Snakes/Reptiles and their Emotions The argument

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Again, we know what we think we know. That is until a new discovery allows us to transend the known facts. I do not deny what you're quoting, but is this the true fact or just a percieved fact that will change when a new discovery has been made?

Jim Smith

---

So I'm just banging my head into the wall here aren't I.

I hate arguments like yours, because you can say it to anything. I.e.- we think pigs can't fly, because that is what we know right now. Maybe one day we will find out that pigs can fly by altering their own gravitational field using some part of their butt we don't know exists or don't know the function of.

But here's what I will ask you. What is your belief that snakes can feel based on? If you are willing to accept that right now, the scientific community has found convincing evidence that snakes can't feel, then what evidence do you have to support your own conclusion? Just your own observations?

I'm not interested in what man thinks and "knows" to be the truth. What I'm saying is that just because mankind says something is so, doesn't mean it really is. That's what discovery is all about, learning a little more, so that we can understand just a little more. But does it mean we actual know everything. Of course not. We have to light the fire under all mankind to never accept what is told to you as a fact. We must all strive to uncover new details. We must always continue to learn NEW facts, to continue to build on known facts.

Look, I don't want to continue this discussion. Nothing against you, but until you learn to look outside the box, we'll all live on a flat world.

Jim Smith

I totally get what J_H is saying. Just because we as humans have emotions because of one part of our brain....doesnt mean that snakes need to have emotions from that part of the brain. ?? After all don't we only use something like 5% of our brain. (or something crazy like that). Are we not just learning what the whale songs mean....are we not just learning to communicate with dolphins over the last decade or two.

What J is saying is...there are things that could be....that we do not yet understand....we are constantly learning and developing ourselves. And we are constantly realizing things that we use to believe that now are totally different.

Who is to say that maybe they do have emo but that it comes in a different form from a different part of them. ?? Just saying...:please:

I see... Attack me and my facts, and then claim that I am unwilling to sway my opinion (which is, again, based on the most up to date information available) and just shut down the discussion. Because I challenge you to back up your argument. It's the ol' religious debate strategy. Fine, I'm done... This discussion turned into me vs. you with no one else contributing anyways. Until you learn to accept facts rather than relying on what you "believe", there's no point in arguing with you.

By the way, it was religious leaders who rejected the theory that the world was round. They couldn't think outside their flat world box enough to accept scientific facts. Just sayin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MustBeSatan

By the way, it was religious leaders who rejected the theory that the world was round. They couldn't think outside their flat world box enough to accept scientific facts. Just sayin.

---

Please - lets not turn this into a religious debate.

Woop, BPelizabeth, that wasn't directed at you (hope that was obvious), you posted while I was writing.

I think it's just too easy to fall into the human tendancy to place emotional significance on the actions of our reptiles where there is none. I was watching my Sudan Plated just a few minutes ago after I cleaned and filled his water bowl, and he came out of hiding, drank some, and then watched me intently. It was like he was saying "thanks! I was thirsty". In reality, he was probably deciding whether or not I was a threat, but I would like to think he still appreciates it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MustBeSatan

I see... Attack me and my facts, and then claim that I am unwilling to sway my opinion (which is, again, based on the most up to date information available) and just shut down the discussion. Because I challenge you to back up your argument. It's the ol' religious debate strategy. Fine, I'm done... This discussion turned into me vs. you with no one else contributing anyways. Until you learn to accept facts rather than relying on what you "believe", there's no point in arguing with you.

By the way, it was religious leaders who rejected the theory that the world was round. They couldn't think outside their flat world box enough to accept scientific facts. Just sayin.

---

I'm sorry if you think I attacked you. But you said it yourself, "based on the most up to date information available". This does not mean a definitive fact. Beyond reproach. Just facts as we know it today. You must open your mind to the notion that there is a possiblity that there is more out there than what we know at this time. I have never denied facts, but I'm asking you to look past what we know as fact today and what could be out there in the future. This goes much further than snakes and their emotion.

Why bring the religious factor into this dicussion?

BTW, did you ever listen to the 5th Demensions. They've got some interesting music?

Jim Smith

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nate

Please - lets not turn this into a religious debate.

---

Yeah, sry, that will be my one and only comment on the subject. From here on out it's all about inter-species love. Or lack there of.

Platonic love that is. Just thought I'd crush that one in the bud. Platonic, friend kinda love. That's all.

One day, maybe we will be able to communicate with animals. Maybe we will find out that they have emotion. But how can we hope to form educated opinions if we always just assume that what we know is wrong?

I'm always intrigued by these kind of arguments.

I am on the boat of "Reptiles do not have the mental facilities to experience emotions as humans know them." I believe they are instinctual creatures and based on what we know about brains and their structures I have no reason to believe otherwise.

I can see both sides of the argument here. Is it possible that reptiles have a larger mental capacity than what we give them credit for? I would like to think so. It was not long ago that it was thought that animals, and even infants, did not feel pain.

