Why We Are Idiots For Using Kingsnake.com To Price Our Animals

Why are Ball Python prices constantly crashing? Why can't the prices stabilize or even go up like most other pets? Popular breeds of dogs for instance. Their prices are going UP!!! Why doesn't this happen with Ball Pythons?

I have come to the conclusion that it's not kingsnake.com at all. It's the nature of the beast.

Here it is from beginning to end.

The Breeder that creates a new morph if planned right sells the first of their offspring at top dollar (super inflated price) to the big dogs. $25k for the XXX morph. Once the top dogs have them and have had time to create their own babies from breeding projects with the XXX ball, the price quickly drops each year but then stabilizes to what should be the normal retail price of $500 - $1000 dependent on quality of the morph.

Why should $500-$1000 be the normal retail price? Because it is the bottom point where the breeder is making enough money for their time and expenses to be worth it. Anything less then this amount and it would not be worth it to the breeder. Most people who really want this XXX ball can save and in time will be able to afford and be willing to spend the $500 - $1000 for it. There is PLENTY of demand to keep the prices between $500 - $1000 indefinitely.

This is when the consumers screw everything up. IMHO, there are 2 kinds of people that own snakes.

Type A: These are snake nerds who for the most part are intelligent, nerdy, successful people who are fascinated with snakes for whatever reason. Generally speaking they take good care of their animals, and make good decisions in life because they have good intentions, and are willing to do what it takes. Some of these people keep snakes just as pets, and others choose to breed either to make a few bucks or to try and make a particular morph that they want. Some of them are even able to make a good living out of breeding snakes.

Type B: The other kind of person is IMHO the majority. These are the rebellious under achievers who pretty much get into snakes because they are considered taboo, or not accepted by the main stream. They CRAVE attention. While their intentions may be good to start they almost always in the long run hold their own "cool points" at a much higher regard then the snakes health and future. Once the novelty or attention wares off, the snake is screwed.

There are so many Type B people that get a snake on a whim, then a week later because they are broke and generally unsuccessful in life, come up with the grand idea of breeding snakes to make a quick fortune. They are too lazy and / or stupid to do the math or the research necessary to figure out what all is entailed, and they just jump into it head first. They do this by spending every dime they have at the moment on one or two below average XXX ball pythons.

If the snakes are lucky and don't die, they are often able to successfully produce below average / pathedic XXX babies. Of course when the babies come they don't have the proper housing. The keeper can not afford to feed themselves (because their parents just kicked them out) let alone hungry baby snakes. They certainly don't have the money needed to fix any of the problems, or the will to make the money to fix the problems. Investing in advertising? Please!

The cool idea has now turned into a major headache. They are tired of the hassles of getting rats and the tanks haven't been cleaned in weeks. The friends have already seen the snakes, and are just no longer interested. Just as they started, they decide on the spur of the moment without any real though to SELL SELL SELL for rent, groceries, beer money, or whatever. So they use tools LIKE KINGSNAKE to dump their animals as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately you have lots of Type A people who see these under priced adds, and do the traditional nerdy thing and give into the lower pricing pressure that the Type B people are applying, and drop their prices too. Nerds don't usually make the best salesmen either.... Sure their morphs are excellent examples of the morph compared to type B, but usually they don't have the confidence or the skill set to stand up to people and hold out for a just price. Granted, some snake nerds can and do sell.... In fact they are some of the biggest names out there right now. But most can't.

Then you have another clutch born by another Type B person (don't forget, they are the majority) and the prices drop even lower.

This repeats itself many times over just a year or two. The XXX ball is now averaging around $250 - $350 dependent on quality.

The big breeders at this point even though they know what their animals are worth have to make some tough decisions. Their snakes are of superior quality, and they do have some customers that are still buying a little, but their babies start piling up. They have already made their money back, maybe even turned a profit. Sooner or later they have no choice but to openly drop their prices, or do secret deals for way below retail just to get rid of them. After all they have to make room for the new AAA morph they just acquired.

Bam! the market is permanently ruined for the XXX ball. Prices drop to $150 to $200 regardless of quality.

Now how can you say it is kingsnakes fault? Yes they are a tool used often times in a BAD way, but they certainly are NOT the basis of the problem.

Makes sense to me. But Colin has a point also. :gj:

LOL, this took me forever to write, I didn't mean to make this another thread, it was intended to be a reply to colins thread. My computer stated acting up so i copy and pasted into a new window. Mods, can you fix this?

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Nerds don't usually make the best salesmen either.... Sure their morphs are excellent examples of the morph compared to type B, but usually they don't have the confidence or the skill set to stand up to people and hold out for a just price. Granted, some snake nerds can and do sell.... In fact they are some of the biggest names out there right now. But most can't.

