Caramel VS Ultramel

oh cool, thanks :)

i also found images on vin russos website.

it really looks like a lavender albino or a candino. but if you would breed it to either of those, you would get normal-looking triple hets :rolleyes:

back to topic.... if you can get your hands on one of these caramillos, that would be quite something. its quite an unusual double recessive project. and im sure you know how hard it is to reach the first visual double recessive when you start a double recessive project from scratch. now that i have seen the pictures, it sounds like quite an opportunity to me.

I'm concerned about investing and being stuck with a snake that produces kinked offsprings. I really like the ultramel though. How much do they usually go for these days? The seller gave me a really good price so either he's hooking me up big time or the value dropped recently.

Search for threads on female caramels and fertility.

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Originally Posted by digizure

I'm concerned about investing and being stuck with a snake that produces kinked offsprings. I really like the ultramel though. How much do they usually go for these days? The seller gave me a really good price so either he's hooking me up big time or the value dropped recently.

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That is the exact reason I will not add caramel to my collection, even though I'm recessive-gene focused. The cheapest visual ultramel female hatchling I have seen recently was $2k on KS, hets for $300-500. But with people advertising them as ultramel/crider out there I would be cautious about who I purchase from since it looks like those are two incompatible lines (kind of like SK axanthic v. VPI axanthic v. MJ axanthic, they're all black and white but incompatible with each other) and you would want to be certain of which one you're actually getting.

The seller is asking $950 for 100g ultramel. The crider is part of caramel line right?

I would go with a female ultramel not a double het, there is a reason why people are walking away from caramel and their combos ;)

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Originally Posted by digizure

I'm concerned about investing and being stuck with a snake that produces kinked offsprings. I really like the ultramel though. How much do they usually go for these days? The seller gave me a really good price so either he's hooking me up big time or the value dropped recently.

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if you would breed a male ultramel to the caramillo, you would get a clutch of ultramels, and all are 100% het caramel as a bonus. the issues only happen in the homozygous form, not in hets, at least i have never heared that BPs that are just het for caramel would have any issues at all.


i dont know anything about the female sub-fertility issue in caramel apart from that it exists, if thats really a problem and affects many female caramels, that would be a real deal-breaker.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I would go with a female ultramel not a double het, there is a reason why people are walking away from caramel and their combos ;)

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i think we are talking about a visual caramillo, not just a double het.

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Originally Posted by digizure

The seller is asking $950 for 100g ultramel. The crider is part of caramel line right?

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Crider is a recessive gene that looks nearly identical to ultramel, and up until recently most people thought they were just two names for the same thing or two allelic but compatible genes (like coral glow/banana or butter/lesser), but it looks like they are actually not compatible with each other (like the separate axanthic lines) since a 2013 pairing (the only one I've heard of) of a visual ultramel male x het cruder female resulted in 9 eggs with zero visuals http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...tramels-3.html. Since Russo was apparently working with the Crider line, and is the one who produced the Camarillos, I would assume that this animal's ancestors came out of his stable at some point and are therefore Criders rather than Ultramels. At the very least you will want to clarify this point with the seller, especially since that is a VERY attractive price (which is what also makes me think Crider).

Apparently I do have an account with photobucket. :) I forgot I signed up a while ago. Here's a picture of the ultramel I'm talking about.

[IMG]http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/...sd825476c.jpeg[/IMG]

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Originally Posted by Badgemash

Crider is a recessive gene that looks nearly identical to ultramel, and up until recently most people thought they were just two names for the same thing or two allelic but compatible genes (like coral glow/banana or butter/lesser), but it looks like they are actually not compatible with each other (like the separate axanthic lines) .... (shortened)...

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thats really interesting.

but then: why not still go for it? as long as you know what you have, whats the problem with working with a smaller line that does the same things, if its so much cheaper? like with axanthic, different people work with different lines, and working with a smaller line is fine and its about the resulting optics. and people argue which lines of axanthic look the best. and for each line, there are people working with it.

so, even if they look almost the same but are incompatible (i am not sure yet, there does not seem to be much solid data), why not still go for it?

and now back to the (less popular) caramel: ok it has issues. and so has the caramillo, because its both ultramel and caramel. but the caramillo looks awesome. if it would not be for the issues with caramel, the caramillo would still be a rather unusual double recessive project, but the issues call it into question. now if crider has no issues, why not attempt a double recessive crider + ultramel? that would not be for everyone because it would probarbly look like candino or lavender albino or something, just with different genetics. but still, the option is there, so if you, by accident, produce a clutch of double hets instead of visuals, it would not be all that bad. you could still get them sold to others that may want to try ultramel + crider, or go for it yourself. but then there is the still real possibility that they are compatible, or even the same, after all. in which case, no problem at all.


now you need to see if you can verify which one it really is, ultramel or crider, and if its crider you need to figure out if maybe you want it anyway.


and then, just to make things more complicated, i need to throw in / randomly mention monarch:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/monarch/ <--- can someone explain what im looking at?

its really a lazy attempt to 1up the game and turn the caramel vs ultramel thread, which has already turned into a caramel vs ultramel vs crider thread, into a caramel vs ultramel vs crider vs monarch thread. if that makes sense :) :oops: