bondo

I am cool with your opinion on racks. I am cool with everyone's opinions here. I am just saying it is impossible to recreate their environment. A zoo is a big place but they can't do it either. If a snake is in a tank or cage you aren't reproducing their natural environment. You can get it closer in a cage but no one is actually reproducing the environment. There is only so much we can do.

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I agree with that. We can only do so much, and how much each person chooses to do is up to them. I get it. If the animal is healthy that is great.

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

I agree with that. We can only do so much, and how much each person chooses to do is up to them. I get it. If the animal is healthy that is great.

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I agree with that. Also hats off to you for going above and beyond.

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Originally Posted by bondo

I agree with that. Also hats off to you for going above and beyond.

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And to you for keeping this thread civil, I have seen some go downhill pretty fast haha.

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Originally Posted by bondo

I agree with you. Some people seem to think I am trying to make people change their ways. I am not doing that at all.

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Well that's a straight up shenanigans. You told 8_Ball in his thread that "Until husbandry changes the snake will suffer" just because he chooses to have his ambient temps at 81-84 degrees.

When you're telling someone that their animal will suffer, you're telling them they're doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

Well that's a straight up shenanigans. You told 8_Ball in his thread that "Until husbandry changes the snake will suffer" just because he chooses to have his ambient temps at 81-84 degrees.

When you're telling someone that their animal will suffer, you're telling them they're doing something wrong.

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That is so different then this it isn't even funny. He said he had a problem with his snake being dehydrated then said he wouldn't change his husbandry. Then he changed his story again and said it wasn't dehydrated. If you have a snake dehydrated then that is a husbandry problem. If it works then so be it. However originally he made it sound like it wasn't working.

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Originally Posted by bondo

That is so different then this it isn't even funny. He said he had a problem with his snake being dehydrated then said he wouldn't change his husbandry. Then he changed his story again and said it wasn't dehydrated. If you have a snake dehydrated then that is a husbandry problem. If it works then so be it. However originally he made it sound like it wasn't working.

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No, it's not funny at all. I'm not here to argue with you. You know exactly what you said and now you're acting like it never been said. You're hypocrite.

You want to keep your snakes at whatever temps that you keep them, that's your business. But don't be coming here telling people that their snake is SUFFERING because they're keeping their snake at a normally accepted temperature range.

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Originally Posted by bondo

I am really not trying to come across as the ball python genius.

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Oh you don't have to worry about that, that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

No, it's not funny at all. I'm not here to argue with you. You know exactly what you said and now you're acting like it never been said. You're hypocrite.

You want to keep your snakes at whatever temps that you keep them, that's your business. But don't be coming here telling people that their snake is SUFFERING because they're keeping their snake at a normally accepted temperature range.

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All you have done is argue. You made scenarios and I made them back and you call me a mororn for using a scenario. Read this carefully. I AM TELLING NO ONE HOW TO KEEP THEIR SNAKES. I am not yelling I just want you to understand. If someone says that their snake has issues and then says I won't change anything to fix it then there is an issue there. I still feel 83-84 ambient temp is too high. However as I said 30000000000000 times now if it works then cool. As stated 3000000000000 he said it wasn't working at the time. If you want to debate I am cool with that. If you disagree with me I am cool with that. If you hate me I am cool with that. Telling me what I said that wasn't true I am not cool with. There was a reason I said the snake was suffering I didn't just make it up. This is unbelievable. Here is the statement from the other post: You said your snake was dehydrated. So if you continue with your husbandry then the snake is suffering. The snake isn't doing anything wrong the snake keeper is. 82 ambient and 92 hot is too hot. At a minimum at least try tweaking your methods a little to fix the problem instead of saying I am doing nothing wrong but my snake has something wrong with it.

Lets play nice and avoid the name calling shall we folks? :rolleyes:

I'd hate to have to start handing out infractions. :please:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Lets play nice and avoid the name calling shall we folks? :rolleyes:

I'd hate to have to start handing out infractions. :please:

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I agree let's all have a big group hug. :D

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Originally Posted by bondo

I agree let's all have a big group hug. :D

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No.

Come on hungba you need a hug. LOL

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Originally Posted by bondo

So data should not be based on averages? what should it be based on? This is the average for Bangui.
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The hottest day average low is 69 and the coldest is 65. That would put the average low for the entire year at 67. Yaoundé, Cameroon average low for the year is 68. The average low for the year in Khartoum, Sudan is 73.5. The average low for the entire year in Tambacounda, Senegal is 72.5. I know what you are going to say.

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I would say that the above information is only 2/365 accurate in the interpretation of the average low temperatures of these cities, and if the remaining 363 days were linear between those two points, it'd be 100% accurate. However, weather is not linear and one cannot simply average the low on the hottest day and the low on the coldest day to extrapolate the average low for the entire year. ;)

Taking two average low temp data points from each month (the 1st and the 15th - still only 24/365 accurate) leads to the following annual low temp averages:
Bangui, Central African Republic: 70.79 (+3.79)
Yaoundé, Cameroon: 68.50 (+0.50)
Khartoum, Sudan: 76.88 (+3.38)
Tambacounda, Senegal: 74.79 (+2.29)
Accra, Ghana: 75.21 (-0.29)

As shown, the majority of the year's average low temps in these cities is warmer than simply the average between the two min/max dates. This simply means that it's warmer more than it's cooler during the year in these cities (for the most part). :)

Not that all of the analysis matters much in the grand scheme of things when it comes to keeping our animals - I'm just a sucker for accurate information and love to data mine these kinds of things (to a fault). :gj:

Now - back to the hugging and koombaya! :grouphug:

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

I would say that the above information is only 2/365 accurate in the interpretation of the average low temperatures of these cities, and if the remaining 363 days were linear between those two points, it'd be 100% accurate. However, weather is not linear and one cannot simply average the low on the hottest day and the low on the coldest day to extrapolate the average low for the entire year. ;)

Taking two average low temp data points from each month (the 1st and the 15th - still only 24/365 accurate) leads to the following annual low temp averages:
Bangui, Central African Republic: 70.79 (+3.79)
Yaoundé, Cameroon: 68.50 (+0.50)
Khartoum, Sudan: 76.88 (+3.38)
Tambacounda, Senegal: 74.79 (+2.29)
Accra, Ghana: 75.21 (-0.29)

As shown, the majority of the year's average low temps in these cities is warmer than simply the average between the two min/max dates. This simply means that it's warmer more than it's cooler during the year in these cities (for the most part). :)

Not that all of the analysis matters much in the grand scheme of things when it comes to keeping our animals - I'm just a sucker for accurate information and love to data mine these kinds of things (to a fault). :gj:

Now - back to the hugging and koombaya! :grouphug:

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No wind chills or heat index? :rofl:

This should help (or maybe not...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Ghana

Record highs for any month never go above 90 degrees. Ever.

I am also one of those who keeps my temperatures lower than what is typically recommended because experience has shown that in my situation that is what works better for me. If keeping your temperatures higher works better for you, then by all means use them. Just be careful not to cook your snake. There are many paths to success, don't be afraid to experiment and use whatever works best in your situation. Listen to your snakes and they will tell you what they like.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

This should help (or maybe not...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Ghana

Record highs for any month never go above 90 degrees. Ever.

I am also one of those who keeps my temperatures lower than what is typically recommended because experience has shown that in my situation that is what works better for me. If keeping your temperatures higher works better for you, then by all means use them. Just be careful not to cook your snake. There are many paths to success, don't be afraid to experiment and use whatever works best in your situation. Listen to your snakes and they will tell you what they like.

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I'll bet that the sun beating down on the ground warms it higher than that though.

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Originally Posted by Jhill001

I'll bet that the sun beating down on the ground warms it higher than that though.

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This is being made waaay to complex than it really is.

Termite mounds vary between 84 and 90 degrees. The "design" of these has been relentlessly studied...especially in regards to how it regulates temperature...even when temps skyrocket or plummet outside of the structure. Studies on regius have shown that they seek burrows within this temperature range during the day....and no I'm not going to provide the study or a link to it. I think people would be better off if they took the time to study the aspect of the'r animal's natural history rather than having it spoon fed to them.

Ball pythons are mainly nocturnal, and perhaps nominally crepuscular. When they go out to hunt or to search for mates, they expose themselves to temperatures varying anywhere from the mid 80s to the high 60s - depending on the time of the year and the weather and the time at night they decide to take a stroll.

Can you keep your ball python at an overall ambient temperature with no hot spot? I guess.

Can you keep your ball python in an environment where it can choose a wide range of temps? Probably a better idea.

Bondo, it's not so much that people are using out of date or old husbandry. It's more that they never take the time to study the habitat and natural history of the animals they keep.

I just meant like how if something is directly in the sun the temp will be higher than ambient. Not that BPs are out in the sun just pointing out how the weather data can be skewed.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

This is being made waaay to complex than it really is.

Termite mounds vary between 84 and 90 degrees. The "design" of these has been relentlessly studied...especially in regards to how it regulates temperature...even when temps skyrocket or plummet outside of the structure. Studies on regius have shown that they seek burrows within this temperature range during the day....and no I'm not going to provide the study or a link to it. I think people would be better off if they took the time to study the aspect of the'r animal's natural history

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On that note, as someone who genuinely enjoys researching this sort of thing, I have another question! Most caresheets and keepers recommend a RH of 50-70%, but African termite mounds are regulated to maintain a much higher RH, between 80-100%. Termites can't survive long with anything less than this. So, as a new ball python keeper, I'm wondering if there's a reason for this disparity? Do most of you offer a humid hide at all times?

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Originally Posted by bondo

I still feel 80 ambient and a day/night cycle are not the healthiest way to keep balls. I however said they will do fine also. It has been proven they do fine both ways. I do not recommend new people keeping an ambient in the high 60s. However when I was running that cold I had balls on the cold side. The girls did great in those temps I had very few slugs. My new house is insulated very well and I don't get that cold anymore and my slug numbers went up. The snakes know what they need better then any of us.

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There are two windows in my reptile room, one facing south and one facing west. I keep the blinds slightly cracked and this gives the whole room rather soft lighting during the day. I provide this photoperiod as I feel it's healthier for animals to have a natural light cycle. They can then decide how to react - e.g., being more active for diurnals or retreating for nocturnals. I don't use central heating or air, just a couple window air conditioners on either side the house and a radiator heater in the reptile room for winter. During the winter I set my royal hot spots at 88-90 and the ambient in the room usually stays between 72-78(night-day). The ambient in the room for the rest of the year ranges from 77-84(night-day) and I turn off hot spots completely during the hottest months in summer. During these hot months animals don't get a typical range in their enclosures to thermoregulate but the room itself ranges from 77-84 during a 24 hour cycle and they seem to do fine.

That's how I keep my animals and while I don't produce a large number of regius eggs, without being home to see my records I'd guess around 50 in the last 5 years, every female who has ovulated has laid perfect clutches with 100% hatch rate. I'm thinking there's a wide range of parameters in which these animals will adjust and even thrive. So long as you're within these accepted(by the animal) parameters, keeping things more or less constant(daily, weekly, monthly, yearly) seems to be the main key to success. I'm not a betting man but if I were I'd wager your increase in slugs had more to do with the simple fact that there was a major change in husbandry. It's not really proof that the way you were keeping your animals previously was superior, only that your animals were adjusted to those settings and you threw their systems for a loop in the changing. Sometimes it can take years for them to readjust, sometimes they never do and you have nice pets for the duration of their lifespan(s).

Thank you to the folks who see my side. I could really care less if you keep your snake at 68 degrees. That's your business. Just do not tell me my snake is suffering because I keep an ambient temp of 82.. Which is normal in this hobby. And its only 92 where the heat tape is which is only under that specific hide. My snake spends 85% of his time there. The far side is 82 and he is rarely there. Am I going to make it cooler for him since he spends more time on the warm side? I would call that suffering to be honest because he is content as is. We ruled out he's probably not dehydrated since his eyes show no signs, just creases in the skin from being balled up for hours in a tight hide. Problem solved. I soaked him once because he had a tiny piece of eye cap stuck and out of all the snakes I had he seemed to "like?" the short soak and always takes big drinks and doesn't thrash about so I figured I would ask if anyone soaks their snakes or is it bad for them. I'm open to other methods of keeping ball pythons but do not tell me my snake is suffering because I do not do it your way which is not even the norm.

Oh and PS I'm not a "16 year old kid with my first ball python" , this is actually my first snake kept in a enclosure because I can no longer have a rack and the space for all the snakes I had over the last decade. I'm not a expert but I have SOME experience [emoji6] let's all get along now [emoji16]

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Originally Posted by bondo

So data should not be based on averages? what should it be based on? This is the average for Bangui.

Bangui, Central African Republic

The warm season lasts from January 23 to March 18 with an average daily high temperature above 93°F. The hottest day of the year is February 9, with an average high of 94°F and low of 69°F.

The cold season lasts from June 20 to August 27 with an average daily high temperature below 87°F. The coldest day of the year is January 3, with an average low of 65°F and high of 91°F.

The hottest day average low is 69 and the coldest is 65. That would put the average low for the entire year at 67. Yaoundé, Cameroon average low for the year is 68. The average low for the year in Khartoum, Sudan is 73.5. The average low for the entire year in Tambacounda, Senegal is 72.5. I know what you are going to say. Well those are the low averages you need to average them with the highs. That would be true if they only came out during dusk or dawn only. If they go out at night though the lows are what to look at. It gets in the 90s and 100s during the days in some of these places but they stay put under the ground in these temps for the most part.

I do understand humidity. Your argument though is based on how humidity works in general. We are talking about a tank. When the humidity in the air is less then what you are trying to maintain it isn't so cut and dry. How much water surface is in the tank? How much misting is going on? Is the top covered fully, partially, or nothing at all. You can't debate something without all the info.

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You are still talking about the average of the lowest temperatures an the highest temperatures. This is not realistic, only looking at the maximums. You are saying the extremes are what you should be looking at not the averages of the whole day. Lets look at this, for the warm season if we take the average of the daily maximum temperatures recorded, 94ºF and the average of the lowest temperatures recorded 69ºF 94+69=163 /2 = 81.5. This is not a true daily temp average but is likely close. Better than saying the average of the coldest temps recorded is correct.

Are you also suggesting a 91ºF ambient is acceptable as well?

You need to look at the daily temperature average not the average of the daily extremes.


Humidity is hardly cut and dried. You stated it is harder to keep humidity if the ambient are temp is higher. This is not correct it is easier, you need less RH because the saturation value is different. This does not ever change in a tank, house or outside. It is a law of physics. The cooler the enclosure the harder the humidity issues are.

If you did keep a royal at 64ºF you could never get enough humidity as 100%RH fully saturated air is less than the amount of water in the air that has demonstrated over and over to produce good sheds. 60%RH only works at one temperature 80ºF as the ambient changes so does the needed RH. The cooler it is the more you need the closer you get to 100% the harder it is to hold. Warmer air temps need lower % of the saturation point and it is easier to maintain.

Warmth evaporates more water. Cool temperatures evaporates less. Basic physics, you have suggested this is not true.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

You are still talking about the average of the lowest temperatures an the highest temperatures. This is not realistic, only looking at the maximums. You are saying the extremes are what you should be looking at not the averages of the whole day. Lets look at this, for the warm season if we take the average of the daily maximum temperatures recorded, 94ºF and the average of the lowest temperatures recorded 69ºF 94+69=163 /2 = 81.5. This is not a true daily temp average but is likely close. Better than saying the average of the coldest temps recorded is correct.

Are you also suggesting a 91ºF ambient is acceptable as well?

You need to look at the daily temperature average not the average of the daily extremes.


Humidity is hardly cut and dried. You stated it is harder to keep humidity if the ambient are temp is higher. This is not correct it is easier, you need less RH because the saturation value is different. This does not ever change in a tank, house or outside. It is a law of physics. The cooler the enclosure the harder the humidity issues are.

If you did keep a royal at 64ºF you could never get enough humidity as 100%RH fully saturated air is less than the amount of water in the air that has demonstrated over and over to produce good sheds. 60%RH only works at one temperature 80ºF as the ambient changes so does the needed RH. The cooler it is the more you need the closer you get to 100% the harder it is to hold. Warmer air temps need lower % of the saturation point and it is easier to maintain.

Warmth evaporates more water. Cool temperatures evaporates less. Basic physics, you have suggested this is not true.

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The explanations of calculating temperature averages are starting to give me nightmares about bell curves, standard deviations, and T-tests from my old stat. class! :omg:

I think there may be a miscommunication over the humidity argument, and you're arguing a similar point. It seems like some people are arguing physics (warm air evaporating water more quickly than cooler air) while OP is arguing that in glass tanks humidity is harder to maintain due to the lids, and higher temperatures allow the tank to dry out faster. So in glass tanks, lower heat = slower rate of tank drying out/slower rate of evaporation. It's not that warmer temps lower humidity, it's that they generate humidity too quickly to properly maintain it without constant misting.

So let's say there are two 10g tanks next to each other with screen lids. If the tanks had the same amount of damp substrate and type of heater (be it CHE, lamp, or RHP), but one was set to an ambient 72F and the other is set to an ambient 82F, which tank would have more consistent humidity within the desired parameters for BPs? Which tank would hold humidity longer? A tank too warm may have the right humidity level but it would evaporate completely within a day. A tank too cool would have damp substrate for a week but very little humidity in the air. What the optimal temperature range for the right humidity level for the longest period of time?

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

You are still talking about the average of the lowest temperatures an the highest temperatures. This is not realistic, only looking at the maximums. You are saying the extremes are what you should be looking at not the averages of the whole day. Lets look at this, for the warm season if we take the average of the daily maximum temperatures recorded, 94ºF and the average of the lowest temperatures recorded 69ºF 94+69=163 /2 = 81.5. This is not a true daily temp average but is likely close. Better than saying the average of the coldest temps recorded is correct.

Are you also suggesting a 91ºF ambient is acceptable as well?

You need to look at the daily temperature average not the average of the daily extremes.


Humidity is hardly cut and dried. You stated it is harder to keep humidity if the ambient are temp is higher. This is not correct it is easier, you need less RH because the saturation value is different. This does not ever change in a tank, house or outside. It is a law of physics. The cooler the enclosure the harder the humidity issues are.

If you did keep a royal at 64ºF you could never get enough humidity as 100%RH fully saturated air is less than the amount of water in the air that has demonstrated over and over to produce good sheds. 60%RH only works at one temperature 80ºF as the ambient changes so does the needed RH. The cooler it is the more you need the closer you get to 100% the harder it is to hold. Warmer air temps need lower % of the saturation point and it is easier to maintain.

Warmth evaporates more water. Cool temperatures evaporates less. Basic physics, you have suggested this is not true.

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I am using the average low temps. The reason being is because they are out during those periods. If they were out in the middle of the day I would use the average highs.

At no time did I say it is harder to keep humidity at higher temps. I am not going to go through all these pages to where it was said. If it came across that way I am sorry I did not mean for it to. What I said or was trying to say is the light would dry it out. Again you are using the basics on how humidity works in the atmosphere. We are talking about a tank that we do not have all the info on. Is it closed off? What is the amount of water surface? What is the humidity level outside the tank? If the humidity outside the tank is 30% and you have a small water surface with half the tank covered how high would you need to crank the heat to get the humidity to an acceptable level? If it was as easy as get your ambient to 80 in anyway possible then we wouldn't have threads where people are saying I can't keep humidity up and why is my snake dehydrated? At high 60s to low 70s ambient temp I have condensation in my tubs. There is no light on my tubs just heat tape set at 87 degrees.

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Originally Posted by Chkadii

The explanations of calculating temperature averages are starting to give me nightmares about bell curves, standard deviations, and T-tests from my old stat. class! :omg:

I think there may be a miscommunication over the humidity argument, and you're arguing a similar point. It seems like some people are arguing physics (warm air evaporating water more quickly than cooler air) while OP is arguing that in glass tanks humidity is harder to maintain due to the lids, and higher temperatures allow the tank to dry out faster. So in glass tanks, lower heat = slower rate of tank drying out/slower rate of evaporation. It's not that warmer temps lower humidity, it's that they generate humidity too quickly to properly maintain it without constant misting.

So let's say there are two 10g tanks next to each other with screen lids. If the tanks had the same amount of damp substrate and type of heater (be it CHE, lamp, or RHP), but one was set to an ambient 72F and the other is set to an ambient 82F, which tank would have more consistent humidity within the desired parameters for BPs? Which tank would hold humidity longer? A tank too warm may have the right humidity level but it would evaporate completely within a day. A tank too cool would have damp substrate for a week but very little humidity in the air. What the optimal temperature range for the right humidity level for the longest period of time?

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Thank you, you get what I am saying, at least pretty close anyway lol. Sorry about your nightmares but we haven't even talked dew points yet. LOL

Chkadii yes point in fact two identical tanks one with higher ambient air temps will be far easier to hold 15.5 gm/m2 absolute humidity.

At an ambient air temp of 72ºF you need to hold close to 80% RH to be equal humidity as 80ºF 60%. If the air is 84ºF you would only need close to 50% RH to be the same as 80ºF @ 60% RH. I agree that there are many factors but the amount you need is a huge part. (BTW the dew point for all three is the same 65ºF what I am pointing out is related directly to dew point. Many just calculate dew point combinations. basically I am simplifying it)

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Originally Posted by bondo

... Cooler temps makes it easier to keep humidity because the light doesn't need to be on drying the tank out. ...

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This is the statement I commented on, lights don't actually dry out tanks there is no magic 4th state of water and glass has a very low water absorption. lights change the air flow patterns but your statement is basically flawed.

I still see no correlation in using the lowest recorded temps and temperature recommendations. Especially in light of the status changing among biologists to reclassify Royals as crepuscular (yes there is still debate but it is starting). Averaging the coldest temps recorded each day is simply silly, it is likely only represents 20-50 hours of a month. Using an evening morning averages is likely to be closer, and discard the lowest and highest temperatures.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Chkadii yes point in fact two identical tanks one with higher ambient air temps will be far easier to hold 15.5 gm/m2 absolute humidity.

At an ambient air temp of 72ºF you need to hold close to 80% RH to be equal humidity as 80ºF 60%. If the air is 84ºF you would only need close to 50% RH to be the same as 80ºF @ 60% RH. I agree that there are many factors but the amount you need is a huge part. (BTW the dew point for all three is the same 65ºF what I am pointing out is related directly to dew point. Many just calculate dew point combinations. basically I am simplifying it)



This is the statement I commented on, lights don't actually dry out tanks there is no magic 4th state of water and glass has a very low water absorption. lights change the air flow patterns but your statement is basically flawed.

I still see no correlation in using the lowest recorded temps and temperature recommendations. Especially in light of the status changing among biologists to reclassify Royals as crepuscular (yes there is still debate but it is starting). Averaging the coldest temps recorded each day is simply silly, it is likely only represents 20-50 hours of a month. Using an evening morning averages is likely to be closer, and discard the lowest and highest temperatures.

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You really think I thought light itself has something to do with humidity? The heat generated is what I was talking about. Again the heat directed in a tank is a problem. You are making broad assumptions on the setup. You are assuming humidity levels that is unknown. I live in WI my humidity will be a lot different then someone who lives in Florida. Right now the outside humidity here is 22% outside and 64 degrees . In New York it is 60 and 38% humidity. In Minneapolis it is 69 and 19% humidity. Dallas it is 66 degrees and 73% humidity. Now with your reasoning if I live in any of these areas I can put a light in my tank to raise the temp to 80 and my humidity will be perfect. It doesn't work that way. However it will dry your tank out unless other things are addressed to make it work. Again we would need to enclose it and have the right amount of water surface to change the humidity. Raising the temp with a light isn't going to do it by itself.

