Husbandry vent

[hungba]

My snakes must not be ball pythons then because they breed just fine. Locks within the first night introduced. No slugs at all.

[kitedemon]

Claiming an average highs and lows is a poor measure of actual temperature. I would agree Royals can manage low 70s for a few days with not too many issues and as hot as 100ºF for short periods of time too. Look at the seasonal average temps not the average of the hottest and coolest days. Like you not understanding humidity this too demonstrates a poor understanding. Your arguments are sound but based upon the average of the very hottest and coolest temps of a given location.

It is like me saying the average temperature in Tampa florida for April is 63ºF. It is the average low not the average. they represent the average of the lowest recorded temps not the normal temps at all. The average normal temp is closer to 73ºF, 10 degrees different from the average of the lowest temps.

http://www.weather.com/weather/tenda...+USFL0481:1:US

[PitOnTheProwl]

I NEVER recommend what I do, reason being it would not be optimal for a new owner and would not help troubleshooting their issues.

This right here.
What works in my house might not work in yours.

You brought the dogs up so I spun it back to you. I DID answer the question of benefits it is their natural temps. All reptiles need a way to regulate their temps. With 80 ambient and 90+ hot they can only do so much. If you ever wanted to breed you would have a very tough time at those temps. The reason why is because those temps are hotter then they are use to. Otherwise they would breed ovulate and have very few slugs at those temps. However that doesn't happen at those temps because they are getting cooked.

YOU brought up the dogs. Wow. Ball pythons originate from Africa yet their natural temps don't matter. That makes sense.

On this note, I have one question: How many of you are keeping IMPORTED balls?

The burden we have taken to keep these animals is not a straight cookie cutting. However I would say 99.9% of these animals are captive bred and only use to the climate we provide for them. Humans and animals can and will adapt to their surroundings as long as they are reasonable.

Yes, they originated from Africa BUT the only natural temperature they know is 88.9 degrees while they were cooking in my incubator. LoL

[JLC]

...I said no one is willing to look at all the info and deviate from the care sheets. You are proving my point very well.....

... Like I said if they follow the care sheet they should have no issues for keeping their snake in good shape. ....

Here's the problem with this discussion. Your "vent" is an unwillingness of "everyone" to not deviate from care sheets. But at the same time, you defend care sheets by saying if folks follow them, they should be fine. So why the vent?

We're here to help beginners (primarily) learn how to care for their animals. It's hard enough getting folks in general to grasp the basics of animal husbandry. It would be impossible if we tried to explain every possible option available and customize our advice on each individual's ability (or lack of ability) to read their snakes and understand whether or not the animal is under duress or getting sick.

You get frustrated that "no one" is willing to deviate....but it's obvious from this discussion and the few who have participated, that LOTS of people are willing to deviate...once they get a solid understanding of their own animals and personal circumstances. We just don't recommend all these different methods and customizations for the very reason I just stated above.

Sure, in some threads, individuals may seem to get on a soapbox about following care sheet steps "or else"...but they may still be new themselves and not understand the flexibility of ball python husbandry, and/or they may understand that they are talking to someone who is completely new and should really be starting with the simplest and most risk-free methods for keeping them.

I DO think keeping ambients in the 60's is far too low. You go on and on about temperatures where they are from, but nowhere in all that data do I see them living 24/7, 365 days a year in temperatures that you describe as "proper." At best, maybe a few weeks out of the year...at the very most.

I don't keep tons of snakes myself, but I've had the privilege of visiting many of the largest breeders in our country. Not a single one of them keeps their ambient temperatures below 78 degrees, although some (but not all) give the snakes a cooling period for breeding purposes and drop the ambients down to around 73-74. Nothing extreme. Most of the time, the temperatures in those ball python rooms are around 80 degrees. These are people that have been keeping and breeding TENS OF THOUSANDS of snakes for DECADES. Never heard a single one of them suggest they should ever be kept at temps below 70.

[JLC]

I DO think keeping ambients in the 60's is far too low. You go on and on about temperatures where they are from, but nowhere in all that data do I see them living 24/7, 365 days a year in temperatures that you describe as "proper." At best, maybe a few weeks out of the year...at the very most.

Just want to say one more thing...

If your methods are working for you....then fine! I have no problem with folks doing their own thing, so long as their animals remain healthy and content to the best of our abilities. BUT...if you advocate YOUR methods that are so far out of the box, especially when talking to beginning keepers, you WILL get push back, for all the reasons I stated above...and those reasons have nothing to do with some mindless, dogmatic adherence to any specific care sheet, even the one I wrote for this site.

[jclaiborne]

Khartoum, Sudan

The warm season lasts from April 8 to July 2 with an average daily high temperature above 103°F. The hottest day of the year is May 29, with an average high of 107°F and low of 84°F.

The cold season lasts from December 14 to January 31 with an average daily high temperature below 89°F. The coldest day of the year is January 12, with an average low of 63°F and high of 85°F.

Yaoundé, Cameroon

The warm season lasts from January 23 to April 4 with an average daily high temperature above 85°F. The hottest day of the year is February 8, with an average high of 87°F and low of 69°F.

