Spider wobble in full effect

[rabernet]

I don't believe a handicapped animal that can be cared for in captivity without excess suffering should be culled, however it doesn't mean they should be intentionally bred. You didnt have you sick kitty intentionally bred- and who would be that cruel? Well thats easy to answer...look at some dogs. Its a shame if snake breeding goes that way. If there are internal things associated with mutations that affect the animal, then we do not know so it isnt anyones fault....if they exist then they are obviously are not serious enough for the animal to be stressed or incapable of acting normal, or we would see...
You aren't rescuing a wobbling spider like you did your handcapped cat, because you are a paying customer, supporting its deliberate breeding.
Even though the wobbling is variable, I think the fact it can be so bad, and cant apparently be bred out, and breeding one with low expression of it to another doesnt seem to work either, it should be avoided on ethical grounds. Shame since it is so attractive, but there are TONS of other royal morphs. And havent we learned with dog breeds for instance? Do we want reptile breeding to go the same way? We look at show dog breeders who disregard inherited diseases with disgust, yet can hardely call ourselves better if we support stuff like this. It is concern over appearance over health, end of story. And I am saying that even though I like their looks...but will not own one or support their breeding now.

I mean people are actually finding their suffering 'cute.' Like a wheezing, sick bulldog that won't live more than a few years. How do you know how this animal feels inside? They can't express emotion. Their neurological problem could be distressing. If you care about the snakes themselves, think of it from their point of view. Do they know/care what they look like? No. I walk a bullmastiff who can't run or do very much, but he has the instinct to run and play just like any dogs and his selective bred, rediculous body stops him being himself. Yet people 'love' them. I think if the problem is serious enough we should be strong with ourselves and not allow ourselves to be selfish like this.

And how do you know that they are suffering? You said yourself, how do you know how the animal feels inside? A stressed animal does not eat, a stressed animal over time has a depressed immunity brought on by the stress. A stressed animal won't breed. Yet spiders all over the country are growing, thriving, breeding. They doesn't seem like suffering to me.

[rabernet]

The slight "wobble" you see with this spider when she releases her prey is not unlike what I observe in normals when feeding or targeting. The spin she does is a typical releasing maneuver to get her teeth out of the prey so she can get it out of her mouth. But I'm not saying this spider is free of the defect. Quite the opposite in fact. I am saying that what I thought was a wobble-free spider does in fact have problems that I think are connected to the wobble defect.
I am not going to let the fear of disappointment keep me from trying to breed out the defect. I believe it is a worthwhile venture. I love the spider trait as much as anyone, but I sure would love it more without the defect! And you know what, if you could ask the snake, I think she would agree.

D

I sincerely wish you well in your drive to do so. Many hundreds of breeders over the past 11 years have also had the same ambition as you do. So far, in eleven years, all spiders still wobble. Any breeder worth their salt wouldn't tell you otherwise just to sell a snake.

[Delilah]

And how do you know that they are suffering? You said yourself, how do you know how the animal feels inside? A stressed animal does not eat, a stressed animal over time has a depressed immunity brought on by the stress. A stressed animal won't breed. Yet spiders all over the country are growing, thriving, breeding. They doesn't seem like suffering to me.

Another example- Dwarfism does not stop humans from eating or breeding, but it is sure a daily struggle to survive. I don't think that many little people if given a choice would choose constant joint and back pain and limited flexibility over having normal healthy bodies. Now if you ask a little person if they suffer, they might say no. But ask them if they want to be little, if they enjoy joint surgery, if it's fun living in a world where nothing is your size,... I don't think the answer would be "oh yeah, I'm lovin' it." The survival instinct is very strong. It takes a lot of suffering to overcome that drive. Just because an animal (or human) eats and breeds does not mean it is happy. It only means survival requirements are adequate. Again using humans as an example- Put a naked male and female human in a cage on display in a park... how likely are they to breed? Give them a "hide box" and breeding chances greatly improve. But how happy will they be?
Now to be fair and considering that reptiles are "simple" creatures... let's put it like this- say you're a snake. You have a strong instinct to strike the heat signature of a mouse. (we'll use a live mouse as an example) But you are a spider ball python and you have a handicap. You can't quite make out the heat signature of the mouse- you're partially heat-blind. (maybe) You strike at what you think is a meal, you miss and hit your nose on something very hard and it jars your whole neck. You shake it off for a few seconds. You raise up to strike. You try desperately to hold still, but your neck just wobbles. The mouse sees you moving and runs away. You try to track it, but you can't quite make out where it went. You hear it (feel vibrations) and try to target it again. But you lose your bearings on which way is up. You spend the next 2 minutes twirling your head, trying to find your balance. You feel dizzy and disoriented. "Where did that mouse go! I'm hungry! Oh, if I could just find that mouse! I know it's here somewhere!" you scream in frustration to yourself. You finally get lucky and hit that mouse and kill it. Now you can't find the head! You're so very hungry, but you can't get your prey into your mouth to swallow it.
Oh yeah, that's a happy snake.

[Matt K]

I really think you should have just stuck to "I want to breed out the wobble defect." Comparing spiders to little people is pretty deplorable in my opinion. I mean I know you meant no offense, but c'mon, have a little more sense than that. We all face our own struggles day to day, from one thing or another. A little person can lead a happier life than an averagely proportioned person, and vice versa. I really wouldn't bring human examples into this, it's irrelevant and inappropriate. Humans "breeding" in a cage is different on a whole spectrum of different emotional and spiritual ways than snakes breeding in a rack. Both of these are pretty horrible examples to use in my opinion, and both really weaken your original mission statement and argument. Anywho, just had to say something to these regards.

Cheers,
-Matt

[Delilah]

I really think you should have just stuck to "I want to breed out the wobble defect." Comparing spiders to little people is pretty deplorable in my opinion. I mean I know you meant no offense, but c'mon, have a little more sense than that. We all face our own struggles day to day, from one thing or another. A little person can lead a happier life than an averagely proportioned person, and vice versa. I really wouldn't bring human examples into this, it's irrelevant and inappropriate. Humans "breeding" in a cage is different in a whole spectrum of different emotional and spiritual ways than snakes breeding in a rack. Both of these are pretty horrible examples to use in my opinion, and both really weaken your original mission statement and argument. Anywho, just had to say something in these regards.

Cheers,
-Matt

I do not mean to offend anyone. I use human examples so that humans can relate. And certainly I am not meaning these examples literally. Just as illustrations.

[Skyespirit86]

It wasn't a silly comparison, it helped illustrate a very valid point, and i understood it completely. Go Delilah!

[Turbo Serpent]

So then on the human front, since dwarfism is apparently so bad (as referenced to the horrible wobbles), should all dwarfs be culled at birth and they not allowed to breed?

Some people would also not like to be fat, but some thing you just cannot help. Everyone and everything is not perfect, nor can we make it perfect without genetic engineering.

The spider has a simple neurological issue, as far as we know. They still live and thrive. And obviously the one that was imported was doing just fine in the wild, so as far as I am concerned I see no harm in furthering this abomination you call the spider morph.

I fear the day some of you have children, because if and god willing it doesnt happen, but if they have a birth defect or downs syndrome what would cross your mind....

[Delilah]

So then on the human front, since dwarfism is apparently so bad (as referenced to the horrible wobbles), should all dwarfs be culled at birth and they not allowed to breed?

Some people would also not like to be fat, but some thing you just cannot help. Everyone and everything is not perfect, nor can we make it perfect without genetic engineering.

The spider has a simple neurological issue, as far as we know. They still live and thrive. And obviously the one that was imported was doing just fine in the wild, so as far as I am concerned I see no harm in furthering this abomination you call the spider morph.

I fear the day some of you have children, because if and god willing it doesnt happen, but if they have a birth defect or downs syndrome what would cross your mind....

If I had a child born with a defect, I would probably wish my child did not have a defect. ...The tendency to be overweight is both genetic and environmental and can in many cases be controlled..... A 'simple' neurological defect?-- like cerebral palsy? ...
As for whether or not Little People should be "culled" or "allowed to breed" is A. Ridiculous B. not my personal business as it is between whatever couple and their Maker since we are referring to humans in that example, and C. My words are being exaggerated and bent like a Spider Ball's Neck! Come on! Thank you to all of you who understand what I am trying to say. I think the overall opinion of everyone here is not to kill any well functioning spider, nor to cull out the morph altogether, but to be more SELECTIVE in our breeding of this morph so that we can lessen, reduce, improve, and eventually eliminate this defect.

[rabernet]

If I had a child born with a defect, I would probably wish my child did not have a defect. ...The tendency to be overweight is both genetic and environmental and can in many cases be controlled..... A 'simple' neurological defect?-- like cerebral palsy? ...
As for whether or not Little People should be "culled" or "allowed to breed" is A. Ridiculous B. not my personal business as it is between whatever couple and their Maker since we are referring to humans in that example, and C. My words are being exaggerated and bent like a Spider Ball's Neck! Come on! Thank you to all of you who understand what I am trying to say. I think the overall opinion of everyone here is not to kill any well functioning spider, nor to cull out the morph altogether, but to be more SELECTIVE in our breeding of this morph so that we can lessen, reduce, improve, and eventually eliminate this defect.

I'm interested in exactly how YOU propose selectively breeding the wobble out of the spider? Take my four spiders, all with barely detectable wobbles (much less than the one in your video when they eat). Spider male is being bred to a non-wobbling normal female this year. The females will be bred to non-wobbling other morphs.

Spiders are one of THE MOST outcrossed animals to non-wobbling normals, and yet, every single spider produced wobbles - from barely detectible to trainwreck - often with every degree being displayed in the same clutch.

Yes, it's quite a lofty goal to have, but surely you don't think that you're the only person in the past ELEVEN years who's ever attempted it and come to the same conclusion? That conclusion being - spiders wobble - the degree of wobble that is produced is not dependent on the degree of wobble of the parent.

I wish you all the luck, but your spider wobbles, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, it wobbled throughout the video. Your spider will pass that on to any spider offspring as do ALL spiders.

We're not just saying it to be argumentative with you, honestly. But it's going to take you breeding them yourself to come to the same conclusion that well respected breeders in our industry have already come to. All spiders spin/wobble.

[Kyle@theHeathertoft]

Okay, I'm not gonna quote folk as there's too much to quote, but correct me if I'm wrong...to the people comparing Spiders to "People Morphs," aren't humans...mmm, a SOCIAL MAMMAL as opposed to a moderatly solitary REPTILE???

I am not worried about one snake making fun of or shunning another for their odd wobble.

Also...do you really think that if snakes did magically grow social mammilian tendencies, that they'd READILY ACCEPT snow-white leucistics or glaring yellow Albino Pinstripes or any of the really outlandish morphs? The Spider's little wobble would be like spitting in the ocean.

I agree, comparing snakes to people who have human dwarfism is kindof horrible and a little offensive. I also have seen and read some interesting things from a societal point of view...how some little people actually enjoy being different and how many choose partners who have the same genetic different-ness. Heck, there was even a CSI episode featuring a convention for 'em!

If the wobble were negatively affecting their quality of life, it'd be different, but until I find a Spider who seems unhappy I'm gonna continue to appreciate this beautiful, quirky morph.