How can you see no correlation with low temps? Ball pythons do not go out at night? How is it silly? You keep saying my thoughts and reasoning are flawed and silly yet you show no examples as to why. You just seem to read as deep as possible into my comments and say that is flawed. I never thought light had anything to do with humidity. Also you seem to think ball pythons do not go out at night. Again I said a long time ago the high and low temps averaged together makes sense IF they only go out in the morning or in the evening. If they go out at night then lows do need to be considered.

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Originally Posted by bondo

How can you see no correlation with low temps? Ball pythons do not go out at night? How is it silly? You keep saying my thoughts and reasoning are flawed and silly yet you show no examples as to why. You just seem to read as deep as possible into my comments and say that is flawed. I never thought light had anything to do with humidity. Also you seem to think ball pythons do not go out at night. Again I said a long time ago the high and low temps averaged together makes sense IF they only go out in the morning or in the evening. If they go out at night then lows do need to be considered.

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What I see as flawed is keeping a snake that lives in a warm climate at a temperature it is only exposed to for a few hours at night while hunting and most of the time it doesn't even drop down that low.. A ball python probably spends 75% of its time in a termite mound which is at a steady temperature since it probably still stays warm underground at night. I think an acceptable range for most novice keepers is a 78-83 ambient or cool side and a 87-91 hot spot. I don't see anything wrong I guess from what your doing since you have no problems but don't accuse folks of doing it all wrong if it is not done in your way.

You have put forward that people should not rely on old care sheets but yet you refuse new research? Is this not a contradiction? That is what crepuscular means evening and morning this is what researchers are currently debating. How crepuscular they actually are.

Even laying that aside, using the lowest recorded temps and averaging them together is hardly realistic. This represents only a fraction of the nightly temperatures. You are using the most extreme as an example. Look at the average temperature even an average nightly temperature might be reasonable. Using the lowest recorded temperatures averaged together is unreasonable.

In my city and the local observatory to me for yesterday recorded a low of 0.3ºC for all of 15 min then it went up to 3ºC. The past 7 days have a average low temperature of 1.7ºC and if I check the charts that represents all of 200min of 10080 min. You are saying that 200 min of the lowest of the low is reasonable representation of a whole week worth of temperatures? Look at real nightly averages not just the lowest recorded temp. You are using an extreme low as this is a real average it is not it is just the average of the lowest recorded temps over a whole season. Look at the average nightly temps for the same period that is more reasonable.


Humidity yes there are a lot of variables but a huge one is air temp the warmer the lower the RH can be. My comment is it is way easier to hold 60% at 80ºF (15.5gm/m3 absolute or dew point of 65ºF) than it is to hold 88% Rh at 68ºF (15.5 gm/m3 absolute with a dew point of 65ºF ) It is easier still to hold 54% RH at 83ºF (15.5gm/m3 and a dew point of 65ºF) you have claimed that lights (you used lights) make it harder to hold humidity, I maintain the closer you need to be to 100%RH the harder it becomes and the more issues you will have. At an ambient air temp of 64ºF you have a dew point below 65ºF so you cannot hold enough humidity.

The simple fact is the warmer the air temp is the lower the RH that is needed to target and the easier it all becomes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 8_Ball

What I see as flawed is keeping a snake that lives in a warm climate at a temperature it is only exposed to for a few hours at night while hunting and most of the time it doesn't even drop down that low.. A ball python probably spends 75% of its time in a termite mound which is at a steady temperature since it probably still stays warm underground at night. I think an acceptable range for most novice keepers is a 78-83 ambient or cool side and a 87-91 hot spot. I don't see anything wrong I guess from what your doing since you have no problems but don't accuse folks of doing it all wrong if it is not done in your way.

