Put it down already

I believe in giving an animal every chance possible to live. Doesn't matter if the snake has one eye, no eyes, kinks--whatever. It's not the snake's fault it's deformed.

Now, if the deformity is severely interfering with the snake's quality of life, then yes, humane euthanization is necessary. I do not wish any animal to suffer just because I want it to survive.

And no, putting it in the freezer is not a humane way of euthanizing a reptile. Reptiles take much longer to die in the freezer than mammals due to their slower metabolism. I would never want to make a reptile suffer like that.

Also, I don't think severe deformities should be bred and/or sold. If I were to breed some pythons and find that one or both of the parents were passing on deformities, I would figure out which parent it is and stop breeding that snake, and I would either keep the deformed offspring or give them to loving homes as pets. We, as breeders, do have a responsibility for passing on only the most healthy of snakes as future breeders.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Sort of on topic. What are your opinions on people selling their deformed animals? There are a few ads on kingsnake now of people selling animals that are missing an eye. I personally cull deformed animals as soon as they are out of the egg.

---

Wow, i saw that add on kingsnake and i know who you are talking about.. Not personally, but he has delt with my 2 friends that are breeders.. I was surprised to see that add as well. As far as my friends (the breeders) are concerned, it shouldnt be allowed to be that way... They say yes its sometimes a hard decision but when you really care about the welfare of the animal and the entire genus as a whole, you dont let the seriously deformed ones out in public, where they may fall into the hands of someone who will breed it and pass on genetic problems..

I personally would find it hard to put down any animal but if its necessary i will. I had to put down an older painted turtle i had due to a blockage she had and she was suffering.. As for spiders.. I cant comment on that seeing as im getting a Bee.. But i will not be putting it to another spider or spider morph. I simply would not do that and risk creating snakes with serious problems.. Just my opinion..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Draigess

As for spiders.. I cant comment on that seeing as im getting a Bee.. But i will not be putting it to another spider or spider morph. I simply would not do that and risk creating snakes with serious problems.. Just my opinion..

---

Not really going to make a difference unfortunately. All Spiders are at least slightly tweaked. Sometimes it is so subtle that it's hard to notice. You'll have the chance of producing tweaked babies from pairing that bee with anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jglass38

Not really going to make a difference unfortunately. All Spiders are at least slightly tweaked. Sometimes it is so subtle that it's hard to notice. You'll have the chance of producing tweaked babies from pairing that bee with anything.

---

True. But i have read that if the wobble or spins, is noticable, the chances of it being even more noticable in the offspring can go up with each generation (if inbreeding). If the defects are not noticable in the parent snake then the babies are less likely to have a noticable defect. Im guessing this is just a theory as ive not seen any real evidence of breeding to prove this point.. But the bee im buying is very close to breeding size and shows no noticable signs of wobble or defect. So im hoping that will pas on to her babies..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Draigess

True. But i have read that if the wobble or spins, is noticable, the chances of it being even more noticable in the offspring can go up with each generation (if inbreeding). If the defects are not noticable in the parent snake then the babies are less likely to have a noticable defect. Im guessing this is just a theory as ive not seen any real evidence of breeding to prove this point.. But the bee im buying is very close to breeding size and shows no noticable signs of wobble or defect. So im hoping that will pas on to her babies..

---

Do you have a link to where you read that? I would guess you're right that it's just a theory. Best of luck with the breedings!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bundu Boy

A question that I would ask myself is

"Would it survive in the wild?"

If the answer is no then it is a candidate for euthanasia....

---

An albino would probably not live in the wild..... choose your words more carefully.

I totally agree with you mike, some babies were not meant to live...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hock3ymonk3y

An albino would probably not live in the wild..... choose your words more carefully.

---

I'm pretty sure you know what he meant. He meant a defect or deformity that would keep it from being able to successfully survive in the wild. :gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bevilla

Hi, talking about putting down, which are your methods? Which do you think is the most humain?

Thank you and sorry for hijack ur post

---

I know people who just put it in the freezer until its no longer alive. I personally dont do that. Being a reptile, i feel if its put in the fridge first its more humane. Puts them into a fast forced hibernation and they just fall asleep. I think putting them directly in the freezer would painful as the blood in their veins begins to freeze while they are still alive.. This is just the way i think of it but im sure many people will disagree..

As for people cutting eggs. I dont agree with that at all. At least one baby will be able to pip the egg itself. If not most or all of them. I dont think an egg should be cut until after the first couple pips. Then the "cutting" should not be a butcher job that opens up the egg completely. Only widening the slit the baby already made so it doesnt get stuck, and making a split slit in the eggs that have not pipped in case the baby lost an eggtooth. But never cutting open the entire top of the egg.

There is a breeder on my friends list on myspace that i was very disappointed in when i saw he was cutting eggs before the first pip just to have the babies out in time for the show.. Thats not right and bad business practice. Im glad this person made it public though. Now i know who NOT to buy from..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Draigess

As for people cutting eggs. I dont agree with that at all. At least one baby will be able to pip the egg itself. If not most or all of them. I dont think an egg should be cut until after the first couple pips. Then the "cutting" should not be a butcher job that opens up the egg completely. Only widening the slit the baby already made so it doesnt get stuck, and making a split slit in the eggs that have not pipped in case the baby lost an eggtooth. But never cutting open the entire top of the egg.

