Not thrilled with LLL Reptile.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

(yes, you are placing blame) on Mike.

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...no blame was placed whatsoever...Mike was in the right to post his experience. Believe it or not, although I don't post on here 10+ x's a day, I actually know what I'm talking about some of the time. Mike only had to own his own words...when I took note of "something" that the snake may have had, he said I was mixing words....which I clearly was not. Let's put a brief summary on this...


"I bought a Fla king snake from LLL at a show. I had it for 10 days, it shed, it fed, and then it died. I contacted LLL, and they told me guarantees are only for 24 hours. Still, they offered me credit towards a future purchase(when all I wanted was a refund). Since I don't want another animal from LLL, and they won't refund me, I will not pursue this any further. I understand business is business."

^^That is an awesome summary, no blame on Mike whatsoever, and then we get to here...

"By the way, I think the snake died because it had a disease/infection, and I think there other animals may be infected, so I don't want another one from them, and now am worried about my collection, but I won't get a necropsy to see if it's anything potentially harmful"

Yeah, not so good there....and Kodie, you brought up the BOI before...if you think the last part of Mike's story would fly there you obviously aren't too familiar with it.

I like Mike, and I can understand how he's feeling, but potentially harmful speculation has no place here.

And ColeSlaw, I am aware that the likelihood of anything that may or may not be transmitting from a king snake to ball pythons is unlikely. But, unless it is discussed with LLL, and the animal Mike got from them was found to be ill with something that could not have possibly happened while in Mike's possession, how do you know there is no way they would assist with or cover the costs of a necropsy. Sounds like more nonsensical speculation if you ask me....

Well, without prior written agreement from LLL that they would reimburse for the cost of a necropsy I'd say it's a pretty safe bet being as they won't refund $50. This is not factoring in the very real possibility that there may not be any qualified vets in his area, that they may not be able to do much with so small a snake, and that Mike did state that he does not have the funds available upfront.

Also, their* and he never once said he thinks that THEIR other animals may have something, but if this one died suddenly it IS possible. Nor did he say he is currently worried about his collection. Why get snakes from someone with snakes of questionable health in your own experience? Not to mention the countless other BOI threads on snakes from LLL dying.

You are making this out to be something much more than it is.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

"By the way, I think the snake died because it had a disease/infection, and I think there other animals may be infected, so I don't want another one from them, and now am worried about my collection, but I won't get a necropsy to see if it's anything potentially harmful"

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I did not say any of that in my OP. After it seemed like LLL was placing the blame on me and you kept pursuing it, that's when I finally said that other stuff. I wasn't going to mention it tho bc I wasn't overly worried about trashing LLL bc it wasn't a major concern. And like I already said before, by me saying "well I really don't think it was my fault..." isn't that me passively aggressively saying that I think that it was something on their end? It's funny how no one else took what I said like you did......... But I guess that's why I'm nominating you for the award, not them!

Mods feel free to lock the thread. I promise I won't be making anymore anytime soon.

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It was George Bush's fault...

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

After it seemed like LLL was placing the blame on me and you kept pursuing it, that's when I finally said that other stuff.

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Defensive much Mike? So, you spew garbage speculation as a defense mechanism when you feel like you are getting blamed for something, when in fact, nobody is really blaming you? Real classy, that'll get you far...:gj:

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

It's funny how no one else took what I said like you did.........

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Actually, if you go not too far back, I think Skip concurred that nothing I was saying was unreasonable. Sorry I don't side with people based on massive post counts...

I'll post this and then I'm done trying to tell you what to do.

Mike, one of two things happened here. I'm discounting husbandry errors because king snakes are damn near bullet proof and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

1. The snake was born with a defect.
2. The snake had some sort of pathogen.

The problem with business models that solicit buying whole lots of animals from a wide audience is several fold. First and foremost when you add a snake from such a vendor to your collection, you have no idea how many snakes from different sources it has been exposed to. Secondly, you may not know who produced the animal. I could go on, but you get the point.

Now if the snake was born with a defect and coincidentally died just after you purchased it, then all a necropsy will do is give you piece of mind.

But if it didn't, well, then you got a whole new set of worries.

Regardless of what some people suppose, there are a whole host of ophidian diseases that can jump from colubrid to boa, from elapid to viper and so on and so on. OPMV, crypto, viral meningitis and yes, even IBD. IBD has been potentially indicated in snakes other than boids - it is not likely that this is the problem, but it is important to realize it is a possibility.

If your vet is charging you $450 for a necropsy, then I get why you are hesitant to do it for a $45 snake. But you are essentially doing it for every snake in your collection.

LLL Reptile has a history laid open on the BOI of selling sick and sometimes parasitized animals to people. In the end, LLL Reptile usually does the right thing, but only after things have been brought to the general public and the heat gets turned up a bit. Yes I understand that their TOS does not cover your time span and I understand that you cannot force them to allay all your fears and concerns.

But, you can make sure that other people understand exactly what happened here and can make better informed decisions next time.

Since you have a valid concern, and LLL SHOULD have a valid concern (since that animal was exposed to their animals) then they should be open to finding out what that little snake died from.

First things first: ask LLL for the history of they snake. Did they produce it in house? Did they buy it from someone else? If so, who and when. If not, ask for all of the husbandry records. If they refuse to provide this information, let the snake community know. I supply a complete history of a every animal I sell on an excel spreadsheet if asked.

If you still do not have a warm fuzzy, then it is not unreasonable for you to approach LLL about a necropsy. Again, if they refuse, post that here.

The idea is to make sure every one who does business with them understands that every time you add an animal you are putting your other animals at risk and any vendor who sells animals that they do not properly acclimate, or flip also puts your animals at risk.

It's no skin of my back if you don't get a necropsy, but you are no dummy and I know that you realize that this is about more than a relatively inexpensive animal. This is about a vendor who pretty much told you to shove off until you posted here and now wants to discuss the issue further. Realize that it is their bests interests to make you happy.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

...no blame was placed whatsoever...Mike was in the right to post his experience. Believe it or not, although I don't post on here 10+ x's a day, I actually know what I'm talking about some of the time. Mike only had to own his own words...when I took note of "something" that the snake may have had, he said I was mixing words....which I clearly was not. Let's put a brief summary on this...


"I bought a Fla king snake from LLL at a show. I had it for 10 days, it shed, it fed, and then it died. I contacted LLL, and they told me guarantees are only for 24 hours. Still, they offered me credit towards a future purchase(when all I wanted was a refund). Since I don't want another animal from LLL, and they won't refund me, I will not pursue this any further. I understand business is business."

^^That is an awesome summary, no blame on Mike whatsoever, and then we get to here...

"By the way, I think the snake died because it had a disease/infection, and I think there other animals may be infected, so I don't want another one from them, and now am worried about my collection, but I won't get a necropsy to see if it's anything potentially harmful"

Yeah, not so good there....and Kodie, you brought up the BOI before...if you think the last part of Mike's story would fly there you obviously aren't too familiar with it.

I like Mike, and I can understand how he's feeling, but potentially harmful speculation has no place here.

And ColeSlaw, I am aware that the likelihood of anything that may or may not be transmitting from a king snake to ball pythons is unlikely. But, unless it is discussed with LLL, and the animal Mike got from them was found to be ill with something that could not have possibly happened while in Mike's possession, how do you know there is no way they would assist with or cover the costs of a necropsy. Sounds like more nonsensical speculation if you ask me....

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I see a lot of letters strung together, but you have yet to say anything.

My last post was as neutral as it gets, except for the fact that you understand inferences in other people's post but not your own.

If it's not LLL (if they bred it) or the people they are flipping it from, then obviously you think Mike did something wrong.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Defensive much Mike? So, you spew garbage speculation as a defense mechanism when you feel like you are getting blamed for something, when in fact, nobody is really blaming you? Real classy, that'll get you far...:gj:



Actually, if you go not too far back, I think Skip concurred that nothing I was saying was unreasonable. Sorry I don't side with people based on massive post counts...

