Terry Cullen raided

I think I found the charge/reason for removing the animals.

http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-100...,7900035.story

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One woman is now in custody facing charges of having endangered species without proper permits.

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it all sounds fishy like he was being set up. specially with the sex assualt part. i bet some one got wind of the warehouse (another hsus/peta ) person and arranged a fake report to havea search done .

I say 9/10 with the bifg reptile showes he at one of them and does not even know, or is out in the rural area were acell does not work..

Ooh lookie, I found him at a show. 6:20
YouTube - SnakeBytesTV "Reptiles Invade Chicago"

It angers me a lot to hear about this. More weight for congress to get our snakes banned.

But uh, the articles said they saw animals running loose, cages filled with filth, majority of the animals covered in moldextremely foul smell, etc. My question -Is the guy keeping them incorrectly, is this lady or whoever is living in the place keeping them badly without him knowing, or is the media blowing this way out of proportion?

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Originally Posted by bsd13

No. It's ok to remove the reptiles if they were being kept in poor conditions. I'm assuming experts have, for reasons as yet unannounced, decided that the conditions are poor. I don't get the impression that the police decided that the animals had to be removed, but rather people who know something about animals and husbandry. Even the zoo is involved. If anyone has an idea of what is and isn't suitable conditions for reptiles to live in it's the zoo.

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even the so called "experts" talk about "oh no...snakes in tubs" yada yada yada. Just because it is a zoo doesn't mean they are experts on all reptiles!!

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

even the so called "experts" talk about "oh no...snakes in tubs" yada yada yada. Just because it is a zoo doesn't mean they are experts on all reptiles!!

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I don't get the impression this has anything to do with snakes in tubs. Floors covered in feces and not licensed to have some of the animals that were there is quite a bit different if it turns out to be true.

Now that I see that video I remember that guy. That was the Oct show last year. With the way he was at the show I find it very hard to believe he was neglecting animals. I reached my hand out to touch the Chinese alligator right after a kid had touched it and Terry quickly backed out of reach. He wouldn't let anyone touch it unless they used hand sanitizer in front of him. He was very adamant about that alligator. The report said feces on the floor? I thought I only saw a part where it said rodents on the floor of one level of the building.

If the warehouse had an ounce of unsanitary conditions they would have been wearing hazmat outfits! This looks like a bad warrant setup to me. Whether its a good or bad warrant I hope Mr.Cullen sews there a's and wins for shooting the dogs.

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Now that I see that video I remember that guy. That was the Oct show last year. With the way he was at the show I find it very hard to believe he was neglecting animals. I reached my hand out to touch the Chinese alligator right after a kid had touched it and Terry quickly backed out of reach. He wouldn't let anyone touch it unless they used hand sanitizer in front of him. He was very adamant about that alligator. The report said feces on the floor? I thought I only saw a part where it said rodents on the floor of one level of the building.

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These are the news reports coming out. I can't speak to how he handled the alligator at the show. He wouldn't be the first animal caretaker that let things get out of control. It's not unheard of that someone goes from advocate to hoarder and then they can't keep up with things. Don't know if that's what has happened here, but it's possible.

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"It wasn't a real safe environment," said DNR Conservation Warden Myles Gervis. "The floor's slippery. There's animal waste all over the place."

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http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/93816569.html

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The first police officers to enter the building encountered a repulsive scene, according to a report summarizing Flint's arrest.

"There was an overpowering stench of ammonia consistent with urine and feces throughout the residence," the report says.

"Dead animal carcasses were in close proximity to live animals, and animal waste was observed throughout the residence."

Mold and fungus were growing "on a vast majority of the animals," according to the report.

Police and other officials found the animals inside the building while executing a search warrant Wednesday, the report says.

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http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/93800689.html

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Originally Posted by Vilenica

If the warehouse had an ounce of unsanitary conditions they would have been wearing hazmat outfits!

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Unsanitary doesn't automatically mean it rises to the level of requiring hazmat suits. It just means it's unacceptable or below standards for animals.

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This looks like a bad warrant setup to me. Whether its a good or bad warrant I hope Mr.Cullen sews there a's and wins for shooting the dogs.

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I doubt it's a bad warrant. I'm pretty confident that we'll find a judge issued it. A legally seated judge.

As far as the dogs. Sucks they died but nothing will come of it. It's standard op. when police are dealing with dogs in that kind of a situation. Happens everyday all over the country multiple times a day. No knocks, traffic stops, etc. We just don't hear about them.

well 2 poos on the floor and they tend to go overboard. Many ppl have lizards that they let run around ...especially in that setting. We have a local store here...they let their tegu go where he may. They also have their iguana that is loose in the store. They could defecate anywhere...and bam. As far as mice...if you breed them in large numbers chances are something could get loose.

Look I am not making excuses for anyone....however it is time and time again that the news blows things out of proportion. It is not beyond Peta to edit things or to set ppl up for failure. If it was an honest organization....with honest ppl working for them...I would never jump to these types of conclusions. But lets remember....Peta also funds an organization that blows up research labs. Proven in their financials!! The money went to the leaders father!!!! Is it really that much of a stretch that they set ppl up. And look at that report...is it really that much of a stretch that the news organization makes a bigger deal out of it and influences ppl that it was a terrible situation and a danger to the public.

All in all we are all at risk....little or big. All I need is one phone call and I bet I would not only have the HOA at my house and animal control and etc. I only have 7 reptiles and 2 large dogs.....and I am anal with keeping them....but walk in on any given day....though cleaned daily...and I bet you will find some poo in their enclosure. And anyone can say snakes kept in plastic tubs...egads. They untrained person would be agast.

I don't see how this could possibly be a peta setup if what the news is reporting is true.

In order for it to be a setup they would have had to found a willing dupe to falsely report a sexual assault and give the police enough information to help them convince a judge to issue a search warrant. They also would have had to get inside the building and trash it, thrown feces around, planted unlicensed animals in there, and "covered" the floor with dead rodents. Among whatever else has been found.

I don't know Terry Cullen, never met the guy and have only seen a few quotes attributed to him and a couple of video clips so my opinion of what is known is only based on the news reports concerning this particular issue. And as much as I can't stand peta I don't see how they would pull off what is alleged.

Eventually they'll find Terry Cullen and we'll get to hear his side of the story. I have an opinion on what he will say, but I don't see a need to put words in his mouth at this point. Regardless of what happens or has happened I think we all wish him and his reptiles well.

First, you'd be assuming the media has it's facts correct. That's a big assumption right there when the story involves reptiles.
Second, Peta only has to feed the media reports, they don't have to go trash the place and throw dead rodents around. They only have to twist things. The building was 2 or 3 stories high? "Rodents found on one floor of the building" gets turned to "rodents found on the floor in the building". Frozen feeder rodents in freezers, or thawed to be fed to animals sometime soon(and let's face it with a huge collection there's liable to be feeding going on most days) gets turned into "dead animals in proximinty to live ones."

It's all spin. How do you say it? What wording do you use? What can you imply, that later you can innocently shrug your shoulders and say "Well what I said was xx, they just took it wrong.."

Not that I'm saying peta DID that.. or that the media has all of it wrong... but we don't know, and it is possible for the wrong spin to make a normal situation out to be a horrible situation.

If the woman was keeping the endangered species illegally, could it be she was caring for animals that Cullen owns rightfully with licenses? Could be. Or she could have illegal animals she isn't licensed for. We don't know yet. Most likely the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I'm not assuming anything about the media. They could everything entirely wrong. Quite possible, perhaps even likely.

I am considering a few facts at this point however:

1) Even if this was a peta setup or spin of some kind the city of Milwaukee is spending thousands of man hours removing the collection, moving it, etc. They wouldn't be doing that without a good reason.

2) Terry Cullen still appears to be MIA. In today's world that's not easy to do. Seems a little suspicious to me.

3) The police have arrested and charged his partner, Ms. Flint, for with animal cruelty. There's probably a reason for that.

I don't know if what they allege rises to the level of neglect as the average reptile keeper would consider it. Like you pointed out, escaped food, rats lying out to thaw, etc happens. But it doesn't really matter what the average reptile keeper considers acceptable, it matters what the ordinances of the city of Milwaukee and the laws of the state of Wisconsin are regarding this particular issue.

All in all I do not believe for a minute that they would have started removing animals just for fun. There's a reason for it. There are reptile keepers and rescues all over the country and they don't get raided and their animals removed on a daily basis unless the circumstances require it.

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Originally Posted by bsd13

I'm not assuming anything about the media. They could everything entirely wrong. Quite possible, perhaps even likely.

I am considering a few facts at this point however:

1) Even if this was a peta setup or spin of some kind the city of Milwaukee is spending thousands of man hours removing the collection, moving it, etc. They wouldn't be doing that without a good reason.

2) Terry Cullen still appears to be MIA. In today's world that's not easy to do. Seems a little suspicious to me.