There is a breeder on my friends list on myspace that i was very disappointed in when i saw he was cutting eggs before the first pip just to have the babies out in time for the show.. Thats not right and bad business practice. Im glad this person made it public though. Now i know who NOT to buy from..

---

I don't understand exactly what your issue is with cutting. There is a big difference between a breeder that cuts eggs and one that cuts eggs and pulls the babies out before they are ready. I cut eggs. Every clutch, every time. I can guarantee you that the hatchlings won't come out until they are ready, regardless of what day I cut. I would never pull them out of the egg though.

Okay here is how I feel about the issue.

I think if the deformity makes the animal unable to eat, breathe, deficate or move the animal should be humanly euthanized. (Not frozen that is another whole thread in itself).

Here is my issue with deformities (and it will probably ruffle some feathers). I am sure that all of us can agree that defomities in ball pythons are more prevalant in certain morphs. Now if that is true, wouldn't that make most of the deformities "genetic"? I understand that there can be incubation issues but you can't say that all 8ball duck bills, carmel kinks, spider wobbles, missing and deformed eyes are all due to improper incubation.

Now most breeders on here are stating that they cull severly deformed animals, and all of us pretty much agree that the deformed animal should not be bred. Here is the question...What about the parents, grandparents and siblings of these animals.

If as stated before the deformed animal may pass on the trait, that means it aquired the trait in the first place from one or more of it's parents or grandparents, and that it's siblings may also carry the deformed trait hidden away in their genes. So unless you cull the entire line that produced the deformity you are adding possible carriers of deformities on to future generations.

In reality very VERY few people will do this, all breeders have money invested in their animals (no matter if it is a hobby or business). Unfortunatley it is par for the course when working with genetic mutations. I have heard the "morphs came from the wild" alot, but if you think about it ALL morphs are in one way or the other a mutation of the commonly occuring wild type ball python.

I personally don't have a problem with genetic mutation I find it extremely facinating and I LOVE breeding my ball pythons. I just wanted to share my opinion on the subject and I hope that no one feels I am attacking them in anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jglass38

I don't understand exactly what your issue is with cutting. There is a big difference between a breeder that cuts eggs and one that cuts eggs and pulls the babies out before they are ready. I cut eggs. Every clutch, every time. I can guarantee you that the hatchlings won't come out until they are ready, regardless of what day I cut. I would never pull them out of the egg though.

---

OK but do you cut before day 54? or closer to day 60? Im pretty sure this guy was cutting the eggs right around day 50. Im just not thinking thats a good idea. The runt i lost did stay in his egg for almost 3 days but he still did not absorb any of the yolk. I didnt cut his egg until after the other 2 had pipped on day 56 i believe.

How do you feel about the people who open up the entire top of the egg? To the point of actually removing most of the top of the egg? Ive seen pics people posted of this. Wouldnt that allow the yolk and to dry out too fast?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Draigess

OK but do you cut before day 54? or closer to day 60? Im pretty sure this guy was cutting the eggs right around day 50. Im just not thinking thats a good idea. The runt i lost did stay in his egg for almost 3 days but he still did not absorb any of the yolk. I didnt cut his egg until after the other 2 had pipped on day 56 i believe.

How do you feel about the people who open up the entire top of the egg? To the point of actually removing most of the top of the egg? Ive seen pics people posted of this. Wouldnt that allow the yolk and to dry out too fast?

---

I cut when I feel like it's safe to cut. Normally that is day 50-52 or so. I make a small flap in the egg. I get to satisfy my curiosity by seeing what is inside. I then put the eggs back in the incubator. Around day 56 or so I cut a larger opening. I haven't noticed anything drying out or babies that are small or dehydrated. All of them eat and shed normally. If I had concerns, I wouldn't do it. Cutting an egg correctly is not going to keep the animal from absorbing any nutrients. Trying to reposition an animal in the egg to see pattern or color or generally messing with it could cause problems. I think everyone should do whatever they feel comfortable with. If that means waiting until the first one pips, that is great. If it means cutting at day 48, that is cool too. I certainly wouldn't condemn someone for doing it. Where I draw the line is cutting and forcibly removing a hatchling from the egg before it's ready. If my egg cutting makes me a bad guy in someone's book then I believe they haven't looked around enough or read enough threads and seen what a real bad guy looks like. Someone who sends sick or poorly packaged animals. Someone that sends empty boxes or completely scams someone out of animals or money. Those are the bad guys in this hobby, not someone who cuts an egg before an arbitrary day, whether it's 54, 56, 58 or 60.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jglass38

Trying to reposition an animal in the egg to see pattern or color or generally messing with it could cause problems. Where I draw the line is cutting and forcibly removing a hatchling from the egg before it's ready.

---

Well at least we agree on something.

I don't breed snakes yet but within 2-3 years I will be.

I having nothing against culling animals when neccesary. If I end up ever producing an animal that simply doesn't thrive and has no "will" to do so it will end up in my fridge and then my freezer (and I'll probably cry like a baby when I do it).

