Toxic Plastic--What A Gas!

I have been reading more, with PVC plastics that greatest danger is NOT rigid plastic but soft. Like aquarium air lines, potentally leeching phthalates. So still not too much of a concern with stiff plastic tubs unless they are custom made from lexan.

Polyethylene and Polypropylene both seem fine unless you burn them so if you plastic racks are on fire your animals could inhale toxic gas... maybe you should save them from the fire.

I don't think that unless you work in firefighting this is a massive concern, just don't burn it. If you melt holes do that in a well ventilated area or with a respirator.

Still it is worth the 5 min to peek under the tub to find out what code it carrys and if it is a questionable one personally I'd invest the 8 bucks for a new one that is a safer plastic. No big deal.

WingedWolf...

Nice of you to cover your friend's butt, but the suggestion of a compelling arguement and links/citations was to allow her to gain a bit credibility, as at this point she is simply coming across like a troll with an agenda.

My suggestion was genuine, but she opted to ignore it, as she has most of the points that do not agree with hers, so I believe most do not see these multiple threads as even being valid at this point.

She has stated that it came to her in a eureka moment, she googled, she cut and pasted. That is not a compelling arguement to me, nor is it research. Nor is this an area with which she has sufficient expertise or knowledge.

She is dealing off the cuff and figuring it out as she goes along. As soon as this gets old (and it has) she will simply start another thread as a distraction.

People can play the game with her or they can opt out of it.

Personally, I have snakestubs to clean.

And yeah, what Del said.

Bruce

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Originally Posted by JLC

You're right in that no rules have been broken here...although if I wanted to get extremely nit-picky, I might think calling her a "Ms Knowitall" might be construed as name-calling.

Yes, it IS very annoying at times when someone gets on a really big soapbox about a particular issue they are passionate about...most especially when their position doesn't seem to be backed up by anything but personal opinion. But...do you ("you" being anyone reading and participating in this thread, not necessarily just the member being quoted)...do you really think that the overall participation in this thread has been beneficial to the site?

We get complaints that so-n-so really shouldn't be starting such an annoying thread because it doesn't help the site....but at the same time, the same folks making such a complaint spend their time mocking and otherwise deriding the points made in the original post. Which is more harmful to the overall atmosphere of the site? The original post? Or all the mocking scorn that comes after it?

Seriously....I don't agree with her position. And I don't mind anyone offering up an attempt at a logical, reasonable rebuttal. But all the negative posts made AFTER the original offending post are just as bad, if not worse.

So yeah....I'll just tell everyone who doesn't like what she has to say to simply skip her threads or put her on Ignore altogether. But so long as she respects the site and the rules of the site, she has just as much right to express her opinion here as everyone else.

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i agree. in my opinion if you dont like what she has to say dont post anything on her thread. she has her way of doing things as long as her snakes are healthy i dont have a problem with what she has to say even if i dont agree. i use both tanks and tubs and never had a problem with neither of them.

I'm sorry Bruce, but I don't know her. Her point was valid, so I provided supporting evidence, as it seemed people were quick to dismiss due to some personal bias (which is always a mistake when we're discussing animal husbandry--this isn't a popularity contest, lol).

In defense of plastic cages for ALL ball pythons:
These cages hold heat and humidity far better than a glass tank. The biggest challenge in keeping ball pythons healthy over time is providing them with proper, even temperatures and correct humidity. Humidity is often the BIGGEST challenge, and there are many ball pythons surviving in a near-constant state of low-grade dehydration, because their owners don't understand that misting during the shed cycle is not enough.

What's more glass cages are generally put together with siliconed joints, which provides areas where debris and bacteria can hide out. Plastic cages can be far more thoroughly disinfected. Due to their weight, glass cages are less likely to be frequently cleaned.

The trade-off may result in better health for pythons kept in plastic cages, whether they outgas some toxins or not.

Keep in mind that snakes kept in glass tanks are still being exposed to endocrine disrupting chemicals. The water coming from your tap is the culprit. Use bottled water? What is it bottled in? What was used to process it? The answer is plastic--plastic, and more plastic, right back to the source, which is loaded with plastic. Remember, remarkably low amounts of endocrine disruptors cause big changes. Keeping the animals in plastic tubs--or not--may very well make no difference at all, because they have constant exposure from other sources.

If truly non-toxic plastics are created to replace those now known to be harmful, I will certainly jump on the bandwagon to replace the tubs and racks I'm using. In the meantime, I believe that keeping these snakes in plastic makes superior husbandry feasible for most people.

It's true, mammal studies cannot be extrapolated directly to reptiles, but chemicals that disrupt the endocrine system of mammals will also disrupt the endocrine systems of other creatures that HAVE endocrine systems. This has proven to be true so far. That was my point when I said that "It is better to error on the side of caution while awaiting more concrete data".
The rat studies are the first done.
HOWEVER...they aren't the last. Endocrine disruption due to BPA has now been confirmed in fish.
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es000198n

I was going to say they hadn't been done in birds yet, but I found this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC227031/

If it affects mammals, birds, and fish in the same way...chances that reptiles are immune are next to none.

Could you please post a pic of Alexander's "habitat"?

So does this mean I'm safe with my sterilite tubs that have 5s on them? I'd guess so

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Originally Posted by Shock

Could you please post a pic of Alexander's "habitat"?

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i9...Alexander2.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i9...Alexander3.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i9...andershome.jpg

Above are three pictures. The first one is in his bottom den, the second one is when he went on top of his den and the 3rd is the front of his home. I did something different. I turned the fish tank on it's side and bought the heavy duty metal tank topper with door. This gives more floor space and very easy access so he can come out daily with no hassle of sliding the tank out. Plus since heat rises it will actually keep the heat in better with the top being solid.

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Unless your room is humidified to 60%, though, you may have to cover most of that 'screen front' with plastic (or wood) to trap humidity. It looks like it wouldn't do a very good job of that.

Also, if those rocks aren't actually attached, you may want to silicone them down. Ball pythons are extremely strong, and they can push over things you wouldn't think they would be able to. I wouldn't want to see him shift that structure and be injured.

DJ--as safe as anything. It's too late to avoid contamination from things like BPA and Phthalates. I'm pretty sure that as time passes, they'll find that other types of plastics have issues as well. They never really WERE properly tested, and they're made from petroleum.

Have plastics saved more lives than they have ended? It's an interesting question. We will need to replace them as soon as possible with something safe that has similar properties--it's a devil's bargain at the moment.

Out in the Pacific lies at least 700 square kilometers of exceptionally high concentrations of pelagic plastics, chemical sludge, and other debris. It's called the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, and it's a sign of the legacy of plastic that could be with us for a very, very long time...

So, I say, our ball pythons are as safe in their plastic bins as we are in our homes.

I don't think this girl knows what a Peer-Reviewed Scholarly article even means.

And see, that is why she has no sources what-so-ever. Therefore, her argument is invalid and not credible.

When you try to take a fact and put it with an opinionated topic, you better have a credible source, or you're really just blowing things out of your arsenal.

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Originally Posted by chago11

i agree. in my opinion if you dont like what she has to say dont post anything on her thread. she has her way of doing things as long as her snakes are healthy i dont have a problem with what she has to say even if i dont agree. i use both tanks and tubs and never had a problem with neither of them.

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Just a couple of things to note.

1 that post is 2 days old
2 it was in response to a question I asked directly to the moderators.

So, thank you for your opinion but if someone is interested in it they will ask you specifically or ask a question to the whole board. They will not do something like type "@ the moderators" or "@ insert name here".

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Originally Posted by David802

Just a couple of things to note.

1 that post is 2 days old
2 it was in response to a question I asked directly to the moderators.

So, thank you for your opinion but if someone is interested in it they will ask you specifically or ask a question to the whole board. They will not do something like type "@ the moderators" or "@ insert name here".

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i was replying in general not towards what you said. she has the right to have her opinion as do you so if you dont like it get over it. i said what my opinion was and if you dont like it oh well. i didnt call you out but you want to call me out. if you cant handle others opinions get off the forums.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

In any case - why does it seem to be your mission here to extol the evil-ness of tubs? Snakes have been kept in tubs for many, many years, collectively longer than most of us have been alive with no ill effects.

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1- Just because people have been doing it for years, does not mean it is safe to do. People have been drinking and smoking for a very long time.. Doesnt mean its safe to do.

2) "No ill effects"? How would you know this? Some hazardous material doesnt just show up as a huge sign that says "I have kidney cancer!". Reptiles are not capable of telling us what is wrong if anything. Yes, we can notice weezing and contribute it to RI or see black dots and say its mites.. But if there is an internal problem that is very slow acting you might just not know about it at all. My aunt had liver cancer for literally 9 years before they even thought anything was wrong. Things are not always obvious.

I am not saying this plastic toxin stuff is legit, nor am I saying the opposite. I just felt it was a bit short sighted to suggest he is just an Anti-Tub guy with no real evidence.

Personally, I wouldnt be shocked if it did in fact cause serious problems we are simply unaware of. Just cause a government says something is ok, doesnt mean it is safe...

I think what rabernet was trying to say is that they have been housed in tubs for their entire lives and are either still alive and healthy today or they died of old age, not of this so called "toxic plastic". There is no proof (that I know of) that says tubs are harmful to our snakes and will cause them to be unhealthy. I am sure plenty of the older animals that have been kept in tubs their whole lives have been given the OK by a good qualified vet.

That is enough for me.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Spell Check?

Plastic is toxic when melted and fumes inhaled. I dont believe that article one bit as i dont see plastic being approved to be sold yet it emits Toxins.

Your grasping at straws now and is getting very childish as you wont convince anyone that tubs are bad. I have snakes 4-8 years old been in tubs all their lives and never had problems or will they ever from being in tubs.

Tanks=FISH not for snakes but are most commonly used due to petstores wanting to make MORE money off your purchase.

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Cigarettes kill more then just those who smoke them and they are legal. I would never be naive enough to think that just because something is sold means that it cant be bad for you.

I sense WAY to much faith in those that run this world.

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Originally Posted by BigBlue56

Personally, I wouldnt be shocked if it did in fact cause serious problems we are simply unaware of. Just cause a government says something is ok, doesnt mean it is safe...

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Hmm... if it did cause serious problems, how could we be unaware of them? Breeders have been using plastic containers for years. One would think that if they were capable of causing serious problems... cancer or what have you, then it surely would have been noticed by now.

Even then, let's say that long term exposure does cause problems. Say my BP starts developing tumors after 40 years in captivity. He's still doing MUCH better than he would have been in nature. And who's to say other enclosures aren't worse? One has to weigh the pros and cons of all options and then select the choice that best fits them and their pet. A glass cage can break, is harder to control temp and humidity, and is more difficult to keep clean. Who's to say those qualities won't diminish your snake's lifespan or quality of life?

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Hmm... if it did cause serious problems, how could we be unaware of them? Breeders have been using plastic containers for years. One would think that if they were capable of causing serious problems... cancer or what have you, then it surely would have been noticed by now.

Even then, let's say that long term exposure does cause problems. Say my BP starts developing tumors after 40 years in captivity. He's still doing MUCH better than he would have been in nature. And who's to say other enclosures aren't worse? One has to weigh the pros and cons of all options and then select the choice that best fits them and their pet. A glass cage can break, is harder to control temp and humidity, and is more difficult to keep clean. Who's to say those qualities won't diminish your snake's lifespan or quality of life?

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Like I said, I dont necessarily believe the plastic toxic thing, i'm just paying devils advocate.

Take salt, red meat or eggs for example. Every few years a new "research" comes out and says this or that is great for you.. or this or that is bad for you. Red meat is NOTORIOUS for this kind of thing. In the 70's, it was awful for you and you were going to die if you had X amount.. Then in the 80's and 90's it was great for you and was being pushed on the general public. Then in the late 90's, they decided it was good only in moderation (like everything else) and then started pushing the pork "other white meat" on the public etc..

My point is simply that we cant dismiss the thoughts of something because there hasnt been a pandemic of millions of dying snakes. There are many hazardous things in this world and many of them have very slow and not so obvious repercussions.

It could be something so minor as slightly accelerating the natural aging process and helps cells break down faster. It might only result in a year or two off the overall age of a snake and might not see many if any clues to even suggest it is harmful. See my point? Its not so black and white as YES YOUR SNAKE WILL DIE! or NO, my snake is the healthiest everzzz!

There is a gray area is all i'm suggesting. Bad things could come in very small and well hidden packages.

In closing, I just want to reverberate that I am NOT saying plastic is this evil killer as said in the article. I am only trying to show a different side of the ball that many might be dismissing to quickly. I hope me doing so isnt stepping on toes..