Spider wobble in full effect

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

Seems pretty apparent to me that the animal in the first video, even with the exaggerated wobble, was still capable of striking and coiling its prey. It moves in jerky uncoordinated movements, but it can still lead a normal life. No reason to cull them off, especially since these "handicaps" don't surface until they reach a more mature state.

Also the spider shows the signs of the wobble, which is inherently a part of its genetic makeup, but I am 100% positive that other morphs out there have other "handicaps" that aren't so apparent. They could simply be internal deviations, or lack accurate vision, or the thermal pits could be skewed. We honestly do not know.

If and when you go to breed you simply need to understand that these are morphs, which in short form mean that they are merely mutations. With every mutation there are other factors that change other than just color. Don't crucify one morph for a genetic "fault" when one of your personal animals could have something far worse internally you do not know about, because the animal cannot tell you it can't see or smell properly.

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the OP stated that he usually has to assist feed his spider which IMO means it should not be used in a breeding program and if showed signs as such as a hatchling should be culled.
I am well aware that morphs are genetic mutations and that there may be other effects that morph genes have on those specific morphs, but some are less severe then others, IMO a bad wobble is severe enough to not breed the animal.

I'd like to add my two cents.

I love the look of the Spider morph. SO so pretty. I want my own Spider Mojave someday...maybe a Bumblebee or three...and I would die of sheer glee if I ever manage to aquire or breed a VPI axanthic Spider. OMG, SO MUCH GLEE.

I am not put off by the wobbling and still want a Spider because, honestly, this is not an animal that will have to worry about surviving in the cruel harsh real world wilderness. This will be a cherished pet as well as a breeding animal, and if I need to help it get ahold of it's prey, so be it. I highly doubt my lovable, stupid, BRAIN DAMAGED rescue-kitty could survive for more than two seconds outside the apartment, and more than once I've had to help her with food...her face is deformed (though she looks beautiful, she has mild entropion and her tear ducts face outwards, so she doesn't always see well) so she can't always find it when she is given a snack.

Do I refuse to keep her around because without human intervention she'd be helpless and likely starve to death or worse???? NO. As someone else pointed out, so long as they can strike and feed, there is no reason a Spider should be culled.

On that note, I believe I might name my future Spider Weeble. Because Weeble will wobble. ;)

I have no idea if what they feel is like what I felt when I have a viral infection in my inner ear (viral labyrinthsitis) but if it is I feel very sorry for them. It is miserable not being able to get your balance. It's very frightening.

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Originally Posted by Heathertoft

I'd like to add my two cents.

I love the look of the Spider morph. SO so pretty. I want my own Spider Mojave someday...maybe a Bumblebee or three...and I would die of sheer glee if I ever manage to aquire or breed a VPI axanthic Spider. OMG, SO MUCH GLEE.

I am not put off by the wobbling and still want a Spider because, honestly, this is not an animal that will have to worry about surviving in the cruel harsh real world wilderness. This will be a cherished pet as well as a breeding animal, and if I need to help it get ahold of it's prey, so be it. I highly doubt my lovable, stupid, BRAIN DAMAGED rescue-kitty could survive for more than two seconds outside the apartment, and more than once I've had to help her with food...her face is deformed (though she looks beautiful, she has mild entropion and her tear ducts face outwards, so she doesn't always see well) so she can't always find it when she is given a snack.

Do I refuse to keep her around because without human intervention she'd be helpless and likely starve to death or worse???? NO. As someone else pointed out, so long as they can strike and feed, there is no reason a Spider should be culled.

On that note, I believe I might name my future Spider Weeble. Because Weeble will wobble. ;)

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there is a difference between an animal having a handicap and breeding animals that have known handicaps. IE breeding an animal you know will produce said handicap. IMO it is unethical to breed animals that will have a known handicap. I know I have the unpopular opinion but I wouldnt do it for a dog or cat and I wouldnt do it in snakes.
BTW I dont plan on breeding, no interest and not enough knowledge.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

You really don't see her wobble? She's wobbling as soon as she releases the ASF. The twisting of her body before she released it is also very typical of the spider wobble/spin behavior as well. In some spiders it can be so subtle, that unless you know what you're looking for (or want to convince yourself that yours doesn't wobble) you won't see it.

I think that you're going to be very disappointed if you truly believe that the wobble can be bred out of the spider. Even the most "stable" spider can throw trainwreck babies. It's not about breeders out to make a quick buck - especially with the price of spiders today, there are many other morphs that can be worked with to "make a buck" with. Most people who keep and breed spiders do so because they love morph, even with its quirks.

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The slight "wobble" you see with this spider when she releases her prey is not unlike what I observe in normals when feeding or targeting. The spin she does is a typical releasing maneuver to get her teeth out of the prey so she can get it out of her mouth. But I'm not saying this spider is free of the defect. Quite the opposite in fact. I am saying that what I thought was a wobble-free spider does in fact have problems that I think are connected to the wobble defect.
I am not going to let the fear of disappointment keep me from trying to breed out the defect. I believe it is a worthwhile venture. I love the spider trait as much as anyone, but I sure would love it more without the defect! And you know what, if you could ask the snake, I think she would agree.

D :)

Consider this. Say I'm a giant alien lizard breeding humans. I like these really neat humans that have thick tongues and round faces. I think they look awfully cute. But unfortunately, this "morph" of human has negative traits associated with it. They have speech problems, poor cognitive function,... they have social problems- other members of the human "herd" tend to avoid specimens with the thick tongues. But oh well, nevermind that. I think they look cute, so I will breed more of them. (Can anyone guess the "morph" I'm referring to?)
So tell me,... do you think humans with this genetic defect should be intentionally selectively bred to make more humans with 'cute' thick tongues?

I think trying to breed it out or attempt to minimalize it isn't a bad thing at all. :gj:


Something to consider though would be that comparing a snake to a human/dog/cat/etc isn't a very good example considering that snakes are far simpler in nature and they have fewer functions they must be able to preform (particularily in captivity).


I would love it if spiders didn't wobble, but I feel that it is seldom if at all a detriment.

Love them, hate them. We could debate this forever :P

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Originally Posted by Delilah

Consider this. Say I'm a giant alien lizard breeding humans. I like these really neat humans that have thick tongues and round faces. I think they look awfully cute. But unfortunately, this "morph" of human has negative traits associated with it. They have speech problems, poor cognitive function,... they have social problems- other members of the human "herd" tend to avoid specimens with the thick tongues. But oh well, nevermind that. I think they look cute, so I will breed more of them. (Can anyone guess the "morph" I'm referring to?)
So tell me,... do you think humans with this genetic defect should be intentionally selectively bred to make more humans with 'cute' thick tongues?

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This is exactly how I feel about this... Say snakes are simple all day long, but having barely limited to severely limited control over their movements can't be a good time for anything.

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Originally Posted by Heathertoft

I'd like to add my two cents.

I love the look of the Spider morph. SO so pretty. I want my own Spider Mojave someday...maybe a Bumblebee or three...and I would die of sheer glee if I ever manage to aquire or breed a VPI axanthic Spider. OMG, SO MUCH GLEE.

I am not put off by the wobbling and still want a Spider because, honestly, this is not an animal that will have to worry about surviving in the cruel harsh real world wilderness. This will be a cherished pet as well as a breeding animal, and if I need to help it get ahold of it's prey, so be it. I highly doubt my lovable, stupid, BRAIN DAMAGED rescue-kitty could survive for more than two seconds outside the apartment, and more than once I've had to help her with food...her face is deformed (though she looks beautiful, she has mild entropion and her tear ducts face outwards, so she doesn't always see well) so she can't always find it when she is given a snack.

Do I refuse to keep her around because without human intervention she'd be helpless and likely starve to death or worse???? NO. As someone else pointed out, so long as they can strike and feed, there is no reason a Spider should be culled.

On that note, I believe I might name my future Spider Weeble. Because Weeble will wobble. ;)

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I don't believe a handicapped animal that can be cared for in captivity without excess suffering should be culled, however it doesn't mean they should be intentionally bred. You didnt have you sick kitty intentionally bred- and who would be that cruel? Well thats easy to answer...look at some dogs. Its a shame if snake breeding goes that way. If there are internal things associated with mutations that affect the animal, then we do not know so it isnt anyones fault....if they exist then they are obviously are not serious enough for the animal to be stressed or incapable of acting normal, or we would see...
You aren't rescuing a wobbling spider like you did your handcapped cat, because you are a paying customer, supporting its deliberate breeding.
Even though the wobbling is variable, I think the fact it can be so bad, and cant apparently be bred out, and breeding one with low expression of it to another doesnt seem to work either, it should be avoided on ethical grounds. Shame since it is so attractive, but there are TONS of other royal morphs. And havent we learned with dog breeds for instance? Do we want reptile breeding to go the same way? We look at show dog breeders who disregard inherited diseases with disgust, yet can hardely call ourselves better if we support stuff like this. It is concern over appearance over health, end of story. And I am saying that even though I like their looks...but will not own one or support their breeding now.