As for selling animals with obvious defects (one eye, no eyes, minor- severe kinks) it is a very poor practice indeed. Even worse is they are offered cheaper making it convenient for irresponsible breeders to buy. I believe animals like this should either go to a good friend who wouldn't breed it, be kept, or be put down. By selling animals like this you are only risking it being bred by someone.

Spiders are an interesting one. Imho, a bit of wobbling/tweaked behavior is to be expected but I would never breed a spider who consistently shows me extreme wobbling, corkscrewing, spinning.

On a side note- I see nothing wrong with cutting eggs once one has pipped. The snake's will come out when they are ready on their terms.

Quote:

---

I cut when I feel like it's safe to cut. Normally that is day 50-52 or so. I make a small flap in the egg. I get to satisfy my curiosity by seeing what is inside. I then put the eggs back in the incubator. Around day 56 or so I cut a larger opening. I haven't noticed anything drying out or babies that are small or dehydrated. All of them eat and shed normally. If I had concerns, I wouldn't do it. Cutting an egg correctly is not going to keep the animal from absorbing any nutrients. Trying to reposition an animal in the egg to see pattern or color or generally messing with it could cause problems. I think everyone should do whatever they feel comfortable with. If that means waiting until the first one pips, that is great. If it means cutting at day 48, that is cool too. I certainly wouldn't condemn someone for doing it. Where I draw the line is cutting and forcibly removing a hatchling from the egg before it's ready. If my egg cutting makes me a bad guy in someone's book then I believe they haven't looked around enough or read enough threads and seen what a real bad guy looks like. Someone who sends sick or poorly packaged animals. Someone that sends empty boxes or completely scams someone out of animals or money. Those are the bad guys in this hobby, not someone who cuts an egg before an arbitrary day, whether it's 54, 56, 58 or 60.

---

I agree 100%!

I cut all my eggs at Day 52, and I have no moral angst about doing so. I've seen at another breeder's location, two perfectly formed babies, that were unable to pip their eggs that drowned in their eggs - and you could see, when their eggs were opened, how they had thrashed about so much, they had ripped all the blood vessels off the top of the egg.

To me, that seems much more cruel, to allow a baby to panic to death and drown when it's unable to pip its egg. That seems terribly inhumane to me.

Some might say - they may not have been intended to make it then. And maybe they were intended to make it. Who's to say that something about the artificial incubation process didn't make that egg just a bit too tough for that baby to come out.

I made a choice that day that I will cut all my eggs on Day 52. Pipped or not. The ONLY time I've pulled a baby out of the egg was when I saw that their umbilicus was twisted around their body. I got them enough out of the egg to untwist, and put them right back in the egg, where they stayed until they absorbed the yolk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kellysballs

Okay here is how I feel about the issue.
Now most breeders on here are stating that they cull severly deformed animals, and all of us pretty much agree that the deformed animal should not be bred. Here is the question...What about the parents, grandparents and siblings of these animals.

If as stated before the deformed animal may pass on the trait, that means it aquired the trait in the first place from one or more of it's parents or grandparents, and that it's siblings may also carry the deformed trait hidden away in their genes. So unless you cull the entire line that produced the deformity you are adding possible carriers of deformities on to future generations.

---

That seems a touch excessive, though, don't you think? Now I agree if it becomes a yearly thing. If the same pair is throwing eyeless, kinked, or otherwise "grossly" deformed babies every season then they should never be paired together again. If one of that pair keeps throwing deformed babies with other snakes, then that snake should be retired from breeding. I'd go so far as to say the retired snake should never be sold; it becomes the breeder's responsibility to keep that snake from ever having the chance of reproducing again.

Culling an entire line because of one deformed baby doesn't make sense to me. That one baby lost the genetic lottery and happened to get a mash of poor genes, or a complication in the egg, and so ended up with a bad spine (or whatever else). If the parents and all other siblings are healthy then it's obviously not a dominant defect getting thrown around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dalishar

Culling an entire line because of one deformed baby doesn't make sense to me. That one baby lost the genetic lottery and happened to get a mash of poor genes, or a complication in the egg, and so ended up with a bad spine (or whatever else). If the parents and all other siblings are healthy then it's obviously not a dominant defect getting thrown around.

---

Hmmm, not a snake but related.

I've been breeding rats on a small scale for years and gearing up for the last several months. I have a very standard policy which I will explain in a moment.

I can reach into any tub of rats I have bare handed, pull pinks, move fuzzies, remove adult by the body or tail and NEVER get bit.

I don't get bit because of my policy.

IF a rat bites me, it is then food. If it is a mother, her babies are food. Same for a male, bite-food.

Knock on wood, I can't remember the last time I had a rat bite me.

I have heard many tales of rats that bite from people who don't cull the biters.

It bears thought.

I have had prior animal breeding experience in breeding & culling. Holland Lops (which I breed for awhile have an AMAZINGLY high cull rate as the dwarf gene is homozygous lethal). There's an easy solution to reduce the 50% adv cull rate; use bigger does & the small typey bucks. You don't produce as many champs that way, but you do reduce the culls down to about 1 in 4. To have culling be such a normal event is one of the reasons I got out of rabbits.

Working with snakes, proper husbandry results in way less culls. Before I bred snakes I discussed with my herp vet who also keeps snakes & other reptiles, the best way to "put one to sleep" so I'd know. And freezing is the method I use here if need be.

I do pick my morphs based on what I think I can handle. I pass on T+ Albino projects although I love the morph. But even being selective, you get tangled babies, you get minor defects... and you get freezer pets as Kevin at NERD calls 'em. I've had 3 culls to date, but they all were for the best interests of the animal.

I will not hesitate to cull, I also will give an animal that has the ability to feed/function/defecate a chance. A local friend brought in a spider, a one-eyed snake that also had some kinking- "Can you help her?", he said.

I told him we could try. After 2 assist-feedings she defecated & peed. She also lost most of the kinking that was from being tangled. After 3 months of assist feeding she began to take FT off tongs on her own. Her name is Alli & she is his daughter's pet.

I will say Alli was in such bad shape that, had she hatched here, IDK... but helping someone else I did see 1st hand just how resilient these babies can be. It's given me a better idea of what can & can't heal. So if I think an animal has a chance I'll give it- but I won't let something suffer that has no chance either.

It's a tough call, but one as a breeder we all will have to face.

I think there's two things being discussed.
Culling and Mercy killing.
I will always agree with putting an animal down as a mercy.
Culling for perfection I disagree with. In other words, if a pastel isn't bright enough, or a albino isn't crisp enough, putting the baby in the freezer I think is wrong.
Culling for defects I can agree with. Especially defects that affect the spine. I will not say that YOU should cull your defective hatchlings. But I've culled some here, that would not live(even with special care).
I currantly have some kinked hatchlings. My miracle clutch was damaged. The same heat that caused the others to lay slugs, must have affected the 'good clutch' I got too. Out of 5 eggs, one was a train wreck, and culled immediately. One had the "stepped on" look on one spot midway. Two have tail tip kinks, and one looks fine. Right now I have a call in to the local vet university to see if anyone is interested in a kinked hatchling for study(either the frozen one or the still living one). If not, I may euthanize the severe one. The tail tips I'll either keep or give as pets, and the normal looking one MIGHT be sold.. IF he eats for a long time, and develops normally. But I happen to know there was a severe heat issue that caused other issues with other snakes at the same time. I don't have to wonder "Is it from mom or dad?"

So.. after I've rambled on.. I do agree with culling, when something's wrong.

Oh.. and normally I cut eggs after one pips. This clutch took so long that I cut the eggs, at day 61. The babys still took a week before they had all emerged. You can't rush them out of the egg, cutting or no.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by h00blah

i would probably do EVERYTHING in my power to keep my babies alive, bc if YOU yourself put your hard work, dedication, time, and sweat into raising those adults to breed, praying for fertilized eggs, incubating those eggs, monitoring them closely, then awaiting that adorable little BP head to poke its head at you and greet u, rite there, uve gotten attached to the animal and u WILL do wut u need to in order to save it.

---

Wow, no offense to you personally my friend, but in this quote I think you have pretty much summed up everything I am talking about to a T.

Why would you do whatever you have to in order to "save it?" Are you the only being in this situation that matters? hint... you have feelings... you feel pain.. you suffer... what about the snake?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

It is my first year breeding ball pythons and I'm guessing my issue with my hatchling contributed to your need to post this thread. So I feel I need to respond.

---

Don't flatter yourself. Although I must admit, you did remind me of the subject.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eventide

I believe in giving an animal every chance possible to live. Doesn't matter if the snake has one eye, no eyes, kinks--whatever. It's not the snake's fault it's deformed.

---

Another fine example of what this thread is all about. Not sure who said it but someone mentioned that natural selection is thrown out the window when snakes are intentionally bred. Your right... in the scheme of things it is not the snakes fault it's deformed.... it's the breeders fault. Exactly why it is the breeders responsibility to handle the problem they created.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kellysballs

I understand that there can be incubation issues but you can't say that all 8ball duck bills

---

Just curious as to why you chose to call out a particular breeder on this.... Keep in mind a many people here know this breeder personally. can you say the same?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Just curious as to why you chose to call out a particular breeder on this.... Keep in mind a many people here know this breeder personally. can you say the same?

---

I think they were referring to the cinny x black pastel cross and not 8Ball Pythons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Just curious as to why you chose to call out a particular breeder on this.... Keep in mind a many people here know this breeder personally. can you say the same?

---

Mike, another name for the Super Cinny/Black Pastel is the 8 Ball.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by briz

I think they were referring to the cinny x black pastel cross and not 8Ball Pythons.

---

See Above.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Another fine example of what this thread is all about. Not sure who said it but someone mentioned that natural selection is thrown out the window when snakes are intentionally bred. Your right... in the scheme of things it is not the snakes fault it's deformed.... it's the breeders fault. Exactly why it is the breeders responsibility to handle the problem they created.

