It seemed so wrong, but felt so right...

Im sorry but I found this post rather disturbing. Telling people how you crush these mice seems very cold. I have a couple live feeders and I feel bad about the mouse squeeling becuase I have it held by tongs. But if I dont hold it that way the snake could miss and get me. I couldnt put it through the pain of crushing its feet and face. If you are worried you can just stun them. Im sure thats less painful then having your feet crushed one by one.
I agree that f/t is better but thats personal choice, if one must feed live at least treat the mouse humanely.

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

Amen!!!!!!!! I am in 100% agreement. Live rodents can and will harm snakes if they are unattended.

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Key word: Unattended- But you didn't leave them unattended.
But anyway my guys have been eating f/t from when they were babys, and they still have a EXTREMELY strong feeding response how do i do this you ask? Well after the snake strikes and is constricting the dead rodent i tug on its tail and feet to simulate resistance, and use the BACK of the foot, not the part with nails to kick gently at the snake. Actually i was trying to prove this point to my brother last week- fed one live, one f/t... Presented room, got the SAME response. To the op- go back to ft, try this and i guarantee with doing this and making the rat 'dance' by grabbing it by the surf of the neck and making it move, you will still have aggressive feeders, with the safety of f/t. It is safer for the snakes and i think what you did (if if ever did that to a living creature i would keep it to myself not boast about it) was unnecessary and cruel. Trust me if its attended , then your snakes will not get hurt and there are other methods that cause a lot less pain to the rodent that can be used. There are lots of people on youtube that cause the rodent extra suffering, and its a living thing needed to be treated with respect, and we dont need more. I understand that you were worried and it was your first time, but Please, for the rodents sake dont let it happen again.
Well that was the longest post i ever mad on this forum... hope it was worth it.

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Originally Posted by kryptonian

im sorry but i found this post rather disturbing. Telling people how you crush these mice seems very cold. I have a couple live feeders and i feel bad about the mouse squeeling becuase i have it held by tongs. But if i dont hold it that way the snake could miss and get me. I couldnt put it through the pain of crushing its feet and face. If you are worried you can just stun them. Im sure thats less painful then having your feet crushed one by one.
I agree that f/t is better but thats personal choice, if one must feed live at least treat the mouse humanely.

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x2

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Originally Posted by rabernet

... I just think you were especially nervous and probably participated more than was necessary. :)

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Agree!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

For what it's worth, I only feed f/t to my kingsnakes. All my ball pythons (50+) are fed live. In over 4000 live feedings, I've never intervened with the prey and my snakes - from hatchlings taking their first meal to adults. Claws on the rat aren't going to harm your snake. I've had probably 5 minor nicks from teeth in over 4000 feedings that you had to really look for.

Both of your kiddos probably would have been just fine without any intervention on your part, especially since you pre-scented and got them primed to feed.

I have no issues with you feeding live, since that's what I do. I just think you were especially nervous and probably participated more than was necessary. :)

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Well said!!

I would like to add please don't be delusional about how the snakes kill the rodents. It is NOT a gental painless thing.....at least not with mine. They don't just "instantly" suffocate them and the mouse doesn't feel any pain.

Also I wonder how some of the companies that you buy these Frozen mice and rats kill them. Do you really think they all use CO2...really??

I am not trying to start any fights..just pointing out some of the things that are obvious to me. I really think ok ok ok already...geez can you kick cho cho some more.:tears: For the love of god...it was his first time and he panicked. We have all ...EACH of us in our life did things that we are not proud of. I am sure YOU ALL are not without making mistakes. He did the only thing he could think of to protect his snakes. And BPnet is one of the best most supportive websites I have been on. Can ya all just put away your mouse claws stop yelling at him and maybe someone teach him what to do next time. Good grief

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

There are clearly better ways, I know now, but the better part of me still feels a sense of relief that my snakes were unharmed. I share the opinion that these rodents should be treated with respect, but unfortunately the impassioned response by some members is not going to change my view that my animal’s safety are of paramount importance to me.

Apparently to some members, I am a cruel, violent, MS that maims and tortures the innocently befallen rodents that stray my path…..

Oh well, can't peoples mind about that.

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Do not take my posts for more than what they are, just my opinion on how the posted situation occured. I do not think your cruel or violent etc. I'm just glad that you realize that there are better ways. Thats what these forums are for. :D

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

Also I wonder how some of the companies that you buy these Frozen mice and rats kill them. Do you really think they all use CO2...really??

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What other method do you think they use? I haven't heard of any other method.

Just Sticking them in the freezer

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Originally Posted by reptidude1

Just Sticking them in the freezer

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Ah yes. Where is my brain tonight.

I have heard of that. but I don't know if companies do that. Humane or not is a discussion for another (surely, already existing) thread :)

I think I can understand the desire to allow a snake to feed live even though it's established itself on f/t rodents just to satisfy a personal curiosity. However, I cannot wrap my head around how someone can deliberately crush heads and feet to prevent the possibility that a tooth or nail might mar the snake. To crush the skull or extremities of a still living, breathing animal in an attempt to calm it down? That's entirely cruel and inhumane. :(

I have no qualms about feeding live animals to snakes provided the feeding is supervised and the rodent is removed if the snake isn't interested. I prefer feeding freshly killed rodents to my own snakes because I don't like having a freezer full of rats and mice and I also don't want to risk a well-placed rat bite injuring or scarring any of my snakes. When I kill rodents, I believe it's relatively quick and painless for them. To mutilate or maim them prior to offering them to a snake only increases already heightened stress levels and then leaves them in far more pain than necessary and I honestly don't know how someone could bring themselves to doing that to a living animal whether it's intended to be eaten or not. I'll get off my soapbox now....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

I think I can understand the desire to allow a snake to feed live even though it's established itself on f/t rodents just to satisfy a personal curiosity. However, I cannot wrap my head around how someone can deliberately crush heads and feet to prevent the possibility that a tooth or nail might mar the snake. To crush the skull or extremities of a still living, breathing animal in an attempt to calm it down? That's entirely cruel and inhumane. :(

I have no qualms about feeding live animals to snakes provided the feeding is supervised and the rodent is removed if the snake isn't interested. I prefer feeding freshly killed rodents to my own snakes because I don't like having a freezer full of rats and mice and I also don't want to risk a well-placed rat bite injuring or scarring any of my snakes. When I kill rodents, I believe it's relatively quick and painless for them. To mutilate or maim them prior to offering them to a snake only increases already heightened stress levels and then leaves them in far more pain than necessary and I honestly don't know how someone could bring themselves to doing that to a living animal whether it's intended to be eaten or not. I'll get off my soapbox now....

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Did I say anywhere in my post that I harmed the rodent before offering it to the snake?
I did not do that. Let me check my original post...hold on...

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

...Muffin’s mouse was far worse however, I had to take my hemostats and crush his face to get him to calm down.

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Whoa! Why did that remind me of that movie Misery?

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Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

I think I can understand the desire to allow a snake to feed live even though it's established itself on f/t rodents just to satisfy a personal curiosity. However, I cannot wrap my head around how someone can deliberately crush heads and feet to prevent the possibility that a tooth or nail might mar the snake. To crush the skull or extremities of a still living, breathing animal in an attempt to calm it down? That's entirely cruel and inhumane. :(

I have no qualms about feeding live animals to snakes provided the feeding is supervised and the rodent is removed if the snake isn't interested. I prefer feeding freshly killed rodents to my own snakes because I don't like having a freezer full of rats and mice and I also don't want to risk a well-placed rat bite injuring or scarring any of my snakes. When I kill rodents, I believe it's relatively quick and painless for them. To mutilate or maim them prior to offering them to a snake only increases already heightened stress levels and then leaves them in far more pain than necessary and I honestly don't know how someone could bring themselves to doing that to a living animal whether it's intended to be eaten or not. I'll get off my soapbox now....

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Maybe people are thinking that I did this before these rodents were presented to the animals? I'm not sure but I think I have made it pretty clear that the rodents were under restraint from the snakes with the exception of their feet ,claws, etc. I stand firm by position on this issue but your soapbox is always welcome : )

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Originally Posted by Ludeboi

Whoa! Why did that remind me of that movie Misery?

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I know which scene too....

The fact that you crushed the rodents face and feet before feeding is absolutely awful. I feel that it was extremely inhumane and cruel. I dont completely disagree with live feeding, but the fact that you mamed the rodents and put them in extreme pain before the feeding is awful. If your going to do that to the rodent then feed F/T. Live feeding is natural but once you step in and mame the prey, its awful. Yes your looking out for your snake, but you can easily solve that by feeding F/T. Your snake doesnt benefit for eating live. The action of feeding live was purely for your own entertainment and benefit. You cruely tortured those rodents and to keep doing that action is dispicable. Switch to F/T. You were trying to look out for your snakes, but in the meantime you commited animal cruelty.

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Originally Posted by redstormlax12

The fact that you crushed the rodents face and feet before feeding is absolutely awful.

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I think you've misread...see below

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

Maybe people are thinking that I did this before these rodents were presented to the animals? I'm not sure but I think I have made it pretty clear that the rodents were under restraint from the snakes with the exception of their feet ,claws, etc. I stand firm by position on this issue but your soapbox is always welcome : )

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by reptidude1

Just Sticking them in the freezer

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Don't get me wrong....I do not condone that. Just not everyone and every company is on the up and up. Nor does every company have the animals best in mind.

Totally for another thread...agreed. But I don't think I can take anymore threads like this. Im starting to get snappy with the hubby....:colbert:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redstormlax12

The fact that you crushed the rodents face and feet before feeding is absolutely awful. I feel that it was extremely inhumane and cruel. I dont completely disagree with live feeding, but the fact that you mamed the rodents and put them in extreme pain before the feeding is awful. If your going to do that to the rodent then feed F/T. Live feeding is natural but once you step in and mame the prey, its awful. Yes your looking out for your snake, but you can easily solve that by feeding F/T. Your snake doesnt benefit for eating live. The action of feeding live was purely for your own entertainment and benefit. You cruely tortured those rodents and to keep doing that action is dispicable. Switch to F/T. You were trying to look out for your snakes, but in the meantime you commited animal cruelty.

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Before you start making accusations, you need to get your facts straight. You are making grossly incorrect statements, and are clearly uninformed as to the nature of my position. First of all, I at no time tortured any animals. I didn’t crush any rodents prior to feeding and responded to the rodents aggression only after they were under suppression from the snake – read the thread if you want to contribute to the discussion.

I will continue to feed live, and I will react appropriately (and humanely) if ever any rodent poses a threat to my animals, but they are the priority. If you have an intelligent argument for feeding F/T then that’s fine. I don’t need to justify my desire to feed live food. This is what I chose to do, and I will do so with or without the approval of anyone.

Furthermore, I don’t get any benefit from feeding live other than been fascinated because I had never done it before. Just to remind you, these rodents are going to die – they are going to be eaten. This is what happens in nature and it’s what happens every day to millions of animals across the planet. And guess what? Animals do cruel things to one another in nature, ever seen an episode of Animal Planet or National Geographic? Get it together. Read the whole thread in its entirety and respond once you can add something relative to the debate.

I have no idea why folks think that feeding live will make it more difficult to feed FT in the future.
I usually offer all of my breeders a live meal after they have been fasting for breeding or egg-laying. It stimulates their appetite more readily. After that, though, they go right back to FT without an issue.

I have had a few snakes turn finicky after they started breeding, but they began refusing FT on their own, and I only fed them live as a last resort--once I did they continued to refuse FT, and remain picky eaters. Sometimes happens with breeder males.

In most cases, the occasional live meal does absolutely nothing in terms of conditioning a snake not to want FT. They'll most likely take FT next week without an issue.

It's not necessary to damage the rodent's claws to prevent it from scratching. At rat's nails can't penetrate a snake's scales. It's only cruel to hurt them in that fashion.

I do understand your desire to protect your snake, but there is no reason to be unnecessarily cruel to the feeder rodents. Hurting a conscious animal without any anaesthetic is terribly cruel--can you honestly imagine the pain of having your feet and face crushed in metal tongs? Pre-kill the rodents if you feel the need to protect your snake. Served up still twitching in reflex, they will be just as fascinated by a freshly dead rodent as they are by a live one.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I have no idea why folks think that feeding live will make it more difficult to feed FT in the future.
I usually offer all of my breeders a live meal after they have been fasting for breeding or egg-laying. It stimulates their appetite more readily. After that, though, they go right back to FT without an issue.

I have had a few snakes turn finicky after they started breeding, but they began refusing FT on their own, and I only fed them live as a last resort--once I did they continued to refuse FT, and remain picky eaters. Sometimes happens with breeder males.

In most cases, the occasional live meal does absolutely nothing in terms of conditioning a snake not to want FT. They'll most likely take FT next week without an issue.

It's not necessary to damage the rodent's claws to prevent it from scratching. At rat's nails can't penetrate a snake's scales. It's only cruel to hurt them in that fashion.