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I agree with everything except this generalization. I was a shy nerd who (I thought) would make a terrible salesman until I started working at a reptile store. Turns out it's pretty easy and actually quite enjoyable. When the time comes for me to sell my own snakes, I -can not wait- to tell people about them and make some sales.

Additionally, I've heard of PLENTY of "snake nerds" who will hold onto an animal and sell it for more as an older animal rather than dump it for a low price. I will be one of these people as well.

I can't speak for everyone, but I think there are a few more Type A's out there than you are accounting for.

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Originally Posted by Hulihzack

I can't speak for everyone, but I think there are a few more Type A's out there than you are accounting for.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Nerds don't usually make the best salesmen either.... Sure their morphs are excellent examples of the morph compared to type B, but usually they don't have the confidence or the skill set to stand up to people and hold out for a just price. Granted, some snake nerds can and do sell.... In fact they are some of the biggest names out there right now. But most can't.

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I believe both hold true to some points... But I do not believe we should go off of other peoples prices.. Whether it be kingsnake or not... That is just stupid. Kingsnake is Over rated IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

But most can't.

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Right. That's the part that I'm hung up on. I just have a really hard time believing that a true snake nerd who values their animals would rip themselves off. Maybe I'm mistaken.:confused:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

You found the chink in the armor of private breeders.

IF it's a hobby, price is not relevant.

IF it's a business, price is all that IS important.

It can't be both.

IF you're complaining about price, you're a business.

It's that simple to this simple mind.

All the rest is justification for NOT wanting to be known as a business when, in fact, that is exactly what you are.

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There is not a thing wrong with being a business. Most of us either do now or plan to sell snakes in the future.

I find it difficult to define a hobby, something one does for pleasure, with a business, something one does for compensation.

I know a guy who keeps a bunch of orchids. He built a greenhouse for them. They're neat. He spends a lot of time with as well as on them. As far as I know, he's never sold one, he's never mentioned anything about wanting to make his investment back or that he wanted to make enough by selling little orchids to buy other orchids.

That's a hobby.

He breeds snakes too. Really nice ones. He sells them for money. I think it's a business he likes a lot but I, just me, don't consider that a hobby. There are different expectations from his interaction between his two interests.

This probably holds true for a great many.

My definitions of hobby and business may be a little more black and white than some.

I'm not claiming I'm right or anyone is wrong, just clarifying and expanding my prior statement.

Interesting post, thanks. The hypothetical situation you mentioned is scary.

So basically, it is that people are putting gradually lower and lower prices on kingsnake.com to compete with each other, and this is what is killing the market?

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Originally Posted by 771subliminal

Would you not buy the least expensive snake tho if they were of the exact same quality?

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Because I'm SO picky about the animals that I add - it's rare to find two animals of the same quality to comparison shop. As an example, how many lessers have YOU seen that look like this?

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9.../Lesserboy.jpg

That's a VERY unique look - I have been looking for "the" lesser that I wanted to add to my collection for over a year. I finally found him. So, there is no "comparable" lesser for me to comparison shop. I know what I want, and I'm willing to pay for what I want.

And again - I don't believe that a bright yellow pastel that holds its colors into adulthood should be priced the same as a deep orange baby that's going to turn into a turd brown adult. And I won't sell my bright yellow pastels for the same price as the turd brown pastels. If that means that I have to keep all my bright yellow pastels for myself, I have no heartache about doing so. But somehow, I don't think that's going to be a problem.

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Originally Posted by 771subliminal

When I shop I dont sacrifice quality, but I look for the grade A for the C grade price.

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And I'm not willing to sell my Grade A's for C grade pricing. But I'm also not willing to produce more than I can comfortably keep for myself. If I sell my animals at my price - it's a win. If I keep my hot animals, it's still a win!

Here's another example of recognizing that there are distinct differences between the "average" example of a morph and a stunning example of a morph.

Just last night I was on the phone with a local friend (who is also a member here) just chatting about snakes in general and what's going on with this coming season, etc. He says to me "by the way - I want an enchi from your girl when you produce some. I don't care what you're asking for them, I'll pay your asking price, but I have to have one of your enchi's offspring".

There's a saying that some of my ball python friends and I say - "there are enchi's and then there are ENCHI'S!"

My point is - there ARE buyers out there who recognize that a stunning animal should be worth more than an average animal. The difference is the mentality of the sellers. There is no reason to dump your price just because your animal doesn't sell in the first day, first week, or even first month of you listing it. Don't be so quick to panic drop your prices.

