Breeding normals?

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Originally Posted by FIEND_FO_LYFE

I mean, it may sound bad, but look at how many normals are on craigslist, and being rescued.

you never see a pied in need of rescuing.

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I beg to differ. I know of a breeder who just rescued a pied.

It all comes down to what 'holds value' and to whats 'in demand'.

That may sound harsh, but its the truth.

It's like if someone (for some reason) wants to breed mutt dogs even though kennels are full of them. It would only make responsible sense that, if one was going to breed dogs, that the offspring would hold some demand in the market.

Another thing, you could probably buy a normal for less then it costs to breed one, or at least close to it.

BrandonsBalls

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Originally Posted by DarkComeSoon

Here is the pied that is not my snake.
http://www.redtailboa.net/forums/mis...ht=rescue+pied
scroll down.

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What a horrible story... thanks for making me cry. :( But I'm sure that's a rare occurrence, and most "rescues" are probably normals.

wow I am starting to notice a lot of stuff that I didn't want to notice. It's almost like a lot of people on here act as if normals are worthless. These are living creatures we are talking about. I don't care if its a $40 normal from a snake show or a $800 albino, I would love and take care of it as if it was priceless.

It's like a small percent of people forgot what its all truely about. It makes me sad just reading some of the stuff in this thread and some opinions. These are living animals. How would some of you guys like it no one wanted you just because you were a $40 "normal human" and everyone was crazy about that "$800 female albino human" or whatever? Its wrong , really is.

Original Poster, I can't beleive you would even suggest that people stop breeding normal to normal.... I don't even have words to describe how ridiculous that was to see.

To be honest, if it wernt for normals I am going to guess that about 75% of us wouldnt even be into ball pythons.

Give me any BP, normal or pastel or albino or spider, i dont give a hoot . As long as I make that bond with it, it dosnt matter. I wouldn't give up my BP for anything in the world. It's like a part of my family now.

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Originally Posted by PurplePython

To be honest, if it wernt for normals I am going to guess that about 75% of us wouldnt even be into ball pythons.

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Im willing to disagree and say that if the albino set it all off, not the normal.

As for the subject overall...breeding ball pythons is a hobby. Its not like everyone is trying to create morphs. Some people just like the adventure of breeding (locking, palpating, ovulations) and dont want to pay the money for an expensive morph just so they can breed it. Not everyone is driven by money.

Breeding normals to reduce dependence on CH and imports, not gonna happen. Importation will continue. People will always be on the hunt for the next morph.

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Originally Posted by PurplePython

Give me any BP, normal or pastel or albino or spider, i dont give a hoot . As long as I make that bond with it, it dosnt matter. I wouldn't give up my BP for anything in the world. It's like a part of my family now.

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I hope you didn't take my post the wrong way, since you did use my price & morph examples... as I said later in the post, ALL of my snakes are special and definitely part of the family. I thought about selling one or two recently, and quickly realized I couldn't part with any of my babies - normal or otherwise. So I agree with you 100%! :oops:

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Originally Posted by Lolo76

I hope you didn't take my post the wrong way, since you did use my price & morph examples... as I said later in the post, ALL of my snakes are special and definitely part of the family. I thought about selling one or two recently, and quickly realized I couldn't part with any of my babies - normal or otherwise. So I agree with you 100%! :oops:

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oh no I wasnt picking you out. sorry if it seamed that way. I just sometimes get really bothered about how some people look at normals. Like the orginal poster said he wanted people to stop breeding "normals with normals" thats just ridiculous.... I don't see how a person could even think that would be a good idea.... Just stuns me to even see someone say that.

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Originally Posted by pavlovk1025

Im willing to disagree and say that if the albino set it all off, not the normal.

As for the subject overall...breeding ball pythons is a hobby. Its not like everyone is trying to create morphs. Some people just like the adventure of breeding (locking, palpating, ovulations) and dont want to pay the money for an expensive morph just so they can breed it. Not everyone is driven by money.

Breeding normals to reduce dependence on CH and imports, not gonna happen. Importation will continue. People will always be on the hunt for the next morph.

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possible, but without the normal itself, would there be anything? and also you have to try to factor in all of those people who got their normals from some bigtime pet shot, and knew NOTHING about ball pythons at first, then began to learn a lot and then got big into the hobby itself.

I honestly would have to say more people began getting into BP's just from the normal itself, but you may be right. It just seams impossible for normals NOT to be the reason, ya know?

It's kinda like tarantulas. Most likely a majority of people who collect all different types of tarantulas started out with the rose-hair that you can find at any mainstream pet store, then eventually after doing researching nd learning more and more, they realized "hey theres a lot of others I would love to have, ect ect".

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Originally Posted by PurplePython

possible, but without the normal itself, would there be anything? and also you have to try to factor in all of those people who got their normals from some bigtime pet shot, and knew NOTHING about ball pythons at first, then began to learn a lot and then got big into the hobby itself.

I honestly would have to say more people began getting into BP's just from the normal itself, but you may be right. It just seams impossible for normals NOT to be the reason, ya know?

It's kinda like tarantulas. Most likely a majority of people who collect all different types of tarantulas started out with the rose-hair that you can find at any mainstream pet store, then eventually after doing researching nd learning more and more, they realized "hey theres a lot of others I would love to have, ect ect".

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I thought you meant normals started it back in the day. No youre right, most people get a normal,google husbandry, find this site, find pics of morphs, etc etc. And then theyre addicted. Id have to agree with you on that for sure.

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Originally Posted by pavlovk1025

I thought you meant normals started it back in the day. No youre right, most people get a normal,google husbandry, find this site, find pics of morphs, etc etc. And then theyre addicted. Id have to agree with you on that for sure.

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That is what happened to me :).

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Originally Posted by FIEND_FO_LYFE

Does it bug you when you hear of people breeding normals?
My personal though is, there are too many normals in the world, and we should try to limit getting more. Not saying we should put them down, but instead of norm x norm breeding, do norm to pastel.

Whats everyone's opinion?

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I know all the colors, and pattern morphs are "pretty" but let's not forget that we are trying to propagate a dwindling species.

I've gotta say this is the "Pretty butterfly" syndrome. Breed the butterflies, and kill the moths. Why? The butterflies are prettier of course. Too many people think that every animal species was put here on earth to be our pets. Yes, ball pythons make great pets, but why would we get to decide there are too many normals.

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Originally Posted by dturner100

I know all the colors, and pattern morphs are "pretty" but let's not forget that we are trying to propagate a dwindling species.

I've gotta say this is the "Pretty butterfly" syndrome. Breed the butterflies, and kill the moths. Why? The butterflies are prettier of course. Too many people think that every animal species was put here on earth to be our pets. Yes, ball pythons make great pets, but why would we get to decide there are too many normals.

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One thing I would like to point out is that Ball Pythons in their home range are NOT a dwindling species, they are actually an expanding species. Ball Pythons actually do best on land that has been disturbed as what happens in farming. As more land in Africa is put to agricultural use, the more the Ball Pythons range will expand.

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Originally Posted by dr del

:confused:

I'll agree to stop breeding normal ball pythons when the human race agrees to stop breeding idiots. :rolleyes:

It's not the availablility or genetics of the snake that makes it turn up on craigslist. :colbert:


dr del

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Couldn't have said it better!

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Originally Posted by dr del

:confused:

I'll agree to stop breeding normal ball pythons when the human race agrees to stop breeding idiots. :rolleyes:

It's not the availablility or genetics of the snake that makes it turn up on craigslist. :colbert:


dr del

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I think every day on how some people just should no propagate!

I sometimes find normals even prettier than some morphs..

Normals are gorgeous, should never stop breeding them.

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Originally Posted by CamStatic

I sometimes find normals even prettier than some morphs..

Normals are gorgeous, should never stop breeding them.

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Exactly! Why are we breeding them if we don't love the snake they all came from.

Also, though I'm considered the "weird snake guy" so my opinion is bias but I definitely agree that we should stop breeding idiots. If only baby idiots came as color morphs we'd be able to discard them at a young age. Wonder how you spot idiot het markers?

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Originally Posted by dturner100

Wonder how you spot idiot het markers?

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I may state you can tell by their insurance record..

Just wanted to see what frog had to say.
Maybe we can check out the idiot's driving record.

I bred several wild caught native snakes when I was growing up. Are there too many native snakes? I know - different subject - I also didn't sell any of those snakes. All the babies I produced from my native snake breeding were set free with the exception of some speckled king snakes that I gave to a snake keeping friend of mine.

I see nothing wrong with breeding normals to normals. I do hope the hatchlings go to good homes. When I sell a ball python, I always include a care sheet. Sadly---the care sheets are not always followed.

Be aware that very young idiots may not have a driving record yet.

i do not think the OP is saying "do not breed normals because they are worthless" but the sad truth is that normal ball pythons are disposable animals, like all inexpensive pets, and are commonly treated as such. whether we agree with this or not, im sure we've all experienced this attitude in some way and at some point or another.

obviously most of us here do not consider these animals disposable but we are not the majority and all disposables will continue to be mistreated as long as they are cheap and easily acquired.

it would be nice to see these animals less available to impulse buyers and hopefully by doing this we will see less mistreated disposables in need of rescue and a new home. unfortunately this is much easier said than done as simply to stop breeding normals is clearly not an option and agreeing on another option may be close to impossible.

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Originally Posted by PurplePython

wow I am starting to notice a lot of stuff that I didn't want to notice. It's almost like a lot of people on here act as if normals are worthless. These are living creatures we are talking about. I don't care if its a $40 normal from a snake show or a $800 albino, I would love and take care of it as if it was priceless.

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Value is entirely subjective. My normal ball python is worthless to others but priceless to me.

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Originally Posted by PurplePython

It's like a small percent of people forgot what its all truely about. It makes me sad just reading some of the stuff in this thread and some opinions. These are living animals. How would some of you guys like it no one wanted you just because you were a $40 "normal human" and everyone was crazy about that "$800 female albino human" or whatever? Its wrong , really is.

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I find this hysterical. This is exactly how life for humans works. No one wants me because I am a normal human. I was very lucky to find someone who saw my value and now takes care of me. Everyone is crazy for the morph humans. We call them attractive people or in the extreme celebrities. It may be wrong but its reality. I choose to accept it and move on.

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Originally Posted by PurplePython

Original Poster, I can't beleive you would even suggest that people stop breeding normal to normal.... I don't even have words to describe how ridiculous that was to see.

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It makes total sense to me an many others. If you want to breed a normal to a normal that is your business. I believe that the OP was talking about breeders or people who are doing it to sell the offspring. This is a very valid question.

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Originally Posted by PurplePython

To be honest, if it wernt for normals I am going to guess that about 75% of us wouldnt even be into ball pythons.

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I believe the albino BP started the craze. If you are referring to the fact that the normal ball python is the source of all mutations then if not for them 100% of us wouldn't be into ball pythons. I for one am quite fond of the normal type but I would dare say they did not start the craze.

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Originally Posted by PurplePython

Give me any BP, normal or pastel or albino or spider, i dont give a hoot . As long as I make that bond with it, it dosnt matter. I wouldn't give up my BP for anything in the world. It's like a part of my family now.

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Bond is a very strong word to use when referring to a reptile. Attachment is much more likely. I love my BP dearly but would give it up for many many things. I would save my cats first for instance, my girlfriend before that. If it came down to my car or my snake. You can have my snake. As much as I would like to stand by my earlier statement that my BP is priceless to me, I can't. It has a worth. I would be hard pressed to put a number on that worth but I can tell you that its less than $8,000 dollars and more than $100.

Heavy thread...

We can't stop idiots who won't take care of their pet.
We can't stop normals being available aside from legally licensing who can sell them (possible good idea, but would disenfranchise many such as myself). Importers and other people will still do what you don't want them to do. A ban would only fuel a black market as it does with everything.
I was shocked by the very idea of stopping breeding normals just because idiots don't take care of them. Make it a normal or anything else, if they'll treat any living creature like that, you can bet they'll do the same to another. Remember, most people hate these animals. True, spiteful, horrible hate.
Normals (and any other morph) should be bred for desirable qualities as well as appearance.

I don't know. This is like the people who kill cats and dogs because they think there're too many of them. There are too many people. Shall we start killing them? Their overpopulation issue threatens us in a far greater way. Or just spay and neuter? Or just leave it to nature to sort out? Again, it could be solved if people in general were less idiotic.

I guess I should ask, "Why NOT breed normals?" Aside from just not wanting to produce them, why shouldn't they be bred in general?

OP, you've picked up on a lot of problems with the bp industry, the pet industry, education, and humanity in general. But, normal ball pythons are NOT the cause for these problems, and their absence would not be the solution. These problems all have their own complicated roots and various possible solutions, which are all outside the scope of this thread, this forum, this community, this industry, and any group that isn't the majority of a majority of the countries of the world.

Don't make normal ball pythons a poor scapegoat for what's wrong with humanity. Please.

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Originally Posted by stevepoppers

Heavy thread...

We can't stop idiots who won't take care of their pet.
We can't stop normals being available aside from legally licensing who can sell them (possible good idea, but would disenfranchise many such as myself). Importers and other people will still do what you don't want them to do. A ban would only fuel a black market as it does with everything.
I was shocked by the very idea of stopping breeding normals just because idiots don't take care of them. Make it a normal or anything else, if they'll treat any living creature like that, you can bet they'll do the same to another. Remember, most people hate these animals. True, spiteful, horrible hate.
Normals (and any other morph) should be bred for desirable qualities as well as appearance.

I don't know. This is like the people who kill cats and dogs because they think there're too many of them. There are too many people. Shall we start killing them? Their overpopulation issue threatens us in a far greater way. Or just spay and neuter? Or just leave it to nature to sort out? Again, it could be solved if people in general were less idiotic.

I guess I should ask, "Why NOT breed normals?" Aside from just not wanting to produce them, why shouldn't they be bred in general?

OP, you've picked up on a lot of problems with the bp industry, the pet industry, education, and humanity in general. But, normal ball pythons are NOT the cause for these problems, and their absence would not be the solution. These problems all have their own complicated roots and various possible solutions, which are all outside the scope of this thread, this forum, this community, this industry, and any group that isn't the majority of a majority of the countries of the world.

Don't make normal ball pythons a poor scapegoat for what's wrong with humanity. Please.

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All ugly people should be fixed!!! No more ugly people! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by stevepoppers

Heavy thread...

We can't stop idiots who won't take care of their pet.
We can't stop normals being available aside from legally licensing who can sell them (possible good idea, but would disenfranchise many such as myself). Importers and other people will still do what you don't want them to do. A ban would only fuel a black market as it does with everything.
I was shocked by the very idea of stopping breeding normals just because idiots don't take care of them. Make it a normal or anything else, if they'll treat any living creature like that, you can bet they'll do the same to another. Remember, most people hate these animals. True, spiteful, horrible hate.
Normals (and any other morph) should be bred for desirable qualities as well as appearance.

I don't know. This is like the people who kill cats and dogs because they think there're too many of them. There are too many people. Shall we start killing them? Their overpopulation issue threatens us in a far greater way. Or just spay and neuter? Or just leave it to nature to sort out? Again, it could be solved if people in general were less idiotic.

I guess I should ask, "Why NOT breed normals?" Aside from just not wanting to produce them, why shouldn't they be bred in general?

OP, you've picked up on a lot of problems with the bp industry, the pet industry, education, and humanity in general. But, normal ball pythons are NOT the cause for these problems, and their absence would not be the solution. These problems all have their own complicated roots and various possible solutions, which are all outside the scope of this thread, this forum, this community, this industry, and any group that isn't the majority of a majority of the countries of the world.

Don't make normal ball pythons a poor scapegoat for what's wrong with humanity. Please.

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Sorry to be harsh but I think you are missing the point. As humans we can't save the world from all the bad things. You are 100% right about that. What we can do is try and cause the least harm. If you are going to breed Ball Pythons you are going to produce normals. A pastel bread to a pastel will produce 25% normals for instance. When you go to sell those normals you have to compete with wild caught or captive hatched normals that are legally brought into the country. This forces you to sell the normals at a very low price. The low price makes them easier to buy on a whim. When people buy pets on a whim they often later regret that decision and put them on craigslist or worse let the go into the wild. These types of actions give the rest of us a bad name. If you, as a BP lover say, "I will never breed a normal to a normal," (not talking about dinker projects of course) then you are making a commitment to not making the problems we face worse. Again its not about making a commitment to not produce normals. Its about not pairing animals that will ONLY produce normals. Or at least thats one side of the argument. Its just simple math that ON AVERAGE, animals that cost more are better cared for. This is because most people will think harder before buying and when someone does go out and buy an expensive animal that they later regret, there are many people waiting in line to take over that responsibility. To put it simply. How many times do we see normal BP on craigslist for a 100 dollar rehoming fee. Most of us don't give too much thought to saving these BP's. Those same people might jump to adopt a super pastel BP with a 100 dollar rehoming fee.

idk what pet stores you are going to, but here in PA pet stores sell normal BP's for $100 and up, I saw a 350g male albino on sale for $750!

You could take this debate and use it for any part of animal breeding, dogs for example...people are breeding dogs for a profit when there are hundreds of thousands of dogs in shelters being put down/without a home..we have no need to keep breeding these animals when so many are in need of help.

Just my opinion

Normals aren't the problem! Normal ball pythons aren't the only animal being treated this way. If it wasn't normals, the idiots would be mistreating some other morph or animal. Lessening the normal population just puts another in their place.

What is HSUS saying about us? You're using the same argument, and it's not a very good one. They're trying to outlaw our pets because some people don't take care of theirs. Recently, in the Steubenville, OH area near me, there was a horribly abused dog found. It was horrible and the entire community is pissed at whoever did this to that poor animal. But does anyone thinks dogs shouldn't be kept as pets because of this? No! There's no reason for that. The millions of people nationwide who take excellent care of their dogs outweigh the bastards who don't. Same with our pets. The PETS aren't the problem.

I for one will never sell to anyone who hasn't proven to me that they know at least the basics of how to take care of them. They'll also get a recommendation for this site. That's no matter what kind of ball I sell them.

Also, the import market will be there no matter what. There's nothing you can do about pet store impulse buy ball pythons, so why even compete with them? Don't sell to those people. Sell to informed buyers if you really care about the welfare of the pet.

Also people who pay more for the animal are likely to have a good reason to do so. They are probably already educated about the animal and understand why the animal is worth what it is.

We're on common ground at this point. But breeding normals isn't the problem, it's selling them to the petstores and competing with imports and putting them in the reach of the idiots. As I said, I'll sell wholesale directly to well-informed and prepared customers. (Idea courteous of cooliotiffany, I think.)

Its not what you breed.

Its what you do with what you breed.

Brandon

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Originally Posted by BrandonsBalls

Its not what you breed.

Its what you do with what you breed.

Brandon

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I like that. :)

My first reptile pets came from pet stores. If it weren't for that, perhaps I would have NEVER developed an interest in keeping reptiles.

The key is education, not keeping animals out of the hands of public. That's HSUS's argument again--that the average person is simply too stupid to take care of a pet reptile properly. I don't believe that.

I do think the industry needs to police itself better. There shouldn't BE pet stores that don't know how to care for the animals they are selling. It should be required that the owners and workers know basic care information for the species they sell. That is the only way they can be expected to pass it on to a consumer--a consumer who may be entirely innocent, and believe they HAVE gotten the right information, because the pet store worker said so.

We can spend all day saying they should have bought a book--but they didn't know they needed one. They thought they were given what they needed to know when they bought the animal.

Prevent THAT from happening, and you would prevent far more than half of the problems with improper care happening out there.

The world needs normal morphs. Its a great starter pet and not everyone wanting a ball python can afford a couple hundred dollars that some of even the single genes go for. There are ppl who do really like the normal pattern. Take the Burmese for example I actually prefer the normal over al the morphs except maybe the hypo. And for those who breed morphs, they need those hobbyists who just breed normals, if normals numbers were fewer, we would also see a sharp drop in the going rate of morphs. Those pets on craigslist are there due to irresponsible pet owners, that simple. Not because they were normals.

Zombie thread alert, this thread is from 2010, much has changed since then.

there are now many basic morphs that you can get for 100 dollars or less at reptile shows. you can get well-started good quality normals starting at 15-20 dollars now. and breedings of normal to normal are getting really rare. even hobbyists and amateurs have access to double gene or triple gene combos for breeding. these developments were all underway in 2010, but the additional years since this thread was last active make a difference.

Holy bojangles. I went to the site and for some reason this thread came up as a fresh thread on the main screen. Wonder how that happened. Unless someone posted on it, saw the date and quickly deleted it.

dont worry, the thread will get pushed back quickly enough once people realize its outdated and stop posting.

and i now told everyone that its a zombie thread.

somehow this happens quite often.

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Originally Posted by kylearmbar

Holy bojangles. I went to the site and for some reason this thread came up as a fresh thread on the main screen. Wonder how that happened. Unless someone posted on it, saw the date and quickly deleted it.

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I think voting in the poll also bumps the thread.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

dont worry, the thread will get pushed back quickly enough once people realize its outdated and stop posting.

and i now told everyone that its a zombie thread.

somehow this happens quite often.

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I think just by voting in the poll it bumps it up to the main page. You don't necessarily have to post a reply.

Bump! :D

since its 2014, should we not start a NEW THREAD asking the same or even better questions to sort this out, if there even is demand for sorting this out?

damn, this is so meta, i guess i will just leave this thread and let you figure it out.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/hofstadter.png

Everyone has their own opinion. If people want to breed normals than so be it. If people want to breed pretty morphs so be it. I actually think this discussion is pointless...for Pete's sake do we not have better things to argue about? The only people breeding normals are importers and first time breeders. Did you ever think that maybe some people prefer normals over pastels or other morphs? Honestly, I'm actually starting to like normals more than my muddy pastel and other morphs. But no I'm not breeding normals because I'm into piebalds right now. But if I did want to breed normals it's because that's my personal taste and I don't give a care what others like. I'm not going to jump off a bridge because everyone else is doing it. Besides normals are cheaper than any other morph. Of course people are going to buy the cheaper pet. I'd like to see you all drop the prices of your fancy morphs and then you'll see normals start disappearing and being bred.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know this is a zombie thread, but I was discussing this earlier on another forum.

I don't think that people should breed two normals. I think that the market (and craigslist) is saturated with normals that need homes, and there aren't enough homes for them all. I've seen/talked to people who own king cobras and king snakes, and normal ball pythons are a regular food source for them because they are so readily available and so cheap. Many boa breeders I've talked to have normal ball pythons that they use to detect disease before it hits their boas. The fact that they're being used as snake food and mine canaries should be a clue that they are pretty common at this point.

Some normals will be inevitable when you're breeding morphs, but I don't think that people should breed them on purpose unless they think there's some genetic potential there.

Lol holy moly it IS a zombie post...whose the wise guy who posted on it to push it to the top again? Haha


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm happy to entertain a discussion about whether or not normal ball pythons should be bred, but if folks want to, let's start a fresh thread, rather than making the unsuspecting soul wade through walls of text that are four years old and not particularly relevant any longer.

This old thread got bumped with a vote. I do my best to put a 90 day time limit on all polls (except for a few classic polls that roll with the years), but sometimes they get missed. The reason for the 90 day limit is to prevent this very sort of thing. Some folks find it amusing to dredge up ancient threads and bump them with an anonymous vote. 90 days is plenty of time for any poll to gather the data its creator is looking for, but short enough to prevent this kind of zombie invasion.