The Official Birth Defect Documentary *Graphic picture warning*

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Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

OMG. This is enough of a reason for me to never buy from www.strictlyballs.ca ever. disgusting. :no:

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Ricky, that is not his web site. He's .ca in Ontario, Canada. The .com you linked to is in Iowa, USA. Different person and business.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Ricky, that is not his web site. He's .ca in Ontario, Canada. The .com you linked to is in Iowa, USA. Different person and business.

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asked a mod to fix it. ty.

Still can't believe it. Who freezes live animals?!?! :angered:

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Originally Posted by sharkrocket

I would like to hear more about super black pastels from other breeders. We are planning to go for super black pastels in a year or two, and we have our hearts set on an all black snake. I hope to hear about deformities relating to them from others. I am really sorry to hear about your experience TJ, but hopefully it can help others.

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I will be the first to say that since my post, I have seen plenty of healthy, perfect looking super cinnamons and cinnamon x black pastels. Mark Mandic was one the breeders who showed me more than a handful of his own hatchlings and he has not (to my knowledge) produced any misshapen or deformed ones. Although I did not see any issues with temp during incubation, I can not say with certainty that there wasn't a day while I was away from my home that the incubator crept up past 90.F although it is unlikely. I would have to assume something went wrong during incubation. I may attempt another Cinny combo x Cinny female in the future and heavily document the incubation process while keeping temps at 88.F instead of the 89.F to 90.F that is typical of most breeders. That should give me a final answer.

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Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

Still can't believe it. Who freezes live animals?!?! :angered:

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I agree.
But unfortunately, a lot of people still euthanize reptiles via Freezer. Its an old school method that has been an accepted practice for generations.

Its only through more recent studies and education that people have learned that it is inhumane, slow, and painful. And sadly a lot of keepers are still ignorant of that.


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Agreed it had •ONLY• been what since the mid 80s that that has been known to be a very poor option. 30 years, perhaps it is time to update your Vic20 too...


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Originally Posted by satomi325

We all know that birth defects and other issues will be present when producing any kind of animal in large numbers. This is not a thread asking which defect is associated with what morph.
I wanted to start a thread to document the numbers associated with birth defects.

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Please post the following when reporting a defect:
1) Morph - Unknown
2) The defect - 1 w/deformed eyes, 1 died in egg
3) Possible reasoning for the defect - Possible incubation temp issue
4) The parental pairing - Spider Dam x Enchi Sire
5) Total number of clutches and/or hatchlings you have produced - Produced one or two clutches a year since '08 w/no previous deformed babies.
6) Photos - See below
7) Any other information that you wish to include. (Maybe post how many defective hatchlings you have produced to date) - 7 eggs total were laid which resulted in 1 normal, 3 Enchi's, a Stingerbee and the deformed babies. The orange baby hatched out alive but only lived for about 3 days. All other babies were perfectly normal. It was the first clutch for the Enchi Sire and, I believe, 2nd clutch for the Spider Dam.

This is taken from my original post on 7/17/12 when they hatched...

"I think what may have affected these two guys was a temp problem that happened a few weeks prior to their pipping date. We had a bad storm move through several weeks ago (anyone on the East Coast knows the storm I'm referring to) and we lost power for about 20 hours. I thought I had maintained a fairly consistent temp, but apparently not. Once the temp in the incubator started dropping, I began trying to use some heat packs to bring it back up and maintain a reasonably constant temp. I thought I did fairly well, but I guess not. I'm thinking my Accurites weren't a big help as they both vary about 5 degrees. I usually rely on my Herpstat for the most accurate reading, but without power I had to rely on the Accurites.

I'm hoping these last two pull through. The orange guy/girl left a pretty sizable yolk sack behind so it may be touch and go until first feeding. The other still shows no signs of coming out. I guess at this point all I can do is wait. Also hoping my other clutch hasn't been affected. They are about two weeks away from hatch date and all eggs look great. Still big and plump but starting to dimple a tiny bit. Fingers crossed for them!"

Second clutch I mentioned above hatched w/no problems. Same Enchi Sire also.

This guy only lasted 3 days...

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...s/IMG_4869.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...s/IMG_4878.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...s/IMG_4613.jpg

Still in the egg...

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...s/IMG_4612.jpg


This is the other baby that died in the egg...

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...s/IMG_4795.jpg

I just had my first experience with a deformity. Pairing was fire to pinstripe. 8 eggs. Clutch was incubated at 89 degrees and began to pip on day 55, 7 had fully hatched by the 3rd day and one egg was unpipped. I slit it a bit and the baby inside looked... odd. I gave it one more day and them opened it more, it was weirdly fused. I was prepared to euthanize by destroying the brain matter but when I actually removed it I found it had died in the egg. Here are the pics,

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-q...27s+Clutch+-+3
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-N...27s+Clutch+-+8
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-g...7s+Clutch+-+11
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-I...7s+Clutch+-+13
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1...7s+Clutch+-+15
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-K...7s+Clutch+-+16
It's spine was very kinked, it went in a zigzag like pattern.

All the rest of the clutch seem perfectly healthy.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-c...o/IMG_2052.JPG
I did not have any temperature spikes or drops so far as I'm aware. The clutch that hatched before this one was fine and I'll watch the clutch due to hatch later this month.

Edit: the dam was a breeding loan from a friend so I'm not sure I'll be breeding her again. This was her first clutch. Sire has fathered many clutches, this is my second clutch ever so far and he sired both.

Are these caused by environmental factors, or are they from poor genetics?? (or both??)

I know most "birth defects" (usually just runty size) in my mice are caused by genetic factors, and only a handful from poor diet/maternal neglect; I would imagine it is different in herps??

I believe both, it can be one or the other or both at once.

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Ignore me just subbing this thread so I don't lose it.

Who freezes defective, deformed babies? Most people. All of the big breeders I'm friends with and most mid-range breeders as well.
I'm kind of a hands-off breeder when it comes to the more delicate issues involving ball pythons (namely death) as I am quite hands on with palpating females, aspirating eggs that are bound, etc. but for some reason, crushing the skull of a living creature is just something I can't get the courage to do.
Ricky, you are more than entitled to your opinion, but having only been in the hobby for a few short years, you really haven't experienced most issues that arise from having produced a number of babies and having to deal with their issues.
I also find it quite disheartening that I am directed to this thread to find you bad-mouthing me about my practices.
It seems we were the best of friends last fall when you were calling me asking for advice for the (presumably bacterial) respiratory infections that were running through your collection and now you talk poop about me? Oh well.
I glad to hear that you stocked up on a dozen bottles of F10; I've read that it is great for eliminating the symptoms of non-bacterial respiratory infections.
I hope you've finally got that under control without too many losses.
Take care.

My kink/deformity experiences...

Morph: 50% Possible Het. Pied Male
Defect: Kink in neck
Possible Reason for Defect: Unknown, however the rest of the clutch died during incubation at random. (5 fertile eggs total in clutch)
Parental Pairing: 100% Het. Pied Male X Normal Female
Total # of Clutches Produced: First Clutch (I have produced 8 clutches total as of this 2013 season including this one)

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...ke/mine004.jpg

Additional Info: This was a 2009 clutch. All fertile eggs, except one, died during incubation. Because of the kink in the hatchling's neck, he could not eat and passed away 3 months later. I have pictures of the deceased babies as well. The kink does not look severe, however it was impossible for him to swallow food.
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Morph: 50% Possible Het. Pied (unknown gender)
Defect: Kinking
Possible Reason for Defect: Unknown. Incubation was perfect, however, this offspring shares a father with the above hatchling. We think there may have been a genetic issue. The father passed away of unknown causes in 2012.
Parental Pairing: 100% Het. Pied Male X Normal Female
Total # of Clutches Produced: Sixth Clutch (I have produced 8 clutches total as of this 2013 season including this one)

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...e/Picture1.gif

Additional Info: This was a 2012 clutch. The other two hatchlings from this clutch survived. One had a slight kink in her tail but she eats and defecates normally. The other sibling was completely healthy with no kinks.
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Morph: Pinstripe
Defect: Severe Kinking, Fused bodies
Possible Reason for Defect: Dehydration of eggs part way through incubation. I don't recall how far along they were.
Parental Pairing: Dinker Male X Pinstripe Female
Total # of Clutches Produced: Seventh Clutch (I have produced 8 clutches total as of this 2013 season including this one)

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...psf09f9a9e.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...psebedd986.jpg

Additional Info: This is a 2013 Clutch. Five eggs total with 4 pinstripes and 1 normal. Still waiting on the normal to hatch, but so far it appears healthy. All pinstripes have passed away prior to hatching. The pinstripe mother has produced healthy offspring in the past. This was the father's first clutch.
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Morph: Spider
Defect: Swollen Head, Passed away during incubation
Possible Reason for Defect: Unknown. Its siblings incubated full term and I am awaiting their hatching.
Parental Pairing: Spider Male X Normal Female
Total # of Clutches Produced: 8th Clutch (I have produced 8 clutches total as of this 2013 season including this one)

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...ps64773851.jpg

Additional Info: This is a 2013 Clutch. So far the siblings seem healthy. Still waiting for 3 normals from this clutch to hatch. One spider male hatched and appears healthy.

Are deformities like this more common with certain morphs??

My snake that I hope to breed one day is a Het For Carmel...is there a high percentage of this kind if stuff happening to the babies??

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

Are deformities like this more common with certain morphs??

My snake that I hope to breed one day is a Het For Carmel...is there a high percentage of this kind if stuff happening to the babies??

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There are certain morphs that are prone to deformities. Caramels, if I remember correctly are likely to get kinks.

This thread is a huge help! I have a het genetic stripe spider who I eventually plan on breeding. This really gives me insight on potential problems and complications. And also on choosing his mate. I would hate to have a bad clutch because of a lethal combination.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/11/qy2ehu3e.jpg
This is a caramel girl that was given to me as a hatchling. She has never had issues of any kind. She eats ,poops and sheds with no problems and is the only bp I've ever had that that hasn't missed a meal. I would never even think of breeding her cause her kinks but she is an awesome pet. Not sure how other people feel about it but I couldn't let her be frozen.

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Originally Posted by vankmen.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/11/qy2ehu3e.jpg
This is a caramel girl that was given to me as a hatchling. She has never had issues of any kind. She eats ,poops and sheds with no problems and is the only bp I've ever had that that hasn't missed a meal. I would never even think of breeding her cause her kinks but she is an awesome pet. Not sure how other people feel about it but I couldn't let her be frozen.

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I feel the same way. I could never put any animal in a freezer to die. It makes me so sad to even think about it. I'm glad your beautiful girl wasn't frozen.


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Aww. What a beautiful girl. <3 If she's doing that well, there would be no reason to put her down.

Morph: Double het VPI snow

Deformity: Badly kinked neck, slightly underformed lower jaw.

What happened: The air conditioning failed while we were out of town at a wedding, the house got up to 100F for a couple days.

Pairing: VPI axanthic het albino (dame) to albino poss het VPI axanthic (sire).

Total number of clutches and/or hatchlings you have produced: 9 clutches to date, ~40 live hatchlings total. This was a bad year with the air conditioning failure, I lost 4 eggs from 4 clutches. Last year I only lost 1 egg from 4 clutches.

Photos: Here's a video of the kinked male trying to move around. That's his mean sister guarding him. (She totally bit me in between the clips, too.)

https://vimeo.com/76673425

His lower jaw might also be slightly under-formed. It's hard to see in the photo, but his upper teeth sort of stick out on one side.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-n...kinked_jaw.JPG

Other comments: This was one of two clutches laid during the air conditioning outage. The black pastel clutch made it through relatively unscatched (one egg died, the rest of the babies hatched healthy and very fat). But the VPI snow clutch was a disaster. Two of the VPI snow eggs developed mold and eventually died a week before hatching. Both contained extremely kinked hatchlings, one of which was the only albino in the clutch. The other two eggs survived. Those contained a male and female hets. The female is apparently healthy (if super bitey). The male is much less bitey, but he has a terrible neck kink and slightly deformed jaw. He has difficulty moving from point A to point B, and I've been advised to euthanize him. I'm holding out to see if he's able to eat or not.

Wow. Poor little guy.:( He and the sister are very attractive looking snakes. It hurt my neck watching him try to right himself into that first upright position.
Judging by the angle and position of his kink, I'm not sure how he can pass food. It would have to be undersized feeders in my opinion.

Good luck with him. Some snakes surprise us sometimes.

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Yeah, it's not the worst kink, but it's in a terrible place. If it were lower down, I think he'd have no problem? As it is, he needs help getting his sheds started, and I had to switch to a shallower water bowl because he got stuck in his while trying to take a drink. I don't think he'd make it in the wild. I'm not even sure he would have successfully pipped if I hadn't cut his egg the day before.

My current plan is to assist feed f/t pinkies. I'm still worried he'll choke or even snap his neck when he tries to swallow. And he has a hard time with striking--he's not as amped up as his sister, but he has tried to chomp me a couple times. But he doesn't have any AIM, you know? He can't strike forward, just like he can't slither nose-forward. So he just sort of snaps his jaws in random directions and never connects. I might have to assist feed him every time.

My first clutch ever, the first egg to hatch produced a little male pinstripe with a caved in stomach. He died within an hour of hatching out of the egg. I was heartbroken. His siblings all hatched out just fine though.

In my opinion if you find this post useful, participe, if you dont find it useful avoid it.

I had one case of kinked hatchlings.
A pastel male. Dad produced before a lot of babies, it was moms first clutch. The egg look odd from the beggining, was never plump.
There was a problem with the light, it was out for 24hs, and they were at 25C for that period, i dont think it was the problem. There were three clutches in the incubator, one on day 50, no issues, this one was about day 30, with this pastel, and another one that is about to hatch anytime....we will see with that one....

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/14/qyga9ara.jpg

Some scales are fused but is not bad....

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This egg died around 45 days.
Kinked baby with a portion of fused scales. :(
Pastel x spinnerblast pairing
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/22/sade9uny.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/22/6esamuna.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/22/ugu9ydaq.jpg

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I see alot of pastels in here as a new breeder with the notes ive been gathering i see Champagnes, Spiders and now pastels. Other then incubatio nand humidity malfunctions would sound or vibrations have any effect on deffects like if some1 lived in a trailor, not me tho im a basement breeder

This egg died on day 58. My female spotnose had a parthenogenisis clutch, and this baby seemed to be relatively healthy except for the face and tail.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...f0ca341f3e.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...597f986a2d.jpg

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Sorry to necro this thread, but as long as people breed snakes I think it will continue to be relevant. I also want to share my story just to get it off my mind. This was my first clutch of BP eggs and I had a thermostat malfunction about a week after they were laid. Two eggs went bad the following week. The rest went full term, but this one never hatched and died in egg. This is what it looked like after I took it out:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/33e52yo.jpg

1) Morph: Normal
2) The defect: kinked spine and died in egg
3) Possible reasoning for the defect: Temp drop. During the thermostat malfunction it went down to the mid 70s. Not sure exactly how long, but probably 24 hours or more.
4) The parental pairing: Leopard het Pied x Spider het Pied
5) Total number of clutches and/or hatchlings you have produced: This was my first.
6) Photos: above
7) Any other information that you wish to include: Five clutchmates came out fine. This was the only normal in the clutch. The egg this snake came out of was attached to and half underneath another egg.

The largest egg in the clutch was originally on top of both this egg and one other. A healthy female spider hatched out of the egg on top, but I had problems with both eggs on bottom. One went bad after the temp drop and has to be removed because it grew fungus. The other contained this kinked baby normal. Maybe their positioning made them more susceptible to the temp drop?