Selling You Snake Short

The OP. He has a "red dot" under his name and I thought that was an infraction from this but nvm if its not.

@ Reptis
It hasn't gotten bad yet but I have a feeling this thread will get ugly.

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Originally Posted by thegoalie22

The OP. He has a "red dot" under his name and I thought that was an infraction from this but nvm if its not.

@ Reptis
It hasn't gotten bad yet but I have a feeling this thread will get ugly.

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No - you either have green or red (or gray).

Green means that your reputation points are in the positive (reputation points users have left you)

Gray means you your reputation points are neutral

Red means that other users have neg rep'd you into the negative.

If you hover over green dots on all users, you see their reputation "status".

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I don't think soul is relevant, to be honest. It has nothing to do with emotions or 'feeling'. Those things occur in the brain.

I do, however, think some people sell snakes short.

They have been researched scientifically, and we can see what they are capable of from their behavior and from their brain structure.

Snakes are most certainly capable of emotions. They are not, however, capable of 'higher emotions'--the more complex emotions displayed by birds and mammals. Snakes are capable of fear, curiousity/interest, contentment/happiness, unhappiness, and anger. There's no question about it--they have the mental equipment for it, they display the behaviors associated with it--it's there.
Animals known to have emotional centers in their brains, and to display behavioral evidence of emotion: Cephalopods, fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals.
Cephalopods and some lizards 'wear their heart on their sleeve' with complex color and pattern changes corresponding to their moods, as well as other stimuli.

As for snakes' reasoning abilities--it really depends on the species. Our ball pythons are not geniuses. They really aren't very bright animals. They don't have to be, in order to be successful. Other snake species aren't quite so dim--garter and rat snakes, for example. The obvious genius among snakes is the King Cobra.
To judge intelligence, look at the animal's behavior, and what it needs to do in the wild in order to survive. Ball pythons spend most of their time hiding, and are primarily ambush predators--they wait for prey to come across their path. Snakes that are more active hunters need to be smarter, both to locate their prey, and to avoid predators as they wander.

It should be noted that, in general, snakes are the least intelligent group of reptiles. Tuatara, lizards, turtles, and crocodilians all show much higher levels intelligence much more consistently than snakes do. Still, the intelligence of animals in general is something that has been continuously underestimated since scientific research of animals first began. We are continually revising our knowledge of their mental capabilities upward.

So in that respect, I have to agree--don't sell them short. Watch and see, and you will probably be surprised some day.

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Ditto.

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Originally Posted by Tochigi_R

It's fair to believe that snakes don't feel, because that's the way things are. When I first got into snakes, it was hard for me to accept after years of owning parrots and cats and dogs (oh my! :P), because they all get so attached to you and you to them. Believe me, once you accept the fact that your snakes are basically on "auto pilot" it becomes a whole lot easier to understand and respect their needs.

It has been proven that snakes do not have the intellectual capacity to experience emotions as we do. Their limbic system - the part of the brain that registers emotions - is very, very basic. I'm sure that they have felt fear, and more of the baser emotions that stem from instinct, but if you are implying that snakes are capable of love, joy, sorrow, or anger then you are unfortunately wrong. As much as I'm sure we'd all like our snakes to love us as our dogs do, the fact is they don't nor will they ever... unless another 80 million years of evolution decides to change that. Some people will say that one snake or another has it's own personality. They either have a really grouchy snake, a shy one, or a really calm tempered little guy, but those observations are all just differing levels of aggression, indifference, or fear - something that is instinctual, not emotional. As far as the indifference goes, the snake doesn't see you as a threat and is just putting up with you.

Actually, the more I think about it, I would rather my snakes' emotional capacity stay the way it is. I have a feeling that if bp's or any other snake acted any other way, the appeal of them would not be the same. I like the indifferent attitude they display. :) I feel like if they did display emotions as other animals do, it'd be the same as owning the reptilian version of a cat. :P

As far as souls go, I'm afraid to touch the topic. Spiritual topics tend to get very touchy, and I'd be afraid to say something that would bite me in the bottom later... :weirdface :P

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Ditto.

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Originally Posted by sarahlovesmiike

In my opinion you have no right to judge people who don't have the same beliefs as you. You have no right to come on here and tell everyone that their beliefs are ignorant, because we KNOW that this has stemmed from your very IGNORANT posts about people who house their snakes in tubs.