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I literally mentioned it as gently as I could after I was pushed to. I wouldn't even call it an accusation. All I said was "my PERSONAL OPINON is this and that's why I don't want another animal from them..." It's a hunch, a feeling, an intuition. That's all. Not an accusation. Like "hey I think this is a real possibility so that's why I don't want another animal from them" I have the personal opinion that I really think you're an idiot, but that doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, it's my OPINION. This thread got completely twisted because of you Rob.

That wasn't my point at all but I figured you'd take that stance. My point is you're the only one who feels I was accusing LLL of something.

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This is now two days from the fact. I'm fairly certain the body is already gone and/ or no longer a candidate for autopsy.

Time to cool this down a bit, things are getting a little heated and personal. Closing this thread temporarily.

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Okay, I've opened it up again, lets try to keep the discussion a little more civil.

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

This is now two days from the fact. I'm fairly certain the body is already gone and/ or no longer a candidate for autopsy.

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Which is mike's fault too, you know.

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Sorry for your experience Mike. I am not posting here to place blame on anyone in this thread- just how I would probably have dealt with the situation given my current collection.

I have also invested a great amount of money, and a lot of time in my collection. For this reason I would have spent whatever the cost on a necropsy to protect my entire collection having to assume the worst case scenario of an unexplained death of a snake in my collection. I have never had an animal die suddenly, or at all for that matter, so I cannot put myself in your shoes. $500 for a necropsy does seem expensive on the surface, but that figure is less than probably 75% of any one bp in my collection, so if I saved even one animal from a potentially deadly disease, that $500 would be money well spent.

I have vetted 2 bp's (both well established for months in my collection after QT).... one an adult 1.0 Clown at 1700g who got an infected scent gland while breeding. Cost me over $500 total in vet bills, traveling 70 miles each way twice to the vet and antibiotics- plus the time to treat him over 2 months with injections of Baytril and then Tazicef. The other was a 1.0 Pied at ~400g who either regurged, or deficated a rat pretty much undigested (it was too hard to tell). He was immediately placed back in QT!! That was a $250+ bill for an exam and fecal smears for parasites and Crypto. I did not figure the Pied had IBD as he did not exhibit any neurological symptoms associated with IBD. All fecal exams were fine and in the end I concluded his temps were a bit low to aid in good digestion, as checking his tub with my IR gun it was 2F lower than other tubs in the same rack?? Don't know why the temp was low in his tub when others in the same V18 rack were fine, but I moved him to one of the warmest slots in the rack after all tests were fine and he ate and pooped normally twice in QT.

Both animals were fine in the end, and my collection was not compromised at all.

I now have Dr. Bogan (a well known local herpetologist) from Gator Land here in FL on call to visit my facility for $150 plus mileage to check my entire collection if needed at any time. I have not had the need to call upon his services, but it is comforting to know he is available to do so. Any treatments would obviously add to the cost, but how can you beat a herpetologist checking your 70+ bp collection for a flat rate $150 plus mileage and a modest hourly rate??

I think your situation is unfortunate, but we all need to be prepared for the worst when something happens to an animal in our collection :gj:

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Sucks Mike...and Florida Kings are such awesome, hearty snakes. I really don't feel that a 90 degree hot spot is necessary for them, but not something that would kill them. Not sure if LLL breeds their Fla Kings, but they do buy and resell in high volume. That nature of business(I'm not saying it's bad business) lends itself to this kind of thing happening on occasion...which is why they have the standard pet shop 24 hour policy on reptiles. Disappointing to lose the snake so soon, but they did go above and beyond their own terms to offer you a discount on a future purchase. The business side of dealing with live animals is not always pretty or satisfying to all parties involved, but it is business. And the again, sometimes the animals do just die suddenly with no explanation.

Out of curiosity, what, if any resolution to your issue were you seeking?

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Standard pet shop 24 hour policy??? Idk about other pet shops, but MY pet store guarantees our snakes for 14 days. And i believe it is the same for Petco.

sent from my incubator

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

It's called "hedging bets".