3) The police have arrested and charged his partner, Ms. Flint, for with animal cruelty. There's probably a reason for that.

I don't know if what they allege rises to the level of neglect as the average reptile keeper would consider it. Like you pointed out, escaped food, rats lying out to thaw, etc happens. But it doesn't really matter what the average reptile keeper considers acceptable, it matters what the ordinances of the city of Milwaukee and the laws of the state of Wisconsin are regarding this particular issue.

All in all I do not believe for a minute that they would have started removing animals just for fun. There's a reason for it. There are reptile keepers and rescues all over the country and they don't get raided and their animals removed on a daily basis unless the circumstances require it.

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Are you, by chance, a graduate of Rutgers?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Are you, by chance, a graduate of Rutgers?

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Nope. Why?

It is not far off to think peta would put someone in place to cry sexual assualt to get the ball rolling. Honestly......They fund ppl that blow up buildings!! This would be chump change in comparision in my opinion. Again I am not saying that is what is happening...but please don't think for one minute they have NOT done much much worse!!!

As far as man hours.....many think how we keep our snakes is wrong....inhumane even. Lets say they see the above stated issue...rats lying out thawing. That right there could warrent them to haul it all away coupled with a few poo's on the floor. Again...this is my opionion

Or, perhaps Cullen disappeared before this warrant was issued, and the woman involved was stuck caring for that huge collection by herself, and simply could not keep up with it all. It would be so easy to fall behind, and things could get pretty bad in a pretty short period of time without any help.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Or, perhaps Cullen disappeared before this warrant was issued, and the woman involved was stuck caring for that huge collection by herself, and simply could not keep up with it all. It would be so easy to fall behind, and things could get pretty bad in a pretty short period of time without any help.

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Bad enough that the building would be condemned?

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/93861754.html

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Cullen owns the warehouse at 2323 S. 13th Street, where it took two days to remove some 250 creatures. The building is now boarded up and condemned due to the amount of animal waste inside.

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You know what....I have this weird feeling.

My friend just told me he was going up to Wisconsin today to get some "free reptiles". Albino ball python, green tree python. I said no one who bought those animals would willingly give them away for FREE....But now I am leaning toward thinking that the animals he is getting are from the raid of Terrys place.

hmm

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

You know what....I have this weird feeling.

My friend just told me he was going up to Wisconsin today to get some "free reptiles". Albino ball python, green tree python. I said no one who bought those animals would willingly give them away for FREE....But now I am leaning toward thinking that the animals he is getting are from the raid of Terrys place.

hmm

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They can not legaly give away anything UNLESS they go thru the courts and are awarded them.Then IF they really care about them they will screen the adoptees and only after each reptile is cleared as being healthy they can adopt them out.They could not have done this process in 3 days.They also have to have Terry in court to give his side.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

They can not legaly give away anything UNLESS they go thru the courts and are awarded them.Then IF they really care about them they will screen the adoptees and only after each reptile is cleared as being healthy they can adopt them out.They could not have done this process in 3 days.They also have to have Terry in court to give his side.

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Just speculation :P He is going to Milwaukee today to get some "free reptiles". Milwaukee is where this "raid" just took place. I guess I will ask him when he comes back.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Just speculation :P He is going to Milwaukee today to get some "free reptiles". Milwaukee is where this "raid" just took place. I guess I will ask him when he comes back.

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Oh i figured that but was just putting the info out there :gj:

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Originally Posted by bsd13

Bad enough that the building would be condemned?

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/93861754.html

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With that many animals? I'd give it one month, maybe two months, tops, and it could most certainly get into that condition.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

They can not legaly give away anything UNLESS they go thru the courts and are awarded them.Then IF they really care about them they will screen the adoptees and only after each reptile is cleared as being healthy they can adopt them out.They could not have done this process in 3 days.They also have to have Terry in court to give his side.

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Just because they can't doesn't mean they won't. One of the recent pit bull raids they put the guy's dogs down within 24 hours of the raid and he was found innocent. Other people have had dogs disappear completely or die in care of the "authorities". I would be curious where the animals are going since very few places are equipped or knowledgable to take reptiles.

There's a guy who had the HSUS come in and confiscate his 172(I think) dogs, even though the HSUS rep said on record the dogs didn't look bad, and the official inspector had been there TWO DAYS before and said everything was fine. The judge has since ruled that the dogs were taken illegally, but something like 34 dogs have died while in the care of a rescue(of PARVO!!!! What rescue doesn't take precautions against parvo??).