Your snake ISN'T in its optimum environment. You've had bad sheds, and feeding refusals. Betcha if your snake felt better about it's enclosure you wouldn't have these problems. MY snakes on the other hand, have perfect sheds and never miss a meal. So please, just let this ridiculousness go.


AND AGAIN, it's about what works best for the individual snake, and the snake DOESN'T care about have pretty things to look at or realistic looking hides. They want a warm dark humid place to hide, fresh water, and a meal when they're hungry. None of this has anything to do with having a soul.

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And ditto again.



As for souls. I'm an atheist so no, I do not believe my snakes have spirits/souls. Nor do I believe that any of my other pets, family members, friends or neighbors have souls. That doesn't mean I think any less of them. I love my friends and family and my snake collection and reef tank is my primary focus when I have free time nowadays. I love my snakes and reefs but that doesn't mean I'm going to start cuddling corals so that they feel better about themselves.

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Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

I love my snakes and reefs but that doesn't mean I'm going to start cuddling corals so that they feel better about themselves.

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Oh cmon meaner!!! :rofl:

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

Oh cmon meaner!!! :rofl:

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lol I got a love "bite" from one of my corals once. I think I'll let them cuddle each other. You can never be sure just how toxic some of those guys are. I'll play it safe. If they grow to resent me, so be it. ;)

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Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

lol I got a love "bite" from one of my corals once. I think I'll let them cuddle each other. You can never be sure just how toxic some of those guys are. I'll play it safe. If they grow to resent me, so be it. ;)

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:O:O Wow....off topic....but what happened to you?

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Originally Posted by Fish

Arisnoe-

You brag about handling your snake 2 hours a day. It doesn't enjoy or look forward to being handled. It doesn't "love" you.. It just views you as the one who picks you up.. honestly it would be fine if you never handled it.

You also brag about keeping it in a tank because you are "doing what's best for it" giving it a "proper home".. c'mon. If you really cared about your snake you would keep it in an enclosure where you could easily control temps and humidity.

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Shes banned so you cant talk to her lol

I know she's banned and can't see this, but I'm a very spiritual person and am quite offended with her approach to 'forcing' her beliefs on others. I would never force my naturalistic/scientific/spiritual beliefs on anybody, no matter how strongly I disagreed with someone.

Science is all theory, but most theory is highly supported with experimental data, that's different.
Belief in souls is something I BELIEVE in. It is an untestable hypothesis at the moment, not a theory. It has no evidence backing it up, it is purely an opinion.

SO for her to say:

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Is that fair to believe that?

In my opinion that kind of belief is just as ignorant and destructive as those who believe snakes are evil and devils and such.

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Beliefs are not ignorant. They are opinions, and you are forcing YOUR beliefs on people!!! And GOSH DARN IT it bugs me!
You and people who act like you are the reason why people look so badly at our related religion. UGH. :rage:

wow she was banned?? What happened....I mean her stuff was ridiculous...and annoying I might add.....but what happened for her to get banned?

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

wow she was banned?? What happened....I mean her stuff was ridiculous...and annoying I might add.....but what happened for her to get banned?

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She made a fake person to post under, that reptis person? That was her.

I'm just glaaaad it's over. :rage:

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

wow she was banned?? What happened....I mean her stuff was ridiculous...and annoying I might add.....but what happened for her to get banned?

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She had multiple infractions already, then she made a second trolling account to support her threads and opinions as if it were another person chiming in.

She broke multiple rules from the ToS.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

She had multiple infractions already, then she made a second trolling account to support her threads and opinions as if it were another person chiming in.

She broke multiple rules from the ToS.

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Nice!! Ugh...some ppl have far too much time on their hands!!:cool:

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

Nice!! Ugh...some ppl have far too much time on their hands!!:cool:

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Yes they do.. :gj:

i wondered about the second account, but yea, to much time, guess i saw the future in her Q-room post. oh well, at least my snakes are still surviving in tupperware

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

:O:O Wow....off topic....but what happened to you?

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I was cleaning a tank and absentmindedly brushed my hand against a rock anemone. Didn't feel anything at the time, but a day later my hand was tingly and hurt. Day after that it was red and itchy. It took at least a week for the rash to go away and things to feel back to normal.