I mean people are actually finding their suffering 'cute.' Like a wheezing, sick bulldog that won't live more than a few years. How do you know how this animal feels inside? They can't express emotion. Their neurological problem could be distressing. If you care about the snakes themselves, think of it from their point of view. Do they know/care what they look like? No. I walk a bullmastiff who can't run or do very much, but he has the instinct to run and play just like any dogs and his selective bred, rediculous body stops him being himself. Yet people 'love' them. I think if the problem is serious enough we should be strong with ourselves and not allow ourselves to be selfish like this.

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Originally Posted by xscorpio

That's interesting actually. My spider does more of a corkscrewing act when he is exploring his tub but I'd never actually seen that kind of wobble. My spider does nothing at all like that. He may go topsy turvy and upside down but he's always smooth. And when its feeding time, he's all business, no corkscrewing.


Thanks for sharing.

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My spiders don't have any corkscrewing or wobble

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Originally Posted by starrlamia

and thats the reason I will never own a spider or spider morph, as much as I think they are gorgeous, I cant justify perpetuating a morph with such an awful handicap.

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No wobbles here. I have a male and three of his offspring female hold-backs

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Originally Posted by nikevijo

That really is so sad. My spiders dont do that, hope it stays that way

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Not all spiders have a wobble.

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Originally Posted by Emilio

I only have one and have bred for two more, I've never seen anything close to that. To me thats a real bad wobble you can't judge them all on that video.;)

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I agree 100%

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Originally Posted by FrostFell

I had a little baby spider that had NO wobble no shake no vibe no screw no nothing. Now shes sold now so as maturity hits that might change, but there are at least some out there with NO sign at all

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Thank you.....No Sign At All:gj:

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Originally Posted by DesignerBP

yea my 09 female has not the slightest bit of a wobble-not even when feeding shes completely clear of wobbles. cant wait to see how her offspring come out this summer if all falls through!

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Completely clear of wobbles....thank you:gj:

Saying all spiders wobble is like saying all caramels have kinks...it's just not so

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Originally Posted by Skyespirit86

I don't believe a handicapped animal that can be cared for in captivity without excess suffering should be culled, however it doesn't mean they should be intentionally bred. You didnt have you sick kitty intentionally bred- and who would be that cruel? Well thats easy to answer...look at some dogs. Its a shame if snake breeding goes that way. If there are internal things associated with mutations that affect the animal, then we do not know so it isnt anyones fault....if they exist then they are obviously are not serious enough for the animal to be stressed or incapable of acting normal, or we would see...
You aren't rescuing a wobbling spider like you did your handcapped cat, because you are a paying customer, supporting its deliberate breeding.
Even though the wobbling is variable, I think the fact it can be so bad, and cant apparently be bred out, and breeding one with low expression of it to another doesnt seem to work either, it should be avoided on ethical grounds. Shame since it is so attractive, but there are TONS of other royal morphs. And havent we learned with dog breeds for instance? Do we want reptile breeding to go the same way? We look at show dog breeders who disregard inherited diseases with disgust, yet can hardely call ourselves better if we support stuff like this. It is concern over appearance over health, end of story. And I am saying that even though I like their looks...but will not own one or support their breeding now.

I mean people are actually finding their suffering 'cute.' Like a wheezing, sick bulldog that won't live more than a few years. How do you know how this animal feels inside? They can't express emotion. Their neurological problem could be distressing. If you care about the snakes themselves, think of it from their point of view. Do they know/care what they look like? No. I walk a bullmastiff who can't run or do very much, but he has the instinct to run and play just like any dogs and his selective bred, rediculous body stops him being himself. Yet people 'love' them. I think if the problem is serious enough we should be strong with ourselves and not allow ourselves to be selfish like this.

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And how do you know that they are suffering? You said yourself, how do you know how the animal feels inside? A stressed animal does not eat, a stressed animal over time has a depressed immunity brought on by the stress. A stressed animal won't breed. Yet spiders all over the country are growing, thriving, breeding. They doesn't seem like suffering to me.

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Originally Posted by Delilah

The slight "wobble" you see with this spider when she releases her prey is not unlike what I observe in normals when feeding or targeting. The spin she does is a typical releasing maneuver to get her teeth out of the prey so she can get it out of her mouth. But I'm not saying this spider is free of the defect. Quite the opposite in fact. I am saying that what I thought was a wobble-free spider does in fact have problems that I think are connected to the wobble defect.
I am not going to let the fear of disappointment keep me from trying to breed out the defect. I believe it is a worthwhile venture. I love the spider trait as much as anyone, but I sure would love it more without the defect! And you know what, if you could ask the snake, I think she would agree.

D :)

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I sincerely wish you well in your drive to do so. Many hundreds of breeders over the past 11 years have also had the same ambition as you do. So far, in eleven years, all spiders still wobble. Any breeder worth their salt wouldn't tell you otherwise just to sell a snake.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

And how do you know that they are suffering? You said yourself, how do you know how the animal feels inside? A stressed animal does not eat, a stressed animal over time has a depressed immunity brought on by the stress. A stressed animal won't breed. Yet spiders all over the country are growing, thriving, breeding. They doesn't seem like suffering to me.

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Another example- Dwarfism does not stop humans from eating or breeding, but it is sure a daily struggle to survive. I don't think that many little people if given a choice would choose constant joint and back pain and limited flexibility over having normal healthy bodies. Now if you ask a little person if they suffer, they might say no. But ask them if they want to be little, if they enjoy joint surgery, if it's fun living in a world where nothing is your size,... I don't think the answer would be "oh yeah, I'm lovin' it." The survival instinct is very strong. It takes a lot of suffering to overcome that drive. Just because an animal (or human) eats and breeds does not mean it is happy. It only means survival requirements are adequate. Again using humans as an example- Put a naked male and female human in a cage on display in a park... how likely are they to breed? Give them a "hide box" and breeding chances greatly improve. But how happy will they be?
Now to be fair and considering that reptiles are "simple" creatures... let's put it like this- say you're a snake. You have a strong instinct to strike the heat signature of a mouse. (we'll use a live mouse as an example) But you are a spider ball python and you have a handicap. You can't quite make out the heat signature of the mouse- you're partially heat-blind. (maybe) You strike at what you think is a meal, you miss and hit your nose on something very hard and it jars your whole neck. You shake it off for a few seconds. You raise up to strike. You try desperately to hold still, but your neck just wobbles. The mouse sees you moving and runs away. You try to track it, but you can't quite make out where it went. You hear it (feel vibrations) and try to target it again. But you lose your bearings on which way is up. You spend the next 2 minutes twirling your head, trying to find your balance. You feel dizzy and disoriented. "Where did that mouse go! I'm hungry! Oh, if I could just find that mouse! I know it's here somewhere!" you scream in frustration to yourself. You finally get lucky and hit that mouse and kill it. Now you can't find the head! You're so very hungry, but you can't get your prey into your mouth to swallow it.
Oh yeah, that's a happy snake.

I really think you should have just stuck to "I want to breed out the wobble defect." Comparing spiders to little people is pretty deplorable in my opinion. I mean I know you meant no offense, but c'mon, have a little more sense than that. We all face our own struggles day to day, from one thing or another. A little person can lead a happier life than an averagely proportioned person, and vice versa. I really wouldn't bring human examples into this, it's irrelevant and inappropriate. Humans "breeding" in a cage is different on a whole spectrum of different emotional and spiritual ways than snakes breeding in a rack. Both of these are pretty horrible examples to use in my opinion, and both really weaken your original mission statement and argument. Anywho, just had to say something to these regards.

Cheers,
-Matt

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Originally Posted by Matt K

I really think you should have just stuck to "I want to breed out the wobble defect." Comparing spiders to little people is pretty deplorable in my opinion. I mean I know you meant no offense, but c'mon, have a little more sense than that. We all face our own struggles day to day, from one thing or another. A little person can lead a happier life than an averagely proportioned person, and vice versa. I really wouldn't bring human examples into this, it's irrelevant and inappropriate. Humans "breeding" in a cage is different in a whole spectrum of different emotional and spiritual ways than snakes breeding in a rack. Both of these are pretty horrible examples to use in my opinion, and both really weaken your original mission statement and argument. Anywho, just had to say something in these regards.

Cheers,
-Matt

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I do not mean to offend anyone. I use human examples so that humans can relate. And certainly I am not meaning these examples literally. Just as illustrations.

It wasn't a silly comparison, it helped illustrate a very valid point, and i understood it completely. Go Delilah!

:salute:

So then on the human front, since dwarfism is apparently so bad (as referenced to the horrible wobbles), should all dwarfs be culled at birth and they not allowed to breed?

Some people would also not like to be fat, but some thing you just cannot help. Everyone and everything is not perfect, nor can we make it perfect without genetic engineering.

The spider has a simple neurological issue, as far as we know. They still live and thrive. And obviously the one that was imported was doing just fine in the wild, so as far as I am concerned I see no harm in furthering this abomination you call the spider morph.

I fear the day some of you have children, because if and god willing it doesnt happen, but if they have a birth defect or downs syndrome what would cross your mind....

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

So then on the human front, since dwarfism is apparently so bad (as referenced to the horrible wobbles), should all dwarfs be culled at birth and they not allowed to breed?

Some people would also not like to be fat, but some thing you just cannot help. Everyone and everything is not perfect, nor can we make it perfect without genetic engineering.

The spider has a simple neurological issue, as far as we know. They still live and thrive. And obviously the one that was imported was doing just fine in the wild, so as far as I am concerned I see no harm in furthering this abomination you call the spider morph.

I fear the day some of you have children, because if and god willing it doesnt happen, but if they have a birth defect or downs syndrome what would cross your mind....

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If I had a child born with a defect, I would probably wish my child did not have a defect. ...The tendency to be overweight is both genetic and environmental and can in many cases be controlled..... A 'simple' neurological defect?-- like cerebral palsy? ...
As for whether or not Little People should be "culled" or "allowed to breed" is A. Ridiculous B. not my personal business as it is between whatever couple and their Maker since we are referring to humans in that example, and C. My words are being exaggerated and bent like a Spider Ball's Neck! Come on! Thank you to all of you who understand what I am trying to say. I think the overall opinion of everyone here is not to kill any well functioning spider, nor to cull out the morph altogether, but to be more SELECTIVE in our breeding of this morph so that we can lessen, reduce, improve, and eventually eliminate this defect.

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Originally Posted by Delilah

If I had a child born with a defect, I would probably wish my child did not have a defect. ...The tendency to be overweight is both genetic and environmental and can in many cases be controlled..... A 'simple' neurological defect?-- like cerebral palsy? ...
As for whether or not Little People should be "culled" or "allowed to breed" is A. Ridiculous B. not my personal business as it is between whatever couple and their Maker since we are referring to humans in that example, and C. My words are being exaggerated and bent like a Spider Ball's Neck! Come on! Thank you to all of you who understand what I am trying to say. I think the overall opinion of everyone here is not to kill any well functioning spider, nor to cull out the morph altogether, but to be more SELECTIVE in our breeding of this morph so that we can lessen, reduce, improve, and eventually eliminate this defect.

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I'm interested in exactly how YOU propose selectively breeding the wobble out of the spider? Take my four spiders, all with barely detectable wobbles (much less than the one in your video when they eat). Spider male is being bred to a non-wobbling normal female this year. The females will be bred to non-wobbling other morphs.

Spiders are one of THE MOST outcrossed animals to non-wobbling normals, and yet, every single spider produced wobbles - from barely detectible to trainwreck - often with every degree being displayed in the same clutch.

Yes, it's quite a lofty goal to have, but surely you don't think that you're the only person in the past ELEVEN years who's ever attempted it and come to the same conclusion? That conclusion being - spiders wobble - the degree of wobble that is produced is not dependent on the degree of wobble of the parent.

I wish you all the luck, but your spider wobbles, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, it wobbled throughout the video. Your spider will pass that on to any spider offspring as do ALL spiders.

We're not just saying it to be argumentative with you, honestly. But it's going to take you breeding them yourself to come to the same conclusion that well respected breeders in our industry have already come to. All spiders spin/wobble.

Okay, I'm not gonna quote folk as there's too much to quote, but correct me if I'm wrong...to the people comparing Spiders to "People Morphs," aren't humans...mmm, a SOCIAL MAMMAL as opposed to a moderatly solitary REPTILE???

I am not worried about one snake making fun of or shunning another for their odd wobble. ;)

Also...do you really think that if snakes did magically grow social mammilian tendencies, that they'd READILY ACCEPT snow-white leucistics or glaring yellow Albino Pinstripes or any of the really outlandish morphs? The Spider's little wobble would be like spitting in the ocean. ;)

I agree, comparing snakes to people who have human dwarfism is kindof horrible and a little offensive. I also have seen and read some interesting things from a societal point of view...how some little people actually enjoy being different and how many choose partners who have the same genetic different-ness. Heck, there was even a CSI episode featuring a convention for 'em! :)

If the wobble were negatively affecting their quality of life, it'd be different, but until I find a Spider who seems unhappy I'm gonna continue to appreciate this beautiful, quirky morph.

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Originally Posted by Heathertoft

Okay, I'm not gonna quote folk as there's too much to quote, but correct me if I'm wrong...to the people comparing Spiders to "People Morphs," aren't humans...mmm, a SOCIAL MAMMAL as opposed to a moderatly solitary REPTILE???

I am not worried about one snake making fun of or shunning another for their odd wobble. ;)

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I didn't notice anyone worrying about how other snakes would make fun of spiders, but rather that getting around as they do makes their life harder.

What is hard for them (like striking, simply going in a straight line, etc), other snakes can do easily. The survival and breeding instincts are still there and the mutation does not get in the way of that in a captive setting, but when the brain tells their body to go in a straight line and they aren't getting the correct response, it is likely on some level stressful.

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Originally Posted by Delilah

I do not mean to offend anyone. I use human examples so that humans can relate. And certainly I am not meaning these examples literally. Just as illustrations.

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I know you didn't mean to offend anyone, and to be honest I wasn't much offended by your metaphors. But, illustrations or not, the correlation is still weak in my opinion--apples and oranges. I'm not at all against anyone trying to breed out the Spider-wobble, so I hope you're not taking it that way. I really don't like how this is heading in a "good-guy/bad-guy" direction. You're not a hero for trying to defend your goal, and others are not villains for questioning it. Other breeders have of course tried, and failed at the same goal. It wasn't out of complete irresponsibility or lack of effort that Spiders ended up with wobble. The original import had it, was bred, some of the offspring had bad wobble, others barely had any. If speculation doesn't kill me here, I'd imagine the ones with little wobble were bred to normals, and some of the offspring had little wobble, others had bad wobble--those with less were bred to normal females, some of the offspring had little wobble, others had bad wobble, and so on. You make some of us out to be heartless people for not giving it a shot ourselves, or questioning if you completely understand the issue. We're standing on the shoulders of other more experienced, reputable, and privileged breeders here, and no one is anymore happy with the wobble than you are. If you have the time, resources, and wherewithal to dedicate your Ball Python hobby specifically to trying to prove that the wobble can be line bred out, no one is going to be against you. All those that are not jumping behind you are saying is that it has been tried before, by people with more time, resources, and wherewithal than most of us have, and the conclusion was it couldn't be line bred out. Again, you're not a hero for trying it, no one is a villain for not stressing over it and relying on the experience of reputable people. Likewise, you're not a villain for getting behind the cause, and no one here thinks you are. No one likes to feel belittled though, especially those with a great deal more experience in the hobby than yourself, and a little humility is always a strong attribute for all of us to carry with us. Anywho, again, I wish you the best of luck, I really do. If you somehow make a miracle happen, I will be the first in line to thank you.

Cheers,
-Matt

i wasn't to sure how bad there wobble was until i saw these vids, i will definately own one in the future, extreme wobble or not those snakes all looked awesome,healthy and happy to me, which i think is the most important aspect of owning any herps "defected" or "flawless" i lovem all and if i had the space would keep them too!:)

Staying out of the debate, but my 1200g male spider doesn't do anything like that at any time, even feeding. It appears that he goes exactly the way his brain tells him to, however he's not perfect. His head does vibrate at random times, not all the time and not always at feeding. I always thought this was what was being refered to as the spider wobble. I guess it's just different degrees in different snakes, as was stated earlier.

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Originally Posted by Delilah

This is a video I just posted. Seems this is a good place to link it.
"This is my "wobble-less" spider girl. I have never seen her wobble, but after close observation, ... she does have problems. Take this video for example. Every snake has a bad day, especially young snakes- but this is an adult. This is not the first time this has happened to her. (Though I don't recall her ever giving up before) She tries to eat her rat from the wrong end, can't seem to find the head at all, then seems to lose it altogether. After this video she gave up and would not even strike at a fresh meal. This problem has also been observed in my bumblebees (pastel spider).
I know these problems could be bred out if breeders would take an interest in breeding only the best, strongest and healthiest snakes and STOP breeding the deformed and retarded just to make a quick buck...."

YouTube - The Bambi Project

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I have a normal with some subtle white that may be spider. This video of yours is exactly how my normal eats. She is a sweetheart and wouldn't give her up. I only have her 2 months and she is my 1st snake. My son & I watch her eat and we commented its like she is retarded or stupid. Sometimes takes her 3 hours to down a meal and I feel bad she has to work so hard at it. At least I know it is not unheard of for a snake to eat like this.

I know the premise is that all spiders wobble, but I have two and i have one that corkscrews, but I also have a pastel and YB that do the same thing, and ALL my snakes get shaky at feeding time... but naturally I notice it more in my spiders, because they are spiders.

My second girl has zero wobble.

bruce

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

I know the premise is that all spiders wobble, but I have two and i have one that corkscrews, but I also have a pastel and YB that do the same thing, and ALL my snakes get shaky at feeding time... but naturally I notice it more in my spiders, because they are spiders.

My second girl has zero wobble.

bruce

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I have never seen pastels or YB's with wobbles-is it possible that they may have some spider in there somewhere or are we starting to get inbreeding problems? The wobble is the reason why I will never buy a spider and would certainly never want to breed one.

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Originally Posted by Delilah

The slight "wobble" you see with this spider when she releases her prey is not unlike what I observe in normals when feeding or targeting. The spin she does is a typical releasing maneuver to get her teeth out of the prey so she can get it out of her mouth. But I'm not saying this spider is free of the defect. Quite the opposite in fact. I am saying that what I thought was a wobble-free spider does in fact have problems that I think are connected to the wobble defect.
I am not going to let the fear of disappointment keep me from trying to breed out the defect. I believe it is a worthwhile venture. I love the spider trait as much as anyone, but I sure would love it more without the defect! And you know what, if you could ask the snake, I think she would agree.

D :)

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I've already seen it said a dozen times on this and countless other forums by people with more knowledge about these animals and genetics in general, than I could ever hope to have so I'll say this. In short, you will not breed the defect out of the morph. It is attached to the spider gene.

This morph is one of the most OUT bred morphs there is, because of the awesome/beautiful combinations it produces. Those outb red combinations STILL contain the wobble. There is NO WAY to breed the wobble out. again, it is genetically attached to the spider morph no matter what you do.

The wobble is NO reason to stop breeding this animal to either produce more spiders or other genetic combinations because so far as I've seen and read in my research on these animals this "defect" is very rarely drastic enough to disable them from eating or living in general comfort.

I've got a spider, he wobbles. He doesn't corkscrew or have any tendency to turn himself upside down, etc.. but his wobble is super noticeable when he gets excited about feeding and he has only EVER missed the first strike once since I got him at 90 days old.

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Originally Posted by shaunb79

I guess its just me but that is the reason I will never have a Spider in my collection!:confused:

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That makes two of us. I just get a "wrong" feeling when I watch that.

Is this essentially a sign of mental/physical retardation?

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Originally Posted by BigBlue56

That makes two of us. I just get a "wrong" feeling when I watch that.

Is this essentially a sign of mental/physical retardation?

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Far from that. It is simply a neurological issue that the cause of has yet to be pin-pointed. It only very rarely has an affect on the animal that inhibits them in every day living in the care of responsible owners. I have a spider, he wobbles a bit but not to a staggering degree. It has no ill affect on his ability to strike, kill and eat.

My male spider wobbles--not as badly as the one in the vid, but he gets himself into some strange positions, and often misses his first strike at prey. He gamely turns right around and tries again, and generally hits it on the second attempt.
He's a great eater.

He was bred, and his offspring have run the spectrum from no noticeable wobble to a wobble about as bad as his. I suspect that extreme wobbling is actually relatively uncommon.

I have never seen any sign that he is distressed by his apparent inability to reliably tell which direction is up. He eats well, breeds well, and behaves in all other respects normally.

Unlike mammals, reptiles don't just carry on with eating and reproduction when something is wrong.

My smaller spider male has just started showing signs of a wobble and he is 3 years old. Ironically it was shortly after he took his very first F/T rat after only accepting live prey. Coincidence? I may never know lol.