---

Actually, it's not always the breeder's fault. Random mutations occur with some frequency; it doesn't have to be something passed down from one or both parents. It could just be that a particular baby lost the gene mutation lottery.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I think there's two things being discussed.
Culling and Mercy killing.
I will always agree with putting an animal down as a mercy.
Culling for perfection I disagree with. In other words, if a pastel isn't bright enough, or a albino isn't crisp enough, putting the baby in the freezer I think is wrong.
.

---

I don't know who in their right mind would cull a perfectly healthy baby for that reason anyway thats just absurd:weirdface.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

Hmmm, not a snake but related.

I've been breeding rats on a small scale for years and gearing up for the last several months. I have a very standard policy which I will explain in a moment.

I can reach into any tub of rats I have bare handed, pull pinks, move fuzzies, remove adult by the body or tail and NEVER get bit.

I don't get bit because of my policy.

IF a rat bites me, it is then food. If it is a mother, her babies are food. Same for a male, bite-food.

Knock on wood, I can't remember the last time I had a rat bite me.

I have heard many tales of rats that bite from people who don't cull the biters.

It bears thought.

---

I'll happily admit to being a touch dense. I think I understand your point, however.

If we cull anything that has a deformity, then ideally we'll end up with stock with no deformities at all (or in the case of rats, no nippy buggers). So basically a zero tolerance policy. I like it, too - I was fully intending on following something similar when I began breeding rats.

How do you adapt the same policy to snakes though?
Hopefully deformed males and females would never be bred to begin with. So if they throw one defective baby, do you kill otherwise perfectly healthy adults? Do you cull the entire clutch? What if it only showed up in a second or third clutch - do you then go after the other babies and destroy them too? Where's the line drawn?

For rats specifically (and I hope this isnt too far off topic) - if a male bites you, do you then destroy ANY babies sired by him? Or only if the mother does? Do you only cull the litters if you're bitten by the mother while they're still pinks / fuzzies? What if they're adults already, and have never shown themselves as aggressive / defensive biters? (wee, can't tell I'm horrendously ignorant about this, can you?)

I think my problem is intention, silly as that sounds. It makes sense to follow such a policy with rats, as they're meant for food for my snakes. I do not want to deal with food that bites / has defects. These snakes, however, are meant to be pets. As much as I hate to contribute to future deformed babies, I would not be willing to go to such extreme lengths with my pets as I would with my pet's food. There goes my rights to the "animal lover" title, right? :rolleyes:

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I apologize if I come off that way - I find this topic fascinating and would like to learn as much as possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kyote19

I don't know who in their right mind would cull a perfectly healthy baby for that reason anyway thats just absurd:weirdface.

---

Dog and cat breeders have been known to do this for generations. Drowning a perfectly healthy puppy because the coloring isn't proper, etc. While I don't personally know of a breeder that does it to ball pythons, it's equally possible, since I doubt they'd talk about it. But I brought it up becuase it's a practice in other species, even though those are more appealing cuddley fuzzy pets(to most public people).

What seems absurb to you might seem to be just plain quality control to them.

wow.....I never thought that this was true. Disgusting if it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Dog and cat breeders have been known to do this for generations. Drowning a perfectly healthy puppy because the coloring isn't proper, etc. While I don't personally know of a breeder that does it to ball pythons, it's equally possible, since I doubt they'd talk about it. But I brought it up becuase it's a practice in other species, even though those are more appealing cuddley fuzzy pets(to most public people).

What seems absurb to you might seem to be just plain quality control to them.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by briz

I think they were referring to the cinny x black pastel cross and not 8Ball Pythons.

---

LOL! thank you for the clarification on that!!!!! My apologies Kelly! :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eventide

Actually, it's not always the breeder's fault. Random mutations occur with some frequency; it doesn't have to be something passed down from one or both parents. It could just be that a particular baby lost the gene mutation lottery.

---

If you are breeding snakes... you know, choosing who breeds with who and actually forcing them together so they will breed.... it is safe to say that you are the one that created the baby. You get credit for that baby when it is the coolest new morph ever... you also get credit when it is a total trainwreck that needs to be put down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishmommy

wow.....I never thought that this was true. Disgusting if it is.

---

Oh yeah! Absolutely true. Especially mismarked poodles(ones that were parti-colored, despite it being the original color for poodles), mismarked boxers, white patched dobermans.. there used to be practically a list of pups that would be put down at birth if they were mismarked, because it was such a black mark against the sire/dam that they threw mismarked dogs.

Same with kittens, mismarked, or not close enough to show perfection, and they'd put them down.

Old school mentality was drown it at birth if it wasn't what you wanted. Unfortunately, it still holds true today, to a lesser and more hidden degree.

Sorry I took it a little off topic.

[QUOTE=wolfy-hound;1144621]Oh yeah! Absolutely true. Especially mismarked poodles(ones that were parti-colored, despite it being the original color for poodles), mismarked boxers, white patched dobermans.. there used to be practically a list of pups that would be put down at birth if they were mismarked, because it was such a black mark against the sire/dam that they threw mismarked dogs.

Same with kittens, mismarked, or not close enough to show perfection, and they'd put them down.