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Ughhhhhhh I accused no one of doing wrong. I said if it works for ya then cool. I am getting tired of repeating this. What you are not understanding is they still have a hot spot. They have their choice of hot and cold. Just like the wild one's have their choice to regulate themselves. As for it doesn't drop down that low I posted average lows not the lowest temps possible. I am not saying they are always in the temps but they are exposed to it at night. They know when they need to go back to the warmth to regulate themselves. People seem to think at a low ambient temp they will fall over dead. Yet in the wild they are exposed to it. They know how to regulate their temps they have been doing it for a long time. I will repeat one more time if you follow the care sheet your snake will do fine. As long as your heating method isn't drying the tank out. However you can run cooler temps though also. When somebody says I only have an ambient temp of 75 so I need a light to get it to 80 plus I cringe because you are now causing possible issues from a light that wasn't needed in the first place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

You have put forward that people should not rely on old care sheets but yet you refuse new research? Is this not a contradiction? That is what crepuscular means evening and morning this is what researchers are currently debating. How crepuscular they actually are.

Even laying that aside, using the lowest recorded temps and averaging them together is hardly realistic. This represents only a fraction of the nightly temperatures. You are using the most extreme as an example. Look at the average temperature even an average nightly temperature might be reasonable. Using the lowest recorded temperatures averaged together is unreasonable.

In my city and the local observatory to me for yesterday recorded a low of 0.3ºC for all of 15 min then it went up to 3ºC. The past 7 days have a average low temperature of 1.7ºC and if I check the charts that represents all of 200min of 10080 min. You are saying that 200 min of the lowest of the low is reasonable representation of a whole week worth of temperatures? Look at real nightly averages not just the lowest recorded temp. You are using an extreme low as this is a real average it is not it is just the average of the lowest recorded temps over a whole season. Look at the average nightly temps for the same period that is more reasonable.


Humidity yes there are a lot of variables but a huge one is air temp the warmer the lower the RH can be. My comment is it is way easier to hold 60% at 80ºF (15.5gm/m3 absolute or dew point of 65ºF) than it is to hold 88% Rh at 68ºF (15.5 gm/m3 absolute with a dew point of 65ºF ) It is easier still to hold 54% RH at 83ºF (15.5gm/m3 and a dew point of 65ºF) you have claimed that lights (you used lights) make it harder to hold humidity, I maintain the closer you need to be to 100%RH the harder it becomes and the more issues you will have. At an ambient air temp of 64ºF you have a dew point below 65ºF so you cannot hold enough humidity.

The simple fact is the warmer the air temp is the lower the RH that is needed to target and the easier it all becomes.

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When did I say I disagree with the new research? Those were AVERAGE lows not record lows. It shows the average on the hottest day of the year and the coldest day of the year. Yes I agree with how humidity works. I never questioned that. I question how it works in a glass tank though. There are too many variables to make a blanket statement that 80 degrees will give you the right humidity in a glass tank.

And round and round we go! Where it stops? Nobody knows!

It stopped becoming a usefull post.
Now its just a match to see who can make a bigger puddle.
Need to let it die.

How to make this post useful....

No idea.

A lot of time has been spent arguing back and forth. Bottom line....it's not uncommon for someone to get dog piled on when they bring up a husbandry practice that may seem out of the norm.

The problem lies in forum "dogma" - more specifically rules laid down that are thought to be absolute but are not.

Oftentimes care sheets and actual natural history only share a sliver of commonality. Woe be upon he/she who tries to expand that sliver...

When two methods are used to the same result how do you choose which is better? Egg production makes a poor deciding factor when your control and experimental groups are one in the same. You can raise some hatchlings up in rather dreadful conditions and they'll more or less be tuned in to their individual cycles. Once the females are mature and producing eggs if you then switch them to "perfect" conditions you will likely see a decrease in egg production and/or increase in slugs for at least a season or two while they get dialed in to their new settings. The ballpark is rather larger than most people think but as long as you're within it, constancy seems to be the key to success.