The cold season lasts from June 26 to August 31 with an average daily high temperature below 80°F. The coldest day of the year is January 2, with an average low of 67°F and high of 84°F.

Tambacounda, Senegal

The warm season lasts from March 11 to May 29 with an average daily high temperature above 102°F. The hottest day of the year is April 26, with an average high of 106°F and low of 80°F.

The cold season lasts from July 10 to September 25 with an average daily high temperature below 92°F. The coldest day of the year is January 10, with an average low of 65°F and high of 92°F.

Bangui, Central African Republic

The warm season lasts from January 23 to March 18 with an average daily high temperature above 93°F. The hottest day of the year is February 9, with an average high of 94°F and low of 69°F.

The cold season lasts from June 20 to August 27 with an average daily high temperature below 87°F. The coldest day of the year is January 3, with an average low of 65°F and high of 91°F.

I would like to add that if you move off the coast and go north in Ghana you will find lows close to most of these.

Quick question. You seem to be referencing their natural habitat quite a bit, while I don't own a BP I personally try to replicate the natural habitiat of the reptiles I keep, that being said what type of enclosure are all of your BP's in?

[bondo]

Here's the problem with this discussion. Your "vent" is an unwillingness of "everyone" to not deviate from care sheets. But at the same time, you defend care sheets by saying if folks follow them, they should be fine. So why the vent?

The vent is people saying you can't deviate from the care sheets. That is what I have been saying all along. I said keeping snakes like the care sheet says will be fine for your snake. However people need to know you can deviate from it. I am just tired of people saying an ambient of 75 will kill the snakes. I am tired of people saying you can't incubate at 85. I am tired of people saying you have to have a day/night cycle. It has been proven many many many times over that it is not detrimental to keep balls like this. Yet as you can see some are stuck on the care sheets and will not even consider anything else. I still feel 80 ambient and a day/night cycle are not the healthiest way to keep balls. I however said they will do fine also. It has been proven they do fine both ways. I do not recommend new people keeping an ambient in the high 60s. However when I was running that cold I had balls on the cold side. The girls did great in those temps I had very few slugs. My new house is insulated very well and I don't get that cold anymore and my slug numbers went up. The snakes know what they need better then any of us.

[PitOnTheProwl]

You can incubate cooler than 89, just takes longer to hatch.
You can also speed it up going warmer.
I use what works for me and many others.

[JLC]

I am just tired of people saying ...

Well, good luck getting anyone to say what you want how you want them to say it. I've been trying for over ten years and haven't made any progress. Thing is...as soon as you convince one person to be more flexible on an idea, someone else new joins up with the same old inflexibility...on ANY topic, not just BP husbandry.

You'll see whatever you choose to focus on. There are plenty of folks here who advocate for flexibility on husbandry methods, while at the same time, coaxing beginners with the simplest "tried-and-true" methods. But if you focus on the stuff that irritates you, then it will seem like that's all that anyone is doing.

Sometimes, it really, really feels to me like all anyone ever does here is complain about everyone else. Of course that isn't true...but if the center of your back itches and you can't reach it...all of a sudden, it's the only thing you can focus on, even though the rest of your body feels perfectly fine. There's always something going on that we don't like. We can choose to focus all our attention on it...or we can choose to focus on the positive side of things that is ALSO always there. And we can also choose to be a part of the solution to our irritants, or we can choose to complain about them and hope someone else figures out how to fix them.

[bondo]

Claiming an average highs and lows is a poor measure of actual temperature. I would agree Royals can manage low 70s for a few days with not too many issues and as hot as 100ºF for short periods of time too. Look at the seasonal average temps not the average of the hottest and coolest days. Like you not understanding humidity this too demonstrates a poor understanding. Your arguments are sound but based upon the average of the very hottest and coolest temps of a given location.

So data should not be based on averages? what should it be based on? This is the average for Bangui.

Bangui, Central African Republic

The warm season lasts from January 23 to March 18 with an average daily high temperature above 93°F. The hottest day of the year is February 9, with an average high of 94°F and low of 69°F.

The cold season lasts from June 20 to August 27 with an average daily high temperature below 87°F. The coldest day of the year is January 3, with an average low of 65°F and high of 91°F.

The hottest day average low is 69 and the coldest is 65. That would put the average low for the entire year at 67. Yaoundé, Cameroon average low for the year is 68. The average low for the year in Khartoum, Sudan is 73.5. The average low for the entire year in Tambacounda, Senegal is 72.5. I know what you are going to say. Well those are the low averages you need to average them with the highs. That would be true if they only came out during dusk or dawn only. If they go out at night though the lows are what to look at. It gets in the 90s and 100s during the days in some of these places but they stay put under the ground in these temps for the most part.

I do understand humidity. Your argument though is based on how humidity works in general. We are talking about a tank. When the humidity in the air is less then what you are trying to maintain it isn't so cut and dry. How much water surface is in the tank? How much misting is going on? Is the top covered fully, partially, or nothing at all. You can't debate something without all the info.