So it does indeed happen. Especially when any AR groups get involved, either in presenting evidence or making accusations to actually showing up and taking animals illegally.

I would like to know where Terry is :confused:

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Originally Posted by joepythons

I would like to know where Terry is :confused:

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So would the cops and everyone else.

If you watch the video where they're removing the animals, notice that the buildings are attached. There is a building on either side of Terry's "warehouse".

If there were mice running loose and the stench of ammonia and feces was so great, then why didn't ANY of those neighbors complain of 1) finding white/spotted, etc. mice running loose, and 2) of the smell. They even interview the alderman who says he was just in one of the adjoining buildings recently and didn't know the animals were there. That tells me the smell couldn't have been anywhere near what they're reporting.

Click Here and then click WATCH THE VIDEO below the picture

You know this whole "raid" sounds like a bunch of crap in my opinion.No judge is going to sign a warrant to raid someones storage building looking for a sexual assualt suspect.They have noted several times Terry is well known and has assisted them numerous times.So why are they taking his reptiles? I am sure he has EVERY permit needed.I think everyone needs to back off and wait until we hear from Terry :gj:

Well the warrant was for the home and personal property. That also granted them the right into the "warehouse".

This isn't looking so good.. They are rubbing it in real good..

"Police raided what is believed to be 60-year-old Terry Cullen's residence on Monday and emerged carrying a frozen alligator.

They also found a dead snake carcass, but no live animals.

Neighbor Jim Sinicki watched police search the home and took pictures.

"There's no telling what he had in there before the police came by," Sinicki said. "I just want to know some answers, like why is he doing this."

Meanwhile, a warehouse used by Cullen is now boarded up and condemned by the city.

Last week authorities removed some 250 exotic animals from the property and another 60 creatures from his girlfriend's home.

Five giant anacondas were among the animals seized.

Alderman Jim Witkowiak, who represents the near south side, is calling for Cullen to come forward.

"A lot of the reptiles in here were basically neglected," Witkowiak said. "I just wish he would come forth and cooperate with the police."

On a YouTube video, Cullen urges people to call him with donations for his reptile rescue fund.

He answered that phone last week and told police he was in Connecticut, but has yet to turn himself in.

An attorney who has represented Cullen said he had "no comment" when reached by a reporter Monday.

Police began looking at the addresses as part of a sexual assault complaint, but have not named the target of that investigation.


NBC"

http://www.ksdk.com/news/national/st...storyid=202327

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Originally Posted by joepythons

They can not legaly give away anything UNLESS they go thru the courts and are awarded them.Then IF they really care about them they will screen the adoptees and only after each reptile is cleared as being healthy they can adopt them out.They could not have done this process in 3 days.They also have to have Terry in court to give his side.

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Yes they can. I read this in one of the articles. 'Cullen likely violated Milwaukee city ordinances that make it illegal to house non-domesticated or dangerous animals.' If that's the case, they can confiscate his animals and do whatever they wish with them whether he's guilty of anything else or not.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

You know this whole "raid" sounds like a bunch of crap in my opinion.No judge is going to sign a warrant to raid someones storage building looking for a sexual assualt suspect.They have noted several times Terry is well known and has assisted them numerous times.So why are they taking his reptiles? I am sure he has EVERY permit needed.I think everyone needs to back off and wait until we hear from Terry :gj:

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I'm willing to bet a judge will sign a warrant to go anywhere that a sexual assault suspect is believed to be, including a warehouse.

Being well known, even highly regarded and respected doesn't somehow give anyone a free pass to break the law. I don't care if he fed 100 homeless children a night he's still accountable for whatever his actions might be.

If he had every permit needed part of the charges wouldn't be that he has animals he doesn't have permits to keep.

They are taking his reptiles because they were neglected, and he didn't have permits for a number of them. Nothing more, nothing less.

We'd all love to hear from Terry Cullen. Funny thing is he's not shown his face. And by now he has no excuse and no one can say "Maybe he doesn't know about it"

Lil Update in the case, Cullen Finally in Wisconsin

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Here's the entire statement from Terry Cullen:"I have been trying to deal with this Machiavellian nightmare while out of town and gravely ill. Far from "being on the run" I have been back in town with my attorneys for the past two days engaged in the appropriate, necessary legal formalities. I am overwhelmingly concerned for the well being of our animals; the terrible stresses that they have been subjected to and their transport to utterly unfamiliar surroundings. My heart truly breaks at the very thought of the loss of my best friends and loyal companions, Pogo and Kong, our two dogs. You have no concept of our pain at their loss. While the much of the media has vilified and excoriated me with inaccuracies, half-truths and shameful sensationalism, the truth lies far, far from their irresponsible, knee-jerk rantings. Jane and I have devoted our all to conservation. Our shattered lives and reputations have been our reward." Terry Cullen

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http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-100...,6450177.story

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Originally Posted by bsd13

They are taking his reptiles because they were neglected, and he didn't have permits for a number of them. Nothing more, nothing less.