Old school mentality was drown it at birth if it wasn't what you wanted. Unfortunately, it still holds true today, to a lesser and more hidden degree.


australian shepards can be born all white deqaf and blind. A breeder thr3ew one out in the snow at my friends house instead of being responsible with it so i got her now her 5 years was amnazing but still seriously olets be responsible here (does that relate)

To Mike C. I was not "calling out a specific breeder" I was refering to the morph super cinny/super black pastel that is commonly refered to as an 8ball ball python. I was being lazy and not typing out the word eight.

Appology accepted Mike. Like I said I am not trying to attack just trying to help with a healthy debate. I have only had one instance of a deformed baby hatching out. I have spoke at length with my vet and two of my biology professors at stetson and the consensus is that it is a genetic defect.

Now I have taken steps to make sure that it does not happen again (I will not breed those two snakes together again), and I will make sure this baby never enters the breeding gene pool. However I am left with a very difficult dilema, what to do with the siblings and parents.

Some one stated that the hypothetical deformed baby "just lost the genetic lottery" but what that really means is most likely somewhere along that particular babies lineage one or more of it's parents, gparents...ect, carries the gene for what ever deformity has occured. With out extensive genetic testing there is no way to know. Think about breast cancer in humans, they now have a genetic test that will tell you if you posses the particular gene thought to cause it. 20 years ago this was unheard of.

I personally will not cull the entire line because they may carry a gene that might cause a deformity (most people do not). How do the rest of you feel about it, breeders or not. If you produced an animal that was deformed would you sell the siblings or parents? Would you allow the siblings to enter the breeding gene pool, either your own or another persons?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kellysballs

Appology accepted Mike. Like I said I am not trying to attack just trying to help with a healthy debate. I have only had one instance of a deformed baby hatching out. I have spoke at length with my vet and two of my biology professors at stetson and the consensus is that it is a genetic defect.

Now I have taken steps to make sure that it does not happen again (I will not breed those two snakes together again), and I will make sure this baby never enters the breeding gene pool. However I am left with a very difficult dilema, what to do with the siblings and parents.

Some one stated that the hypothetical deformed baby "just lost the genetic lottery" but what that really means is most likely somewhere along that particular babies lineage one or more of it's parents, gparents...ect, carries the gene for what ever deformity has occured. With out extensive genetic testing there is no way to know. Think about breast cancer in humans, they now have a genetic test that will tell you if you posses the particular gene thought to cause it. 20 years ago this was unheard of.

I personally will not cull the entire line because they may carry a gene that might cause a deformity (most people do not). How do the rest of you feel about it, breeders or not. If you produced an animal that was deformed would you sell the siblings or parents? Would you allow the siblings to enter the breeding gene pool, either your own or another persons?

---

just because you get one or more deformed babies does not mean its genetic it could be just incubation issues or even development issues with the eggs inside the mother

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kellysballs

Some one stated that the hypothetical deformed baby "just lost the genetic lottery" but what that really means is most likely somewhere along that particular babies lineage one or more of it's parents, gparents...ect, carries the gene for what ever deformity has occured. With out extensive genetic testing there is no way to know. Think about breast cancer in humans, they now have a genetic test that will tell you if you posses the particular gene thought to cause it. 20 years ago this was unheard of.

---

But not every deformity is genetic, i.e. not every deformity is something that was passed down from the parents. Some are completely random. Now, a mutation being "random" does not mean that it cannot be passed down with the offspring (doesn't mean that it can, either).

...and also what Nixer said. :)

EDIT: I will soon have some citations as to why freezing and/or refrigerating reptiles is inhumane and causes the reptiles great suffering.

i agree but some people just want all of there babys to live

Citations, as promised (from my vet tech friend):

Quote:

---

Quotes are from Reptile Medicine and Surgery, D. Mader, second edition, 2006

For reference the 2000 American Veterinary Medical Association Panel on Euthanasia was a panel formed of the foremost experts on reptile medicine and euthanasia in the country. If we can’t trust them, who do you trust?

Chapter 33

“The 2000 American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) Panel on Euthanasia has published several guidelines for euthanasia of reptiles”

“Rapid freezing, such as dipping in liquid nitrogen, is approved and effective in animals less than 40 grams. Larger species may not be rendered unconscious rapidly enough to prevent discomfort.”

“Reports have state that placement of a reptile in a conventional freezer is a viable technique for euthanasia (Frye, 1984). Cooper, Ewebank, and Rosenberg (1984) contest that the animals may experience pain as ice crystals form within the tissues and the skin. The AVMA Panel on Euthanasia does not consider this an acceptable or humane method for euthanasia, even if prior cooling is performed.”

American Veterinary Medical Association: 2000 Report of the AVMA panel on Euthanasia, Journal of the Veterinary Medical Association 218(5):669-696, 2001.

Frye FL: Eutahnasia, necropsy techniques and comparative histology of reptiles. In Hoff GL, Frye FL, Jacobson ER, editiors: Diseases of amphibians and reptiles, New York, 1984 Plenum Press.

Cooper JE, Ewebank R, Platt E., et al. Euthanasia of amphibians and reptiles, Potters Bar, England, 1989, Universities Federation for Animal Welfare.

---

It is against the law for vets to use freezing (other than liquid nitrogen as mentioned above) as a method for euthanasia.