I do understand your desire to protect your snake, but there is no reason to be unnecessarily cruel to the feeder rodents. Hurting a conscious animal without any anaesthetic is terribly cruel--can you honestly imagine the pain of having your feet and face crushed in metal tongs? Pre-kill the rodents if you feel the need to protect your snake. Served up still twitching in reflex, they will be just as fascinated by a freshly dead rodent as they are by a live one.

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Thanks for the tip. What is the best way to PK humanely? I have heard about Co2, some say head thump (which I don't like) and I've heard tonight that freezing them works. What do you suggest? Do you think I could ask the store to PK? Probably not I bet.

Just get a little tack hammer and knock the rats teeth out before you feed.
No worries then:mouse2:

While the Veterinary associations may prefer CO2, if you have only a few animals, it's not practical, and it's not more humane than the alternative.

A quick blow to the back of the skull with a hard object will kill a rodent instantly and painlessly. It's somewhat brutal, but if you can crush a rat's face to keep it from biting, you can most certainly hit it over the head hard to kill it. It's not pleasant, but all of this is your choice--if you don't want to feed FT, then pre-kill the rodents, it's MUCH more humane than intervening while the snake is killing them.

For BABY rodents, a bar can be placed at the back of the neck and pressed down, and the tail pulled back sharply, breaking the neck. This is called cervical dislocation, and is used to euthanize animals in laboratories. It will not work on adult animals.

Freezing is always cruel and painful, for mammals and reptiles alike.

The store won't prekill the rodents for you, and your snakes will appreciate them more if you prekill them immediately before offering them, so they are still body temperature.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BILLB OKC

Just get a little tack hammer and knock the rats teeth out before you feed.
No worries then:mouse2:

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Really?..Are you serious or kidding. Sorry, at this point I really don't know.

Just messing with ya.

Okay. The rodents are going to die. So are you. So right before you die can i crush your jaw? And im glad you brought up the nature aspect. If you want to bring that up, then let nature take its course with your snakes. Snakes in the wild get bit and scared. Thats nature. Yes the rats are going to die anyways and i understand that. But to crush them, even while restrained by the snakes, is in everyway awful. No matter when you did it, as long as they were alive on conscious, its awful. And just because you are offended by my response and opinion doesnt mean what i have said does not contribute to the thread. So next time you feed live, since in nature animals are cruel, let nature take its course and let your snake deal with its prey. The species has gotten this far so i think it can handle itself.

And it seems a few other people feel the way i do. Some people have brought up how is safety is such a concern then why not feed F/T. This is a perfect arguement. Feeding F/T is easy. You put paper towels down, dangle the rat, the snake takes it, constricts, eats and you remove the paper towels and throw away the clean bag you thawed them in. To have a bloody bag is beyond me. If your so concerned about your animals safety then feed F/T. There no torture involved. And what you did is tortue in my opinion and i bet in alot of peoples opinion. I dont care when you did it. As long as the rodent was alive, then it was torture.

That sickens me! Whatever floats your boat I guess...

I feed both live and f/t and I have only ever had one minor nip from a live rat. That has since healed over and is not even noticeable. 99% of the time the snake will do what it was meant to do by nature. If i do encounter a rat that seems like it could be a threat...I give it a quick thump, then let the snake take over. As long as a live feeding is properly supervised, there should be no worry a serious injury occuring.

I'll admit...watching the snake take live prey can be a rush, but please keep it as humane as possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redstormlax12

And it seems a few other people feel the way i do. Some people have brought up how is safety is such a concern then why not feed F/T. This is a perfect arguement. Feeding F/T is easy. You put paper towels down, dangle the rat, the snake takes it, constricts, eats and you remove the paper towels and throw away the clean bag you thawed them in. To have a bloody bag is beyond me. If your so concerned about your animals safety then feed F/T. There no torture involved. And what you did is tortue in my opinion and i bet in alot of peoples opinion. I dont care when you did it. As long as the rodent was alive, then it was torture.

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What I don’t fully understand about some of the arguments about cruelty stems from something you said also: It seems that it’s humane to hit a rodent in the back of the head so that it dies quickly and painlessly. I realize this is kinda the standard, but it’s something I don’t really want to do. I didn’t take any pleasure in hurting the rodent, but I panicked because it appeared to me to be hurting my snake, and I didn’t want my snake injured at any cost. Some people here have suggested that snakes have thick skin, or that as long as the snake is in the mood to eat, then the animal is not in jeopardy. All of my research has indicated that rodents should never be left alone with any snake, feeding or otherwise, unless the keeper is there to intervene should things go awry.

I understand that you and many people may think that I have tortured these rodents, and I will continue to disagree. – That’s fine. My snakes are the first priority, and if my preventing them from harm was cruel, inhumane, torturous, gruesome, then so be it. I am still going to feed live, I am still go to be fiercely protective of their health and well being, and I will look for more humane ways to protect them from rodent aggression.

I would never expect to duplicate in captivity, what occurs in the wild, so this notion is not a practical solution. Snakes do a lot of things in the wild including eating their young, but this is simply not acceptable while in human care and you know that.

I’d like to think that if my greatest mistake in life was that I mistakenly tortured a feeder rodent once, then I have many great and productive days ahead of me, with my 2 snakes, and any others that happen to come my way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by demjor19

That sickens me! Whatever floats your boat I guess...

I feed both live and f/t and I have only ever had one minor nip from a live rat. That has since healed over and is not even noticeable. 99% of the time the snake will do what it was meant to do by nature. If i do encounter a rat that seems like it could be a threat...I give it a quick thump, then let the snake take over. As long as a live feeding is properly supervised, there should be no worry a serious injury occuring.

I'll admit...watching the snake take live prey can be a rush, but please keep it as humane as possible.

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This is not about floating any boats.

You of all people should understand the importance of being present when live food is being presented to your animal. People seem to think that "thumping" the rodent is not cruel, but pinching it with the tips of tongs is, somehow. I see no difference if the end result is that my animal is not hurt - a healthy happy animal with no mishaps because I failed to properly supervise will never happen here - THAT is what floats my boat.

most of the time when a ball python constricts its live prey, it is squeezing the animal so hard to the point where the rodent cannot shut its jaw to be able to bite. especially if the snake hit the rodent in the back of the neck like it is suppose to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

It seems that it’s humane to hit a rodent in the back of the head so that it dies quickly and painlessly. I realize this is kinda the standard, but it’s something I don’t really want to do.

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You're willing to bash a rat's face in but not to thump it on the back of the head? I'm not really understanding your logic on that one. I don't think anyone here is arguing that hitting a feeder on the head is humane; the point is it's not nearly as bad as smashing its face in or crushing its foot.

I have to agree with bruce on this but i feed live and simply what i do is put a pencil in the rats mouth unless the snake grabs it in which a way the rat can not fight back such as biting the face and constricting when put the pencil in their mouth they chew until they die then i move to the next snake simple no crushing it was just common sense to me but crushing the rat on the other hand is a different story that is not common sense that is just narcissistic now I'm not trying to take a shot at you but what you did was extremely over the top.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sprinkles

You're willing to bash a rat's face in but not to thump it on the back of the head? I'm not really understanding your logic on that one. I don't think anyone here is arguing that hitting a feeder on the head is humane; the point is it's not nearly as bad as smashing its face in or crushing its foot.

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It's a matter of opinion - they are both the same to me. The end result is also the same, except I didn't deliver any blunt force trauma - more of a direct and sustained approach. I actually think the animal was already on its way to dying, but again, as I have said a thousand times, it was my first time and the process was new to me. I will be more humane next time, but my animals health and well-being will always come first.

Personally, I think you should have just fed F/T and be done with it. But I have to say that I am a little appaulled about your crushing feet and heads! That really is not humane in anyway! Don't get me wrong I have a female pastel that right now only eats live, and since I want to breed her next year I will continue her on live, but there is no way i would treat her food cruelly. Which in my opinion is what you did! There are more humane ways to offer live food, such as stunning or pithing.
Mike Kelly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jere000

I have to agree with bruce on this but i feed live and simply what i do is put a pencil in the rats mouth unless the snake grabs it in which a way the rat can not fight back such as biting the face and constricting when put the pencil in their mouth they chew until they die then i move to the next snake simple no crushing it was just common sense to me but crushing the rat on the other hand is a different story that is not common sense that is just narcissistic now I'm not trying to take a shot at you but what you did was extremely over the top.