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I must have missed it. It sounds as if you are stating a well known and verified fact.

Could you show me this verification you seem so confident in?

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by bsd13

I'm willing to bet a judge will sign a warrant to go anywhere that a sexual assault suspect is believed to be, including a warehouse.

Being well known, even highly regarded and respected doesn't somehow give anyone a free pass to break the law. I don't care if he fed 100 homeless children a night he's still accountable for whatever his actions might be.

If he had every permit needed part of the charges wouldn't be that he has animals he doesn't have permits to keep.

They are taking his reptiles because they were neglected, and he didn't have permits for a number of them. Nothing more, nothing less.

We'd all love to hear from Terry Cullen. Funny thing is he's not shown his face. And by now he has no excuse and no one can say "Maybe he doesn't know about it"

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How do you know whether or not he has the proper permits? Are you going by what the media is saying? Until i see the proof that he has neglected ANY reptiles i will still be on Terrys side.Today my friend Eric (green farmer here) and myself were talking about this.We both think this is PETA and those others that are trying to cease our hobby stunt.Who are they going to raid next with some hogwash excuse? NERD,Outback or another big name in our industry just to give us more bad reps :mad:.So before you burn Terry at the stake why not wait until we find out the WHOLE story not just the medias crap ;)

It's already occurred to me that the only practical way to have rodents running ALL over such a place is to knock over a rat rack, and let them out.

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Originally Posted by bsd13

I don't get the impression this has anything to do with snakes in tubs. Floors covered in feces and not licensed to have some of the animals that were there is quite a bit different if it turns out to be true.

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This.

The building ended up being condemned, there is a lot going on in this story. I think that sometimes people are too trusting of individuals with similar interests.

Think about it, as much as a lot of people dislike Big Daddy Whole Sales, and talk about how "filthy" his facility is, he hasn't been raided...

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

It's already occurred to me that the only practical way to have rodents running ALL over such a place is to knock over a rat rack, and let them out.

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Rodent's Escape, ask anyone who breeds them, it happens. However if the rodents are not taken care of properly they're more likely to attempt to escape and will find a food source and breed outside of their controlled environment.

I'm neutral in this because I have no real interest in this story but I think people should keep an open mind about this. Here are some more links related to this that were posted on Kingsnake:

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/93861264.html

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/93861754.html

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/93923674.html

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

It's already occurred to me that the only practical way to have rodents running ALL over such a place is to knock over a rat rack, and let them out.

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Thank you! I bet the dead ones are being thawed out to feed the reptiles to

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I must have missed it. It sounds as if you are stating a well known and verified fact.

Could you show me this verification you seem so confident in?

Thank you.

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I think "mistreating" and "neglected" can safely be considered synonymous terms in this instance.

So here's a fact. Jane Flint was arrested for "suspicion of mistreating animals and violating regulations regarding endangered or threatened species". This is according to an official document. An arrest report. Not a document made up by peta or the HSUS but an honest to God document created by an officer of the law. And before someone starts talking about police corruption, don't bother. There's too many agencies involved for it to be the police trying to set someone up.

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Jane E. Flint, who told police she lived in the building at 2323 S. 13th St., was arrested Wednesday and is in custody at the Milwaukee County Jail. She is being held on suspicion of mistreating animals and violating regulations regarding endangered or threatened species, according to the arrest report.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/93800689.html

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This next part speaks for itself. Cullen himself claimed not to need a permit for exotics due to a consulting arrangement. The director of the Wisconsin Humane Society says some of the animals might have been covered, but not all of them.

If he claims not to need a permit chances are pretty good he doesn't have one. Time will tell to what extent the animals he kept were or were not covered under the consulting agreement. It will also tell if maybe he misunderstood the extent that the animals were covered under the agreement.

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Cullen told investigators he doesn't need a permit for the exotic animals because of his consulting agreement with the Wisconsin Humane Society.

A limited number of Cullen's animals may have been covered by the humane society's licenses, but certainly not all of them, according to Executive Director Anne Reed. She said she is "surprised and concerned" about what authorities found at Cullen's properties.
http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/93861264.html

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I'm all for giving someone the benefit of the doubt and I understand the desire to circle the wagons to protect one of our own, but it seems like the evidence we have access to is mounting against the guy. No doubt we all look forward to hearing his side of the story, but in a nutshell this is what we have so far -

1) Police served a search warrant and found the place in shambles. I know there's been several comments about how the search warrant is probably illegitimate, but those accusations have no basis on anything solid that I've come across. They appear to be based on emotion and a dislike of peta/hsus in general. Some have even suggested that peta somehow setup Terry Cullen to make him look bad because they don't like people having pets. Which leads me to my next point...

2) The building has been condemned. If a health inspection condemned the building this quickly that a pretty good bet something is really amiss.

A few people have said that the conditions could get bad in very short order with that many animals and too little help. Sure they could get bad, but condemnation indicates a public health hazard. A few piles of snake poops and dead rats don't equate to condemnation. Something had to be going on over the long term.

The question is how long has peta had an inside person going behind Terry Cullen, and Jane Flint spreading poop and the corpses of dead rodents around to the point where the building needs to be condemned?

3) They've removed somewhere between 250 and 300 animals and no reports indicate they were well cared for. Not from the zoo representatives, the police officers, the city workers, the neighbors, or even the humane society. Unless everyone involved is out to get Terry Cullen I'd expect there to be some kind of positive spin on this whole situation in his favor by someone. But I've not heard it, have you?

4) Terry Cullen has himself said he doesn't need permits for the animals. Which is a pretty good indication he doesn't have them. If you claim not to need it you probably won't bother going through the time and expenses to acquire it.

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Originally Posted by LoboGfx

Lil Update in the case, Cullen Finally in Wisconsin



http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-100...,6450177.story

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Good to hear he's facing the problem. Despite what some might think I hope this all turns out to be a big misunderstanding.

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Originally Posted by bsd13

I think "mistreating" and "neglected" can safely be considered synonymous terms in this instance.

So here's a fact. Jane Flint was arrested for "suspicion of mistreating animals and violating regulations regarding endangered or threatened species". This is according to an official document. An arrest report. Not a document made up by peta or the HSUS but an honest to God document created by an officer of the law. And before someone starts talking about police corruption, don't bother. There's too many agencies involved for it to be the police trying to set someone up.



This next part speaks for itself. Cullen himself claimed not to need a permit for exotics due to a consulting arrangement. The director of the Wisconsin Humane Society says some of the animals might have been covered, but not all of them.

If he claims not to need a permit chances are pretty good he doesn't have one. Time will tell to what extent the animals he kept were or were not covered under the consulting agreement. It will also tell if maybe he misunderstood the extent that the animals were covered under the agreement.



I'm all for giving someone the benefit of the doubt and I understand the desire to circle the wagons to protect one of our own, but it seems like the evidence we have access to is mounting against the guy. No doubt we all look forward to hearing his side of the story, but in a nutshell this is what we have so far -

1) Police served a search warrant and found the place in shambles. I know there's been several comments about how the search warrant is probably illegitimate, but those accusations have no basis on anything solid that I've come across. They appear to be based on emotion and a dislike of peta/hsus in general. Some have even suggested that peta somehow setup Terry Cullen to make him look bad because they don't like people having pets. Which leads me to my next point...

2) The building has been condemned. If a health inspection condemned the building this quickly that a pretty good bet something is really amiss.

A few people have said that the conditions could get bad in very short order with that many animals and too little help. Sure they could get bad, but condemnation indicates a public health hazard. A few piles of snake poops and dead rats don't equate to condemnation. Something had to be going on over the long term.

The question is how long has peta had an inside person going behind Terry Cullen, and Jane Flint spreading poop and the corpses of dead rodents around to the point where the building needs to be condemned?

3) They've removed somewhere between 250 and 300 animals and no reports indicate they were well cared for. Not from the zoo representatives, the police officers, the city workers, the neighbors, or even the humane society. Unless everyone involved is out to get Terry Cullen I'd expect there to be some kind of positive spin on this whole situation in his favor by someone. But I've not heard it, have you?

4) Terry Cullen has himself said he doesn't need permits for the animals. Which is a pretty good indication he doesn't have them. If you claim not to need it you probably won't bother going through the time and expenses to acquire it.

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And this is the ONLY possible scenario?

Rather one dimensional, neh?

