Barcelona, Spain Bans bull fights- Opinions

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Why not?

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Agreed.

I pass moral judgments on people all the time, no matter how different or similar their culture is from mine.

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Originally Posted by dc1

without slavery the pyramids would have never been built.... but aside from the inappropriate remark, slave owners didnt get slaves because of tradition, they got them so they could use them for various tasks, not because their great great great grand daddy had slaves. and animals were put on this planet for us to eat, though we should not torture but that is their main purpose.

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I laughed so hard.

Study harder.

I have always hated bull fighting....always!!! I think it is beyond cruel. When it comes to animal cruelty...I really have NO problem pushing my beliefs or at least making them known. Now I also don't believe in hunting...actually hate it. We have many friends and family members that hunt...they ALL know how I feel about it. But I can just agree to disagree in cases where it is not just for sport. When they use the animal totally. No I am not a vegitarian, however I do try to buy free range...no chemicals or crap added...and yes in that respect I realize I am a bit of a hypocrite.

However not sure who brought up keeping the animals in cages as being cruel. I do believe that these CBB animals would probably have a hard time making it outside in most areas. At least in mine...if the coyotes or bobcats didn't get you....the ravens or hawks would. I know some in cages are not kept well however I can only speak for me...they are spoiled as all get out. The beardies even have beds and blankets and are rocked to sleep. Trust me...they ARE living the good life and get outside "wild" time all the time.

We would not be having this debate at all if it involved people. If it was tradition to throw a person in a ring and stab them until they were too terrified to fight anymore and were killed, I'm sure most everyone would think that it is horrible and wrong and rejoice in a ban of it. Yet, since the cruelty involves an animal, it instantly becomes okay to make something suffer because it is "tradition." Just because they are animals, we think it's okay to abuse our power over them, and treat them however we see fit. Same as dog fighting. People do it because they want too, whether it be to make money, or just for fun. Who cares right, it's just a dog.

Animal cruelty is wrong, plain and simple. There is no way to sugar coat it by calling it tradition.

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Originally Posted by dc1

without slavery the pyramids would have never been built.... but aside from the inappropriate remark, slave owners didnt get slaves because of tradition, they got them so they could use them for various tasks, not because their great great great grand daddy had slaves. and animals were put on this planet for us to eat, though we should not torture but that is their main purpose.

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If humans were originally meant to eat meat why do we have the mouth, teeth, stomach acids, and intestines of a herbivore? Why don't we have any physical assets or skills (such as sharp teeth, claws, speed, stealth, etc) that would allows us to catch or kill prey without the artificial use of tools? And why is all of this meat causing us such severe health problems?

I guess that's another whole thread, though;)

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

If humans were originally meant to eat meat why do we have the mouth, teeth, stomach acids, and intestines of a herbivore?

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We absolutely, and beyond any shadow of ANY doubt, do NOT. We have the mouth, teeth, stomach acids, and intestines of an omnivore. You will note that we only have one stomach. Our intestinal tract falls far, FAR short of being up to the task of herbivory. It is dramatically too short for that. All fossil evidence indicates that not only did the first Homo sapiens eat meat, but so did most of our homonid ancestors (just as modern chimpanzees do). Homo neanderthalus (while not presently considered a DIRECT ancestor) was actually a carnivore.

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

Why don't we have any physical assets or skills (such as sharp teeth, claws, speed, stealth, etc) that would allows us to catch or kill prey without the artificial use of tools?

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What's all this 'without tools' nonsense? Our entire species evolved on a basis of tool use. Chimps kill monkeys by bashing them to death with their hands, but they've also been observed using spears, and beating them with sticks. Finches in the Galapagos use sticks to spear grubs and pull them out of holes in trees. Tool use in predation is perfectly natural.

As for our speed and stealth, you may not realize this, but humans are incredible athletes. Bushmen in Africa today STILL use a method of hunting called 'persistance hunting'. The hunters single out a large, horned animal and begin chasing it. They run after this animal, tracking it when it slips out of sight. They do not stop until the animal is exhausted. Often, the animal is already dying by the time they spear it. Its death from heat prostration is certain. This is what humans are capable of. We are not wimps. Stop thinking of the guy who sits at a computer desk all day, and start realizing that real humans are a force to be reckoned with in the wild.

We do not require sharp claws and teeth because we are superb tool-users.

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

And why is all of this meat causing us such severe health problems?

I guess that's another whole thread, though;)

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Because, in our infinite wisdom, we decided that animals evolved to live off of grass should instead be fed grain.
Another fact that isn't widely known is that 100% grass-fed beef is not bad for you at all. It is low in Omega 6 and high in Omega 3 fatty acids, and is actually good for you. It's really no worse than fish.

Humans require nutrients found almost exclusively in meat in order to stay healthy. Eating local foods, humans really cannot put together a meat-free diet that contains all they need. It certainly requires modern technology to do so, and even then, vegan diets are highly suspect, and people rarely do stay healthy on them indefinitely. Humans simply are not adapted to be herbivores.

Now, to clear up another side-note...
The pyramids were built by highly skilled and respected laborers that had their own quarters in the city nearby, and who were eating high quality food (including meat, which would never be given to slaves). The laborer's quarters were located some years ago, and evidence of their diet and lifestyle has shown the obvious:
It takes some pretty mean skills with stone working to actually build a pyramid, and no one has their most impressive monuments built by people who don't care about what they are doing.