My enchi is the model for my avatar. Here's another picture of her as well. And yes, I paid more for her than your average enchi price.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...i/IMG_5244.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...i/IMG_5251.jpg

All I know is that I want one of those (Robin's) Lesser babies... seriously, he is SO hot! :bow:

And I agree, there is no price on quality or desire. If I had the means, I'd happily spend more for a snake that made me go wow, over a cheaper one that made me go "eh." Even within my limited budget, I've been as picky as possible... took months to find the right Mojave, and I honestly didn't even care about the price-tag (although it actually wasn't too bad ;)).

understanding where your coming from animals are worth different amounts to everyone, like me im a small breeder have about 40 ball pythons, i dont need to sell a lmnop ball for $2000 (all others prices) when i can sell them for $1000 and be able to feed my snakes for another 6 months without it coming out my pocket. bigger breeders have bigger overhead. I dont all i have is just hydro, snake food and supplies, and rent but i have a job for all that and what ever i make from my snakes just goes back into them... so if a lmnop is worth to you $2000 then that dose not mean its worth that to me.

Not to bust your balls. Colin, maybe it's the so say small breeders producing 70 clutches and over 400 ball pythons a year that drive the prices down.

I know there are big breeders that produce hundreds of clutchs and do it for a living. BUT, some "small" breeders have to get a job, keep their day job, breed as a hobby, PAINT FOR A LIVING, etc, etc, etc,...

3 years ago, I saw a breeder at an expo selling normals(his "disposable"(I know that that word sounds horrible) ball pythons) for $10. On sunday, after lunch, he dropped the price to $5 for a perfectly healthy normal.---I assume it was worth it to the breeder because he made some gas money, paid for his table at the show, and doesn't have to feed and care for these "undesirable"(horrible word again) snakes.

Stirring the pot!

May I make a suggestion. I think some have missed the point. The object is not to stop those who unload animals cheap. It is to bring to everyones attention that we do not need to let them dictate price for our animals. Wal-mart sells diamonds so does Cartier. But Cartier doesn't run down to Wal-mart to check prices. They set their own price based on what they think it is worth knowing they will not win over the Wal-mart diamond shopper. And trust me the diamonds at Wal-mart are not the same quality.

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Originally Posted by JDL

why is it the auto industry (when actually only 2 car companies got money) is the butt end of the bail out jokes when the money they got wasnt anything compared to the money the finacial district got?

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If Kingsnake had opened a bank the joke would have gone differently, however since they got a brand new race car......

[IMG]http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...ngsnakecar.jpg[/IMG]

As a breeder when it comes to what I spend on a snake isn't relative. Sure right now prices seem to be dropping like a stone. When the dust settles those people that paid attention to the quality of the animal the buy as apposed to the price tag will have the upper hand.. How is that you say? Because they will be producing the high quality animals that are still in demand..

When you buy there are two ways to go about it.. buy the gene (i.e. I don't give a crap what it looks like I just want to own a pastel..) or buy the quality (i.e. when its 1800 grams will it still be a fantastic looking animal?)

3rd post here. Blah
Selling snakes on kingsnake.com is very competitive. Most of the snakes that I have sold were sold on kingsnake.com. So, I have nothing bad to say about kingsnake.com and think it is a good place to sell snakes. I also have purchased most of my collection from the classified ads on kingsnake.com.

If spiders are selling for $200 plus shipping. I don't think anyone would buy one from me for $400(I sold spiders for $400 in the past, but not this year). So, I may price mine at $250 shipped.

I do believe in breeding for quality. Example: Nicer pastels will produce nicer bees, blasts, etc. The nicer/higher quality snakes that I produce are priced higher than the others. Examples: One with a unique pattern(high white pied) or one that is lighter or brighter.

With few exceptions, my collection was built on buying higher quality/better looking animals. An example of me buying what was priced lower is my first spider. In 2005, spiders were expensive(at least for me), but I wanted to produce bumble bees. I bought the cheapest one on kingsnake. Shame on me for saving $300. My first spider is one of my breeder females now and has produced two clutches for me including my first bumble bee.

Still enjoying this topic!

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Originally Posted by wilomn

There is not a thing wrong with being a business. Most of us either do now or plan to sell snakes in the future.

I find it difficult to define a hobby, something one does for pleasure, with a business, something one does for compensation.

I know a guy who keeps a bunch of orchids. He built a greenhouse for them. They're neat. He spends a lot of time with as well as on them. As far as I know, he's never sold one, he's never mentioned anything about wanting to make his investment back or that he wanted to make enough by selling little orchids to buy other orchids.

That's a hobby.

He breeds snakes too. Really nice ones. He sells them for money. I think it's a business he likes a lot but I, just me, don't consider that a hobby. There are different expectations from his interaction between his two interests.

This probably holds true for a great many.

My definitions of hobby and business may be a little more black and white than some.

I'm not claiming I'm right or anyone is wrong, just clarifying and expanding my prior statement.

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I think flowers and snakes are different animals though. There is, in my opinion, a lot more that goes into the keeping and breeding of snakes than the keeping and breeding of flowers (given I have absolutely no experience keeping and breeding flowers). There is also a lot more to worry about, and a heavier ethical burden involved in snake husbandry and breeding. Beyond that, the idea of breeding on any sort of upper scale and keeping every single hatchling produced does not seem realistic to me, especially as grown hatchlings reproducing becomes an exponential problem. I think in the snake world if you're going to think about breeding, you have to also think about selling. I don't really think it's an option for 99.9% of people to NOT sell. In my opinion, selling is just another part of the hobby. Just because there is a business element to Ball Python breeding does not mean it's a business and not a hobby, I don't think it's sensical to draw such distinct lines.

Cheers,
-Matt

there is many different things lowering prices right now some we have not seen before times got tough and others have been going on.
the bottom line is this price your animals at what you want to. if they are not selling at all or you dont have any replies then either your charging too much, your advertising not enough, or your just not got enough feedback to warrant someone to purchase from you.

the quality doesnt mean much when your not selling anything and youve been caring for multiple clutches for months and months on end. everyone cannot keep every animal they produce and saying that you can is total crap! the last time i checked there is not alot of ppl in this business that have that much disposable income. also what some fail to bring up that every animal in every clutch will not be the same. not only that but just because an individual animal looks better or worse does not mean it will produce ugly babies more or less than the other. also your not the one dictating whats quality and what is not! the buyer dictates that period!

for those of you that are not selling and just buying pay what you want to pay for the individual animal every snake is not the same period! ive seen way too many ppl just buy a snake because its a mojave and not because its the mojave they cannot live without. right now this is a buyers market!

when i got into this you could not hardly find nice looking animals for any money pretty much most of the things for sale is the animals that ppl do not want to keep for themselves.. right now your your starting to see a little better looking animals because all this time everyone has held back everything nice they could afford to hold back. sure there is still not so nice looking animals out there still being produced and there always will be, but still not much has changed many ppl are still holding back alot. too often i hear "im not giving away a female" and you hear that because if they keep the same price eventually when it gets bigger it will sell or they can afford to keep it. this is also why we are seeing alot less morph females for sale also, but soon that will change also then stuff will drop again.

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Originally Posted by nixer

there is many different things lowering prices right now some we have not seen before times got tough and others have been going on.
the bottom line is this price your animals at what you want to. if they are not selling at all or you dont have any replies then either your charging too much, your advertising not enough, or your just not got enough feedback to warrant someone to purchase from you.

the quality doesnt mean much when your not selling anything and youve been caring for multiple clutches for months and months on end. everyone cannot keep every animal they produce and saying that you can is total crap! the last time i checked there is not alot of ppl in this business that have that much disposable income. also what some fail to bring up that every animal in every clutch will not be the same. not only that but just because an individual animal looks better or worse does not mean it will produce ugly babies more or less than the other. also your not the one dictating whats quality and what is not! the buyer dictates that period!

for those of you that are not selling and just buying pay what you want to pay for the individual animal every snake is not the same period! ive seen way too many ppl just buy a snake because its a mojave and not because its the mojave they cannot live without. right now this is a buyers market!

when i got into this you could not hardly find nice looking animals for any money pretty much most of the things for sale is the animals that ppl do not want to keep for themselves.. right now your your starting to see a little better looking animals because all this time everyone has held back everything nice they could afford to hold back. sure there is still not so nice looking animals out there still being produced and there always will be, but still not much has changed many ppl are still holding back alot. too often i hear "im not giving away a female" and you hear that because if they keep the same price eventually when it gets bigger it will sell or they can afford to keep it. this is also why we are seeing alot less morph females for sale also, but soon that will change also then stuff will drop again.

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Ya what he said :)

Great thread with many valid points/arguments/perceptions. :)

Many things are indeed different these days. One thing is the same as it has always been. If you are seling an animal, you need to be prepared to keep it back or lower the price. Some 1 and 2 gene FEMALES are worth more to me as a breeder to raise than to sell at low retail or worse. :( I have held most of my girls back these season and last for that matter.