I also learned about a year ago about palytoxins. Palythoas and zoanthids are one of the most common pieces you'll find in reef tanks (IMO) just because they're beautiful and not terribly expensive. They secrete palytoxins when they're stressed or injured and this is apparently one of the most toxic organic substances known! I read through a thread on Reef Central a while back that detailed sickness in some people exposed to the toxin (through cuts or scrapes on your hand) and a story about a dog who died after eating some zoanthids.

Needless to say, I've learned my lesson and latex gloves are a good thing.


[/OFF TOPIC] :oops:

Humans are animals. If we have souls, they all do. Why would one sp have them and all the 1000s of others not?

That being said, I don't believe anyone has a soul. We die, its blackness, deal with it, get over it.

YouTube - Rim D. Paul - All God's Children Got Soul (1969)

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Originally Posted by EvesFriend

just like humans, snakes have no soul. that is a biased man made subjective delusion. snakes are also not self aware.

science is the measurable. the supernatural is a delusion based on biases and fallible, feeble human mind.

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you're spot on and as for op what about plants they live grow consume nutrients do they have a soul?:confused:

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Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

I was cleaning a tank and absentmindedly brushed my hand against a rock anemone. Didn't feel anything at the time, but a day later my hand was tingly and hurt. Day after that it was red and itchy. It took at least a week for the rash to go away and things to feel back to normal.

I also learned about a year ago about palytoxins. Palythoas and zoanthids are one of the most common pieces you'll find in reef tanks (IMO) just because they're beautiful and not terribly expensive. They secrete palytoxins when they're stressed or injured and this is apparently one of the most toxic organic substances known! I read through a thread on Reef Central a while back that detailed sickness in some people exposed to the toxin (through cuts or scrapes on your hand) and a story about a dog who died after eating some zoanthids.

Needless to say, I've learned my lesson and latex gloves are a good thing.


[/OFF TOPIC] :oops:

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wow that is crazy!!

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Originally Posted by DarkSean

Humans are animals. If we have souls, they all do. Why would one sp have them and all the 1000s of others not?

That being said, I don't believe anyone has a soul. We die, its blackness, deal with it, get over it.

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In my eyes, you're just as offensive as the OP because you're trying to force your beliefs on anyone who disagrees with you.

That goes to anyone who's continuing to state that animals do or do not have souls as if it were fact!
Also, if you knew much of anything about science at all, you would know that nothing is ever proven in science. You'll never hear a true scientist say they have 'proven' something. Everything is made of hypotheses, which can then form theories with large amounts of supporting evidence.

You can't prove that, and I can't prove that we have a soul. No one can even make a theory out of either. BOTH are opinions, but learn to respect others' opinions if you want yours to be respected at all.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Science is all theory, but most theory is highly supported with experimental data, that's different.
Belief in souls is something I BELIEVE in. It is an untestable hypothesis at the moment, not a theory. It has no evidence backing it up, it is purely an opinion.

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This may be the most open minded and honest thing I've ever heard from anyone with a spiritual slant.:)

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

In my eyes, you're just as offensive as the OP because you're trying to force your beliefs on anyone who disagrees with you.

That goes to anyone who's continuing to state that animals do or do not have souls as if it were fact!
Also, if you knew much of anything about science at all, you would know that nothing is ever proven in science. You'll never hear a true scientist say they have 'proven' something. Everything is made of hypotheses, which can then form theories with large amounts of supporting evidence.

You can't prove that, and I can't prove that we have a soul. No one can even make a theory out of either. BOTH are opinions, but learn to respect others' opinions if you want yours to be respected at all.

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I stated how I feel about it, my opinion. I didn't say you have to agree with it.

Also if you find posts like this offensive, you are far to oversensitive.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

In my eyes, you're just as offensive as the OP because you're trying to force your beliefs on anyone who disagrees with you.

That goes to anyone who's continuing to state that animals do or do not have souls as if it were fact!
Also, if you knew much of anything about science at all, you would know that nothing is ever proven in science. You'll never hear a true scientist say they have 'proven' something. Everything is made of hypotheses, which can then form theories with large amounts of supporting evidence.

You can't prove that, and I can't prove that we have a soul. No one can even make a theory out of either. BOTH are opinions, but learn to respect others' opinions if you want yours to be respected at all.

