Possible super pinstripes

ok... so i havent read the last 4 pages so forgive me for dup data.. but here goes my 2 cents. traits are either dominat co-dom or recessive to what we consider the 'norm' so what does that mean...

recessive traits are just that. In het form they are not seen at all. you wouldnt know its there. Like if i carried a trait for blonde. I could have a blonde child but by looking at me, there is zero indication of it.

co-dom is something that in het form will be visual to a degree along with what we consider 'normal' pattern. because to form any trait it takes 2 parts on a chromosome 1 from each parent.so in this example pastel can be seen in conjunction with normal traits. when 2 pastel parts are on the same chromosome then you get the homozygous of the trait. such as super pastel.

now with dominant traits it will completely over ride and look 100% the same whether het or homozygous. because it dominants the normal gene completely. think of brown eyes on a person. there is no super form of it that is visual,but if it is in het or homo on the child it is a visual 'morph'

now here is the fun...

traits are dom, co-dom, recesive to one another. example spider and pin are co-doms to one another. and pretty much all of the co-dom traits are as well. now the question comes well what about pastel and pin? or one of the combos just like that... well the part of pin that is the dom to norm is not always changed. only morphs that also change the pattern change what the pin looks like. pin is about as basic of a gene as there is. mojave lesser enchi desert, etc change both pattern and colors. and that gene, the tiny little piece of data that it is carries so much info it does easily carry data for both pattern and color in a single half of a chromosome.

hope that helps.

i think even Brian over at BHB would say that the pinstripe is a dominant gene there is no super pin? This morph has been around a long time and there has never been a super.....if anyone would know it would be Brian at bhb reptiles...

super is just a simple way to say homozgous form of a gene where it is a visual change.

so again pastel het is just pastel, a super pastel is a homozgous pastel. it is visually different. pin doesnt change so there is no super form even though you could have a homozygous of pin. or at least in theory. and from my understanding it was proven by bhb.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

right here http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...s-Spider-Morph the thread where you had most of this information presented to you.

trying to prove out a homozygous pin and failing would be your evidence, which I dont see. lack of evidence is not evidence, especially when there is no evidence of even trying.

So with nothing left, you insult me. I love the internet :D

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vin russo already stated his congo female only produces congos, so yes this is correct.

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LOL, so you repeated the same thing I was saying and then presented me with information that I already know and then claim that your answering questions for me, hows that work?:rolleyes:WOW! Also it appears that you are going against your own current arguement in that thread. All over the place again. Do you believe everything people post and what you read on the net?

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

All I can say really is wow. Evidence pointing in two different directions now, always interesting. thanks for the link.

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I've explain bhb 1-023i492309854i times now, so I dont know what the problem is. you want a picture? https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...A-nd0QG-voCoAg looks something like that. if you cant trust the guy giving the information, thats your choice. it was proven though, you just don't believe it.
talk to vin russo about his import congo, I would give you the link to the story, but he revamped his website. but you probably wouldn't believe him either.
and unless the current model of genetics needs rewritting, the fact that a platty x platty produced a het daddy looking animal is proof.

if a homo form is lethal, its not dominant, end of story. Spiders are dominant because theres no proven homozygous, or what i would call unproven dominant. if the homozygous spider is lethal, it will no longer be called dominant.

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This link is what you consider and take as evidence, LOL. Now I seriously question everything you say. Sounds to me like you cherry pick the things you want to be true and disregard everything else to the contrary of what you want to believe. Very scientific of you.

Allele
Heterozygous
Homozygous
Zygote
Heterozygote
Homozygote
Dominant
Recessive
Incomplete Dominant
Co-dominant
Phenotype
Genotype

Do yourself a favor, use them (correctly!). Ignore words like "super", except for branding and marketing purposes.
You can also ignore the word "gene", no one here ever uses it correctly.
Luckily, talk about chromosomes can be ignored as well except when we are discussing parthenogenesis, because snake sex chromosomes work differently than what you know about humans. At least that is one less thing I consider "need to know" for anyone breeding for specific traits in animals.

K-12 should be the very MINIMUM of the formal education you received, assuming you are not a minor, and I fully expect you to be able to handle the one chapter out of a subject typically taught to fourteen-year-olds that is relevant to your hobby.

If you're feeling like you don't have a firm grasp of the above, please DON'T hesitate to ask! No one laughs at the person trying to learn, heck nothing makes me happier. A GREAT starting point is wikipedia. Spending 10 minutes a day reading and clicking links, starting at the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_genetics is a great way to get more out of a hobby that involves (and tends to revolve around) genetic inheritance!
[/rant]
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As for the possibility of homozygote pinstripes: Cool! Good luck proving them out.

I keep an open mind about just how well defined these traits are. Sometimes there are pretty subtle changes in the phenotypes when certain alleles are present. It's well known that piebald heterozygotes have markers that are sometimes distinguishable visually from "normals", and piebald hets can be pretty wonky when combined with other common traits. That's enough to make the piebald trait not fit our concrete definition of "recessive", but then again the ability to pick out normals from hets isn't something that can be done with 100% accuracy.

It very well may be possible that homozygote pinstripes exhibit certain differences from heterozygotes that just aren't easy to spot. Heck it may be even more subtle than that, and homozygote pinstripes may just have a higher TENDENCY towards a particular pattern. I'll support any efforts to further our knowledge of how we can manipulate the pattern and coloration of these fun animal. I especially support efforts that have been given up by seemingly everyone else. Projects that are determined to be likely less profitable are often ignored.

Good luck. I'd like to see what happens when we have baby-to-adult pictures of a dozen or two "likely proven" homozygote pinstripes.

It's all about data, data, data... gotta get enough of it to perform ANY kind of analysis. Science is all about repeatable results!

