So what's the consensus on Spider x Spider?

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

On an unrelated note, at about 16:10 they mention "Don't go into your breeding season if your female is colossal. You want to feed trigger." They talk about how their huge 3500g females would never build follicles because they wouldn't trigger the process with food. What does this mean?

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When the female is at a healthy weight and starts to build follicles, it will trigger more of a food response as she is wants to build some fat reserves to sustain herself through the breeding season. In the wild, when they are close to ovulation they probably don't eat until the eggs they have been incubating hatch.

back when breeders like Brian, Kevin, and the other pioneering BP breeders were starting out, there really wasn't that wealth of knowledge on breeding these animals in captivity that there is today, so they were figuring a lot of this out as they were going a long based on what they knew of breeding other python species

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Originally Posted by ajmreptiles

When the female is at a healthy weight and starts to build follicles, it will trigger more of a food response as she is wants to build some fat reserves to sustain herself through the breeding season. In the wild, when they are close to ovulation they probably don't eat until the eggs they have been incubating hatch.

back when breeders like Brian, Kevin, and the other pioneering BP breeders were starting out, there really wasn't that wealth of knowledge on breeding these animals in captivity that there is today, so they were figuring a lot of this out as they were going a long based on what they knew of breeding other python species

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So if I understand correctly, you want to keep your female at a healthy weight (not too large or small) so that you can feed her consistently around breeding season, as giving her food triggers follicular growth. So perhaps the breeders in the video were not feeding their females as much because they didn't need the food as often because they were already so large or the snakes were refusing because of already being overweight.

there are a bunch of triggers that breeders like Kevin and Brian use to educe strong folicular growth
Brian often talks about
Temperature (the slight cool down in temp but not nearly as drastic as colubrid hibernation)
copulation
food
and sometimes time of year
there's one other I believe but off the top of my it escapes me.

at the end of the day take their wisdom along with may others here to find out what works best for your animals.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixGate

Okay, so I'm curious now. If Spider x Spider pairings haven't produced a super spider, then how is it that the babies only inherit one copy of the gene? Statistically, there should have been some super spiders in there. Maybe there's something about the gene that simply prevents a zygote from thriving before it ever becomes an egg? I've had enough college and biology classes to think that logically, this shouldn't happen. There should have been some super spiders in all those experiments. The same thing applies to pinstripes.

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I'm coming late to this thread, but I don't think the quote was answered adequately.

Statistically, a spider x spider mating should produce some super spiders among the babies. Maybe there's something about the gene that simply kills a super spider zygote either before or shortly after the eggs are laid, long before hatching time. Maybe those dead eggs are simply lost in the shuffle among dead eggs from all causes. I've never expected a 100% hatch rate with my snake eggs. IMO, if everything is right, any rate over 80% is acceptable.

http://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~mcclean/...el/mendel5.htm

The above link discusses dominant yellow, a lethal mutant gene in mice. The genetics of the spider gene may be similar, even if the physiology is different.

For what it's worth, I do not think enough statistics have been collected for a consensus about the spider gene to be reached. I have never made a spider x spider mating because I've never had the snakes. But I would have no hesitation making a spider x spider mating. I have made that sort of matings with dominant lethal mutant genes in zebra finches and ringneck doves.

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Originally Posted by paulh

I'm coming late to this thread, but I don't think the quote was answered adequately.

Statistically, a spider x spider mating should produce some super spiders among the babies. Maybe there's something about the gene that simply kills a super spider zygote either before or shortly after the eggs are laid, long before hatching time. Maybe those dead eggs are simply lost in the shuffle among dead eggs from all causes. I've never expected a 100% hatch rate with my snake eggs. IMO, if everything is right, any rate over 80% is acceptable.

http://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~mcclean/...el/mendel5.htm

The above link discusses dominant yellow, a lethal mutant gene in mice. The genetics of the spider gene may be similar, even if the physiology is different.

For what it's worth, I do not think enough statistics have been collected for a consensus about the spider gene to be reached. I have never made a spider x spider mating because I've never had the snakes. But I would have no hesitation making a spider x spider mating. I have made that sort of matings with dominant lethal mutant genes in zebra finches and ringneck doves.

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The spider gene has been around since what 1999? Kevin I am guessing has done 100s if not more spider x spider breedings alone. Not to mention all the other breeders that have done it. All these years I have heard of one white snake that was dead in the egg. Which I have a feeling was just undeveloped. I have seen those a couple times myself with no spider involved. I think there is plenty of info out there to debunk the myth of spider x spider being lethal. We figured out the other morphs being lethal quick. Like champ x champ, HGW x HGW, etc......

the consensus is we are at a stand still in the debate.

There are scattered reports of more than expected slugs less than expected eggs, a couple white snakes. but nothing you can draw a solid conclusion off of. Any slugs or less than expect eggs or white snakes could be excused to "it happens" so you're never going to prove anything that way anyways. Then you have claims of 1209483897253247859 spider x spider breedings, only a handful are actually reported and none of them try to prove out a super spider, to prove the gene to be dominant. If you want to claim its not lethal you have to get an alive super spider or explain why its not lethal but also can't happen.

so simple answer is we don't know and there really hasn't been new information in years

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

the consensus is we are at a stand still in the debate.

There are scattered reports of more than expected slugs less than expected eggs, a couple white snakes. but nothing you can draw a solid conclusion off of. Any slugs or less than expect eggs or white snakes could be excused to "it happens" so you're never going to prove anything that way anyways. Then you have claims of 1209483897253247859 spider x spider breedings, only a handful are actually reported and none of them try to prove out a super spider, to prove the gene to be dominant. If you want to claim its not lethal you have to get an alive super spider or explain why its not lethal but also can't happen.

so simple answer is we don't know and there really hasn't been new information in years

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How many breedings will it take to prove it? Slugs don't mean anything a large amount of infertile eggs would probably though. A spider x spider statistically would be what 25% supers? I think there would be a lot of discussion if there was only 75% of spider x spider clutches surviving. I have only done a few myself never saw anything different about them but that is only a small amount for myself. Why would I or anyone else report their findings? I thought most thought of this as a myth.

So I guess it's safe to say that I can probably breed a python to spider in it with another python with spider in it and not expect anything awful to happen just because the parents both have spider in them.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

So I guess it's safe to say that I can probably breed a python to spider in it with another python with spider in it and not expect anything awful to happen just because the parents both have spider in them.

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I think it's safe to say that, yes.

Even if it isn't harmful, it isn't usually a particularly productive combination. Say I wanted queenbees when I currently have a male lesser bee and a female bumblebee. I could get my queenbees from breeding the two, but in the end I think it would be a more productive use of my female to put her to a different male and think about the queenbees in a later season. Since it's reasonable to assume at this point that super spiders don't exist, why would I double up spider genes when I have other options available? My males breeding potential as a two-gene animal are essentially being thrown away. I suppose I have increased odds of spider combos, but it still isn't enough to justify the pairing in my head when I have more appealing choices to pursue (my cinnapin or my calico pastel are certainly much more attractive mates for this girl!).