You see, without knowing, which you don't, all these statements as facts in evidence are..... not facts at all but guesses that you have made based on what you believe without being there, without talking to anyone involved, without any experience with large numbers of exotics but an over abundance of if the guys in charge say it's so then it must be so itis.

I don't have a problem prepping my rope prior to a hanging but I find it rather premature to have the gallows up and the noose hanging before we even know what's really going on.

I'm surprised you don't feel the same way.

"Suspician of neglect" is not "neglect".

If he was told by an agency that he didn't need permits, then the agency is going to say "well SOME are covered by that.. but not all" then the agency sounds like they are backing out of a previous arrangement.

Again, nothing has said that the animals looked neglected in any of the things we've seen, and since the media seemed disturbed that some animals were housed in plastic bins and water troughs, which WE know are appropriate enclosures, I wouldn't expect for the MEDIA to get anything right.

And the police still haven't said who the person was that they were supposed to be searching for in the first place is. Is it Terry and they just won't say because they are hoping he'll come in if he isn't certain it's him? Or was it some employee and some other people jumped the gun because they saw animals housed in what experianced people KNOW is a proper manner?

Why is the building condemned? And if it's that bad, why isn't there more about the issues of the building? There's no way that dead animals and feces and such could be so bad that the whole building has to be condemned and the neighbors had no idea anything was being housed there. We have a local lady with 15 cats in her house, and you can smell it from the street. And her house isn't condemned.

IF he is guilty of some sexual crime, IF he neglected the animals, or left them in inadequate care to be neglected, IF he did not have permits and was NOT told that he did not need them, IF IF IF..

If he was housing the animals in an area that he was not allowed to do so accordingt o zoming, then yes, they coudl remove them, but the more normal way they do these things is to issue a warning and say "You have to get rid of these animals by XX date". Not wholesale snatching them up and taking off with them.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

And this is the ONLY possible scenario?

Rather one dimensional, neh?

You see, without knowing, which you don't, all these statements as facts in evidence are..... not facts at all but guesses that you have made based on what you believe without being there, without talking to anyone involved, without any experience with large numbers of exotics but an over abundance of if the guys in charge say it's so then it must be so itis.

I don't have a problem prepping my rope prior to a hanging but I find it rather premature to have the gallows up and the noose hanging before we even know what's really going on.

I'm surprised you don't feel the same way.

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First off I'm not interested in hanging Terry Cullen any more than you are. I am interested in him being punished IF these accusations are correct. And punished without regard to who he is and/or what he might have done in the "reptile world"

Having said that I don't believe anything is a conspiracy to set Cullen up. The police executed a search warrant totally unrelated to the welfare of these animals, but they found what they found. I'm not in the habit of accusing the police of lying and being part of some kind of a cover up involving a bunch of city agencies, at least one zoo and the Wisconsin humane society that is out to get Terry Cullen.

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Originally Posted by bsd13

I'm not in the habit of accusing

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Ahhh, my mistake then.

What DO you call what you've been assuring us must be what has happened and why it happened as you have assured us it has?

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

"Suspician of neglect" is not "neglect".

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Granted but they wouldn't have arrested her for no reason.

Opinion: The police don't really know what is considered neglect in regards to reptiles so they arrested her while the investigate and find out.

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If he was told by an agency that he didn't need permits, then the agency is going to say "well SOME are covered by that.. but not all" then the agency sounds like they are backing out of a previous arrangement.

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Or he took a great amount of liberty with the agreement, far beyond what was intended when it was made.

Quote:

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Again, nothing has said that the animals looked neglected in any of the things we've seen, and since the media seemed disturbed that some animals were housed in plastic bins and water troughs, which WE know are appropriate enclosures, I wouldn't expect for the MEDIA to get anything right.

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Well there is this:

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http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/93704999.html
The decomposed bodies of several animals were found in the building, Berg said. Among the living animals, some were in "subpar condition," but most should be able to make a full recovery, Christie said.

The inside of the brick building was a cluttered mess of animal cages and tanks, according to police officers, firefighters and others who had been inside.

Many reptiles were kept in horse troughs filled with foul water, Berg said.

Police officers spotted a 4-foot crocodile loose in the building when they entered, said Richard Kaiser, chief of the Milwaukee Fire Department's fourth battalion.

"I have not seen this many animals or the conditions we encountered in my career, and I've been here 25 years," said Kaiser, who said the inside of the building reeked.