Ok... First off wow guys, I come home from work to two full pages of comments. After extensive reading I would just like to say this:

This post was never intended to start an argument on genetics. I was simply trying to share Tom and I's happiness about a project he was working on. I posted the picture of the pin, not stating it was a super pin, simply saying I thought it was an awesome looking pinstripe.

I get that people are 50/50 on the possibility of a "super pin" but I believe it is possible. After reading the comments or "argument" It has only strengthened my desire to continue this project. We ended up with 1.1 Pinstripes from a Pinstripe X Pinstripe pairing. It should be fairly easy and quick to try and prove out the male. At least quicker than the female. I will be sure to post ALL updates on this venture.

If it proves out to be a dud then guess what? No ones time was wasted but ours. If it proves to be a "super pin" then a slap in the face of all you non-believers and we will officially re define the Pinstripe.

So who cares about arguing about everything, All I was trying to do was share some happiness in the breeding projects at hand. Get back to basics people. You may think its a waste of time because we could be producing 4 gene animals in the time it takes to test the pins. Isnt the biggest part of breeding snakes the LOVE and not making money? Ive accepted the fact that I will probably never produce a snake that hasnt already been produced.

Why not focus on something that is a passion rather than trying to be the best or newest or most expensive.

I will keep everyone updated.

I just wanted to add to mainbutter's informative post.

People seem to be getting confused about what a dominant actually is.

The morphs that have "super" forms should actually be called incomplete dominants (it takes two copies of the same gene to show the true dominant form). An example would be the pastel gene. Two copies of the pastel gene makes a super pastel.

The morphs that are dominant but have no "super" form are just dominants. If one copy of the gene can express that morph, then it is dominant. An example would be the spider gene. One copy of the spider gene makes a spider, and two copies of the spider gene also make a spider. There is no super form.

If a spider or pin with two copies of the spider/pin gene does not show a super form, it is still a dominant. It's just not an incomplete dominant (aka co-dominant). If a spider x spider pairing is lethal, it is still a dominant gene because it only takes one copy of the spider gene to make a spider.

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Originally Posted by Domepiece

LOL, so you repeated the same thing I was saying and then presented me with information that I already know and then claim that your answering questions for me, hows that work?:rolleyes:WOW! Also it appears that you are going against your own current arguement in that thread. All over the place again. Do you believe everything people post and what you read on the net?

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This link is what you consider and take as evidence, LOL. Now I seriously question everything you say. Sounds to me like you cherry pick the things you want to be true and disregard everything else to the contrary of what you want to believe. Very scientific of you.

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your asking questions that were already answered for you previously, simple as that. I dont see where I go against my own argument because I don't, besides randy showing me the link to RDR site, despite my conversation with ralph, that I posted. Great example of getting new information. I dont believe everything, but I do use common sense, I also do this crazy thing and actually talk to people, instead of just demanding they post something on the internet or it's not true.

are you seriously having trouble following along? Did I say it was evidence? No sir, I did not.

You claim i am cherry picking? I have talked to two breeders about their homo doms and ralph I didn't even have to to draw a conclusion if A=B and B=C then I guess A=C, hard concept for some apparently? how is that cherry picking? I am disregarding everything else? What is "everything else?" So far all I have seen is your non-acceptance and nothing else. what evidence of anything against my argument do you have? I have asked this a few times now, yet refuse to answer or don't have an answer. Keep sticking to your accusations and insults.

And rat, sorry to bug up your thread, i think it's great what your doing. I just can't stand all these "internet truths"

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

And rat, sorry to bug up your thread, i think it's great what your doing.

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Me too. Any amount of Pins is never a bad thing!!

Where would we be without Spiders and Pins?

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Originally Posted by Rat160

Ok... First off wow guys, I come home from work to two full pages of comments. After extensive reading I would just like to say this:

This post was never intended to start an argument on genetics. I was simply trying to share Tom and I's happiness about a project he was working on. I posted the picture of the pin, not stating it was a super pin, simply saying I thought it was an awesome looking pinstripe.

I get that people are 50/50 on the possibility of a "super pin" but I believe it is possible. After reading the comments or "argument" It has only strengthened my desire to continue this project. We ended up with 1.1 Pinstripes from a Pinstripe X Pinstripe pairing. It should be fairly easy and quick to try and prove out the male. At least quicker than the female. I will be sure to post ALL updates on this venture.

If it proves out to be a dud then guess what? No ones time was wasted but ours. If it proves to be a "super pin" then a slap in the face of all you non-believers and we will officially re define the Pinstripe.

So who cares about arguing about everything, All I was trying to do was share some happiness in the breeding projects at hand. Get back to basics people. You may think its a waste of time because we could be producing 4 gene animals in the time it takes to test the pins. Isnt the biggest part of breeding snakes the LOVE and not making money? Ive accepted the fact that I will probably never produce a snake that hasnt already been produced.

Why not focus on something that is a passion rather than trying to be the best or newest or most expensive.

I will keep everyone updated.

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thank you sir hopefully that brought some peoples heads out of the clouds i wish you luck and have fun

good luck and i really hope you prove it out. I think super pins are possible. just people overlook it because they look like normal pins but as we all know, ball pythons have some crazy genetics!:taz:

I know that you knew before posting this that it would be debated, so why act shocked?

Good luck as I keep saying, it's your animals and your time, nobody else's.
Nobody is saying don't do it, git er dun and document everything especially with photo's.
Because we all know the old saying... "pics or it didn't happen" :D

Good luck with your project. Many people have bred and still do breed Pin X Pin. Same as Spider.

Here is our perfect striped female Pin. Not one break.
http://www.tessadasexotics.com/modul...3_100_4619.jpg