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Please read what I was responding to. You and your opinion mean nothing to these people, and that's what I'm trying to say.

Please read some of your posts. You most definitely feel your opinion should matter in Spain.


Jim Smith

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None of my post suggest that Spain should change their lives to better suit my beliefs. I know my opinion means nothing to them, and that's fine.

There are also people who think my opinion on owning a ball python is crazy, and they don't care what I have to say. I'm still going to say it.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Now, to clear up another side-note...
The pyramids were built by highly skilled and respected laborers that had their own quarters in the city nearby, and who were eating high quality food (including meat, which would never be given to slaves). The laborer's quarters were located some years ago, and evidence of their diet and lifestyle has shown the obvious:
It takes some pretty mean skills with stone working to actually build a pyramid, and no one has their most impressive monuments built by people who don't care about what they are doing.

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:gj:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

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Like I said- an argument for another thread. If you were interested in starting one, I'd be happy to refute much of what you just said. I'm not really all that passionate about it since it's really all moot but pretty much pointless anyway, but I do disagree.

By the way, I am totally suggesting that Spain should alter its traditions to eliminate bullfighting because it is a bloodsport, and is an unnecessarily cruel practice.

I don't see any reason why I should not judge Spain for permitting it to continue. I do sincerely believe that Spain will eventually give up this tradition.

Spain has done some admirable things, as well. It had adopted the Great Ape Trust's suggestion of special rights for great apes into its laws. Great apes now enjoy legal protection as persons in Spain. These special rights include the right to life, freedom from torture, and freedom from unnecessary incarceration--the same basic rights afforded to humans under international law. This does not mean that Spain believes that apes are human, merely that their sentience is undeniable, and they should be afforded the same protection we would afford to our own as a result of that. Their intelligence level overlaps our own (within normal ranges for both species--a smart ape is brighter than Forrest Gump, even if it isn't going to build a space shuttle).

Where does one draw the line when it comes to such rights? Well...a being who can manufacture, conceal, and use a lock pick, steal a boat and use it to go fishing, or (entirely on its own without example to copy) create a spear to kill a monkey, seems like a reasonable place to set a line. This isn't Planet of the Apes--great apes are tremendously strong, and have little in the way of impulse control, so they will always pose a threat to humans if introduced face to face (they simply lose their temper easily, and tear your limbs off, not the best folks to sit down to a poker game with). But they whip our butts soundly when it comes to short term and spatial memory. Chimps are the first animals proven to exceed us fair and square at a MENTAL activity--one we created, no less.

So...the Spanish will give up bullfighting on their own, given a bit more time. At least, if they prefer not to be perceived as barbarians by the rest of the first world.

I have three hands on this issue.

On one hand, it's animal cruelty.

On another hand, it's cultural tradition.

On my last hand, it's not the government's place to ban bull fights.

For those keeping score, that's 2-1, in favor of being against the ban.

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

If humans were originally meant to eat meat why do we have the mouth, teeth, stomach acids, and intestines of a herbivore? Why don't we have any physical assets or skills (such as sharp teeth, claws, speed, stealth, etc) that would allows us to catch or kill prey without the artificial use of tools? And why is all of this meat causing us such severe health problems?

I guess that's another whole thread, though;)

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Ahem. Not true. Our teeth consist of both carnivores' canines and herbivores' molars. Our stomach and intestines are neither complex (herbivorous) or simple (carnivorous) making us omnivores. Because we evolved. And meat doesn't cause as many health problems as being vegetarian. My friend is anemic because of it.

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Originally Posted by abuja

Ahem. Not true. Our teeth consist of both carnivores' canines and herbivores' molars. Our stomach and intestines are neither complex (herbivorous) or simple (carnivorous) making us omnivores. Because we evolved. And meat doesn't cause as many health problems as being vegetarian. My friend is anemic because of it.

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I'm going to post my reply on the thread that was started for this discussion tomorrow and it addresses our teeth. I'll also address the issue of digestive tract. Not all herbivores have complex stomachs. Those are typical of ruminants like cows who eat rough vegetation. Clearly we did not evolve to eat grass:)

Also, vegetarianism is very healthy when done correctly. Many vegetarians do not eat a healthy veggie diet and can have problems because of it. When a vegetarian eats a wide array of foods, such as our ancestors would have been forced to do, they will receive sufficient amounts of dietary iron.

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

Also, vegetarianism is very healthy when done correctly. Many vegetarians do not eat a healthy veggie diet and can have problems because of it. When a vegetarian eats a wide array of foods, such as our ancestors would have been forced to do, they will receive sufficient amounts of dietary iron.

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I totally agree, but, even though I prefer not to make blanket statements, most vegetarians eat mostly carbohydrates, which, for the most part, didn't really exist thousands of years ago. If a vegetarian eats right, it can be a healthy diet, but we shouldn't have to try to eat healthy if it's the right diet for us.

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Originally Posted by abuja

I totally agree, but, even though I prefer not to make blanket statements, most vegetarians eat mostly carbohydrates, which, for the most part, didn't really exist thousands of years ago. If a vegetarian eats right, it can be a healthy diet, but we shouldn't have to try to eat healthy if it's the right diet for us.

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I know a few vegans and I will tell you that without suppliments, they are some of the most unhealthy people around. It can be done, but without technology, it's too difficult for most people.

But on the other hand, they are trying to do something fto improve their health, not like most McDonald's eating folks today.

Jim Smith