Someone said this has been discussed before, and I don't mean for the thread to get too far off topic, but it was brought up.

Yeah, I have to say, the idea that freezing is a humane method of euthanasia for reptiles isn't borne out by any actual science. Freezing is a painful and relatively slow way to die. I would never freeze any animal to kill it.

If you have to euthanize a reptile, please do research on it first, and do so humanely.

I see no reason not to try to save hatchlings with minor to moderate deformities. Most of them will go to a pet home if they can be saved. Caramels with extremely severe kinks have shown to be viable and live normally, so what looks terrible on the surface may not actually be life-threatening.

These things happen--through chance, through incubator temperature accidents, etc. When they happen, we're responsible for dealing with the consequences. I don't think it is right to kill something automatically simply because it is aberrant. If it proves not to be viable, then yes--but if it can actually live, then why NOT save it?

Now, for the person who said they would not breed the parents of a deformed animal together again...while I can sympathize with the sentiment of not wanting to chance having another animal like that again, in truth, it might be better to do exactly that. By pairing the same animals again, you will be able to determine whether or not the defective gene DID come from those animals. If no further deformities arise after several such pairings, you can probably assume the parents are clean. That's important for their future, and the future of the affected baby's siblings.

I also think it's important for breeders to learn about and recognize the genes that can cause specific deformities, so that carriers CAN be identified. Now that there is a lineage database available, if people are honest, it may be possible to avoid crossing carriers of these problem genes. When lineage is tracked, it is not always necessary to eliminate an animal that carries a problem gene from breeding--it just means avoiding breeding it or its offspring to another carrier. We are a long way off from genetic testing for specific problem genes. These tests exist for other species (such as cattle), but I don't think there's an economic incentive yet to have them for ball pythons, even if they could be devised.

More openness about genetic problems could arise when more information about them is available--it will no longer be easy for breeders to simply claim ignorance when selling an animal with a possible hidden genetic problem. The high dollar values involved, and the lack of knowledge about the problem genes, encourages this at the moment. Hopefully that will not always be the case.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Don't flatter yourself. Although I must admit, you did remind me of the subject.

---

Hey, I didn't mean it in a bad way. I'm glad you posted this thread as it makes for a good discussion. I just knew I'd been posting a lot on my little hatchling and several people have been telling me to put him down but I keep trying to save him.

Citations, as promised (from my vet tech friend):

Quote:
Quotes are from Reptile Medicine and Surgery, D. Mader, second edition, 2006

For reference the 2000 American Veterinary Medical Association Panel on Euthanasia was a panel formed of the foremost experts on reptile medicine and euthanasia in the country. If we can’t trust them, who do you trust?

Chapter 33

“The 2000 American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) Panel on Euthanasia has published several guidelines for euthanasia of reptiles”

“Rapid freezing, such as dipping in liquid nitrogen, is approved and effective in animals less than 40 grams. Larger species may not be rendered unconscious rapidly enough to prevent discomfort.”

“Reports have state that placement of a reptile in a conventional freezer is a viable technique for euthanasia (Frye, 1984). Cooper, Ewebank, and Rosenberg (1984) contest that the animals may experience pain as ice crystals form within the tissues and the skin. The AVMA Panel on Euthanasia does not consider this an acceptable or humane method for euthanasia, even if prior cooling is performed.”

American Veterinary Medical Association: 2000 Report of the AVMA panel on Euthanasia, Journal of the Veterinary Medical Association 218(5):669-696, 2001.

Frye FL: Eutahnasia, necropsy techniques and comparative histology of reptiles. In Hoff GL, Frye FL, Jacobson ER, editiors: Diseases of amphibians and reptiles, New York, 1984 Plenum Press.

Cooper JE, Ewebank R, Platt E., et al. Euthanasia of amphibians and reptiles, Potters Bar, England, 1989, Universities Federation for Animal Welfare.
It is against the law for vets to use freezing (other than liquid nitrogen as mentioned above) as a method for euthanasia.

Someone said this has been discussed before, and I don't mean for the thread to get too far off topic, but it was brought up.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the above is a quote from a previous post that I could not use the quote feature of this site to copy



I'd like to see the law that says it's illegal.

Also, do you see that key word MAY?

That means they don't know for sure.

My guess is that an animal in pain would not sit still, even if it were cold. We've all seen snakes that were far too cold to be healthy moving quite well.

Short of taking a hammer and doing some skull crushing, I'll stick with what I, personally as well as the vet I've been using for many many years, think is a good method for killing those who need to be dead.

I don't know who the vets you quoted are nor do I know their affiliations. For all I know they're petaphiles or work for hsus.

You can ALWAYS find some expert who agrees with your stand, no matter which side of an issue you're on.

I've put animals in the freezer, positioned as comfortably as I can make their final minutes, come back hours later to find them frozen solid in the EXACT same position that I left them in. This says to me that there was no pain involved in the deep cold sleep I put them into.

I HAVE seen snakes writhing in pain. I have NOT seen this in my freezer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kyote19

I don't know who in their right mind would cull a perfectly healthy baby for that reason anyway thats just absurd:weirdface.