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That is a new one. Never heard of sticking a pencil in a rodents mouth. Great - nope, don't think I'll be doing that either. Sorry, I just don't see it....I don't see how pinching the tongs was more cruel...really a pencil? What about the lead, the splinters, the opportunity for the snake to get hurt by that....that is by far the wildest definition I have heard called humane....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mfkelly

Personally, I think you should have just fed F/T and be done with it. But I have to say that I am a little appaulled about your crushing feet and heads! That really is not humane in anyway! Don't get me wrong I have a female pastel that right now only eats live, and since I want to breed her next year I will continue her on live, but there is no way i would treat her food cruelly. Which in my opinion is what you did! There are more humane ways to offer live food, such as stunning or pithing.
Mike Kelly

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"Stunning at Pithing?" What is that?

It disgusts me, and I regret even clicking on this thread. Thank goodness there are no accompanying photos. :mad:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patricia

It disgusts me, and I regret even clicking on this thread. Thank goodness there are no accompanying photos. :mad:

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Why would there be photos? Where did that come from? There are photos of other members feeding their pets live animals....be careful what you wish for.

I totally disagree with what you did. I'm not going to try to change your mind about your actions because it is obvious you are immature, inexperienced with snakes, and/or your just plain self centered. You're not going to win this argument with 99.9% of the members here. The more you talk, the more ignorant you sound. Just quit posting come backs, gain some experience with your animals, and through time you will learn that you made a mistake.

I'm not sure this thread is even productive anymore.

No, I don't agree with what occured. I have fed live before and I am quite confident that the snakes can handle it on their own without interference ..BUT.. we all have to remember that we were all new at some point, to something, and it can be scary. It is a lesson learned, do we really need to keep bashing?

I prefer F/T, but I also don't mind a bag of rats next to my waffles. Whatever works best for you and your snake, but do try to learn other ways of handling a live feeding. Don't underestimate your animals, either. :)

Good luck

Quote:

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Originally Posted by marct

I totally disagree with what you did. I'm not going to try to change your mind about your actions because it is obvious you are immature, inexperienced with snakes, and/or your just plain self centered. You're not going to win this argument with 99.9% of the members here. The more you talk, the more ignorant you sound. Just quit posting come backs, gain some experience with your animals, and through time you will learn that you made a mistake.

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I don't change what I believe under pressure from others.

I like to have an intelligent exchange of thoughts and ideas, and in most cases I have tried to be respectful of differing opinions. Sometimes behind the security of anonymity people like you chose to insult, berate and judge.

I think it would be worth it for you to take a good long look in the mirror and ask yourself whether your comments are self centered and immature. Oh and, the last time I checked the First Amendment was still in vogue…so if someone wants to continue to harass me, I am going to continue to respectfully state my position, something you appear to be on short supply of..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

That is a new one. Never heard of sticking a pencil in a rodents mouth. Great - nope, don't think I'll be doing that either. Sorry, I just don't see it....I don't see how pinching the tongs was more cruel...really a pencil? What about the lead, the splinters, the opportunity for the snake to get hurt by that....that is by far the wildest definition I have heard called humane....

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The rats don't chew it up so there is no chunks of wood or anything and the lead does not come out or if you want use a piece of like plastic kinda like when people grind their teeth they need those things, also i would like to remark on the immature thing the way you reacted to every little suggestion even if there was no rude remark in it you responded childishly and I'm only 14.

I'm just trying to help you out. I read your post "Can a baby ball accidently drown". From that post, I've concluded that you have a lot to learn. I'm not suggesting you extinguish your First Amendment rights. I've fought for you to have those rights in Iraq myself. All I'm suggesting is that you stop and listen to what these very experienced members are trying to tell you. I apologize for my harsh words in my previous post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by marct

I'm just trying to help you out. I read your post "Can a baby ball accidently drown". From that post, I've concluded that you have a lot to learn. I'm not suggesting you extinguish your First Amendment rights. I've fought for you to have those rights in Iraq myself. All I'm suggesting is that you stop and listen to what these very experienced members are trying to tell you. I apologize for my harsh words in my previous post.

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Thank you. I apologize also. I do have a lot to learn about snakes, your absolutely right.I was very excited when I joined this forum because there are so many knowledge people. In the beginning i tried to be very careful with my words and respect everyones comments. That is why I tried to personally respond out of appreciation for someone taking the time to offer a suggestion. I agree that the tone has gotten degraded, and I include my self in that assessment.

Hopefully everyone will forgive me for being a new learner to this hobby, and help me to be better and not bitter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jere000

The rats don't chew it up so there is no chunks of wood or anything and the lead does not come out or if you want use a piece of like plastic kinda like when people grind their teeth they need those things, also i would like to remark on the immature thing the way you reacted to every little suggestion even if there was no rude remark in it you responded childishly and I'm only 14.

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14, I'm going to leave you alone. Thanks for your thoughts!

Cruelty is CAUSING PAIN AND SUFFERING. That is what it means. The rat whose jaw you crushed suffered horrendous pain. If you hit a rat on the back of the head hard enough to instantly kill it, it experiences NO pain, and does NOT suffer--thus, that is not cruel. This is not really a difficult concept.

Your intention is completely irrelevent to this--what matters is what the animal experienced. The fact that you were saving your snake from a bite may make what you did understandable, but it does not make it any less an act of cruelty, and one that could have been avoided by feeding FT or prekilling the rodent.

There is simply no way around this. Crushing a rodent's feet and face while it is still conscious is cruel, regardless of the reason for it. The animal suffered. It felt pain and terror. I do not understand how it is that you feel you can deny this.

I'm not saying I might not have used tongs to break a rodent's teeth if it had sunk them into the back of MY snake, what I'm saying is that it's CRUEL. Pre-kill the rodent, and you avoid this cruelty.

Everyone here is super cool. Remember, we are all on the same team here. We learn from each other.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Cruelty is CAUSING PAIN AND SUFFERING. That is what it means. The rat whose jaw you crushed suffered horrendous pain. If you hit a rat on the back of the head hard enough to instantly kill it, it experiences NO pain, and does NOT suffer--thus, that is not cruel. This is not really a difficult concept.

Your intention is completely irrelevent to this--what matters is what the animal experienced. The fact that you were saving your snake from a bite may make what you did understandable, but it does not make it any less an act of cruelty, and one that could have been avoided by feeding FT or prekilling the rodent.

There is simply no way around this. Crushing a rodent's feet and face while it is still conscious is cruel, regardless of the reason for it. The animal suffered. It felt pain and terror. I do not understand how it is that you feel you can deny this.

I'm not saying I might not have used tongs to break a rodent's teeth if it had sunk them into the back of MY snake, what I'm saying is that it's CRUEL. Pre-kill the rodent, and you avoid this cruelty.

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Responded offline

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

14, I'm going to leave you alone. Thanks for your thoughts!

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Just because I'm young does not make what i said less relevant welcome to site by the way.

Seems like a lot of people willing to condemn here. Just want to add my support Choco. Sounds like you are looking for a better way to deal with your own situation, and I figure to each his/her own. I have, thankfully, a group that mostly takes f/t without much trouble (except of course, the BP's which seem alternately disinterested in live and scared (!) of f/t). But even with the corns (which eat anything, moving or not :gj: ) there's often a situation where somebody's holding out. 2 missed feedings and it's live pre-killed. A quick whack on the back of the head and it's done. I hold them by the tail, and use the edge of a cage (wooden) to strike against - it only takes a quick flick of the wrist. It's how it's done here in farm country, and the snakes hit quick if they are still twitching. I prefer f/t mostly due to the parasite issues, but I believe we think things way too through sometimes, and snakes deal with it all better than many are willing to believe. I am thankful as well that I don't have to breed rodents here; the stink is more than I care to put up with. Raising mealworms is bad enough.

I don't appreciate cruelty on any level, and while I do all I can to treat these animals humanely. If I have to pick them up live they have a cozy travel box, and I play them nice music on the ride home. But first and foremost they are feed, and destined to die. They are rodents; it is the way of things. And if there's an issue I will act in my snake's best interests. It sounds like your first time dealing with killing something, and mistakes are made. I salute you for being brave enough to share the experience and adult enough to deal with the consequences.

And I gotta disagree with those who need to slam you. I'd probably not have been as kind in my replies. I just don't get the "You must conform to my beliefs" crowd. They are of the same stock (albeit of different flavors) as the people who would ban us from keeping these amazing creatures because they think it's cruel to keep any animal in a cage. Forums are great learning tools, and using them to express your opinion on a subject is one thing, but slamming others because of your righteous opinions is not what this is about. Had you been bragging, I'd likely have felt different. But it sounded like you were sharing an experience, and were/are willing to learn from others. I guess that is lost on some.

Sounds like you have learned a lot; I know I have through this post. Best of luck with future feedings.