I have a couple NEW projects/combos that I have set the intitial price on. I did/could not use KS to price them -- even if I were so inclined. I took a look at similar/other existing/established codom-recessive projects -- measured my project visually and also considered the rarity of the componets to make the visual. Again, if I have valued animals higher than potential buyer does then I need to be prepared to hold it or lower the price tag. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Type B: The other kind of person is IMHO the majority. These are the rebellious under achievers who pretty much get into snakes because they are considered taboo, or not accepted by the main stream. They CRAVE attention. While their intentions may be good to start they almost always in the long run hold their own "cool points" at a much higher regard then the snakes health and future. Once the novelty or attention wares off, the snake is screwed.

There are so many Type B people that get a snake on a whim, then a week later because they are broke and generally unsuccessful in life, come up with the grand idea of breeding snakes to make a quick fortune. They are too lazy and / or stupid to do the math or the research necessary to figure out what all is entailed, and they just jump into it head first. They do this by spending every dime they have at the moment on one or two below average XXX ball pythons.

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Wow Thanks there Mike you just managed to insult more than half of our hobby (you even say in your opinion the majority) by calling them worthless losers. Just... wow. You have to realize with the hobby as it stands WE type B people have the same captivating dreams as you (I'm assuming by your tone you consider yourself in the type A plan) type A's. Not necessarily for the cash but we have our creative urges too, and often much better intentions. When I go to a reptile show and watch who's getting into morphs it's a heck of a lot more type B losers than snobs.

The only reason there is any demand for morphs is because BOTH "type A" and "type B" people both imagine what they can do, and take a big step and make the investment torwards a positive future. Do you breed and sell your animals? Because the tone in just those two paragraphs is like Sam Walton of Walmart hopping on the intercom at one of his stores and calling their customers a bunch of "retards". The snakes aren't just to be cool, as you'd like to insult a lot of the fringe with the stigma, but the fact that the animals are just that cool.

I guarantee many of the type B's (myself included) spend alot more time actually handling the animals and appreciating them as more for their coolness than as an investment, and I'd consider the actual social quality of those animals more worth my attention and my share of the market than even a prettier morph from someone who's snakes are terrified of people because they were a product made not out of facination but rather as an income (we've all seen you tube video's showing and that personality is shared by the majority of animals produced in mass production.) How many reputable breeders let their animals out of their cubicles to excersize and explore should they desire to? I sure as heck wouldn't pay top dollar for a stunning example of say a lesser who just sat there like a piece of furniture (I'd download the picture and save 500 bucks) but I wouldn't mind buying a brown pastel who was curious and actually an entertaining pet.

As far as the recent argument comparing Balls to dogs, it's partially relevant but it's a way off considering the natures of both the animals and the consumers.

Dogs are harder to have multiples of for the average consumer, making selective breeding a bit more difficult. The person spending over a grand on a quality dog line is buying a pet (and more often than not status symbol). The average consumer of expensive dog morph isn't primarily in the market for that animal to make more of them or mix it with other genes to create new things.

Balls are easy to house in multiples (although caging and incidentals are the true goldmine in the reptile industry (even in larger degree than the rest of the pet industry). The majority of those into Ball Pythons seem to me to be more into the coolness of the animals than the status symbol involved (well at least us type B losers who are generally unsuccessful at life regardless of what some "type A" people would say). The consumer of royal morphs is 9 times out of 10 looking to produce more themselves creating an excess, and since balls don't exhaust themselves in their consumption (rather the opposite they multiply) the prices can only be expected to plummet. Now you could slow this effect by not selling males (quicker to breed and can create alot more stock quicker), or by culling all but the best to really improve the lines... but until neutering royals is as easy as it is with dogs you can't expect prices to stabilize to the point where profits on invested time/capital remain consistently high on the same morphs. How are prices going to stabilize when supply just keeps going up while demand just goes down? I may be lazy or stupid but even I understand that fallacy in economic thinking. After the big dog and second wave in morph producers make back their investment on new morphs housing and feeding breeders has such a low capital upkeep compared to the prices their clutches can go for even without single mutations being in the 500-1k price range (which I know many type A's would find astonishing with their general success in life but is often out of affordable range of the type B hobbyist which makes up a large share of the royal single-mutation market).

It is still easy to get an unusually high rate of return on capital investment in the ball industry if you are generally successful at life and understand the market and how to play it. That is why the market has so many players on so many levels. How much was made on the pinstripe craze? Even if they were now selling for 50 bucks those who knew the market and were there at the right time made a killing... same with many of the new morphs.

Those who are "lazy or stupid" :partyon: and can't figure out how to either fill a niche or create one in the market will be standing there wondering why they can't still pull in 500% a year or more on their initial investment but the ones who "make good decisions" will realize that mood rings and pet rocks just don't command the same prices any more. Either way those who love the hobby and the animals, and who strive to create quality and are in it for that creative aspect, will be happy regardless of the outcome as long as the hobby still exists.

Just remember the market for Balls is as big as it is because prices DO drop where the majority of those in the hobby, us Type B's, can actually afford to participate in it. You only get 2k for a pinstripe because people know they can turn that around and later sell them for 500 then (what now 300?) but they have more to breed so their investment still pays off (granted there is the niche in the market that just has to have the morphs for their own collections... the quintessential type A type, but that is as you say not the majority of the market for your "product".) It's not like Ball pythons wear out as fast as say designer clothing, once I have a pinstripe unless I am trying to breed en masse I'm not necessarily going to buy another at the same price.

I apologize for my rambling my boyfriend is already chuckling at me for it, but this sort of topic is a passionate topic since it's putting a price (and therefore exclusivity) on beauty. And it seems people are more concerned with their profits in it as an industry (even if it places others just as passionate in the hobby out of the runnings on working with the more beautiful pieces in this fabulous jigsaw) than the side of the hobby that the passionate hobbyist could (in alot of my type B mentality) be focusing on..... trying to spread the beauty... the best genes... the "quality" in the genetics to raise up the gene pool of the species as a whole. We as a collective passionate bunch have shaped the whole face of the ball python species. Being part of that experience means more to me than a dollar sign. Being the unsuccessful and lazy type B that I am if I manage to just break even at this hobby, and enjoy sharing the passion with others in the meantime even if it means selling the beautiful well adjusted animals I produce at low prices just to be able to move my extras, I consider it a great success.

And even if I disdain the capitalistic cancer that runs this world and am considered unsuccessful by many, I am part of a big niche in your market. I plan on creating beauty with what I can afford to work with, I plan on sharing that beauty. I appreciate a browned out pastel for the magnificent animal that shares this existance with me, not as a less valuable piece of property that ruins the "value" my more beautiful creations are "worth". I am not alone. I AM Joe Schmoe, and there are alot more like me. If you don't want to cater to me and my value as a consumer... providing the "product" I seek at a price I'm willing to pay for it... I ask that at least you don't go insulting me blaming me and those like me for hurting your success in this "industry".

Please do your research on who your consumer actually is before you call the majority of them idiots and blame them for hurting your enterprise. I would rather buy a "lesser quality" animal from someone I'm proud to share a hobby with rather than a smoking animal at a fantastic price from someone I wouldn't feel 100 % happy inviting to my dinner table. Most of the herpers I know are the same way... a little free market research for ya.

Sorry to run off the tracks on this thread, if it was in the business forum rather than (whichever forum it's in now I've been editing this so long I've forgotten!) forum I would have just ignored it. No offense meant to anyone consider it a market survey if you must! Although in a lot of industries talk of getting together as a collective and setting prices would be considered illegal :salute:.

Sorry to ramble, I apologize for boring you with a novel, with love peace and camaraderie for all who share my obsession ... Long live Joe Schmoe!

All the whining is pretty funny considering YOU are killing the market every time you breed. You are selling those babies for a high price to *gasp* another breeder. If there was such a market for them why is fauna full of bumped posts and dropping prices? You can't regulate the breeding so why expect to regulate prices?

You talk like a "hobby" breeder must not be doing it right, must have low quality animals or a poor setup which isn't neccessarily the case. I don't know any hobby that you make money off, if you are in it to make money, you are a business. I'm not making any money off my lone snake, but don't feel the need to breed him just because I've been paying out to feed and house him, that's what having a pet requires last time I checked. If you can't afford to feed and house what you are producing than you shouldn't be breeding period.

I also have spent thousands on my reef tanks but don't feel the need to frag out every "rare" coral every time it grows an inch to get my money back because I enjoy tanks and enjoy the hobby. But plenty do and there's the same arguments on every reefing forum about price drops and "quality". Some people feel special to pay 20x times the price to have a name on it and others like me could care less because it's the look I'm after, not who bred/named it.

a: Free Market

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Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

Great thread with many valid points/arguments/perceptions. :)

Many things are indeed different these days. One thing is the same as it has always been. If you are seling an animal, you need to be prepared to keep it back or lower the price. Some 1 and 2 gene FEMALES are worth more to me as a breeder to raise than to sell at low retail or worse. :( I have held most of my girls back these season and last for that matter.

I have a couple NEW super cool and exciting projects/combos that I have set the intitial price on. I did/could not use KS to price them -- even if I were so inclined. I took a look at similar/other existing/established codom-recessive projects -- measured my project visually and also considered the rarity of the componets to make the visual. Again, if I have valued animals higher than potential buyer does then I need to be prepared to hold it or lower the price tag. :gj:

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i agree with you bill, but i think something needed to be added. look for the bold

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Originally Posted by nixer

i agree with you bill, but i think something needed to be added. look for the bold

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You are too kind nixer!! :bow: It always sounds a little sweeter when others go out of their way to embellish your project. :)

The Caramel Mojaves and the rest of the gang :snake::snake::snake: give a big "shout out"!!!!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

And I'm not willing to sell my Grade A's for C grade pricing. But I'm also not willing to produce more than I can comfortably keep for myself. If I sell my animals at my price - it's a win. If I keep my hot animals, it's still a win!

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i cant say that i blame you for not selling a's at c prices i wouldnt either, but others do this alot, that is part of the reason there is a thread like this one here.

I think anyone wanting to sell snakes should read this. Thanks for opening other peoples eyes.

I don't think its idiocy; the market will set the prices... and do it with no emotion and no prejudice.

Another thing is, the internet consolidates markets further, so there is nothing we can do about it.

We either play ball, or get out of the game.

BrandonsBalls

This is very weird post....Leave it to us, right out the gate, to jump in peoples faces to say "Dont breed pythons for the money, do it because you enjoy the animals, do it because your passionate about the hobby" Now ppl are complaining that their business isn't making money....lol Im actually going to lower my prices by 75% on kingsnake on all my 2010 clutches...pastel ♀ $50, My whole clutch of piebalds 400 bucks...Anybody want a
2200g. ♀ spider for 250 bucks...lol :rofl:

I don't see how any one can disagree with this post... Now who is to say they are doing it for money? If you can make money doing what you love wouldn't you? Stop following the band wagon people. Get some common sense... and stop assuming stuff..... Kiddies.


Just my two cents.
Ben

As long as I make back my 300 bucks I spent on my kingsnake account I'm happy! ;)

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Originally Posted by Wonka

When I go to a reptile show and watch who's getting into morphs it's a heck of a lot more type B losers than snobs.

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Excellent, then you agree with me. Thanks for the support! :gj:

Good post Colin:gj:, unfortunately you just schooled a whole bunch of people.:taz:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Excellent, then you agree with me. Thanks for the support! :gj:

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Haha, just remember, alot of people getting into morphs find this site as a resource and use it to help them decide who to buy from. Resources like this site are what help spread the addiction of this hobby (and resulting markets such as the desire for morphs and caging and other incidentals), and this is where alot of newcomers learn through reputation and words who they want to deal with and who they wouldn't for some reason or another.

Ahh the difference a sarcastic pair of quotation marks or their omission can make!

:weirdface

This is the beauty of a free market system! Prices are set based on supply and demand, and as supply increases (as it does every breeding season with bps) prices go down, thereby allowing more people to afford the luxury of owning a snake. You can't get mad because prices drop year to year. That's how a healthy market works, that's how more people are able to afford more luxuries and how stadard of living is raised (in all areas). I agree you should not go on KS to do "market research" but if price go down on KS it could be an indication of a chaging marketplace. If the phantasm owner/seller realized the demand was still high vs. the price he would not care about the guy faking the price. Also, in the economic atmosphere people are in though financial situations and losing jobs etc. so I think it is natural to see people selling there "collection" cheaper because they do need quick cash. This will flood the market with some morph, thus lowering there value per snake. Another reason people lower their prices on their snakes is bc they can't sell them at their asking price. This shows that demand has decreased vs. supplu so you can't get mad at them for asking a lower price bc you would have to do the same to sell your bp.

sorry if I rambled too much....

I hate to beveryones Bubble but this i just Supply and Demand.

I dont see anyone here complaining that they got a LCD TV thats 50 inchs for 900$ that looks superb, but 5 years ago would have been lower quality and costs 10,000$.

I have purchased 20k$ in reptiles and supplies in the last 12 months. I hatched 6 Clutches of balls this year and have gave away morphs to friends for free. I have not sold 1 reptile and dont plan to until maybe next year. Call me the idiot who ruins the market because I am getting other people involved in the hobby? They wouldnt have bought a nice Albino or other morphs if they werent affordable. Me giving them a morph free? Well guess what one of those friends 5 months later went to the Anaheim NARBC and bought 6 more morphs. Would he have done this without affordable prices? NO. If an Albino ball was 20k I wouldnt buy balls. If my Clown male and female were 20k, I wouldnt be into ball pythons. Its the SUPPLY and lack of demand that lowered the prices and got my 20,000$ into your market.

I am in it for the love of animals, not the love of money. And if they cost too much, then I am afraid I would have to pass. So if your into this for money? Then you have to find a way to outclass, advertise better, Cut your production costs, etc. Same thing applies in every market in the world.

BTW if I ever do sell and animal, and make money. Just know that I had to run a full time "Painter" JOB and raise these animals too. I come home everyday from a 14 hour day and clean cages, feed and water everything. I build racks, completed a Snake room. And if I need to sell an animal thats worth 5k for 1k(although I would never), then unfortunately thats my right. :gj:

I hope evryone who reads this entire thread learns a lot. I really enjoyed it, and Collin you have valid points, and most everyone here does. This is one of those times where when its all said and done and he dust settles...all you can say is ...........

To Each Their Own

Daryl

me and my wife were talking and a good point about prices dropping came up, even if the price of a morph dropped 50% in one year you would still make out over the life of that snake, if its a male you could even make your money back the following year. co-dom male crossed with 3 normal females avg 8 eggs each if you avg 50% odds and get half morphs and the prices dropped 50% once you sell 2 snakes you have what you put into him back already, sell a couple more and he's paid for his food and houseing and you still should have a couple to hold back or sell to get a new morph. thats is just a drop in the bucket compared to what you could do with him if you were to use him to make double and triple morphs plus think of the life of the snake what all he can make.

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Originally Posted by JDL

why is it the auto industry (when actually only 2 car companies got money) is the butt end of the bail out jokes when the money they got wasnt anything compared to the money the finacial district got?

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Its funny to most people?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

That's when you ask - then why don't you buy from XYZ? If you like the animal that I'm offering better, because it's a NICER animal, then why would you be surprised it's priced accordingly?

If you like XYZ's prices more than the quality of the animal, then go buy from XYZ.

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AMEN!!!!!


I have been thinking about pricing lately, what is the market???

The best animal I can hope for this year would be a super pastel 50% pos het albino, I HAVE NO CLUE HOW TO BASE THE VALUE OF THIS ANIMAL!!!!

I guess I will stick to what I think they are worth and if they sell great if not then I guess I will have to explain to my wife why I have more snakes then what I told her I would have.

Mike

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Originally Posted by Wonka

Haha, just remember, alot of people getting into morphs find this site as a resource and use it to help them decide who to buy from. Resources like this site are what help spread the addiction of this hobby (and resulting markets such as the desire for morphs and caging and other incidentals), and this is where alot of newcomers learn through reputation and words who they want to deal with and who they wouldn't for some reason or another.

Ahh the difference a sarcastic pair of quotation marks or their omission can make!

:weirdface

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Sweet! hopefully this is true and it will weed out a lot of the less then desirable customers. I do after all care where my snakes end up... :gj:

And when people who used this source as an inspiration to get into the hobby see what some breeders may think of them and get turned off by the whole deal, I guess you wouldn't have to worry about where your animals ended up because you'd have them all!

*wink*

After going to a show today it seems like there's already a shortage of people looking to spend decent money for BP's (I mean breeders were basically trying to give their animals away it seemed), last thing I would think anyone interested in opening up a market for all the breeders who use this site to pimp their wares would do is go and insult people who could catch on to the dream and buy some morphs.

But hey if calling most of the potential customers who walk up to yer booth failures works for your business more power to ya. I'd just ask you as hobbyist who might want to sell some offspring in the future... please insult the mass of OUR fellow hobbyists in private messages if you feel the need to rather than on a public forum which serves to help attract people to our hobby.

Thanks and Peace, and thanks to all the breeders who brought their animals to the Richmond show today even if you didn't get to sell as many as you would have liked... many cool breeders to talk to at the show.

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Originally Posted by alikax

And when people who used this source as an inspiration to get into the hobby see what some breeders may think of them and get turned off by the whole deal

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I think it is safe to say that if someone gets put off so much by someone elses opinion on a public snake forum, then it probably isn't a bad thing. After all, someone so quick to be turned off probably wouldn't make it the 30 years it takes to care for one of these snakes anyway. Right? :gj:

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Originally Posted by alikax

But hey if calling most of the potential customers who walk up to yer booth failures works for your business more power to ya.

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For the record, even though I keep getting accused of this, at no time have I used the term "failures." While plenty of the "Type B" will in the end be considered failures, not all of them will. After all, anyone can change if they want to, and are willing to do what it takes.

As far as what works for my business, I have absolutely no problem selling to nothing but snake nerds. Lucky for me, there is more then enough snake nerd demand out there to keep up with what I can supply. :gj: