NERD Genetic Certification?

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Have you heard back from NERD yet? Try calling them and asking to speak to Kevin personally. This is a case about his reputation on the line, i would say thats pretty important.

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:confused: This has nothing to do with Kevin's reputation. The original poster did not purchase the snakes from NERD. That's definitely not what their genetics guarantee/paperwork looks like, either.

Additionally, the only reptile show in NH is put on by the folks at http://www.reptileexpo.com/nefirst.htm Their fall show is normally in September. Wouldn't be too hard to contact them and see whether or not they even had an August show last year.

$.02...

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Originally Posted by Kara

:confused: This has nothing to do with Kevin's reputation. The original poster did not purchase the snakes from NERD. That's definitely not what their genetics guarantee/paperwork looks like, either.

Additionally, the only reptile show in NH is put on by the folks at http://www.reptileexpo.com/nefirst.htm Their fall show is normally in September. Wouldn't be too hard to contact them and see whether or not they even had an August show last year.

$.02...

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I contacted NERD to see if they could tell me if the paperwork is real or fake, I also looked up shows in New Hampshire where he said he purchased them from, and there wasn't one on August 14th, 2011 (the day he claims he bought them)....this dude is full of complete rubbish.

I also don't think I should involve NERD, it is not their fault some scumbag decided to rip me off claiming the snakes came from them.

If the Bryan or Anthony (whoever is the "adult" here) doesn't refund my money soon I will either A. get lawyers involved or B. Drive the 4 hours to his house and handle it myself in a very mature way. (no threat there)

If any of you think it is necessary to annoy this dude into giving my money back or a REAL pair of hets clowns his emails are:

bap602@gmail.com
ajp1488@hotmail.com

and his phone number is 845 270 2622 ;)

I do not think this really has any bearing on NERD, unless by some miracle the paperwork is real. Otherwise it is just some jackwagon ripping people off. They can contact him to stop claiming their stock, but really legally pressing the issue could be difficult.

Either way, I would out this on the BOI and any other board you are a member of. There are still tons of guys who have TERRIBLE BOI reps still in business, but it should help.

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Originally Posted by Kara

:confused: This has nothing to do with Kevin's reputation. The original poster did not purchase the snakes from NERD. That's definitely not what their genetics guarantee/paperwork looks like, either.

Additionally, the only reptile show in NH is put on by the folks at http://www.reptileexpo.com/nefirst.htm Their fall show is normally in September. Wouldn't be too hard to contact them and see whether or not they even had an August show last year.

$.02...

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For those of you newer to the hobby, Kara worked at NERD for many years.

Her confirmation that that was not NERD paperwork is all the OP really needs at this point.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

YES start a BOI! In the past many have been able to get back something or work it out. I am sorry you are going through such BS. I have only one non visual trio of animals. They came from a reputable breeder with photo ID and signed genetic guarantee. This year should produce visuals from this trio. Jerks like this guy makes it hard for smaller breeders to sell legitimate HETS. I wish you luck in getting this situation resolved.

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Originally Posted by trivtrivsocal

YES start a BOI! In the past many have been able to get back something or work it out. I am sorry you are going through such BS. I have only one non visual trio of animals. They came from a reputable breeder with photo ID and signed genetic guarantee. This year should produce visuals from this trio. Jerks like this guy makes it hard for smaller breeders to sell legitimate HETS. I wish you luck in getting this situation resolved.

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I don't think a BOI would help in this situation considering that he told me he sold off his remaining snakes at the Hamburg show last weekend, he claims he wants to start breeding Gila Monsters. :confused:

Well i kinda worded that poorly but my point was Kevin probably doesnt want his name being associated with false hets. Plus if i was him id be pissed if someone was trying to use my company's name to pass off fake hets. That was more my point, not in any way trying to say kevins rep will be tarnished :)
And kara im really jealous you got to work at NERD!!! Lucky!

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Originally Posted by DavidMundy

I contacted NERD to see if they could tell me if the paperwork is real or fake, I also looked up shows in New Hampshire where he said he purchased them from, and there wasn't one on August 14th, 2011 (the day he claims he bought them)....this dude is full of complete rubbish.

I also don't think I should involve NERD, it is not their fault some scumbag decided to rip me off claiming the snakes came from them.

If the Bryan or Anthony (whoever is the "adult" here) doesn't refund my money soon I will either A. get lawyers involved or B. Drive the 4 hours to his house and handle it myself in a very mature way. (no threat there)

If any of you think it is necessary to annoy this dude into giving my money back or a REAL pair of hets clowns his emails are:

bap602@gmail.com
ajp1488@hotmail.com

and his phone number is 845 270 2622 ;)

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Only 2 hrs away from me. Let me know, id be happy to help ;)

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Originally Posted by DavidMundy

Yes, here a pictures from a thread he "or his son" posted, it is the exact snakes I have in my possession.

And here are photos of the snakes that I just took, as you can see, exact match

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m...Picture006.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m...Picture002.jpg

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I know you never recieved paperwork, but, those snakes are definitely het Clown. I'm 99.9% sure and would almost be willing to offer you the money back if they don't prove out(even though I didn't sell them to you). Good luck on your paper hunt though.

I have never thought of banning anyone from any site but I really think the MODS should have a group powwow about this (words I know I cant type on this site).
He has ads posted in the classified section that should be removed as well showing that this forum will not tolerate any type of shady screwings amoung its members.:gj:
Just my :2cent:

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

I know you never recieved paperwork, but, those snakes are definitely het Clown. I'm 99.9% sure and would almost be willing to offer you the money back if they don't prove out(even though I didn't sell them to you). Good luck on your paper hunt though.

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I hope your right, if not I spent $300 on some normals :banana:

The problem with paperwork is it doesn't matter if it's real or fake when your going through a 3rd party. He could have bought real hets, received actual NERD paperwork, and then easily scanned in the photo of the fake hets he's selling.

Paperwork is only as good as the breeder you're buying from. If you don't trust the snakes to be het without attached paperwork, pass on the seller.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

I know you never recieved paperwork, but, those snakes are definitely het Clown. I'm 99.9% sure and would almost be willing to offer you the money back if they don't prove out(even though I didn't sell them to you). Good luck on your paper hunt though.

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Thats a gutsy call. Do you have a wheelbarrow to carry around your huge kahones in lol?

But really have you read through the entire thread? Seems like the guy is being awfully shady here. Also how can you tell? Ive seen normals that look like that.

Wondering the same thing?

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Originally Posted by DavidMundy

I don't think a BOI would help in this situation considering that he told me he sold off his remaining snakes

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It would help oust this guy for future prospective buyers as well as put some pressure on him to make things right with you.

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Originally Posted by John1982

It would help oust this guy for future prospective buyers as well as put some pressure on him to make things right with you.

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I highly doubt he will be getting into ball pythons again, according to him. But I will be glad to post one to avoid this in the future if possible, could someone help me out posting one? Dont know how to go about it.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

I have never thought of banning anyone from any site but I really think the MODS should have a group powwow about this (words I know I cant type on this site).
He has ads posted in the classified section that should be removed as well showing that this forum will not tolerate any type of shady screwings amoung its members.:gj:
Just my :2cent:

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We have - go view his ads....

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Thats a gutsy call. Do you have a wheelbarrow to carry around your huge kahones in lol?

But really have you read through the entire thread? Seems like the guy is being awfully shady here. Also how can you tell? Ive seen normals that look like that.

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Light heads, yellow/brown/washed out color, looks like het clown to me!

EDIT: and the "wild type pattern"

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Originally Posted by DavidMundy

I don't think a BOI would help in this situation considering that he told me he sold off his remaining snakes at the Hamburg show last weekend, he claims he wants to start breeding Gila Monsters. :confused:

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Just a point......Gila Monsters in most states are illegal or need a licence to own...... what are the chances he has one of these licences..... you do have his address.....;)

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Originally Posted by M&H

Just a point......Gila Monsters in most states are illegal or need a licence to own...... what are the chances he has one of these licences..... you do have his address.....;)

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He hasn't responded to my texts, emails, or calls for over 24 hours now. This is me texting him all day


Fwd: Can you send me the CC receipt now?
Fwd: Still waiting on the cc receipt
Fwd: Nvm don't even bother sending the cc receipt, I want a refund or you make good on the deal and buy me a REAL pair of het clowns, the papers are fake, if you don't answer me in a reasonable time I will assume you are not gonna make good on this deal and I will get a lawyer involved
Fwd: So refund my full payment and I will ship the snakes back to you, or refund me $200 and I keep the snakes
Fwd: Your being real mature about this, what happened to "I'm a strong believer in karma"....dude answer me I want my money back, stop being a scumbag
Fwd: I'm going to flag you on every reptile website, going to put your name out there so NO ONE will ever buy from you again
Fwd: Oh and BTW hope you have a venomous reptile license or permit, cause I'm calling authorities about your Gila Monster, have a great day =]]

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Originally Posted by DavidMundy

I don't think a BOI would help in this situation considering that he told me he sold off his remaining snakes at the Hamburg show last weekend, he claims he wants to start breeding Gila Monsters.

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The way this guy has jumped around from herp to herp, you never know what he might try getting into next. Outting this guy for the whole herp community would be a public service.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

those snakes are definitely het Clown. I'm 99.9% sure

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Please explain what you are basing this very strong statement on?

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Originally Posted by BigJ

Light heads, yellow/brown/washed out color, looks like het clown to me!

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I've seen a thousand Normals that look just like that, and none of them were Het Clown.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Thats a gutsy call. Do you have a wheelbarrow to carry around your huge kahones in lol?

But really have you read through the entire thread? Seems like the guy is being awfully shady here. Also how can you tell? Ive seen normals that look like that.

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Call it what you want to call it. That is my opinion, I'm entitled to it. I'm not backing the seller up by any means. I was purely talking about the snakes. Het clowns have a look to them, I'm sorry if you can't see what I'm talking about.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

Call it what you want to call it. That is my opinion, I'm entitled to it. I'm not backing the seller up by any means. I was purely talking about the snakes. Het clowns have a look to them, I'm sorry if you can't see what I'm talking about.

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Could you explain a little about why you think they could be het clowns? I'm curious about why you think so. I read posts about its possible to spot them and other posts that say it can't be done. I can send more pictures if necessary.

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Originally Posted by Slim

I've seen a thousand Normals that look just like that, and none of them were Het Clown.

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Did you breed them out? If not, how do you know they weren't het clown. Google het clowns and compare the pics. There are variances of course, but, they all have a general look that is different than your average normal.

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Originally Posted by DavidMundy

Could you explain a little about why you think they could be het clowns? I'm curious about why you think so. I read posts about its possible to spot them and other posts that say it can't be done. I can send more pictures if necessary.

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This is what tells me they look like hets. High white around the aliens heads, clean overall look, lots of blushing, blushed out head, and head spots. When they prove out for you, make sure you post your pictuers in this thread so you can prove me right.:P


I know you started this thread about genetic IDs from NERD, but, this thread has obviously turned into a bash fest on the seller of these animals. Do you not want them to be hets or something? How would that fix the fact that you spent your money with somebody you don't trust. And if you had doubts on these animals or the paperwork why did you seal the deal? You really should take this conversation on the seller to BOI, you will actually make headway on putting this guy out of sales over there if your are right and he really ripped you off.

I wanted to add something about the ripping you off thing. You cannot make claims about him ripping you off until you actually breed the animals out. It's not like he sold you a normal and called it a Lesser. Good luck on the whole deal and I hope you don't break yourself by retaining a lawyer for a 300 dollar sale. Even if the guy loses in court somebody has to pay the lawyer and due to the fact that you didn't lose anything other than the price of the animal you will most likely be paying for the cost of the attorney out of your own pocket unless you sue for his cost also, but you will end up paying out up front. This whole thing is a great teacher on why you should only buy from trusted people. If you impulse buy in this industry you can be had very fast.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

they all have a general look that is different than your average normal.

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I beg to differ, Sir.

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Originally Posted by Slim

I beg to differ, Sir.

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So be it.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

I wanted to add something about the ripping you off thing. You cannot make claims about him ripping you off until you actually breed the animals out.

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Regardless of if the snakes turn out het or not, surely you would agree that it is ripping someone off to use fraudulent paperwork? Maybe the OP wanted snakes that originated from NERD. Either way, it's still wrong to forge paperwork documents and that solidly marks down the seller as scam artist in my book however the snakes turn out.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

This is what tells me they look like hets. High white around the aliens heads, clean overall look, lots of blushing, blushed out head, and head spots. When they prove out for you, make sure you post your pictuers in this thread so you can prove me right.:P


I know you started this thread about genetic IDs from NERD, but, this thread has obviously turned into a bash fest on the seller of these animals. Do you not want them to be hets or something? How would that fix the fact that you spent your money with somebody you don't trust. And if you had doubts on these animals or the paperwork why did you seal the deal? You really should take this conversation on the seller to BOI, you will actually make headway on putting this guy out of sales over there if your are right and he really ripped you off.

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I know what you mean but this thread is also to put this guy on the radar that he is a scammer, I only purchased these "hets" with an agreement that I will receiving LEGITIMATE paperwork about their genetics, which in fact I never did receive and most likely will not. Let me ask you this, you buy a used car off someone, do you not care about the title of the car that you purchased? This is pretty much the same thing, if I wanted to sell these again as hets I couldn't do so because I have no papers on them to prove genetics, just like you couldn't resell a car without the title. By this alone proves I got ripped off and the shady responses and now lack of any response at all by the seller. He commited fraud by showing me a document claiming to be something it is not, that is why he didn't send me the paperwork cause he was smart enough to realize its illegal. If there was no paperwork on these snakes I wouldn't of purchase them, it wasn't that great of a deal to give up. I just trusted the paperwork to be legit.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

Call it what you want to call it. That is my opinion, I'm entitled to it. I'm not backing the seller up by any means. I was purely talking about the snakes. Het clowns have a look to them, I'm sorry if you can't see what I'm talking about.

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I wasnt trying to call you out on it and say youre wrong, i was more asking bc i was curious. Sorry if it sounded that way. I have zero experience with clowns so i wouldnt know tbh. I was under the impression that there were no absolutes with het markers.

You know twisted,...if you were really 99.9% sure you would buy the snakes off of david and prove them out lol! I triple dog dare you :p

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I wasnt trying to call you out on it and say youre wrong, i was more asking bc i was curious. Sorry if it sounded that way. I have zero experience with clowns so i wouldnt know tbh. I was under the impression that there were no absolutes with het markers.

You know twisted,...if you were really 99.9% sure you would buy the snakes off of david and prove them out lol! I triple dog dare you :p

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Lol. I have 4 big poss het girls. If i had the cash and didn't have 5 animals in that project already i would. They have been bred this year by a pastel het clown male. We will see how good my eye for a het clown is.

I bought a trio of unknown hets a few years back because they had a look to them. Everybody on here said they were normal...guess what...they all proved out to be het genetic stripes. I guess what I'm getting at is the fact that not everybody pays attention to detail on these animals. Thank god for people like the barkers or Tom baker or the people who proved out the specters and gravel specters. If it wasn't for people holding on to a small sliver of hope that something is going on, we wouldn't have the vast array of morphs we do. It ok though, for those of you who don't pay attention, keep it up cause it leaves more animals for me to pick through.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

Lol. I have 4 big poss het girls. If i had the cash and didn't have 5 animals in that project already i would. They have been bred this year by a pastel het clown male. We will see how good my eye for a het clown is.

I bought a trio of unknown hets a few years back because they had a look to them. Everybody on here said they were normal...guess what...they all proved out to be het genetic stripes. I guess what I'm getting at is the fact that not everybody pays attention to detail on these animals. Thank god for people like the barkers or Tom baker or the people who proved out the specters and gravel specters. If it wasn't for people holding on to a small sliver of hope that something is going on, we wouldn't have the vast array of morphs we do. It ok though, for those of you who don't pay attention, keep it up cause it leaves more animals for me to pick through.

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When i start to get into recessives down the road in a few years, im calling you up lol!

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

I wanted to add something about the ripping you off thing. You cannot make claims about him ripping you off until you actually breed the animals out

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True however there is one thing that is disturbing whether they prove out or not and it is the fact that he is falsifying documents and if he does that what else is he guilty of?

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Originally Posted by DavidMundy

I know what you mean but this thread is also to put this guy on the radar that he is a scammer, I only purchased these "hets" with an agreement that I will receiving LEGITIMATE paperwork about their genetics, which in fact I never did receive and most likely will not. Let me ask you this, you buy a used car off someone, do you not care about the title of the car that you purchased? This is pretty much the same thing, if I wanted to sell these again as hets I couldn't do so because I have no papers on them to prove genetics, just like you couldn't resell a car without the title. By this alone proves I got ripped off and the shady responses and now lack of any response at all by the seller. He commited fraud by showing me a document claiming to be something it is not, that is why he didn't send me the paperwork cause he was smart enough to realize its illegal. If there was no paperwork on these snakes I wouldn't of purchase them, it wasn't that great of a deal to give up. I just trusted the paperwork to be legit.

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David, I PERSONALLY would never buy hets from somebody without papers on hand unless they were somebody I trusted or they were reputable. If you do so, then you are the one that made the mistake. Are you new to this hobby? If so I will give it to you, you didn't know what goes on in this hobby some times. If you have been in for a while, then you should check your procedures. I sucks, I know. I wish we could trust everybody. The problem is the fact that there is too much money to be made and people take advantage of peoples fascinations. Looks at Ballbids for example.

[QUOTE=Deborah;1819462]

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

I wanted to add something about the ripping you off thing. You cannot make claims about him ripping you off until you actually breed the animals out [\quote] True however there is one thing that is disturbing whether they prove out or not and it is the fact that he is falsifying documents and if he does that what else is he guilty of?

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I get what you are saying Deborah. On the other hand, somebody is selling snakes and doesn't have the paperwork on hand. With our experiences, we should assume he doesn't have them or he is a scammer. Those are TYPICALLY the scenarios we see so often. Then guys like this guy do stupid stuff to cover their tracks up. Again, we are back at the same point. You should never buy het or snakes for that matter from somebody you don't trust or that doesn't have a positive rep.

I mean really guys, when are we going to learn???? I have read enough and seen enough to skip the shame on them step. If something bad happens, shame on me. I should have known better...Right?

Let me add this, I am no means backing the guy up. What he did was wrong and sucks for anybody to have to deal with. Major lesson for the newbs to learn off of here.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

Let me add this, I am no means backing the guy up. What he did was wrong and sucks for anybody to have to deal with. Major lesson for the newbs to learn off of here.

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These were the first snakes I ever purchased online and I am new to breeding but have had ball pythons since I was 6. Lesson learned though and I'll just have to bite the bullet an take the loss. Thanks for all the help though guys I appreciate it.

Also, don't wanna post another thread but has anyone ever purchased from nicebalz.com?

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Originally Posted by DavidMundy

These were the first snakes I ever purchased online and I am new to breeding but have had ball pythons since I was 6. Lesson learned though and I'll just have to bite the bullet an take the loss. Thanks for all the help though guys I appreciate it.

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like I said those snakes look promising... Good luck on proving them out!

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Originally Posted by Kara

:confused: This has nothing to do with Kevin's reputation. The original poster did not purchase the snakes from NERD. That's definitely not what their genetics guarantee/paperwork looks like, either.

Additionally, the only reptile show in NH is put on by the folks at http://www.reptileexpo.com/nefirst.htm Their fall show is normally in September. Wouldn't be too hard to contact them and see whether or not they even had an August show last year.

$.02...

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I don't think anyone meant to dirty NERDs reputation by any of this, just concerned people wanting to let them know that this is happening which is illegal...
If I was NERD I would want to know if someone was scamming people using my genetic guarantee (whether it be obviously bogus to the buyer or not).



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by DavidMundy

Also, don't wanna post another thread but has anyone ever purchased from nicebalz.com?

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My first online purchase was from Garrick and it was a great experience.
Royalconstrictordesigns.com
Shipping is flat rate and the animals are very high quality and prices are definitely fair...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by DavidMundy

Also, don't wanna post another thread but has anyone ever purchased from nicebalz.com?

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What are you looking to add next?
The only order I have done was from rabernet, everything else is local;)

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

What are you looking to add next?
The only order I have done was from rabernet, everything else is local;)

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Was thinking about buying a younger pastel het clown male from somewhere and then a female adult het clown from Justin Kobylka, breeding it to the male "het clown" from the dude who this thread is about to try an prove it out.

If he is getting into Gilas that's a bad choice, if I'm correct I remember seeing a 845 area code(upstate ny area code around Middletown,) and it is illegal to own ANY venomous reptile in NY. So he will be in some big trouble! And if you
Need any help just let me know info camping in wurtsburrow during the summer sonim in a 845 area code also(only catching snakes I get, not to
Many snakes on LI:mad:) keep us posted.
Tom

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Originally Posted by DavidMundy

Was thinking about buying a younger pastel het clown male from somewhere and then a female adult het clown from Justin Kobylka, breeding it to the male "het clown" from the dude who this thread is about to try an prove it out.

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You might think about a visual male? The het to unknown het might not be a good thing unless you have great luck LOL

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

You might think about a visual male? The het to unknown het might not be a good thing unless you have great luck LOL

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I think he wants to take the PH male he has and breed it to the het female from someone, so a visual male prob will do nothing since he still has to raise the PH female up to breeding size.
You best best is trying to find a breeder(or close to breeder) size female clown but that will cost you some $$$$. I would just get a visual female baby raise it up then breed your PH male to her and also to your PH female. You will end up with some normals, 100% hey clowns, and possibly clowns if the PHs prove out. But it will take some time.
Tom

I think I'm going to buy an adult visual male clown and an adult het clown female from Justin, breed the visual male to my "het clown" female I already have to try an prove it out.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

Did you breed them out? If not, how do you know they weren't het clown. Google het clowns and compare the pics. There are variances of course, but, they all have a general look that is different than your average normal.

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You could not possibly be more wrong about this. The idea that you could possibly pick two snakes that look exactly like those out of a random group of bps and have them prove to be het Clown is astronomically impossible. Having personally hatched hundreds of het clowns I can personally say they come in every variation of the normal "wild type" and have no markers or special look to them.

Not posting this to call you out, only to educate those who would be mislead by your post."

This might be a long reply.....sorry

@DavidMundy- i know i'm a newby to the forum but i have spent the last 30+ minutes reading every single one post and reply, i want to apologize for the idiot who sold you those snakes. they could be, they could not be het clowns, but IMHO they could be something else, every normal i've come across is not that light, to me they kind of look like vanillaish or fireish. but then again could just be light colored normals. thats my opinion.

Every friday i volunteer with Kevin at NERD, i have tomorrow off and plan to venture out the 20 minutes from my house to go there and talk to him about a few snakes i plan to purchase from him. i'm sure either Kevin or Andy will be there and be more than happy to know about this situation. I do know kevin is very diligent about keeping records, i know when i purchase some of my higher end snakes from him he retains a copy of my name for their record. It wont hurt me to ask if there is a record. if you like message me what the persons first and last name is and i will be more than happy to further inquire about that.

as for the visual traits of the het clowns. i am 99.9999% positive you cannot visually determine het clowns. even the visual trait of het pieds are not 100% accurate. as far as googling information about anything or doing any research on the internet i would take any info with a grain of salt due to the fact you can post anything you want on the internet and state that it is true, i would exercise caution in doing so. there are however several books all about ball pythons and genetic markers that help in the cause.

i hope any of this helps, and like i said....i'll inquire with kevin or andy tomorrow and see what info i can get. let me know if theres anymore i can do

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Originally Posted by vdubya98

This might be a long reply.....sorry

@DavidMundy- i know i'm a newby to the forum but i have spent the last 30+ minutes reading every single one post and reply, i want to apologize for the idiot who sold you those snakes. they could be, they could not be het clowns, but IMHO they could be something else, every normal i've come across is not that light, to me they kind of look like vanillaish or fireish. but then again could just be light colored normals. thats my opinion.

Every friday i volunteer with Kevin at NERD, i have tomorrow off and plan to venture out the 20 minutes from my house to go there and talk to him about a few snakes i plan to purchase from him. i'm sure either Kevin or Andy will be there and be more than happy to know about this situation. I do know kevin is very diligent about keeping records, i know when i purchase some of my higher end snakes from him he retains a copy of my name for their record. It wont hurt me to ask if there is a record. if you like message me what the persons first and last name is and i will be more than happy to further inquire about that.

as for the visual traits of the het clowns. i am 99.9999% positive you cannot visually determine het clowns. even the visual trait of het pieds are not 100% accurate. as far as googling information about anything or doing any research on the internet i would take any info with a grain of salt due to the fact you can post anything you want on the internet and state that it is true, i would exercise caution in doing so. there are however several books all about ball pythons and genetic markers that help in the cause.

i hope any of this helps, and like i said....i'll inquire with kevin or andy tomorrow and see what info i can get. let me know if theres anymore i can do

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Thank you very much
His name is Anthony Pagano or Bryan Pagano.