The brain is probably the most mysterious - and most studied - organs out there. I am certain that there is more to learn about its function in many creatures. Quick example - I suffered severe brain trauma and death as a child. I was resusciated and not expected to function normally due to my brain hemmoraging and a lack of oxygen (to the brain) for several minutes. Part of my left hemisphere was removed. Well... I function quite well, if I say so myself. ;)

But even so, I do not feel that emotions are applicable to reptiles based on their behavior. Why would they need them? Reptiles do not bond to mates, they do not form friendships, a very high percentage of them are not maternal..

I could go on, but it's all speculation! I appreciate my animals for what they are and do not need them to conform themselves to what emotional expectations I might have for a pet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by coldblooded

I'm always intrigued by these kind of arguments.

But even so, I do not feel that emotions are applicable to reptiles based on their behavior. Why would they need them? Reptiles do not bond to mates, they do not form friendships, a very high percentage of them are not maternal..

---

Ever try to reach in to grab a newly laid clutch of eggs while the mom is wrapped around these eggs? I do believe there is a maternal instinct there to be sure.

Just an observation!
Jim Smith

I totally did not take it like that Must be....;) I got it. Its all good!!

Look....I would love to hope they love me as much as I love them....as most of you already know....I am totally over the top with my all of my babies.

Do they...probably not. But still I would like to keep an open mind that maybe someday we will learn that we were great big dumb butts and they are totally trying to communicate with us on a different level.

Okay, here's a question to keep this thread constructive.

If we assume that snakes feel emotion, do we assume they feel boredom? If they do, aren't we really big jerks? I mean... What do they have in their lives to stimulate them mentally? Even a fairly large tank, with lots of things to climb on and in, would eventually become so boring that a human in the same situation would go insane.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Ever try to reach in to grab a newly laid clutch of eggs while the mom is wrapped around these eggs? I do believe there is a maternal instinct there to be sure.

Just an observation!
Jim Smith

---

I did say a very high percentage, not all. ;)

My leopard geckos hardly give a rip when I go to get their eggs out of the lay boxes.

Ball pythons are a species that maternally incubate eggs. It would be a good response for them to act aggressively towards something that may threaten them or their clutch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MustBeSatan

Okay, here's a question to keep this thread constructive.

If we assume that snakes feel emotion, do we assume they feel boredom? If they do, aren't we really big jerks? I mean... What do they have in their lives to stimulate them mentally? Even a fairly large tank, with lots of things to climb on and in, would eventually become so boring that a human in the same situation would go insane.

---

we take ours out everyday except when they are in shed or for the 48 hours after they eat. They get tons of exercise here and each has their own thing that they like to do. Except maybe Isabella the new little tiny one. She is a little scared of everything still but she hasn't even hit 100 grams yet. Not quite sure what we are going to do as the number grows though. It will be interesting around here. lol I actually thought about making them a little "pen" so to speak where it had things for them to do. You could put them in there and not worry about them taking off under the couch.

But again....I am over the top and clearly have waaaaaaaayyyyyyy to much time on my hands. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Ever try to reach in to grab a newly laid clutch of eggs while the mom is wrapped around these eggs? I do believe there is a maternal instinct there to be sure.

Just an observation!
Jim Smith

---

Actually I have, and knock wood, my females really don't seem to care. They come off their eggs easily. And once the scent of eggs is washed off of them and their tub, they don't have any further maternal instinct towards them.

I ADORE my snakes, every last one of them. Most of them are named. But I don't have any doubt, that if set loose outside, that they wouldn't just slither off without any concern about leaving me behind.

As I said earlier, I don't have any NEED for them to reciprocate the feelings that I have for them. I love, admire and respect them for being magnificently "them".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

Actually I have, and knock wood, my females really don't seem to care. They come off their eggs easily. And once the scent of eggs is washed off of them and their tub, they don't have any further maternal instinct towards them.

I ADORE my snakes, every last one of them. Most of them are named. But I don't have any doubt, that if set loose outside, that they wouldn't just slither off without any concern about leaving me behind.

As I said earlier, I don't have any NEED for them to reciprocate the feelings that I have for them. I love, admire and respect them for being magnificently "them".

---

I hope I haven't given the wrong impression. I am not saying that snakes have emotions. My argument was to stress the importance of looking outside the box and not standing on status quo. We do not know what a snake's brain is capable of. Wwe may think we do, but we thought the world was flat at one time too. Just throwing it out there.

Jim Smith

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by j_h_smith

I hope I haven't given the wrong impression. I am not saying that snakes have emotions. My argument was to stress the importance of looking outside the box and not standing on status quo. We do not know what a snake's brain is capable of. Wwe may think we do, but we thought the world was flat at one time too. Just throwing it out there.

Jim Smith

---

I totally understand your point of view.

If anything, you are encouraging people to not accept what they are told as fact, but to keep an open mind about new ideas. Like you said, if everyone just accepted the world was flat... it would be flat. And at one time, everyone accepted that the universe rotated around the earth. Everyone simply heard what scientists have discovered, and accepted it for truth.

The problem is, those new theories were never accepted until proven scientifically. Unfortunately, this whole discussion is the same way. Currently, science states that reptiles do not have the same emotions that we do. They survive on instinct, that is all they process. So we accept that as fact. And until someone comes along and scientifically proves it otherwise, I am going to have to believe it. Am I the one to prove that? Not a chance lol.

Am I wrong? Who knows. Nobody does. Which is why science is so fascinating. It can be earth shattering, ground breaking, amazing discoveries.

Interesting fact:

As little as 200 years ago, no one had even heard the word Dinosaur. Prehistoric giant lizards that dominated the planet? Yeah right. Wasn't until the 1820's when a man by the name William Buckland discovered some really big teeth in England. The name Dinosaur was coined in the 1840's.

Put that in perspective. The founding fathers of the US knew nothing of Dinosaurs. Ben Franklin and George Washington both died in the 1790s. They knew nothing of dinosaurs.

A short 200 years later, it is accepted fact that prehistoric lizards did walk the earth millions of years ago. Do you think people 200 years ago (1800), sat around and thought up these giant lizards? Of course not. That would be ridiculous and impossible.

Our lifetime is nothing but a mere blip in history. Who knows what the future holds. I am sure in 200 years, we will all be laughed at for accepting something that is proven to be completely inaccurate. Or a whole new discovery entirely.

Sorry to derail the thread. :cool: And no, my snakes don't love me.

Very well said.

Whoa this thread got long. Jeez, I get busy and can't check the internet as often as I'd like for, what, a week or so? And then I spend half an hour reading seven pages of debate. XD

Quote:

---

This is the best explanation on this subject ever (IMO) when the next person beats on this horse this post should be pasted and the thread locked.

---

LOL, thanks. ;)

Quote:

---

I ADORE my snakes, every last one of them. Most of them are named. But I don't have any doubt, that if set loose outside, that they wouldn't just slither off without any concern about leaving me behind.

As I said earlier, I don't have any NEED for them to reciprocate the feelings that I have for them. I love, admire and respect them for being magnificently "them".

---

This is exactly how I feel, too. :)

I can't help but feel that many people who insist their snakes feel emotion are probably misreading the animal. Macchiato seems to "like" me because I'm familiar to him...he's handled often and knows that my scent = safety. He's a little more cautious about unfamiliar people. They are, to him, unknown and therefore a possible threat.

I don't think he has any emotional attachment to me, though. I tried, the other day, to believe he had emotions. I watched him, let him crawl all over, sang to him (thankfully my roommate wasn't about, as I do not sing particularly well) and basically slathered him with affection.

If I really tried, I could imagine that some of his actions were emotionally based. If I tried.

Realistically, it was simpler and more sensical to assign basic instinctual repsonses...occam's razor, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

At one point, I set him on the couch, and he immediately crawled onto my lap and curled up. If I wanted to believe he has emotions, I'd claim he was cuddling, because he likes me.

However, let's look at the facts...the couch is the favourite hangout of the resident cats, and I think he views their scent as that of predators, and he knows my scent means a safe perch or a warm place to nap. Ergo, my lap is FAR more attractive than a cat-smelling not-warm sofa!

I guess what I'm getting at, is that people who want to believe their reptiles have emotions will assign motive and emotion to actions that lack emotions entirely. Ergo, they have their proof. I for one cannot believe it. It isn't that I don't WANT to, it'd be nice if my snakes love me...

...but I don't NEED them to love me in order to love THEM.

Want versus need. Wow, I should probably shut up and get some sleep. :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyle@theHeathertoft

This is exactly how I feel, too. :)

I can't help but feel that many people who insist their snakes feel emotion are probably misreading the animal. Macchiato seems to "like" me because I'm familiar to him...he's handled often and knows that my scent = safety. He's a little more cautious about unfamiliar people. They are, to him, unknown and therefore a possible threat.

I don't think he has any emotional attachment to me, though. I tried, the other day, to believe he had emotions. I watched him, let him crawl all over, sang to him (thankfully my roommate wasn't about, as I do not sing particularly well) and basically slathered him with affection.

If I really tried, I could imagine that some of his actions were emotionally based. If I tried.

Realistically, it was simpler and more sensical to assign basic instinctual repsonses...occam's razor, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

At one point, I set him on the couch, and he immediately crawled onto my lap and curled up. If I wanted to believe he has emotions, I'd claim he was cuddling, because he likes me.

However, let's look at the facts...the couch is the favourite hangout of the resident cats, and I think he views their scent as that of predators, and he knows my scent means a safe perch or a warm place to nap. Ergo, my lap is FAR more attractive than a cat-smelling not-warm sofa!

I guess what I'm getting at, is that people who want to believe their reptiles have emotions will assign motive and emotion to actions that lack emotions entirely. Ergo, they have their proof. I for one cannot believe it. It isn't that I don't WANT to, it'd be nice if my snakes love me...

...but I don't NEED them to love me in order to love THEM.

Want versus need. Wow, I should probably shut up and get some sleep. :P

---

Very well said!