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I don't think they meant their post to be taken in a matter-of-fact sense. They stated their opinion. Hence the "I believe" portion of the post.

My understanding of death basically falls in line with what DarkSean said. I do not believe in an afterlife and I believe that when our bodies die, there is simply blackness/emptiness much like I imagine it must have been before I was conceived. There have been many studies held regarding near death experiences to explain the participants' experiences. There was a study earlier this month that suggested that the lights and feelings of euphoria involved in a near death experience may be a result of heightened levels of CO2 and potassium in the body. I'm inclined to more readily accept such rational explanations than just blindly accept the notion of souls, an afterlife, gods, angels, demons, Good, Evil, etc.

It is interesting that many people who do not "believe", to put it loosely, assume that all those that DO believe have not made an educated decision about it. It is often thought that "believers" are basing their lives on a whim, tradition, or an inability to accept death or other unknowns. Although these reasons may be the root of some peoples belief, I like to think that those who believe do not have an average IQ lower than the unbelievers, nor vice-versa. It is interesting that the deepest thinkers and smartest individuals, scientists, philosophers, etc, etc, do not necessarily sit on one side of the fence nor the other.

Has anybody else found this to be the case?

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Originally Posted by mr. s

It is interesting that the deepest thinkers and smartest individuals, scientists, philosophers, etc, etc, do not necessarily sit on one side of the fence nor the other.

Has anybody else found this to be the case?

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From what I've seen, most people devoted to science are either atheists or agnostic. Here's a link that confirms what I've seen, only 7% of scientists in the poll believe in a god.

As a Christian, I think that science just helps to explain belief. Probably controversial, but there is a lot of "evidence" that backs up any theory you can think of, and through my reading of the topic I've yet to find anything that convinces me otherwise. If there was evidence, it wouldn't be called faith. That being said, I'm regularly disgusted by the actions of some of my fellow "Christians." God is supposed to be about love, not hate. That also being said, I would never try to force my beliefs on someone else. It only leads to arguments and hate and harsh words, and that is not what my religion is supposed to be about.

To assume, however, that I did not make an educated choice is rude and ignorant. It isn't just religious people that can be close-minded. There are good and bad people in every group, whether by color or creed, and it important not to judge the whole based on a few.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

From what I've seen, most people devoted to science are either atheists or agnostic. Here's a link that confirms what I've seen, only 7% of scientists in the poll believe in a god.

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Interesting study. It raises several questions.

Who was behind the study? What were the motives?
How do those numbers compare internationally?
What is the understanding of agnostic? (I've always thought of it as not subscribing to a God which is described by any religion, which would put the % of believers closer to 30%, which I will admit is fairly higher than I had thought).
Is this the common trend of the population? (I often think that if people were honest with themselves, this number would be very regular).
What is the prevailing attitude of scientists between non/believers? Is there pressure to separate oneself from religion to establish greater credibility perhaps?
Finally, a big question is asked, are non-believers more attracted to science or is science making them non-believers?

Thank you for the link.
I feel like I should not pursue this topic however, as I don't think this is really the place to be doing so.

Edit: Haha, I just realized what your name is, xdeus. Looks like your opinion is clear, and quite passionate.

I'll also point out that it's unnecessary to believe in 'god' in order to believe in life after death or the soul.

The main point is that it doesn't matter--it's irrelevant to the primary point. The soul has nothing to do with emotional capability, that's purely biological.

So, god, religion, whatever--doesn't matter. Snakes have emotions because their brains have active emotional centers.

Ball pythons are rocks that eat rats

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Originally Posted by mr. s

Thank you for the link.
I feel like I should not pursue this topic however, as I don't think this is really the place to be doing so.

Edit: Haha, I just realized what your name is, xdeus. Looks like your opinion is clear, and quite passionate.

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You bring up some interesting questions, but you're right as far as this not being the place to discuss this topic. If you'd like to pursue this discussion with others we have a hidden forum called the Quarantine Room where we place all of the controversial threads. If you don't have access to it, please send a message to an Admin and they will hook you up.

Oh, and kudos for seeing the connection with my user name. I think you were probably the first, or at least the first one to mention it. It was actually more of a joke then any kind of statement. I'm really not very passionate about it or at least vocal about my opinions. I've found that these types of discussions can get very heated, but rarely have any affect one way or another.