*Christie is Jay Christie president and ceo of the Racine zoo
* Berg is Craig Berg curator of reptiles and aquarium at the Milwaukee County Zoo
*Kaiser is Richard Kaiser, chief of the Milwaukee Fire Department's fourth battalion

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And the police still haven't said who the person was that they were supposed to be searching for in the first place is. Is it Terry and they just won't say because they are hoping he'll come in if he isn't certain it's him? Or was it some employee and some other people jumped the gun because they
saw animals housed in what experianced people KNOW is a proper manner?

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The warrant search is mutually exclusive from the animals. One has no bearing on another. If the police kick in a persons door with a warrant searching for a missing child even if they find no child, or even evidence of a missing child the meth lab in the basement is going to get them in trouble regardless.

It's also an active warrant at this point as far we know. So why would they announce to the world the man or woman they hunting? That doesn't even make sense.

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Why is the building condemned? And if it's that bad, why isn't there more about the issues of the building? There's no way that dead animals and feces and such could be so bad that the whole building has to be condemned and the neighbors had no idea anything was being housed there. We have a local lady with 15 cats in her house, and you can smell it from the street. And her house isn't condemned.

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You'll have to ask the inspectors why they don't condemn your neighbors house. Have you called and asked them to go take a look at it or otherwise reported her? Do they know about the problem?

As for Terry Cullen's building, it was condemned because someone with a lot more knowledge than myself (and probably you) when it comes to these kind of things made an educated determination that it needed to be condemned.

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IF he is guilty of some sexual crime, IF he neglected the animals, or left them in inadequate care to be neglected, IF he did not have permits and was NOT told that he did not need them, IF IF IF..

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Indeed if.

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If he was housing the animals in an area that he was not allowed to do so accordingt o zoming, then yes, they coudl remove them, but the more normal way they do these things is to issue a warning and say "You have to get rid of these animals by XX date". Not wholesale snatching them up and taking off with them.

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Every city and state works differently. I'm going to assume that they are following the procedures set for the city of Milwaukee

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Ahhh, my mistake then.

What DO you call what you've been assuring us must be what has happened and why it happened as you have assured us it has?

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Don't misquote people. It makes it look like they said something they didn't. What I said was: I'm not in the habit of accusing the police of lying and being part of some kind of a cover up involving a bunch of city agencies, at least one zoo and the Wisconsin humane society that is out to get Terry Cullen.

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Originally Posted by bsd13

Don't misquote people. It makes it look like they said something they didn't. What I said was: I'm not in the habit of accusing the police of lying and being part of some kind of a cover up involving a bunch of city agencies, at least one zoo and the Wisconsin humane society that is out to get Terry Cullen.

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And what I heard was, "I'm not in the habit of questioning those in authority. In fact, I will agree to follow their lead even if there is no proof to substantiate any claims at the time I make them simply because they have said it is so, which must be true so I will tell you it's true because I think it is so it must be."

Heh, not at all alike.

The fault must be mine though, no doubt of that.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

And what I heard was, "I'm not in the habit of questioning those in authority. In fact, I will agree to follow their lead even if there is no proof to substantiate any claims at the time I make them simply because they have said it is so, which must be true so I will tell you it's true because I think it is so it must be."

Heh, not at all alike.

The fault must be mine though, no doubt of that.

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Then you need to get your hearing checked if that's what you heard. There's a time and a place to question "authority". There are reasons to question how they've conducted themselves. Case in point: http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/05/18/...ex.html?hpt=T2

There's no indication anywhere that they did anything wrong in this case. Nothing at all. So why would I question them in this case? Do you have a reason aside from they are the authorities and we just shouldn't ever trust the authorities?

You're the one questioning their integrity. I'm not.

What facts do you have to show anyone that they have somehow mishandled this incident, or lied, or obfuscated anything in regards to it?

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Here's the entire statement from Terry Cullen:

"I have been trying to deal with this Machiavellian nightmare while out of town and gravely ill. Far from "being on the run" I have been back in town with my attorneys for the past two days engaged in the appropriate, necessary legal formalities. I am overwhelmingly concerned for the well being of our animals; the terrible stresses that they have been subjected to and their transport to utterly unfamiliar surroundings. My heart truly breaks at the very thought of the loss of my best friends and loyal companions, Pogo and Kong, our two dogs. You have no concept of our pain at their loss. While the much of the media has vilified and excoriated me with inaccuracies, half-truths and shameful sensationalism, the truth lies far, far from their irresponsible, knee-jerk rantings. Jane and I have devoted our all to conservation. Our shattered lives and reputations have been our reward."
Terry Cullen

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