---

I've heard of one breeder (has a bad name in the industry) who puts all normal males in the freezer.

That is just horrible. My favorite female is a normal and I have to admit, I have a soft spot for my male normal rescue. (I might keep him)

Normal males may not be part of someone's breeding plans but that is no reason to kill them. That makes me angry and sad. :mad:

Interesting thread, I haven't read the whole thread yet so please excuse me if this has been covered already. My question is where do you draw the line?

Should I freeze this one? She seems healthy and active but she's missing an eye. Eyes on snakes are overrated so it probably shouldn't cause her any problems though I'll never be able to sell her.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...s/Trouser1.jpg

Should I have tried to save this one? It was born alive, had no eyes, a deformed jaw, and quite a bit of kinking and had the belly attached back to itself in a few places. I snapped some pics and put it in the freezer.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...s/deformed.jpg

How about this one? It's a normal male from one of my dinking around projects. This guy has some head rub from trying to test the limits of his shoe box. It'll likely disappear after several sheds, but it's going to make it very difficult to sell even though he eats well and has a great calm yet inquisitive personality. There are plenty of breeders that will stick healthy normal males in the freezer as a matter of course just because they're harder to sell and you can't make any money off of them so why waste the resources?

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...ns/Headrub.jpg

So what do you euthanize? What are the criteria and who makes the decisions? I'm also very active in the local reptile adoption program through our herp society. We have ball pythons coming in every month, and fortunately we've been able to find homes for all of them, but there are other species like green iguanas and Burmese pythons where we HAVE had to put down some individuals because we were not able to place them after many months. I can foresee a time where that may become necessary for ball pythons too.

If it's my opinion you'd be interested in hearing, this is it.

You're doing fine. I would most likely have done the same. Some of your questions are identical to mine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

I don't know who the vets you quoted are nor do I know their affiliations. For all I know they're petaphiles or work for hsus.

---

LMAo! Wes it is so fun reading your replies!!!! thanks for chiming in.

Mark my answer to your questions in my opinion.

The second one that is all jacked up... i would defiantely have put that one down because it obviously would never live a normal happy life.

The third one with the head sore. I would definately NOT put that one down. There is nothing wrong with that snake other then a little skin blemish. It will no doubt live and function like a normal BP its entire life. If you don't want it, it shouldn't be hard to find someone that will come take him from you for free.

The first one with the missing eye. That is a tricky one, and in a situation like that it should be up to the breeder and the breeders lifetime plan for the snake.

That said if it were mine, It would have been frozen... Not so much because of it being an ugly snake, but because I would always suspect possible other damage and / or discomfort. This is what i would think - what if that missing eye is because of an overall skull deformation? It wouldnt be too far stretched to consider the fact that something like that can cause pressure in the snakes head that is out of the ordinary. That pressure can certainly cause discomfort. What if every day of that snakes life it has HORRIBLE headaches as result? As long as it keeps eating, you would never know if it were suffering or not. That uncertainty for me would be enough reason to freeze.


And for those that think freezing is so inhumane... PLEASE share what in your opinion would be a MORE humane way of putting a hatchling down?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by monk90222

I've heard of one breeder (has a bad name in the industry) who puts all normal males in the freezer.

---

That breeder suck! You know there people out there that love snakes but can't afford a expensive morph and what something cheap like a Norm ball. Does this breeder not understand that if he does nt want them he can just sell them for 20 each and make a bit of money there? Wow if I could I would want to smack the breeder silly! Haha

Daniel

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Simpson Balls

That breeder suck! You know there people out there that love snakes but can't afford a expensive morph and what something cheap like a Norm ball. Does this breeder not understand that if he does nt want them he can just sell them for 20 each and make a bit of money there? Wow if I could I would want to smack the breeder silly! Haha

Daniel

---

How old are you?

I ask because if you are young, then your stupidity is understandable.

If you're old enough to know better, then either you have no knowledge of business or you are simply happy in your ignorance and should be treated accordingly.

15??? All I am saying is there are people who will take Male Norms. There is not need to freeze them unless you are a huge breeder.

Daniel

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Simpson Balls

15??? All I am saying is there are people who will take Male Norms. There is not need to freeze them unless you are a huge breeder.

Daniel

---

This also explains your significant lies about breeding and such when you first joined the site, as "Ball Python Expert" :8:

[QUOTE=Mike Cavanaugh;1145647] That pressure can certainly cause discomfort. What if every day of that snakes life it has HORRIBLE headaches as result? As long as it keeps eating, you would never know if it were suffering or not. That uncertainty for me would be enough reason to freeze.
[QUOTE]


Isn't saying a snake can have a headache kinda the same thing as saying that animal can be a sweetheart? Do we even know if these animals have the capacity to have headaches? Seems like a bit of anthropomorphizing to me.... :)

If we get a perfectly normal BP, but he's not eating, are we to assume that the temp in his enclosure is off? That he may be stressed by his surroundings? Or that he has internal damage?

Fact is, we judge a lot of what we do based on how our animals are eating. If they are eating, it's a good sign and means all your temps are correct, he's not stressed, etc. Can't we assume the same in a snake that doesn't have an eye?

Guess that's my judgement :oops: