Nothing like a verbal assault from Petsmart....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by packer43064

Absolutely agree! I've been with Petsmart for over 3 years. The policy is for the best of the animal. Petsmart does care about it's animals, they bring every one to the vet if any problem arise and that's policy.

---

I disagree with you on this because every petsmart I've been to I have had bad experiences. :(


Sure they care for SOME of their animals, but when I got to the reptiles section I was disgusted at how they kept them! They were keeping two adult crested geckos in with three OTHER different kinds of geckos/lizards. All shoved into the same little box! And you could tell the cresteds were stressed, they both had lost their tails. The box was probably a 6 inch box on all sides, and there was barely any room to move. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm almost 100% sure that different species should be kept apart.

They also had some of the snakes mixed together, the only one kept alone was the ball python. Same for the toads and frogs. I think this Petsmart had it all wrong :mad:

Maybe this isn't true for all of them, but obviously this petsmart wasn't in it for the good of their animals, and I'm sure it happens quite often.

I've never had an issue with anyone being rude about mice there, just because I don't buy them there. I go to Petco and they know me pretty well by now, they greet me by my name and ask what size mice I need and how many.

I've never had any employee at either pet stores be rude, but the care of animals at both are sometimes unsatisfactory for ME, I don't know about you guys.

I have a friend that breeds rats so I don't have this problem, why cant you just say they are going to be pets? Especially if they are going to be breeders and your not walking in there every week. If you tell them what they want to hear that they are going to be little furry pets, they cannot turn you away by law. Stores can not pick and choose who they sell to. If they did this it would open them up to loads of lawsuits. They can have policies that stipulate a sale, but they cannot say "oh hes telling a lie these aren't going to be pets" that is a judgement=discrimination=big trouble for petsmart. Aside from this I have never had a problem with petsmart by me they have all been pretty cool for whatever I needed. My advice is don't go in looking to pick fights, be nice to them they most likely will be nice in return.

I guess what I don't understand is the fact that the frozen rats are almost the same price as the live animals... Sorry but when I go into a store and see that they are keeping a ball python at 75* and 30% humidity I am a little disgusted. They seem to do their research when it comes to the fuzzy animals but when its a scaly critter they don't give a crap. I'm not basing this on one store, I'm basing it on all the three different Petsmarts that I've been to in my state along with all the Petsmarts I visited while down south. It's not limited to Petsmart. Petco is the same way, possibly worse. There are other pet stores around here (who have a "reptile guy" who breeds balls) they keep them in tanks with no water bowls, no hides, and no heat. I mean COME ON, if you're going to sell something then you need to at least know what the husbandry needs are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carlene16

I disagree with you on this because every petsmart I've been to I have had bad experiences. :(


Sure they care for SOME of their animals, but when I got to the reptiles section I was disgusted at how they kept them! They were keeping two adult crested geckos in with three OTHER different kinds of geckos/lizards. All shoved into the same little box! And you could tell the cresteds were stressed, they both had lost their tails. The box was probably a 6 inch box on all sides, and there was barely any room to move. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm almost 100% sure that different species should be kept apart.

They also had some of the snakes mixed together, the only one kept alone was the ball python. Same for the toads and frogs. I think this Petsmart had it all wrong :mad:

Maybe this isn't true for all of them, but obviously this petsmart wasn't in it for the good of their animals, and I'm sure it happens quite often.

I've never had an issue with anyone being rude about mice there, just because I don't buy them there. I go to Petco and they know me pretty well by now, they greet me by my name and ask what size mice I need and how many.

I've never had any employee at either pet stores be rude, but the care of animals at both are sometimes unsatisfactory for ME, I don't know about you guys.

---

In all honesty there are over 1000 stores it's not that easy to control over 1000 stores. If you think so become a district manager and be in control of about 10-15 stores. You have to visit each store almost every week. All I'm saying is this....if you see this then CALL the careline(aka corporate) or tell upper management as in the store manager. Don't tell the petcare associate they probably are doing what they are told by the petcare manager. Tell some one high up. Believe me, I have visited every store in out district which is 12 or 13, I can't recall and some were a little bit under my personal standards compared to our petsmart, but everyone wasn't doing as you just told me. Every store is NOT like the ones you have just explained. Believe it or not, they do care. When you have thousands of thousands of employees some people don't care and just working for that paycheck or they do care and have the wrong information. I absolutely agree that all of those animals shouldn't be in the same cage, AGREED. Now as the responsible customer which I hope you are, I hope at least you mentioned to someone that they should not be together.

People need to stop basing negative connections with 3-4 stores around them and hating all 1000+ stores. This was not directed soley at you by any means. I'm with Jaybunny here, but I honestly think it doesn't matter what we say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BbyBoa

I have a friend that breeds rats so I don't have this problem, why cant you just say they are going to be pets? Especially if they are going to be breeders and your not walking in there every week. If you tell them what they want to hear that they are going to be little furry pets, they cannot turn you away by law. Stores can not pick and choose who they sell to. If they did this it would open them up to loads of lawsuits. They can have policies that stipulate a sale, but they cannot say "oh hes telling a lie these aren't going to be pets" that is a judgement=discrimination=big trouble for petsmart. Aside from this I have never had a problem with petsmart by me they have all been pretty cool for whatever I needed. My advice is don't go in looking to pick fights, be nice to them they most likely will be nice in return.

---

Thank you, honest and to the point. You look like your in the middle here. Which is good, a honest opinion then. Like I said before....ask for a pet, it's that simple. As a Petsmart employee I did not even know about not selling rats or etc. as feeders, i found out about 6 months after I started when I asked my Petcare manager about it and she admantely said no. I told the customer and she was a little dissapointed, I offered her the frozen rats and said give it a try. It wouldn't be the first 10 bucks you've wasted in this hobby have you, I said. She smiled and got the frozen rat. Now if she asked for a rat, and never said absolutely anything about using it as a feeder then I wouldn't have known and she would have a feeder in the box I just gave her. Either way....happy customer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by packer43064

In all honesty there are over 1000 stores it's not that easy to control over 1000 stores. If you think so become a district manager and be in control of about 10-15 stores. You have to visit each store almost every week. All I'm saying is this....if you see this then CALL the careline(aka corporate) or tell upper management as in the store manager. Don't tell the petcare associate they probably are doing what they are told by the petcare manager. Tell some one high up. Believe me, I have visited every store in out district which is 12 or 13, I can't recall and some were a little bit under my personal standards compared to our petsmart, but everyone wasn't doing as you just told me. Every store is NOT like the ones you have just explained. Believe it or not, they do care. When you have thousands of thousands of employees some people don't care and just working for that paycheck or they do care and have the wrong information. I absolutely agree that all of those animals shouldn't be in the same cage, AGREED. Now as the responsible customer which I hope you are, I hope at least you mentioned to someone that they should not be together.

People need to stop basing negative connections with 3-4 stores around them and hating all 1000+ stores. This was not directed soley at you by any means. I'm with Jaybunny here, but I honestly think it doesn't matter what we say.

---

I did tell two of the employees there and one of them said "Oh, I'm pretty sure it's ohkay." And she made a face and walked away. Like I was crazy or something. :rolleyes:
I also told her the humidity needs to be up too, because both of the cresteds had some stuck sheds which looked pretty nasty.

The thing is for me, I won't visit every petsmart in the world. I visit the one local to me. If they aren't getting it right then I won't go there, and I will probably be biased, and that's just how I am. I get upset when people don't take care of their animals correctly. I've seen this time after time with big chain pet stores.

I understand that there are some great people who work at these places, and they educate people on how these animals are supposed to be taken care of, but those people are rare. Out of all the people you know, how many of them can recite the care of all these species, be it reptiles or the furry ones?

Not many unfortunately. I'm just a firm believer of if you don't know how to take care of an animal you shouldn't have it.

There are two Petsmarts fairly close to me in a neighboring City. They are both awesome stores and seem to take very good care of their animals. However, they carry no reptiles. (City Bylaw - not allowed to own Reptiles :rolleyes:)

I don't ever shop at Petsmart because I am good friends and also a part-time employee at my local Mom&Pop shop, but I used to visit (Petsmart) all the time and enjoyed seeing their animals. It was always so bright, nice and clean. I used to buy a lot of bird toys and fish/fish supplies there and the staff was very helpful. The fish person was very knowledgable and when I was setting up my first community tank before I knew much about fish, she steered me away from the pretty Oscars, and told me why it wasn't a good idea to put them with my Danios and Mollies. :P

There is one question I have for you Petsmart employees. I know it is your policy to refuse the sale of Rodents for feeders, but I heard that also you cannot feed live to your snakes for sale? Is this true? And if so - what do you do with the snakes that absolutely refuse live?


On a side note, it also does bug me that a lot of people think that pet store employees are dumb. (However, a lot of them DO seem to be unkowledgable... So I cannot blame people for assuming we all are.) Although I do not work at a chain store, and I don't know everything about every species, I try my best to stay knowledgable. And when I really do not know the answer, I tell them, and try to help the customer the best I can.

We breed Mice, ASFs, and Hooded Rats as feeders and we rarely have any customer wanting one for a pet. If they do, we special order one for them. We would rather not sell our feeders as pets because they are not socialized. Kind of the same policy, just opposite! We also breed hamsters as pets or feeders, it doesn't matter to us. People do not seem to mind either way. Most customers are understanding. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carlene16

I did tell two of the employees there and one of them said "Oh, I'm pretty sure it's ohkay." And she made a face and walked away. Like I was crazy or something. :rolleyes:
I also told her the humidity needs to be up too, because both of the cresteds had some stuck sheds which looked pretty nasty.

The thing is for me, I won't visit every petsmart in the world. I visit the one local to me. If they aren't getting it right then I won't go there, and I will probably be biased, and that's just how I am. I get upset when people don't take care of their animals correctly. I've seen this time after time with big chain pet stores.

I understand that there are some great people who work at these places, and they educate people on how these animals are supposed to be taken care of, but those people are rare. Out of all the people you know, how many of them can recite the care of all these species, be it reptiles or the furry ones?

Not many unfortunately. I'm just a firm believer of if you don't know how to take care of an animal you shouldn't have it.

---

I respect what you have said. I wouldn't go into a store that repeatedly didn't follow the basic rules of mixing reptiles. I would probably skip that Petsmart too with how your explaining it....the reptiles at least.:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarin

There are two Petsmarts fairly close to me in a neighboring City. They are both awesome stores and seem to take very good care of their animals. However, they carry no reptiles. (City Bylaw - not allowed to own Reptiles :rolleyes:)

I don't ever shop at Petsmart because I am good friends and also a part-time employee at my local Mom&Pop shop, but I used to visit (Petsmart) all the time and enjoyed seeing their animals. It was always so bright, nice and clean. I used to buy a lot of bird toys and fish/fish supplies there and the staff was very helpful. The fish person was very knowledgable and when I was setting up my first community tank before I knew much about fish, she steered me away from the pretty Oscars, and told me why it wasn't a good idea to put them with my Danios and Mollies. :P

There is one question I have for you Petsmart employees. I know it is your policy to refuse the sale of Rodents for feeders, but I heard that also you cannot feed live to your snakes for sale? Is this true? And if so - what do you do with the snakes that absolutely refuse live?
On a side note, it also does bug me that a lot of people think that pet store employees are dumb. (However, a lot of them DO seem to be unkowledgable... So I cannot blame people for assuming we all are.) Although I do not work at a chain store, and I don't know everything about every species, I try my best to stay knowledgable. And when I really do not know the answer, I tell them, and try to help the customer the best I can.

We breed Mice, ASFs, and Hooded Rats as feeders and we rarely have any customer wanting one for a pet. If they do, we special order one for them. We would rather not sell our feeders as pets because they are not socialized. Kind of the same policy, just opposite! We also breed hamsters as pets or feeders, it doesn't matter to us. People do not seem to mind either way. Most customers are understanding. :)

---

Hopefully Jaybunny can answer that question. I do not work in the Petcare department so I don't know everything. Hopefully she does. Never thought about the fact that the rats, and etc. wouldn't be socialized so it would be best not to sell as a feeder. Good info there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by packer43064

I respect what you have said. I wouldn't go into a store that repeatedly didn't follow the basic rules of mixing reptiles. I would probably skip that Petsmart too with how your explaining it....the reptiles at least.:)

---

All the other animals were in great care, just not the reptiles :( And I have to admit that I am partial to reptiles. I think most people on this website are :)

Yay for the people who take care of their animals properly :) I love those people!

If we have an animal that won't eat frozen we have to try and once we see frozen won't work, if im not mistaken we have to have a veterinarian "prescribe" live food. Or at least that is how I was told it works.

I will write a longer reply tomorrow when I am on the computer.

At the very least, any snake should eat pre-killed.

In the UK it's against the law to feed live animals to snakes. The law says you can't 'Cause the animal any un-necessary harm' and specifically, you have to euthanize the animal first, or it goes through un-necessary pain according to that law.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhasputin

At the very least, any snake should eat pre-killed.

In the UK it's against the law to feed live animals to snakes. The law says you can't 'Cause the animal any un-necessary harm' and specifically, you have to euthanize the animal first, or it goes through un-necessary pain according to that law.

---

I deff. see what you are saying, and I think it is much easier to feed F/T, but in the states a lot of times if you don't start your snake on F/T then getting him or her to switch can be a huge pain, especially if you have a picky BP. I know a lot of people that don't want to risk switching when there snake that just cost a few thousand dollars isn't eating because they don't like F/T. The easiest thing for them to do in that situation is just toss a live in. Really even is same concept even if your snakes are not top of the line and expensive. You can probably make the switch eventually when its been a few months and your snake is absolutely starving, but not many people want to put themselves or there snakes through that unless there is no other option.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhasputin

At the very least, any snake should eat pre-killed.

In the UK it's against the law to feed live animals to snakes. The law says you can't 'Cause the animal any un-necessary harm' and specifically, you have to euthanize the animal first, or it goes through un-necessary pain according to that law.

---

Sorry couldn't disagree with this post more.
If "at the very least, any snake should eat pre-killed" then explain why almost every snake breeder feeds live?
Also what the UK does, doesn't mean it's what we should do either. NY city all boas and pythons are illegal, maybe we should follow those laws also.

Why would I have to explain why anyone feeds live?

I'm saying there should be no trouble getting any snake to eat pre-killed food. :P


My neighbor breeds ball pythons, and he was convinced his snakes would never eat pre-killed. But I gave him some, because I don't sell live as food, and his snakes took to them just fine. :)

Some snakes don't like F/T and with good reason, but pre-killed shouldn't be a problem for any reptile. :)

Hi,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhasputin

In the UK it's against the law to feed live animals to snakes.

---

No it isn't.

This comes up fairly often even in the UK though. It is illegal to feed one live animal to another for the purposes of entertainment though. So all those youtube videos of idiots whoopping and cheering on the action would result in prosecutions.

It is illegal to mistreat any animal or withold vetinary treatment from an animal you know requires it. So if you bring home a live feeder animal you would be wise to have an enclosure suitable for it along with food and water in case it gets refused - but that holds true everywhere as simply common sense.

I'm not saying the RSPCA or SSPCA are exactly happy about it and might ask you some questions about procedure etc but it is most definately legal to feed a live rodent to your snake.

The problem with this is the RSPCA couldn't find their bum with both hands in their back pockets in regards to reptiles 99% of the time. :rolleyes:

It may be worth noting however that the reason I wince every time I read a post telling someone to bash a rodent over the head or put it in a pillowcase and swing it against a wall is that, over here, you would be charged with animal cruelty and every single animal you own confiscated and rehomed.

And it would be years before you were allowed to own any animal again - if you ever were at all.


dr del

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dr del

The problem with this is the RSPCA couldn't find their bum with both hands in their back pockets in regards to reptiles 99% of the time. :rolleyes:

---

:rofl:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dr del

It may be worth noting however that the reason I wince every time I read a post telling someone to bash a rodent over the head or put it in a pillowcase and swing it against a wall is that, over here, you would be charged with animal cruelty and every single animal you own confiscated and rehomed.
And it would be years before you were allowed to own any animal again - if you ever were at all.

---

Indeed.

Jay Bunny...your store was not always that way. I remember when you first started working there and the beardies were being underfed. I must say good on you for getting their reptile care under control.

Bottom line if they don't want to sell to you...they don't have to. However with that being said...going through that many channels to pick up 2 mice is a bit over kill and quite frankly insulting. But I have to say....that was a great line...."were they born that way". My husband and I laughed our booties off.

I feed live and will continue to feed live!!

I will probably switch to feeding 100% of my snakes live soon (when I begin breeding my own) so I'm definitely not against feeding live at all.

BPelizabeth - Yep, I whipped my co-workers and managers into shape! We now have fat happy beardies.

even breeding your own, you're still better off feeding pk as opposed to live. i have hundreds if not thousands of rodents born every month and not 1 of my over 50 snakes HAS to eat live, they will ALL take pre-killed. if they take pk or ft there's no reason to feed them live, especially to switch them over to it. you're just asking for your snake to get hurt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BAMReptiles

even breeding your own, you're still better off feeding pk as opposed to live. i have hundreds if not thousands of rodents born every month and not 1 of my over 50 snakes HAS to eat live, they will ALL take pre-killed. if they take pk or ft there's no reason to feed them live, especially to switch them over to it. you're just asking for your snake to get hurt.

---

There are reasons why I feed live. My rats are as precious to me as the snakes... they don't die unless they have to. So, when the ball pythons skip meals like they often do, the rats get to live another week.

And about "asking for my snake to get hurt"... today, my son came home with this big gash running down his shin about 1.5 inches wide and 4 inches long. He fell off the playground. He doesn't HAVE to play in the playground... there are a lot of things he can do to expend all that extra energy. So, letting him run around the playground is just asking for him to get hurt. Okay, so what's my point? Well, mainly that boys play in the playground and snakes eat live rats. That's pretty much the way things work around my house. We mitigate accidents by being careful. So far, the boys are still healthy and so are the snakes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anatess

There are reasons why I feed live. My rats are as precious to me as the snakes... they don't die unless they have to. So, when the ball pythons skip meals like they often do, the rats get to live another week.

And about "asking for my snake to get hurt"... today, my son came home with this big gash running down his shin about 1.5 inches wide and 4 inches long. He fell off the playground. He doesn't HAVE to play in the playground... there are a lot of things he can do to expend all that extra energy. So, letting him run around the playground is just asking for him to get hurt. Okay, so what's my point? Well, mainly that boys play in the playground and snakes eat live rats. That's pretty much the way things work around my house. We mitigate accidents by being careful. So far, the boys are still healthy and so are the snakes.

---

I agree 100%, I dont live my life in a bubble and snakes don't have to either, if they prefer live and you have the means to give them live and thats what you want to do, don't live in fear of your snake getting hurt, they have been killing live prey forever, and its natural. Now having said that, there prey in the wild is not locked in a box with them, so if you are going to feed live, watch the process to make sure nothing happens to your snake DO NOT JUST DROP IN LIVE AND WALK AWAY. This is dangerous for your snake and they can be hurt this way.

even watching them, they can still get bit, you dont control how the snake grabs the rat. point was better safe than sorry. if you're that worried about having an extra dead rat, you could always bonk em on the head to stun them instead of kill them.

I don't really know how this turned into a debate over live vs. pre-killed but I'll give my two cents anyway. Ball pythons live to eat, hide, and poop. I don't believe in taking anymore natural instincts away from them then absolutely necessary. I think that once a week they should be allowed to stalk, kill, and eat their prey. Not to mention that such lazy animals need a bit of exercise. Now I've been feeding live the whole time I've had snakes and only one time did anyone get hurt. And that was because my boyfriend accidentally dropped a rather large rat right on Louise and it scratched her eye. She was fine a shed later. No scars, no fuss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BAMReptiles

even watching them, they can still get bit, you dont control how the snake grabs the rat. point was better safe than sorry. if you're that worried about having an extra dead rat, you could always bonk em on the head to stun them instead of kill them.

---

And then when the snake doesn't eat the rat, you have a rat waking up who is in a lot of pain. I don't know about you, but when I get hit on the head, it hurts like heck and it doesn't make me a very happy person. And you possibly have a brain damaged animal, depending on how hard they were hit. Leaving them to live like that, in my opinion, is animal cruelty.

My animals get either f/t, pre-killed, or live. No stunning rodents in this house. I am very careful when I feed live. I am always there to intervene should something go wrong. So far, nothing has gone wrong. I always have tongs in hand because if a rat or house does happen to get wrapped up in a bad position, I can easily stick the end of the tongs in the rodent's mouth and let him chew on that until he dies, instead of him chewing on my snake. I have been keeping snakes for 4 years now and not a single one of my snakes has been bitten by a rodent while in my care.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

And then when the snake doesn't eat the rat, you have a rat waking up who is in a lot of pain. I don't know about you, but when I get hit on the head, it hurts like heck and it doesn't make me a very happy person. And you possibly have a brain damaged animal, depending on how hard they were hit. Leaving them to live like that, in my opinion, is animal cruelty.

My animals get either f/t, pre-killed, or live. No stunning rodents in this house. I am very careful when I feed live. I am always there to intervene should something go wrong. So far, nothing has gone wrong. I always have tongs in hand because if a rat or house does happen to get wrapped up in a bad position, I can easily stick the end of the tongs in the rodent's mouth and let him chew on that until he dies, instead of him chewing on my snake. I have been keeping snakes for 4 years now and not a single one of my snakes has been bitten by a rodent while in my care.

---

x2 :gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

And then when the snake doesn't eat the rat, you have a rat waking up who is in a lot of pain. I don't know about you, but when I get hit on the head, it hurts like heck and it doesn't make me a very happy person. And you possibly have a brain damaged animal, depending on how hard they were hit. Leaving them to live like that, in my opinion, is animal cruelty.

My animals get either f/t, pre-killed, or live. No stunning rodents in this house. I am very careful when I feed live. I am always there to intervene should something go wrong. So far, nothing has gone wrong. I always have tongs in hand because if a rat or house does happen to get wrapped up in a bad position, I can easily stick the end of the tongs in the rodent's mouth and let him chew on that until he dies, instead of him chewing on my snake. I have been keeping snakes for 4 years now and not a single one of my snakes has been bitten by a rodent while in my care.

---

thats great and all, but trust me it CAN happen fast enough that even with you standing there with your tongs, you might not be able to be fast enough. and if you dont want stunned ones and they eat f/t why not just freeze it if the snake wont eat it? or offer it to another snake?

sorry for getting it off track but i just dont see the logic in switching snakes from f/t or pk to live

for the record, i kill mine instantly, offer them to a snake, and if that snake doesnt take it they get offered to another and so on and so on. if by some crazy event none of them would eat it, it would go in the freezer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ice#1

i been doing some thinking and seeing how petsmart refuses to sell to those in the reptile world live feeders then i think as a group we should all picket them for there heartlessly selling other feeders off live as every type of feeder can be kept as a pet by somebody even crickets that means no buying even cages or water bottles from them

---

No thank you, I'll opt out of that idea.

It's really not that earth shattering to me and my snakes, and besides, I like my local Petsmart and the employees. They know I keep snakes, the manager even gives me the mis-sexed mice, because she can't sell them (they only sell females at this location), and she knows what their fate will be when she gives them to me.

They've sold me many rats over the years, knowing that they were going to become breeders. They also stop me when I come in to ask me to take a look at different reptiles that they get in and have been known to page me when they knew I was in the store and had someone inquiring about the snakes.

And many people don't see logic in switching to frozen thawed when if done correctly, is a perfectly acceptable method of feeding.

If breeding my own rodents, and I have live rodents ready for feeding, why on Earth would I go all the way to the grocery store, pay $9 for a bag of dry ice (most of which I won't use so its wasted), line a cooler with a trash bag, CO2 a bunch of rodents, and THEN feed them to my snake. If I wanted to spend money and take a car ride, I wouldn't be breeding my own in the first place. And I can't offer pre-killed rodents because I do not know any other methods other than CO2ing (which costs money) and spinal dislocation (I think that is the proper term) and I don't know how to properly do the second one.

Look, all I'm saying is that if someone wants to switch to live for convenience, as long as they do it while supervising the feeding and are there to step in if necessary, I don't see why it should be a problem. The frozen/thawed, pre-killed, live debate has gone on for years and will continue to do so. You feed your snakes the way you want. I'll feed my snakes the way I want. I am confidant in my ability to feed live correctly and without injury to any of my snakes.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, OP!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

And many people don't see logic in switching to frozen thawed when if done correctly, is a perfectly acceptable method of feeding.

If breeding my own rodents, and I have live rodents ready for feeding, why on Earth would I go all the way to the grocery store, pay $9 for a bag of dry ice (most of which I won't use so its wasted), line a cooler with a trash bag, CO2 a bunch of rodents, and THEN feed them to my snake. If I wanted to spend money and take a car ride, I wouldn't be breeding my own in the first place. And I can't offer pre-killed rodents because I do not know any other methods other than CO2ing (which costs money) and spinal dislocation (I think that is the proper term) and I don't know how to properly do the second one.

Look, all I'm saying is that if someone wants to switch to live for convenience, as long as they do it while supervising the feeding and are there to step in if necessary, I don't see why it should be a problem. The frozen/thawed, pre-killed, live debate has gone on for years and will continue to do so. You feed your snakes the way you want. I'll feed my snakes the way I want. I am confidant in my ability to feed live correctly and without injury to any of my snakes.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, OP!

---

its pretty easy, you hold the tail and catch the very back of the skull/front of the neck on the corner of a rack/desk/table/whatever. instant death and i do mean instant

As I said, I will switch to live as it will be more convenient for me to do so while breeding my own feeders and I am confident in my ability to feed live correctly.

But thanks for the info on how to euthanize rodents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BAMReptiles

its pretty easy, you hold the tail and catch the very back of the skull/front of the neck on the corner of a rack/desk/table/whatever. instant death and i do mean instant

---

It's fine to have discussions on different methods of feeding your snakes, but please remember to respect each keepers personal choice to feed what works best for them. I feed all of my ball pythons live (except for my albino - simply because I don't want any blemishes like insignificant scratches to show up on him, that the melanin doesn't show on my others).

I've fed well over 13K live prey items without incidence. It works for me and mine to feed live, and I have no compelling reason to change what works for me (and apparently neither do many other live feeders).

We encourage each keeper to feed what works for them, without getting judged or critiqued for their personal choices.

Feeding frozen is NOT better for the health of your animal. It's a biological fact that nutrients are diminished when most food is frozen. Then you have to wonder if the rodent which was killed or euthanized was immediately flash frozen with dry ice, or was it left to freeze slowly in a freezer? Was it set to the side for a few minutes while the freezing tray was filled with more PK rodents to be frozen? Was there any chance of decomposition between killing and freezing?

Considering that decomposition begins at the moment of death, it's impossible to believe or prove that the frozen rodents supplied by petsmart and petco are flash frozen immediately after being killed.

Not to mention, I've seen many complaints of said frozen rodents being dirty, having feces, bedding, fleas or mites on them etc..

I don't care what their company policy is, they are simply wrong. It has nothing to do with how they feel about the animals or animal rights. Otherwise they would know what's healthiest for snakes. Otherwise they would not hold fish and insects lower than rodents.

Remember this fact... Petsmart knowingly contributes to the HSUS. Petco does not. Maybe knowing that will turn some Lightbulbs on upstairs for the reasons behind this "policy".

Also, being pushy or rude or insistent is NOT being a good or helpful sales employee at all.

Nuff said..

http://www.arbreptiles.com/extremists2.shtml

There is another link which is an actual petsmart site with a list of organizations they contribute to and HSUS is there. It's in my postings somewhere but I can't find it right now.

Regular contributions and a $15,000.00 grant??

I know the economy is bad and you need to work wherever you can get hired but working for petsmart is working for the people who are trying to take your reptiles away from you. Not to mention all pets and animal agriculture.

Remember all the evidence the reptile community dug up on HSUS financially supporting the snake ban bills? Where did that money come from?

I don't care where anyone works and I fully understand defending the right of the employees to politely explain the policy, but I do not believe such a corporate policy should ever be supported or enforced. Especially when the poor naive employees and most likely the store owners/managers, have no real idea of the demons and motives behind it.

I'm going to stop now before I get in trouble. It just angers me that we all worked so hard and are still working to save our pets but there are still too many people out there with blinders on.

Kudos to the OP for saying what you did in that store!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

http://www.arbreptiles.com/extremists2.shtml

There is another link which is an actual petsmart site with a list of organizations they contribute to and HSUS is there. It's in my postings somewhere but I can't find it right now.

Regular contributions and a $15,000.00 grant??

I know the economy is bad and you need to work wherever you can get hired but working for petsmart is working for the people who are trying to take your reptiles away from you. Not to mention all pets and animal agriculture.

Remember all the evidence the reptile community dug up on HSUS financially supporting the snake ban bills? Where did that money come from?

I don't care where anyone works and I fully understand defending the right of the employees to politely explain the policy, but I do not believe such a corporate policy should ever be supported or enforced. Especially when the poor naive employees and most likely the store owners/managers, have no real idea of the demons and motives behind it.

I'm going to stop now before I get in trouble. It just angers me that we all worked so hard and are still working to save our pets but there are still too many people out there with blinders on.

Kudos to the OP for saying what you did in that store!

---

I've been with Petsmart for over 3.5 years now.I started at the store level and made my way to the distribution center. My GF has been there for over 4 years and is a Senior in the Petshotel. Your saying because we work here were supporters of the act of trying to ban reptiles. Are you serious. Maybe you live in a world like that, but I'm just trying to make a living. It's a job, I put in my hours they pay us. I don't support everything they do. That's like saying if you work for the Government then everything the government does you agree on. Not right at all.

What do you suppose we do, quit? Bad times or not, I don't agree with everything this company does nor will I quit for something as foolish as that. Petsmart uses frozen because of ease, you unfreeze it and feed it. Simple as that. Plus why recommend live feeders, but then not sell it. You can think the way you want and we all can think the way we want. :D

Just like the people who work under crooked politicians may not agree with the way their bosses may be directly and knowingly helping to put an end to your constitutional rights..

They have a family to feed and bills to pay. In this country of free choice, we have none.

I don't condemn you for working there because I know you probably don't have much choice right now but knowledge and information are always good things to have.

Honestly, knowing what I do, if I had no choice but to work at petsmart I would but I would not be happy to. I would also feel a little guilt and betrayal of the things and people I love most but I would do it.

That said. I'd have a choice because I'd rather work at mcdonalds and get paid more and most likely be promoted to manager in much less time. I detest working at fast food places as well but they don't support killing my hobby and passions.

Your working there does not directly support the HSUS cause but petsmart does. Thus creating the partnership between employer and employee.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Just like the people who work under crooked politicians may not agree with the way their bosses may be directly and knowingly helping to put an end to your constitutional rights..

They have a family to feed and bills to pay. In this country of free choice, we have none.

I don't condemn you for working there because I know you probably don't have much choice right now but knowledge and information are always good things to have.

Honestly, knowing what I do, if I had no choice but to work at petsmart I would but I would not be happy to. I would also feel a little guilt and betrayal of the things and people I love most but I would do it.

That said. I'd have a choice because I'd rather work at mcdonalds and get paid more and most likely be promoted to manager in much less time. I detest working at fast food places as well but they don't support killing my hobby and passions.

Your working there does not directly support the HSUS cause but petsmart does. Thus creating the partnership between employer and employee.

---

For somebody who paints career choices in such black and white colors, I'm surprised you would want to work at McDonalds... you're saying it's a moral imperative to refuse to work at PetSmart because of their support for HSUS that is detrimental to your pets yet you are okay working for McDonalds whose food choices are detrimental to your children's health...

Okay. Whatever, man.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BAMReptiles

thats great and all, but trust me it CAN happen fast enough that even with you standing there with your tongs, you might not be able to be fast enough. and if you dont want stunned ones and they eat f/t why not just freeze it if the snake wont eat it? or offer it to another snake?

sorry for getting it off track but i just dont see the logic in switching snakes from f/t or pk to live

for the record, i kill mine instantly, offer them to a snake, and if that snake doesnt take it they get offered to another and so on and so on. if by some crazy event none of them would eat it, it would go in the freezer.

---

Okay, you believe we shouldn't feed live because of the rare but distinct possibility of injury, yet you are okay with feeding frozen/thawed?

For your information, there is a rare but distinct possibility of your snake dying after eating a frozen rodent that was not properly thawed.

In both cases, you mitigate the possibility of injury by PROPER FEEDING PRACTICE.

If you're going to sit on your high horse, at least be consistent about it.

Ok anatess, that is a silly comparison argument and most of the paragraph directed toward me made little sense.
You totally jumped track..

If I worked at mcdonalds I would not be endangering my 6 year old sons life and hobbies and pets.. Oh wait "man" you have young sons too.. Go figure..

So "whatever man" but this 33 year old MOM feeds her son healthy food and mcdonalds is a rare treat. This "man" of a mom also makes sure her son is being raised with many pets and a very moral and old-world upbringing on learning right from wrong etc.. Just like I was by a very uptight and proper old fashioned mom and dad.

Yes I'd work at a fast food place before I'd work at a petstore with such policy and crooked backstage practices.

Black and white? If that's what you want to call it, but I believe in supporting certain causes and condemning others depending on how it will affect my life and the life of my family. Just like everyone else. I just try to choose my battles a little more intelligently.

Sorry Robin and other mods.. Im done on this one now. You guys know by now that I stand behind my beliefs and hate when people misinterpret or assume. I'm no innocent myself but this will end up in quarantine if I don't shut up lol!

Sincerely.. Monica the "man" the "myth" the "hijacker".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Feeding frozen is NOT better for the health of your animal. It's a biological fact that nutrients are diminished when most food is frozen. Then you have to wonder if the rodent which was killed or euthanized was immediately flash frozen with dry ice, or was it left to freeze slowly in a freezer? Was it set to the side for a few minutes while the freezing tray was filled with more PK rodents to be frozen? Was there any chance of decomposition between killing and freezing?

Considering that decomposition begins at the moment of death, it's impossible to believe or prove that the frozen rodents supplied by petsmart and petco are flash frozen immediately after being killed.=QUOTE]


I don't care what their company policy is, they are simply wrong. It has nothing to do with how they feel about the animals or animal rights. Otherwise they would know what's healthiest for snakes. Otherwise they would not hold fish and insects lower than rodents.

Remember this fact... Petsmart knowingly contributes to the HSUS. Petco does not. Maybe knowing that will turn some Lightbulbs on upstairs for the reasons behind this "policy".

Also, being pushy or rude or insistent is NOT being a good or helpful sales employee at all.

Nuff said..

---

This is a great post, I can give a quick story on buying some bad frozen rats at a local show, which I won't mention the exact show because I am sure it happens more than we think. I purchase about 100 frozen small and medium rats at a very fair, but not a fire sale price on the first day of the show. They will all look perfect when frozen, until you thaw them out. Then not only did I notice fleas all over the rats fur, which are very easy to spot on white rats by the way, I also noticed that more than half of them were severely decomposed. I am talking about when you hold a thawed rat, you can feel the weight, well these had none, i felt every rib and shoulder blade, and the tail you could see the vertebrae clear as day. This isn't an overnight condition, so it just sheds some light on possible problems. Needless to say all rodents were tossed and I took a little loss on that situation, but learned a lesson. I have been in pest control 9 years now and would give a guess that they were sitting dead for 2-3 days before they were frozen. How many nutrients do you think I lost there

There are bonuses to feeding frozen though, no worries about bites, mites or worms if they are frozen for I think it was 30 days to kill anything inside off.
Not to mention, I've seen many complaints of said frozen rodents being dirty, having feces, bedding, fleas or mites on them etc..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Ok anatess, that is a silly comparison argument and most of the paragraph directed toward me made little sense.
You totally jumped track..

If I worked at mcdonalds I would not be endangering my 6 year old sons life and hobbies and pets.. Oh wait "man" you have young sons too.. Go figure..

So "whatever man" but this 33 year old MOM feeds her son healthy food and mcdonalds is a rare treat. This "man" of a mom also makes sure her son is being raised with many pets and a very moral and old-world upbringing on learning right from wrong etc.. Just like I was by a very uptight and proper old fashioned mom and dad.

Yes I'd work at a fast food place before I'd work at a petstore with such policy and crooked backstage practices.

Black and white? If that's what you want to call it, but I believe in supporting certain causes and condemning others depending on how it will affect my life and the life of my family. Just like everyone else. I just try to choose my battles a little more intelligently.

---

I'm not battling with you. I just don't understand your point. Please don't leave the conversation. I feel that this is important.

Political stance is great. That's how we get our voices heard. But, there is such a thing as "barking up the wrong tree".

Okay, let's take your "feeding your children healthy" bit. I do too. Therefore, McDonald's is not a good choice of food for children. But, I don't tell people who work at McDonald's they should avoid working at McDonald's because they support unhealthy practice that is detrimental to children. Because, McDonald's is a lot more than just the petrified chicken nuggets. I'd like to hear your opinion on why you would work at McDonald's when you know they are promoting unhealthy practices.

Juxtapose that with Petsmart. They donated $15K to HSUS, sure. If you are sensitive to the whole HSUS thing, don't buy/work at PetSmart. It is your prerogative as a capitalist consumer and there's completely nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong with lobbying other people not to buy/work at PetSmart as a support to your cause.

But to tell people who work at PetSmart that they are contributing to the HSUS and, therefore, are harming their pets, is too narrow-minded.

For example, PetSmart stood side-by-side with the herp community in opposing HR 669. Another example is that Petsmart Charities is the largest funder of animal welfare in the US dedicated to saving homeless pets by promoting adoption in their own stores.

People who work for PetSmart, by your definition, also support these activities as much as HSUS.

Just for your information, Petsmart donated $15,000 to the HSUS to lend their support to the spay/neuter program. They didn't give them $15,000 so they can harm your ability to own a pet.

The only way I can resolve your statement is to think that you read an article about PetSmart and PetCo giving money to the HSUS and, without further research into the entirety of PetSmart Charities, you chose to react negatively. Hence, my statement... whatever, man. Okay, fine, woman.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anatess

I'm not battling with you. I just don't understand your point. Please don't leave the conversation. I feel that this is important.

Political stance is great. That's how we get our voices heard. But, there is such a thing as "barking up the wrong tree".

Okay, let's take your "feeding your children healthy" bit. I do too. Therefore, McDonald's is not a good choice of food for children. But, I don't tell people who work at McDonald's they should avoid working at McDonald's because they support unhealthy practice that is detrimental to children. Because, McDonald's is a lot more than just the petrified chicken nuggets. I'd like to hear your opinion on why you would work at McDonald's when you know they are promoting unhealthy practices.

Juxtapose that with Petsmart. They donated $15K to HSUS, sure. If you are sensitive to the whole HSUS thing, don't buy/work at PetSmart. It is your prerogative as a capitalist consumer and there's completely nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong with lobbying other people not to buy/work at PetSmart as a support to your cause.

But to tell people who work at PetSmart that they are contributing to the HSUS and, therefore, are harming their pets, is too narrow-minded.

For example, PetSmart stood side-by-side with the herp community in opposing HR 669. Another example is that Petsmart Charities is the largest funder of animal welfare in the US dedicated to saving homeless pets by promoting adoption in their own stores.

People who work for PetSmart, by your definition, also support these activities as much as HSUS.

Just for your information, Petsmart donated $15,000 to the HSUS to lend their support to the spay/neuter program. They didn't give them $15,000 so they can harm your ability to own a pet.

The only way I can resolve your statement is to think that you read an article about PetSmart and PetCo giving money to the HSUS and, without further research into the entirety of PetSmart Charities, you chose to react negatively. Hence, my statement... whatever, man. Okay, fine, woman.

---

I agree, but be careful about giving Petsmart too much credit in backing HR 669. They were very late in backing it, and we all know that they had their own agenda. They would go bankrupt eventually from it especially if the ''everything non-native to this country is banned'' part went through. All of their sales for not only pets, but also cages and supplies and food would disappear. I think they had no choice in backing it, but still half-heartedly applaud them for doing so. They are a huge player in the business and their backing most likely went a long way in squashing the bill for now. I do understand how much pressure they get to take the stances they take and put the policies in place that they have. I used to service Whole Foods and even ones with severe mouse infestations begged me to not harm/kill the mice, and relocate them somewhere else. Yet another policy I didn't agree with. But we met in the middle on that one:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anatess

Okay, you believe we shouldn't feed live because of the rare but distinct possibility of injury, yet you are okay with feeding frozen/thawed?

For your information, there is a rare but distinct possibility of your snake dying after eating a frozen rodent that was not properly thawed.

In both cases, you mitigate the possibility of injury by PROPER FEEDING PRACTICE.

If you're going to sit on your high horse, at least be consistent about it.

---

you might wunna open your eyes and read a little more, i feed mine prekilled. and that risk you stated is 100% within your control to prevent, a live animal injuring the snake is not 100% in your control, no matter how much you may want to claim it is. so its kinda like apples and oranges, thanks for TRYING to play. anyways, im done here now

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by steveboos

Don't hate on all Stores just because you had a bad expierience at ONE of them. Do you know how many thousands of stores we have??

---

Not thousands genius... how about 1100. 1100 bad stores.
Petsmart is the reason I opened my own pet store.
And you are the reason I don't hire idiots.

Long story short, Petsmart has their policies. If you don't agree, don't shop there. I know I certainly won't.
As for policies on live feeding, that's up to the individual. I personally don't feed any frozen to any of my reptiles. And, like I said, that's one of the main reasons I don't shop at Petsmart or Petco, and opened my own pet store.
The Animal Welfare Act is the law regarding care and keep of live animals.
Most pet store employees have never even heard of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jasbus

Not thousands genius... how about 1100. 1100 bad stores.
Petsmart is the reason I opened my own pet store.
And you are the reason I don't hire idiots.

---

:gj: Wow, pointing out a simple mmistake. Maybe he meant over 1000 and just said thousands. To each his own.

Yes, we have 1100 stores but not each and every one of those stores are bad. I will admit, I have heard horror stories and even seen videos of people working undercover at Petsmarts and it is disgusting and a few times, it made me think about why I was even working for this company. Then I remembered. Ever since I was young, I've wanted to work with animals. On this forum, I see post after post after post of people having bad experiences with Petsmart and I thought to myself "Wouldn't it be great if I could work for Petsmart and be able to give people the right information? I could help the animals, and educate people."

So that is what I did. I got a job at Petsmart and my store has completely turned around. Where another store in our area has a full to bursting sick room, we have only 2 birds (one has made a full recovery. We just can't put her on the floor yet), a mouse, and a hamster. We also have a corn snake that I've been working with. We no longer have dying bearded dragons. And if it wasn't for the people who send us fish sending us sick Mollies and albino corys then our fish keeping would be awesome! Our tanks are always so clean!

So when people on here talk about how horrible Petsmart is and how idiotic the employees are, I take a look at the changes my coworkers and I have helped make in our store and I am proud of what I do. Even if I could make a difference in the life of just that one corn snake we have in the back, then I am proud of what I do for a living. Petsmart isn't a bad company. It just hires uneducated people. But when you have a group of people like I work with, who love the animals and are willing to learn about the animals we sell, you have a good store.

I'd love to start my own exotics pet store one day, but I would by no means do it because I hate Petsmart. If anything, the small pet stores around the area are worse than ANY Petsmart in my area. (except Off the Ark, but I don't shop there mainly due to distance)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

(except Off the Ark, but I don't shop there mainly due to distance)

---

Off the Ark doesn't exactly have a great reputation. In fact, they have a horrible reputation if the BOI threads are any indication.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

Petsmart isn't a bad company. It just hires uneducated people. But when you have a group of people like I work with, who love the animals and are willing to learn about the animals we sell, you have a good store.

---

IMO, it takes a pretty bad company to hire people who know nothing about the animals that they will be caring for. It takes an even worse company to not take the time and effort to educate those people that they hired. I applaud you for getting involved at your place of work and bringing the store around, but don't you find it sort of sad that you had to come in and educate your co-workers before anything got done about the sick and improperly housed animals? Don't you think that the people responsible for choosing the animals they are going to sell should have looked into the husbandry needs of the animals before buying them and putting them out on the floor?