You gotta try really hard to kill a king snake. I'm not buying that it was a husbandry error. This wasn't some newbie greenhorn that bought this animal.
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110% agree with Skip on this. Ive kept several species of kings over the years, and theyve got to be be some of the hardiest snakes out there.

sent from my incubator

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

Standard pet shop 24 hour policy??? Idk about other pet shops, but MY pet store guarantees our snakes for 14 days. And i believe it is the same for Petco.

sent from my incubator

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Many states have a pet lemon law requiring a 14 day health gaurantee. However, I could only find legislation specific to cats and dogs in CA (where LLL is), and not much on reptiles.

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Originally Posted by GeekAndDestroy

Many states have a pet lemon law requiring a 14 day health gaurantee. However, I could only find legislation specific to cats and dogs in CA (where LLL is), and not much on reptiles.

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Their policy is their policy.

What they fail to grasp is that there is a trail of these incidents happening with their animals. Is it every animal? No but it's enough that anyone researching them is going to have doubts.

Such is the life of a reptile vendor who buys clutches from other people and then flips them. There are inherent risks with this model of business.

Whatever. Almost 2000 people have read this thread. How many of those will be people who will remember this thread and stay away from LLL? They need to make this right. A touchy feely email that infers that Mike can't keep a pet rock alive isn't going to cut it.

I don't know of any flipper that is going to put much of a health guarantee on their animals.....

I am more than willing to pay more than average market for snakes from very few sources I trust.

I'm not risking my collection on animals from known flippers as QT is nearly impossible and the turnover can barely be tracked if a problem arose.

Buyer obviously beware.

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Originally Posted by Doggey75

I'm sorry to butt in but I've been reading and what is a flipper? Lol

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A flipper is someone who buys snakes from one party with the intention of reselling them. It's often used as a pejorative term.

Personally I find the current negative attitude towards 'flippers' to be puzzling. Every single pet store since the beginning of pet stores is a flipper. There isn't a pet store anywhere that I've ever heard of that breeds all of the animals that they sell. Petco is a flipper, Petsmart is a flipper, that Mom and Pop pet store down on the corner that has been in business for 50 years is a flipper.

I'd be willing to bet that most of the people that are currently in this hobby first became exposed to it because they saw a snake for sale in a pet store.

The REAL issue here is NOT whether or not LLLReptile is a flipper, they're a pet store, of course they are. The real question here is whether or not they have a pattern of reselling snakes that may be sick. And THAT is the issue that needs to be addressed. Pointing fingers at them and shouting 'FLIPPER' like it's some kind of swear word does nobody any good and just clouds the real issue. At least in my opinion.

I don't understand why this thread got so out of hand.

Mike's only intention was to give a review of his purchase and experience. He has already stated that he understands that he won't be getting a refund, which is the only compensation he will accept. Nor does he want a replacement from LLL. I personally think he should get a full refund, but since LLL won't refund him, what else is he suppose to do? I don't blame him for not wanting a replacement animal from their stock. I wouldn't want another animal from them based on that experience and the potential factor of that replacement is carrying the same "something" that could potentially leads to a similar fate of the original king.

If LLL will not refund, but only replace the animal. Then I suggest LLL to purchase Mike a replacement king of his choice and equal value from a seller of his choice.
While I understand why they do it, the 24hr policy is still ridiculous imo.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

A flipper is someone who buys snakes from one party with the intention of reselling them. It's often used as a pejorative term.

Personally I find the current negative attitude towards 'flippers' to be puzzling. Every single pet store since the beginning of pet stores is a flipper. There isn't a pet store anywhere that I've ever heard of that breeds all of the animals that they sell. Petco is a flipper, Petsmart is a flipper, that Mom and Pop pet store down on the corner that has been in business for 50 years is a flipper.

I'd be willing to bet that most of the people that are currently in this hobby first became exposed to it because they saw a snake for sale in a pet store.

The REAL issue here is NOT whether or not LLLReptile is a flipper, they're a pet store, of course they are. The real question here is whether or not they have a pattern of reselling snakes that may be sick. And THAT is the issue that needs to be addressed. Pointing fingers at them and shouting 'FLIPPER' like it's some kind of swear word does nobody any good and just clouds the real issue. At least in my opinion.

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When you are dealing with the volume of animals that LLL does, then buying whole clutches, not putting them through proper QT, mixing them in with the rest of the stock and then selling them is in essence creating a giant petri dish. That's why when you dig into them a bit you, find the trail of health issues.

Is flipper a bad word? If animals are being brought in, properly acclimated and put through a basic QT or preventative treatment regimen - then no, it's not.

If you however are buying a clutch of boas on Friday, advertising them on Fauna and Kingsnake on Monday. Not waiting to see if they feed, not waiting to keep them long enough to be able to accurately assess their health - then yes.

When you are advertising on Kingsnake and Fauna that you are buying whole clutches from anybody that will sell them to you low enough - then yes, you are a baaaaaaaaaaaaad flipper. When you are a retailer that has a series of trusted suppliers that sell you properly raised and acclimated animals - then you are not.

Case in point - a local reptile store where I live buys animals from myself, Robert Seib, Doug Price, Steve Angeli, etc. They do not put blanket adds out in reptile classifieds asking any schlub who has a clutch of snakes if they want to offload them. In my opinion, Mark, there's a BIG difference.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I don't understand why this thread got so out of hand.

Mike's only intention was to give a review of his purchase and experience. He has already stated that he understands that he won't be getting a refund, which is the only compensation he will accept. Nor does he want a replacement from LLL. I personally think he should get a full refund, but since LLL won't refund him, what else is he suppose to do? I don't blame him for not wanting a replacement animal from their stock. I wouldn't want another animal from them based on that experience and the potential factor of that replacement is carrying the same "something" that could potentially leads to a similar fate of the original king.

If LLL will not refund, but only replace the animal. Then I suggest LLL to purchase Mike a replacement king of his choice and equal value from a seller of his choice.
While I understand why they do it, the 24hr policy is still ridiculous imo.

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Read the thread carefully Nikki. It's pretty obvious what happened here.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Read the thread carefully Nikki. It's pretty obvious what happened here.

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If obvious, you mean a specific member blew it out of proportion I'd be inclined to agree.

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I read Mike's experience when he first posted, which I have heard and read similar stories. Got curious today when I saw it had many replies tho.

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Originally Posted by LLLReptile

I was made aware of this thread this morning, and as I know Mike is a regular poster who does know his stuff when it comes to ball pythons, I'd actually really like to talk to Mike himself more about his setup and see if we can figure out what happened. Being great at caring for ball pythons doesn't necessarily mean it's an easy transition over to kingsnakes, and sometimes being so well versed in a single species can inadvertently make it more difficult to try new ones.

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This irks me, so we are calling Mike's concern for his collection an accusation, but that quote is not? Also, the attempt to bring the issue into private, when it already was previously....

Sorry Mike, your intentions were clear and you didn't need that experience or the experience in this thread. Good luck sir.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Read the thread carefully Nikki. It's pretty obvious what happened here.

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I know what happened. I thought both parties' intentions and decisions were clear. I suppose I should have worded it, "I don't understand why this thread needed to get so out of hand."
Because it really didn't. Just nit picking at Mike's specific use of words were misinterpreted, in my opinion. And it was just unnecessary....

It got out of hand because people lip off on forums in a manner they wouldn't in person. Cue some tough guy bragging about how tough he'd be to my face right.....about.....now....

Yawn.

You and I are right in the thick if things advising people to get necropsies in situations like this. Rob's advice was valid and he has every right to argue why. Mike has every right to explain why he declined.

Now if the discussion had stayed between those two and those two had worked it out, I guarantee this thread would not have been locked.

Like it or not, when you start a thread, you don't own it and you can't dictate where it goes. An unexplained death carries a high risk for any collection. As a community we push people to get necropsies done as well as recommending people take their animals to qualified vets when their animals get sick. There are some on this community who also harshly judge those who can't afford the care....and then get thanks and approval from a lot of members for doing it.

So is the inference here is that people are butt hurt because Rob pushed Mike on the necropsy thing? Well, whatever. In the meantime LLL sold your friend a sick snake. Direct the angst towards them, not the guy who is strongly advocating an excellent course of action.